Welcome to DU!
The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards.
Join the community:
Create a free account
Support DU (and get rid of ads!):
Become a Star Member
Latest Breaking News
General Discussion
The DU Lounge
All Forums
Issue Forums
Culture Forums
Alliance Forums
Region Forums
Support Forums
Help & Search
General Discussion
In reply to the discussion: A Note On 'Drone Strikes', Ladies And Gentlemen [View all]The Magistrate
(95,255 posts)338. As Noted In The Initial Comment, Sir
This is part of the trade-off, and one of the reasons, states do not usually take this course, but rather regard such bodies as mere criminals. Treating them as a belligerent party does indeed endow them with a certain dignity and claim to legitimacy that is denied out of hand to a gang of felons. Whether the greater freedom of action the state gains outweighs this is a serious point for debate. The fact that members of this body are generally to be found outside the bounds of the state, in areas where the state cannot possibly exert its civil policing authority, seems to me to strengthen the case for choosing the course of belligerent status.
Edit history
Please sign in to view edit histories.
393 replies
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
RecommendedHighlight replies with 5 or more recommendations
You do realize that the problem that arises from treating terrorism as warfare...
redgreenandblue
Feb 2013
#3
To emphasize your point, how many Americans either travel or live overseas vs how many
stevenleser
Feb 2013
#11
Yes we do, from simple mathematics. How many Americans have traveled abroad
stevenleser
Feb 2013
#16
What Obama has done and what the powers enable any future president to do
redgreenandblue
Feb 2013
#21
It's really not. There is nothing expansive about this power unless you believe that
stevenleser
Feb 2013
#27
Stateless combatant groups have existed off and on for very, very, very, very long.
JDPriestly
Feb 2013
#108
They have existed for a long time. I think in some respects, drones and the corresponding AUMF
stevenleser
Feb 2013
#124
I Will Happily Repeat It Again, Sir: No One Will Strike Mr. Assange With A Hell-Fire Missile
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#178
"Which is all very well if your wish is only to thunder in rhetorical periods..."
cleanhippie
Feb 2013
#298
There are a lot of questionable assumptions in your argument, The Magistrate.
JDPriestly
Feb 2013
#113
Thank you for saying this, redgreen. Practically everyone who supports the drone strikes
truth2power
Feb 2013
#69
Well put. At the risk of triggering Godwin's Law, I would note that Nazi Germany
coalition_unwilling
Feb 2013
#253
I'm well aware of the PNAC. I can't believe that anyone posting here would not be.
amandabeech
Feb 2013
#297
What you write is probably true for military drones as used in Iraq and Afghanistan
Democracyinkind
Feb 2013
#63
We are not in any valid sense of the phrase, restricting drone strikes to
Warren Stupidity
Feb 2013
#123
"You know perfectly well these decisions are not made on a whim;" But they are made
Vincardog
Feb 2013
#101
You limit the discussion to your specific situation. In reality the argument is against a
Vincardog
Feb 2013
#126
There is always recourse. Congress can impeach him. That is the Constitutional recourse. nt
stevenleser
Feb 2013
#135
I prefer an easier means of correction. Checks and Balances. The American way.
Vincardog
Feb 2013
#143
That IS the check and balance on the Presidency. And it is the American and Constitutional way. nt
stevenleser
Feb 2013
#146
My argument is that the power to kill without notice review or oversight is unconstitutional. We
Vincardog
Feb 2013
#148
I argue we are talking combatants in a war, as does the Magistrate and many others.
stevenleser
Feb 2013
#150
Did you read my post? Can you defend your position? Or are you saying I agree with the
Vincardog
Feb 2013
#156
I'm saying I agree with the magistrate's OP. In fact, in a rather long OP, I cannot find anything on
stevenleser
Feb 2013
#158
Obama Equals Stalin, Sir: Got It --- Points For Mention Of Felix, Though....
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#208
I think your 'straw man' is a bit unfair. The person to whom you are
coalition_unwilling
Feb 2013
#256
Actually there is as defined in their rules. It would not be permitted on us soil
still_one
Feb 2013
#203
Because the U.S. has done some evil things, but that does not mean that everyone who
patrice
Feb 2013
#109
What's the difference between a drone strike and a firefight that kills the suspect?
randome
Feb 2013
#14
The troubling drone attacks are not the ones that target enemies during fighting.
