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Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
Sat Apr 27, 2013, 01:20 PM Apr 2013

Why we lost the gun debate in the Senate, and why we'll keep losing it. [View all]

We make the catastrophic mistake of not researching our issues. Oh we do a little research. We constantly bandied about the poll that showed 90% of the people were in favor of more background checks. But we did not go beyond that. It was painfully evident while this debate was going on in Congress, in the Media, and in small groups all over the nation.

The opponents wrapped themselves in the Second Amendment. We could have easily educated them with a couple days to research our arguments, but we didn't bother. For example, we could have quoted Alexander Hamilton in the Federalist Papers. We could have pointed out that Hamilton said that the Government must command the Militia. But we didn't bother with that argument, all we did was bandy about the same tired statistic, one that nobody on the fence believed in their hearts. One that they questioned being the right thing, even if they themselves wanted it.

When questioned about the proposals and their effect on the Second Amendment, we could have highlighted the Supreme Court decisions that upheld the limitations on civilian ownership of machine guns. Instead, we let far too many use shouted slogans about just banning the guns to enunciate our argument.

We could have answered constitutional questions with discussions on the meaning of the Amendments as outlined in writings of the time, opinions of the great Justices in history. We didn't. When Senator Feinstien was questioned on the effect of her proposed ban on the Second Amendment. Her reply was to denounce the questioner, because it was insulting to think that a woman who served in Congress for so long would not take into consideration the constitution. She didn't answer the question, she didn't address the Constitutional question that would become paramount in so many people's minds. She could have given a good answer, if she didn't have any quotes in her bag that would do. She could have said that questions on the application of the constitution for legislation are better decided by those who have demonstrated an understanding of the nuances of that document the Courts. She could have tossed out an insult about how Senator Cruz didn't have the background to debate the issue if she wanted.

We didn't read the tea leaves. We didn't read those polls and see that 4% of the population considered guns to be the most important issue facing the nation. We didn't debate the questions. Instead we brought forth a parade of survivors, of victims, and of those who were affected by gun violence. However after a few victims, it loses its effectiveness on people. The first one is good, and gets the message across. The second one is OK, and the third one is fine. But after that, you start getting into the statistics that don't matter to people. Remember Stalin correctly pegged it when he said one death is a tragedy, a million are a statistic.

Granted we needed to do that, but the parade of victims should never have been the cornerstone of our presentation.

So who needs to lead the effort next time, assuming there is a next time. Whomever leads it, will need to be well read on the founders. Whomever leads the charge will need to know the constitutional questions forward and backward, and be able to discuss it intelligently, and most importantly, with brevity. Because only by pointing out the history that isn't that the Right Wing uses to win the debates, with actual facts, and quotes from the authors in question, can we hope to win.

We won't do that of course. It's easier to shout shame on you. It's easier to make threats we can't hope to follow through on. Remember the Republicans redrew the congressional district maps after the 2010 census. It gave them enough safe seats that barring a major political shift in those regions, there is little hope of taking those seats from them.

We ignored the points that the RW was making. Those points were ones that we should have addressed. We could have come up with a good answer to the claim that the bill did nothing to prevent a nut from getting a gun. That point was very damaging to our side when it was pointed out that basically all the gunmen in the last several mass shootings were either seeing a psychiatrist, or had been referred to one. One Psychiatrist even gave the name of the gunman to police BEFORE he murdered anyone. We answered with the same statistic. We needed to pass this bill because 90% of the people support it. We murdered our own cause, before it could gain any hope of passing.

Statistics have their place in the argument, but it can't be the whole of your factual information regarding the argument. At the same time, the administration was bumbling the Drone argument from the nut Ron Paul's son the Senator. At the same time, mainstream news was starting to question why the Department of Homeland Security needed more than 1 billion rounds of ammunition.

We lost, the nation lost, and we'll continue to lose. Because we don't put forth the effort to research our issues before we take the national stage. We know what the truth is, but we can't prove it in a debate. After the vote, it's too late. So we're going to get revenge in 2014. Only we won't. Those Senators who voted against it are either retiring, or essentially safe with the incumbents advantage. Especially when we realize that only 4% of the population thinks that this is one of the most important issues facing the nation.

Notice, that the statistic was not the foundation of the post, but only a part of the larger argument. The RW was able to bring distrust of the Government into the discussion with the billion bullets for Homeland Security distraction. They were able to bring drones in, and get people talking about when, or if, the Government will use Drones on American Citizens in the United States. What were we doing? We were chanting 90% and pointing to the victims of guns.

That is how we lost, and why we'll keep losing in the future. Because we don't bother debating the RW people, and we don't tell them that the question is stupid, and then showing how the question is obviously stupid to an educated individual.

