General Discussion

struggle4progress

(118,282 posts)

81. Let us get the facts right, so we know what we are actually discussing, before we consider

Sat Jul 6, 2013, 04:15 PM

Jul 2013

what abstract principles may be involved

For example, was the plane searched, or not searched in Vienna? Reports have been wildly conflicting

Evo Morales’s controversial flight over Europe, minute by heavily disputed minute
By Max Fisher
Published: July 3, 2013 at 1:58 pm
... Bolivian statements all seem to agree that the plane was searched by Austrian officials while in Vienna. But some – though not all – have hinted that they may not have agreed to the search. The country’s UN ambassador called the search illegal and an act of aggression ... According to Austrian statements, flight FAB-001 requested permission to land in Vienna because the pilots believed they might not have had sufficient fuel. Austrians say they searched the plane with Morales’ permission and checked the passports of all passengers, but called this “routine” ...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/07/03/evo-morales-controversial-flight-over-europe-minute-by-heavily-disputed-minute/

Edward Snowden saga: Bolivia accuses Europe of 'kidnapping' Bolivian president in forcing Evo Morales' plane to land in Vienna
Shaun Walker, Heather Saul
Moscow
Wednesday 03 July 2013
... <Austrian> Deputy Chancellor Michael Spindelegger said that President Evo Morales had agreed to the inspection ...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/edward-snowden-saga-bolivia-accuses-europe-of-kidnapping-bolivian-president-in-forcing-evo-morales-plane-to-land-in-vienna-8682610.html

Audio purportedly from inside the cockpit of Bolivian President Evo Morales’s flight
By Max Fisher, Published: July 3, 2013 at 12:09 pm
... Austrian officials said they conducted a routine search of the plane and passport check. But the Bolivian narrative appears to be contradicted by European officials, some of whom have said Morales’s plane always had permission to enter their airspace ...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/07/03/audio-purportedly-from-inside-the-cockpit-of-bolivian-president-evo-moraless-flight/

Bolivia says president's plane was not searched in Austria
July 03, 2013|Reuters
LA PAZ (Reuters) - Bolivian President Evo Morales' plane was not searched while the leftist leader was stranded in Vienna, the Bolivian defense minister said on Wednesday, contradicting Austrian authorities' statements that a police officer boarded the plane with Morales' permission. Defense Minister Ruben Saavedra said no one boarded the presidential aircraft - presumably to search for fugitive U.S. intelligence analyst Edward Snowden - because Morales refused them entry ...
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-07-03/news/sns-rt-us-usa-security-latinamerica-bolivia-20130703_1_bolivia-president-evo-morales-plane

Only Bolivians aboard Morales plane in Vienna -Austria
Source: Reuters - Wed, 3 Jul 2013 09:46 AM
... "Our colleagues from the airport had a look and can give assurances that no one is on board who is not a Bolivian citizen," Spindelegger added, saying rumours that Snowden might be on board were untrue ...
http://www.trust.org/item/20130703085721-1zdyp

Snowden not on Morales jet in Vienna
Agence France-Presse
July 3, 2013 05:01
... Austria insisted Wednesday that US fugitive intelligence leaker Edward Snowden was not on board Bolivian President Evo Morales's jet, which was diverted to Vienna overnight, but said it did not search the plane ...
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/130703/snowden-not-morales-jet-vienna-0

Snowden rumors temporarily ground Bolivian president's plane
By Catherine E. Shoichet. Holly Yan and Laura Smith-Spark, CNN
July 4, 2013 -- Updated 0258 GMT (1058 HKT)
... Austrian officials confirmed that Snowden was not aboard after Morales allowed an Austrian airport police officer onto his plane for a "voluntary check," Interior Ministry spokesman Karl-Heinz Grundboeck said ...
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/03/world/americas/bolivia-plane-snowden/

Morales back in Bolivia after plane drama over Snowden
Bolivian leader describes incident as ‘an open provocation toward a continent ’
Thu, Jul 4, 2013, 11:16
... Austrian deputy chancellor Michael Spindelegger said Mr Morales personally denied that Mr Snowden was aboard his jet and agreed to a voluntary inspection ...
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/morales-back-in-bolivia-after-plane-drama-over-snowden-1.1452589

Morales back in Bolivia after plane drama over Snowden
Daniel Ramos Reuters
10:49 a.m. EDT, July 4, 2013
... Austrian Deputy Chancellor Michael Spindelegger said Morales personally denied that Snowden was aboard his jet and agreed to a voluntary inspection ... Bolivian Defense Minister Ruben Saavedra said Morales' plane was not searched because Morales had refused Austrian authorities entry ...
http://www.courant.com/news/nation-world/sns-rt-us-usa-security-snowden-20130627,0,4945158.story