JDPriestly
Feb 2013
#117
Our government is ALWAYS constrained by the constitution, it is the source of
TheKentuckian
Feb 2013
#201
Why do you jump to the conclusion that a suspected terrorist will engage in a firefight?
Luminous Animal
Feb 2013
#28
I agree, within the United States, when possible, use of lethal force should be avoided.
randome
Feb 2013
#32
Your scenario is conjecture. Conjecture doesn't cut it for me particularly
Luminous Animal
Feb 2013
#48
Of course it's conjecture. So is the idea that Obama is planning to assassinate political enemies.
randome
Feb 2013
#66
Then there are those who participate in firefights by building bombs in a basement.
randome
Feb 2013
#132
If you have evidence that someone is building a bomb somewhere out of your jurisdiction,
JDPriestly
Feb 2013
#140
IEDs are only useful locally. If they are a danger to our troops engaged in war, then drones
JDPriestly
Feb 2013
#159
Last night I woke up with the horrible question as to whether we are capable of stopping foreign
JDPriestly
Feb 2013
#280
Our first drone kill of an american citizen was against a person who ran a web site.
Warren Stupidity
Feb 2013
#177
If I Am Solipsistic, Sir, You Would Have a Hard Time Proving To Me You Exist....
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#219
I would suggest that you do a little more reading up on Mr. Awlaki's involvement
msanthrope
Feb 2013
#357
"A louse is a louse...." All this handwringing over a man who would kill every one of us, without
msanthrope
Feb 2013
#362
I am a criminal defense attorney. I am far more cynical than that--people adopt the stance of
msanthrope
Feb 2013
#382
That isn't the issue though. There doesn't have to be a clear and present threat.
TheKentuckian
Feb 2013
#206
Face it. The type of governance you are advocating is authoritarianism.
redgreenandblue
Feb 2013
#36
Indeed Sir, and drones will be misused, and for expediency's sake, and that is the problem.
bemildred
Feb 2013
#37
Who would you like to suggest as the provider of "better, independent oversight"?....
OldDem2012
Feb 2013
#34
It's not really a tricky question unless you are worried about avoiding oversight.
bemildred
Feb 2013
#40
Possibly....but would they be ready to make decisions involving life and death....
OldDem2012
Feb 2013
#83
al'Alawi, Sir, Did Adhere To A Body Engaged In Hostilities Against The United States
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#49
Persons Willing To Abuse This, Sir, Would Act As They Will, Precedent Or No
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#45
Your problem is you are blindly accepting YOUR definition of drone strike as justifiction
rustydog
Feb 2013
#58
Just curious, but how many Confederate soldiers were afforded the protections of Amendment 6.....
OldDem2012
Feb 2013
#165
I don't think all your words trump the simplicity of the Constitution on the matter.
xtraxritical
Feb 2013
#67
Did the Confederates in the Civil War receive this "due process" ?
ConservativeDemocrat
Feb 2013
#282
I do not consider preserving the Union and breaking the back of slavery to be a "wrong"...
ConservativeDemocrat
Feb 2013
#329
I don't necessarily agree with categorizing these people as belligerent parties
alcibiades_mystery
Feb 2013
#92
Expecting Obama or anyone else to adhere to the Golden Rule or the Categorical Imperative of Kant...
randome
Feb 2013
#149
How do you know whether someone is a part of the Taliban? That is part of the problem.
JDPriestly
Feb 2013
#160
When we are invited by other countries to use them? I don't see that happening.
randome
Feb 2013
#103
Pakistan also provided intelligence about OBL's whereabouts then denied to their people they did so.
randome
Feb 2013
#115
You realize that we did have drones operating out of Pakistan with permission at one time
stevenleser
Feb 2013
#162
If one engages in violence against civilization, no matter the cause, then civilization has the
Yavin4
Feb 2013
#118
No problem with using drones against people engaged in violence against civilization.