93 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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do you truly believe the RW would honestly debate the issues surrounding gun control? DrDan Apr 2013 #1
You don't defeat the RW by shouting slogans. Savannahmann Apr 2013 #7
"Senator, we always place limits on Civil Rights.??? loyalsister Apr 2013 #12
True, but the truth remains. Savannahmann Apr 2013 #14
I still don't buy ownership of an object designed to as a civil right loyalsister Apr 2013 #43
This... Pelican Apr 2013 #78
I didn't say it was limited to police or knives loyalsister Apr 2013 #80
Two things... Pelican Apr 2013 #82
I didn't say guns should be banned loyalsister Apr 2013 #83
Not really we lost because of the NRA money.. NewEngland4Obama Apr 2013 #2
Which side has a billionaire true believer on it? NT JohnnyBoots Apr 2013 #4
According to this they spent a whopping $3million lobbying... pipoman Apr 2013 #18
Well thought out JohnnyBoots Apr 2013 #3
When an issue has 85% support among the American people... Skinner Apr 2013 #5
That statistic I think has misled you and gun restrictionists. aikoaiko Apr 2013 #13
The Majority Of People Support Gun Control But It Is Not Important To Them? HangOnKids Apr 2013 #15
The Majority Of People Support Gun Control But It Is Not Important To Them? Yes sarisataka Apr 2013 #19
Sorry that poll is ridiculous. HangOnKids Apr 2013 #56
I will reply anyway- It wasn't a poll sarisataka Apr 2013 #59
Here's the Gallup poll done from 4/4 thru 4/7. premium Apr 2013 #16
So the vast majority is being held hostage by a small, heavily armed minority of fanatics? n/t ellisonz Apr 2013 #72
A motivated minority is having an impact, but that is how the Senate was designed. aikoaiko Apr 2013 #79
"I think a Toomey-Manchin like bill will pass soon" ellisonz Apr 2013 #84
Something like it will come around soon I think. aikoaiko Apr 2013 #86
Wow that wasn't poorly phrased at all... ellisonz Apr 2013 #87
We obviously disagree on many things, but incrementalism is your only hope. aikoaiko Apr 2013 #88
You're operating on the presumption that Congress is functional. ellisonz Apr 2013 #89
Ok, then its status quo on guns until then. aikoaiko Apr 2013 #90
We lost this debate because... CincyDem Apr 2013 #6
"WE" Really? None of the decision makers invited me to be part of "WE" HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #45
Yep. Sux to be we. CincyDem Apr 2013 #50
As a progressive democrat I'm tired of being blamed when my warnings go unheeded. HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #53
I didn't mean to imply your warnings should go unheeded CincyDem Apr 2013 #54
All those words can be boiled down to three letters: NRA MotherPetrie Apr 2013 #8
That 90% poll lancer78 Apr 2013 #9
And not only that.. supernaut Apr 2013 #21
Gosh Sherlock ... GeorgeGist Apr 2013 #81
There is more to it than that BethanyQuartz Apr 2013 #10
You're pro-third party and anti-gun control on DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND. DevonRex Apr 2013 #24
I'm pro-third party but eager for dems to run candidates who aren't repukes in blue BethanyQuartz Apr 2013 #28
They were nuked n/t ellisonz Apr 2013 #73
Do you know what did it? DevonRex Apr 2013 #91
No exact idea. ellisonz Apr 2013 #93
Your point about the hubris of DiFi is well made and she is not the only one ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #11
The purpose of this post is not to revisit Gun Control in this Congress, or the next. Savannahmann Apr 2013 #17
Education is also clearly called for ProgressiveProfessor Apr 2013 #63
Not much used to "debating" right wingers, eh? Fumesucker Apr 2013 #20
Those are a small minority Savannahmann Apr 2013 #68
If you are expecting our politicians to be knowledgeable you might as well give up now Fumesucker Apr 2013 #70
In part. TheKentuckian Apr 2013 #22
I couldn't agree more, Kentuckian (from a fellow Kentuckian!) Bake Apr 2013 #51
Well said. beevul Apr 2013 #62
When you got 85% support for an issue nadinbrzezinski Apr 2013 #23
Oh bullshit. Zoeisright Apr 2013 #25
I tend to agree but would add what I think is one vital thing. gulliver Apr 2013 #26
No, we should have highlighted their supporters. Savannahmann Apr 2013 #33
These types of guys don't make great villains. gulliver Apr 2013 #40
Piffle. 99Forever Apr 2013 #27
The NRA was just as powerful before Savannahmann Apr 2013 #34
Hogwash. 99Forever Apr 2013 #36
Yes it is the argument or really education SpartanDem Apr 2013 #41
Save your NRA gibberish for someone else. 99Forever Apr 2013 #44
What aren't you buying? Did you even read the article SpartanDem Apr 2013 #48
Blah blah blah 99Forever Apr 2013 #49
We beat that statistic until it didn't matter Savannahmann Apr 2013 #57
Good grief... 99Forever Apr 2013 #61
These are irrational people who think they need to strap a gun or two on to venture out. Hoyt Apr 2013 #29
Actually, the MAJORITY voted yes in the Senate Uzair Apr 2013 #30
Yep. premium Apr 2013 #31
More stringent gun control failed because support fell. Skip Intro Apr 2013 #32
Exactly. Savannahmann Apr 2013 #35
And don't forget Bloomberg with his dumbass gun control ad premium Apr 2013 #38
It's beginning to look as if some of the RW are backing away Progressive dog Apr 2013 #37
This is about the filibuster, nothing more. Jennicut Apr 2013 #39
lost the debate? Doctor_J Apr 2013 #42
No one wants to, nor will they disarm themselves...... DeSwiss Apr 2013 #46
Your mistake is assuming that the opposition to gun control is intelligent and interested in DanTex Apr 2013 #47
+1 ellisonz Apr 2013 #74
This is like whack a mole Progressive dog Apr 2013 #52
If they keep repeating it, billh58 Apr 2013 #65
Let them defeat themselves. TheCowsCameHome Apr 2013 #55
That is a very good idea sarisataka Apr 2013 #60
Republicans fight for what they want. sendero Apr 2013 #58
Let me correct that billh58 Apr 2013 #66
So what? sendero Apr 2013 #67
Okey, dokey billh58 Apr 2013 #69
Good points, all well made kudzu22 Apr 2013 #64
My Friends Savannahmann Apr 2013 #71
When you talk about a "parade of victims" you marginalize the issue. ellisonz Apr 2013 #75
Then why didn't the elected representatives point that out? Savannahmann Apr 2013 #77
As has been pointed out many times in this thread to you... ellisonz Apr 2013 #85
If you are right, there is no hope. Savannahmann Apr 2013 #92
That debate was lost by the NRA threats in the upcoming election.. jonthebru Apr 2013 #76
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