Evo Morales Plane Incident: S. American Heads of State Demand Apology
July 5, 2013 | Posted by ABS Staff
... Austrian authorities searched Morales’ plane for Snowden, but found no stowaways on board, Austria’s deputy chancellor has said. ‘An act of aggression and violation of international law’ is how Bolivia‘s U.N. envoy described Austria’s decision to search the Bolivian presidential jet for NSA leaker ...
http://atlantablackstar.com/2013/07/05/evo-morales-plane-incident-s-american-heads-of-state-demand-apology/

Bolivia Threatens U.S. Embassy Closing After Snowden Search
By Nathan Gill - Jul 5, 2013 12:18 PM ET
... The incident led the plane to make an emergency landing in Vienna after a fuel gauge stopped working correctly, Morales said ...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-07-05/bolivia-threatens-u-s-embassy-closure-after-search-for-snowden.html

Venezuela Questions Relations with Spain Following Bolivian Plane Incident
Published at 9:08 am EST, July 5, 2013
... The Bolivian presidential aircraft spent 13 hours on the ground in Vienna as Austrian authorities searched the plane for former U.S. intelligence contractor Edward Snowden ...
http://www.hispanicallyspeakingnews.com/latino-daily-news/details/venezuela-questions-relations-with-spain-following-bolivian-plane-incident/25623/

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Suppose a foreign leader had Osama bin Laden in her plane [View all] MannyGoldstein Jul 2013 OP

he committed mass murder, so yes, asking other countries... allin99 Jul 2013 #1

Moot point. First of all, it may already have happened, BUT BUSHCO was never interested rustydog Jul 2013 #2

Of course. We were *at war* with OBL. Sorry to drag law into this, but it matters cthulu2016 Jul 2013 #3

Hell Yes.. we would get Bin Laden Peacetrain Jul 2013 #4

the end would not justify the means. We are a country of laws , without them we are nothing. bowens43 Jul 2013 #10

Tell that to the thousands killed by Bin Laden Peacetrain Jul 2013 #11

This is the exact argument/excuse the neocons used to invade Iraq AgingAmerican Jul 2013 #13

Bull Hockey.. Peacetrain Jul 2013 #14

Let me add this to my own post.. specifics Peacetrain Jul 2013 #15

The money laundering operations in Iraq and Afghanistan AgingAmerican Jul 2013 #22

Off topic much? the question was specific.. Peacetrain Jul 2013 #25

My answer is specific to YOUr position AgingAmerican Jul 2013 #26

The United Nations had been trying to get Bin Laden out of Afghanistan since 1999 Peacetrain Jul 2013 #29

Sorry, I don't buy into AgingAmerican Jul 2013 #33

Okay.. I do not do na na nah boo boo Peacetrain Jul 2013 #44

Upwards of 1M Iraqis killed. This has nothing at all to do with OBL, however. DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #37

The whole thread is about OBL Peacetrain Jul 2013 #41

Brace yourself. Have a comfortable seat. I have something to tell you. DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #43

Who said anything about Iraq having anything to do with 9/11 Peacetrain Jul 2013 #45

You did, in post 15 DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #48

Clean your glasses my friend.. I did NOT Peacetrain Jul 2013 #49

Ok. I believe you, but I still don't understand your original point DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #51

My original post Peacetrain Jul 2013 #54

Bin Laden was never indicted for 9/11. Mainly because he didn't matter and while I think sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #68

The UN was trying to extract OBL out of Afghanistan starting in 1999 Peacetrain Jul 2013 #76

I am more than familiar with the entire history of Bin Laden. He took responsibility for the sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #77

200 people killed at an embassy in 98 is hardly pointless Peacetrain Jul 2013 #80

Yes, I remember that and it was considered to be fake at the time. sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #84

I am not sure what you are saying.. so before I misconstrue your intent Peacetrain Jul 2013 #85

I would have arrested him for what he was indicted for, the Embassy Bombings. There sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #91

Let me add a second post to this sabrina.. Peacetrain Jul 2013 #86

Yes, he should have been arrested, charged and tried like anyone else who commits sabrina 1 Jul 2013 #87