JDPriestly
Feb 2013
#127
Nor can that person point to anyone who said it sucked that Bush did it and now is in favor nt
stevenleser
Feb 2013
#142
So you do support the right of other countries to attack within our country with drones
Flying Squirrel
Feb 2013
#193
John Bolton said about the same with much less verbiage. That's got to make you feel good.
Bluenorthwest
Feb 2013
#196
If He Agrees With Me, Sir, Then For Once In His Wretched Life He Has Stumbled Into A Correct View
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#197
So basically, any abuse by any authority can be justified if you make up situations. I get it. n-t
Logical
Feb 2013
#211
A good summation followed by a dereliction of responsibility to the precedent being set.
Bonobo
Feb 2013
#214
That is a very good point. However there is an argument to be made that by codifying it into law,
Bonobo
Feb 2013
#221
So you would do away with all constitutional provisions to rights guaranteed by same to Americans
lonestarnot
Feb 2013
#217
We Are Getting Deep Into 'Say Something Once, Why Say It Again?' Territory, Sir
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#236
Worth Re-Reading,Sir: People Forget Just How Sweeping That Language Is....
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#310
For the record, I thought it was a bad road to go down, and a bad way to do it
bhikkhu
Feb 2013
#324
For the record, you lack the conviction of your initial impression on just how bad this would get.
westerebus
Feb 2013
#326
Does this include people in another country riding in a vehicle on the way to the store?
The Straight Story
Feb 2013
#239
Often Combatants Are Killed, Sir, Whilst Doing Nothing Particularly Combative At The Moment
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#241
A willing ally indeed, when we kill innocents there they claim it is their airplanes doing it
The Straight Story
Feb 2013
#266
Your Use Of 'Suspects', Sir, Points Up The Problem With This Discussion
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#267
These Apply To Persons Captured, Sir, Not To Engagement With Combatant Persons
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#270
So I guess things like this are ok as well (I don't see much difference in drones and this:)
The Straight Story
Feb 2013
#321
In essence, you think a moderate degree of "martial law" is an appropriate response
redgreenandblue
Feb 2013
#242
Good, thoughtful piece. It does seem to me that the U.S. government seeks to have its cake and
coalition_unwilling
Feb 2013
#247
I Agree, Sir, We Are In Grave Breach Of Geneva Conventions On Treatment Of Prisoners
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#250
I Expect The Drill, Sir, Would Be The Old 'Bend Over And Kiss Your Ass Good-Bye' Routine
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#275
Again, Sir: Slippery Slope Is Not Solid Ground on Which To Take A Stand
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#311
The Mathematical Correlation, Sir, Is With the Degree Of Precision In Communication Desired
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#317
But Precise Execution, Sir, Is Necessary To Accuracy, Certainly To Accuracy Sustained Over Time...
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#319
The message is inherent in your posting style, "sir". We all knew you'd find some excuse.
Romulox
Feb 2013
#336
People will draw the line differently no doubt - but there is something to remember
jpgray
Feb 2013
#365
Bit Late, Sir, For That Attempt At Snappy Rejoinder To Have Any Sting....
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#374
While You Say You 'Get It', Ma'am, You Show Remarkably Few Signs Of Having Done So
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#340
Our foreign policy mainly serves imperial bullying, and is mostly untrustworthy for that reason
eridani
Feb 2013
#363
Given that most data used is suspect, the policy is wrong, and will likely backfire
eridani
Feb 2013
#368
I Think That Here, Ma'am, You Are Getting Out a Bit Ahead Of What Can Be Taken As Fact
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#375
I saw the OP's name, and KNEW this was going to be a huge excuse/justification.
Romulox
Feb 2013
#335
If A Workable Arrangement Can Be Made, Sir, I Certainly Would Not Object
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#354
Excellent post. I think you explain the situation very well, and I think you would
msanthrope
Feb 2013
#355
All I see are people who sacrifice long term solutions for short term satisfaction...
Humanist_Activist
Feb 2013
#383
Deliberate Misunderstandings, Sir, Help Make The Point: Thank You For Your Assistance
The Magistrate
Feb 2013
#373