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lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
62. clarity on whether a sitting president can be indicted
Fri Sep 27, 2019, 09:46 AM
Sep 2019

It already is clear, and the argument below states why that is.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/yes-constitution-allows-indictment-president


Credit: Matthew Kahn
In a recent opinion piece, I argued that the text and structure of the Constitution, a serious commitment to the rule of law, and plain good sense combine to preclude a rigid policy of “delaying any indictment of a president for crimes committed in winning the presidency.” When a scholar I admire as much as Philip Bobbitt strongly disagrees and argues otherwise in this publication, I need to rethink my position and respond—either confessing error or explaining why I continue to hold to the views I originally expressed
....he says my explanation “depends on an artful reading of Article I, Section 3, which provides that ‘the Party convicted [by the Senate in an impeachment proceeding] shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment,’” trial, conviction and punishment as provided by law. Bobbitt argues that the “natural import of those words” is that the “Party convicted” has to be a person “who has in fact [already] been convicted, i.e., who has gone through an impeachment process prior to being subject to indictment.”

I have no quarrel with that argument, although Professor Bobbitt assumes I do. I read the language of Article I, Section 3 as leaving subject to indictment and trial an official who has been impeached, convicted and removed for an impeachable offense that happens also to be a crime. Without that language, it might have been argued that the ban on double jeopardy would preclude such post-removal proceedings that seek to punish the removed official criminally for the very same conduct that led to the official’s conviction and removal by the Senate. But that language says nothing at all about the amenability to indictment and trial of an official who hasn’t yet been removed through impeachment. It is the Constitution’s unspoken but clear commitment to the rule of law, and to the proposition that even the president is not above the law, that establishes the basic point that being president doesn’t mean being immune to indictment.

All that Article I, Section 3 adds with respect to an official who has been removed through impeachment and conviction is that such an official cannot invoke the Senate conviction as a bar to subsequent criminal prosecution. That such an official “shall nevertheless be liable” to the criminal process says only that he shall “remain” liable to that process—just as he would have been prior to removal. In other words, the impeachment process doesn’t serve as a crime-laundering device.

Ironically, it is Professor Bobbitt who has read Article I, Section 3 in a manner unsupported by the natural import of its words. He has read the statement that someone removed through the impeachment process “shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law” as though the Constitution states that anyone removed from office for committing an impeachable offense shall, upon being convicted by the Senate, for the first time become “liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.” His reading would suggest that amenability to the federal criminal process springs from the ether once an officer has been put through the impeachment wringer and been found wanting.
"fixing" the constitution would require new amendments... cynatnite Sep 2019 #1
I know the likelihood is low. cab67 Sep 2019 #4
The 2nd amendment is the only one I would fix... cynatnite Sep 2019 #12
Eliminate the Senate and Electoral College DrToast Sep 2019 #2
I wouldn't mind a Senate that is proportionally representative. maxsolomon Sep 2019 #6
A proportional Senate defeats the entire point of the Senate. PoindexterOglethorpe Sep 2019 #10
But is the "point" of the Senate valid ? tinrobot Sep 2019 #38
Ok. We simply disagree here. PoindexterOglethorpe Sep 2019 #54
I think it's useful for checks and balances to have one body with longer terms than the other meadowlander Sep 2019 #67
That's why we have a house of representatives...for proportional representation. n/t cynatnite Sep 2019 #11
That just sounds completely illogical to me DrToast Sep 2019 #13
The house of representatives for proportional representation... cynatnite Sep 2019 #16
The framers designed black people to be slaves DrToast Sep 2019 #18
I gave you the argument. Here's something to clarify it better... cynatnite Sep 2019 #19
I understand it's purpose perfectly well. That doesn't mean it's a good idea DrToast Sep 2019 #20
Doing away with it is a worse idea. n/t cynatnite Sep 2019 #21
Agree to disagree! DrToast Sep 2019 #23
Look at it this way... cynatnite Sep 2019 #25
If there was proportional representation, Mitch would never have happened. tinrobot Sep 2019 #39
We do not have true proportional representation in the House either, we have a first-past-the-post Celerity Sep 2019 #22
I understand, I didn't want to get that specific about it. cynatnite Sep 2019 #27
Why the Senate? cab67 Sep 2019 #7
I can't think of a reason we need it. DrToast Sep 2019 #14
This message was self-deleted by its author cynatnite Sep 2019 #17
How does your idea happen without giving... TidalWave46 Sep 2019 #31
I don't have an answer. cab67 Sep 2019 #48
You clearly don't understand how a bicameral system works. Cuthbert Allgood Sep 2019 #59
I understand it perfectly fine. DrToast Sep 2019 #60
So please do tell why a unicameral system would be better. Cuthbert Allgood Sep 2019 #64
Simple DrToast Sep 2019 #65
Those are changes... Mike Nelson Sep 2019 #3
I'd forgotten about the ERA. cab67 Sep 2019 #5
The only solution to gerrymandering is to start realizing how important your vote ... marble falls Sep 2019 #8
the one real wish qazplm135 Sep 2019 #9
All three are good suggestions. Karadeniz Sep 2019 #15
Very, Very Carefully. MineralMan Sep 2019 #24
A better question might be, how can we fix the GOP? guillaumeb Sep 2019 #26
Can it be fixed? cab67 Sep 2019 #49
A good question. guillaumeb Sep 2019 #66
Some ideas... cos dem Sep 2019 #28
I like #7. 3catwoman3 Sep 2019 #41
I would give Supreme Court justices 12 years. cab67 Sep 2019 #50
Atty General must have 2/3 Maj to get confirmed. No more cronies. Laura PourMeADrink Sep 2019 #29
Several things I wouldn't mind changing, elleng Sep 2019 #30
Reconstitute judiciary. kurtcagle Sep 2019 #32
"Senate and House must approve judicial appointments" Polybius Sep 2019 #45
I'm not sure I agree with the last one. cab67 Sep 2019 #52
My List smb Sep 2019 #33
I like #2 cab67 Sep 2019 #53
This message was self-deleted by its author elocs Sep 2019 #34
Well stated. n/t customerserviceguy Sep 2019 #36
I didn't say this was likely. cab67 Sep 2019 #55
There are only two ways to change the Constitution customerserviceguy Sep 2019 #35
I thought the memory of Bush jr would have prevented Trump. cab67 Sep 2019 #56
Scrap the whole thing except the amendments. GulfCoast66 Sep 2019 #37
That would require a ConCon Polybius Sep 2019 #43
Oh, I know it will not happen in my lifetime. GulfCoast66 Sep 2019 #47
How about lifitng the limit of 435 members for the House? tinrobot Sep 2019 #40
Simplist would be to ban Republicans. LiberalFighter Sep 2019 #42
One party rule is a disaster waiting to happen... Falcata Sep 2019 #44
Civil War II is not a good solution Polybius Sep 2019 #46
Republicans weren't banned back then. LiberalFighter Sep 2019 #57
A second Civil War can be completely different reasons than the first one Polybius Sep 2019 #63
Constitution's fine. Voters need fixing. C_U_L8R Sep 2019 #51
My thoughts NewJeffCT Sep 2019 #58
Wow, where to begin? ecstatic Sep 2019 #61
clarity on whether a sitting president can be indicted lagomorph777 Sep 2019 #62
Mixed member proportional meadowlander Sep 2019 #68
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