I appreciate what you are saying and agree with you .. Peacetrain Jul 2013 #89

depends, NM_Birder Jul 2013 #5

Suppose a foreign leader had georgy bush in her plane. Arctic Dave Jul 2013 #6

If There Was A Warrant... KharmaTrain Jul 2013 #21

+1 nt Zorra Jul 2013 #75

Me too. I've been saying that for years. greatauntoftriplets Jul 2013 #79

As justified as another country doing the same for certain high ranking ZombieHorde Jul 2013 #7

bogus comparison Enrique Jul 2013 #8

Of course it would NOT have been justified. bowens43 Jul 2013 #9

No Marrah_G Jul 2013 #12

absolutely, and I will go even farther and say we would be justified in shooting it down arely staircase Jul 2013 #16

You'd shoot down Angela Merkel's plane? Seriously? For harboring/ferrying a fugitive? Whoa. cherokeeprogressive Jul 2013 #31

Angela Merkel hanging with bin Laden? arely staircase Jul 2013 #46

And you call Mullah Omar a "world leader"? cherokeeprogressive Jul 2013 #59

I would call him a "foreign leader" as per the OP arely staircase Jul 2013 #60

I really don't think that's what the OP had in mind. cherokeeprogressive Jul 2013 #63

Why doesn't that count? arely staircase Jul 2013 #64

"her" cherokeeprogressive Jul 2013 #65

so it has to be a female foreign leader? arely staircase Jul 2013 #66

Take your complaint to the OP. cherokeeprogressive Jul 2013 #67

no complaint, I just don't interpret the OP as limiting the scenario to the less than 10 percent arely staircase Jul 2013 #69

Suppose Obama was riding in Merkel's plane... HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #34

in that scenario they would have to consider the wisdom of it arely staircase Jul 2013 #47

Ahhh, the "might makes right" argument. OK. HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #50

In a war? Yes. arely staircase Jul 2013 #53

Post removed Post removed Jul 2013 #17

Even though it was carried out by Saudis AgingAmerican Jul 2013 #23

Wow. I guess I missed your openly advocating wiping out over 3,000,000 innocent people. cherokeeprogressive Jul 2013 #30

You should really go somewhere else with your mass murder fantasies DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #39

sick Marrah_G Jul 2013 #72

If a foreign leader had OBL on a plane with him or her knowing how he was, the plane bluestate10 Jul 2013 #18

That depends. Which party is the president a member of? QC Jul 2013 #19

... idwiyo Jul 2013 #28

Diplomatic Privelege is not a joke. Savannahmann Jul 2013 #20

Let us get the facts right, so we know what we are actually discussing, before we consider struggle4progress Jul 2013 #81

Vienna Conventions Savannahmann Jul 2013 #82

According to at least one of the articles in my prior post, Morales himself cited struggle4progress Jul 2013 #83

Didn't we give some Saudi's a ride home after 9/11? (nt) The Straight Story Jul 2013 #24

Yes, but obviously we only helped The Good Bin Ladens DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2013 #40

Absolutely not. Diplomatic plane, specifically when it's a leader's of the foreign country plane idwiyo Jul 2013 #27

Some of the replies in this thread are NOTHING LESS THAN BREATHTAKING. cherokeeprogressive Jul 2013 #32

Yep. DU has been infiltrated by bloodthirsty totalitarian fascists. HooptieWagon Jul 2013 #35

+1 magellan Jul 2013 #36

"Appalling" and "clueless" are the words I'd use. n/t winter is coming Jul 2013 #55

welcome to the big tent frylock Jul 2013 #78

Are you attempting to compare Snowden to one of the greatest terrorists of the 20th/21st century? Gravitycollapse Jul 2013 #38

Once again, you make comparisons jazzimov Jul 2013 #42

Suppose they had Adolph Hitler? BainsBane Jul 2013 #52

But Mother Teresa is flying the plane! arely staircase Jul 2013 #56

In that case BainsBane Jul 2013 #57

Well, according to Christopher Hitchens, who is also dead, shooting down msanthrope Jul 2013 #70

to complicate matters, Hitchens is on the plane too arely staircase Jul 2013 #71

Hitchens is on!!! Shoot the fucker down. nt msanthrope Jul 2013 #73

Yes. He was responsible for the deaths of many innocent people, and the probability that he Zorra Jul 2013 #58

So how many people did he kill Art_from_Ark Jul 2013 #62

I have absolutely no idea. nt Zorra Jul 2013 #74

Apples and Oranges Aerows Jul 2013 #61

No. It would constitute an act of war. WinkyDink Jul 2013 #88

No, but why would they do that anyway? Rex Jul 2013 #90