Rep. Tulsi Gabbard served her country in Iraq.

[pnwmom]

Last edited Mon Oct 21, 2019, 10:16 PM - Edit history (1)

The notorious Sen. Joe McCarthy also served his country, as a Marine in combat.
The racist Democratic Governor George Wallace also honorably served his country in the military.

So have millions of others from all walks of life. Military service is commendable but is just one factor in evaluating the background of someone who's running for President. And Gabbard's military service doesn't make up for all her other shortcomings as a candidate.

[we can do it]

1. Fully agree. Many people serve country and sacrifice for it.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

2. Which is why I am bothered by the all-too-frequent

knee-jerk "Thank you for your service" statements to service members.

Many of them are not necessarily good people or deserving of a lot of respect.

I'm sure I'll get jumped on for this.

[betsuni]

40. Larry David agrees:

[nini]

51. I completely agree

It's such phony crap to me. I have no idea what kind of person served - they could be the biggest asshole ever.

They're not all John Basilone after all. If they deserve it fine but it shouldn't be a blanket thank you.

[RGinNJ]

61. I served for 20 years, and I really feel kind of embarrassed when someone says that to me.

In my mind everyone does their part for their community and country whether in government service or not.

[thenelm1]

62. Basilone

I wonder how many people know who John Basilone is? I've read many books on the battles for Guadalcanal & Iwo Jima over the years, but honestly wouldn't remember who Basilone was if not for Spielberger's & Hank's "The Pacific" where he featured prominently.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

67. I don't believe I've ever heard of him before.

He's not exactly a household name.

[Alea]

68. He should be

MoH recipient. Died on Iwo Jima. Buried at Arlington.

[PoindexterOglethorpe]

71. Perhaps,

but if you went out and questioned a hundred random people, I doubt you'd find more than two or three who'd already heard of him.

[nini]

73. Basilone was a true hero.

EVERY time we drove from LA to San Diego by Camp Pendleton and passed Basilone Rd he'd tell me the story of John Basilone. Then I'd hear it on the way back too

[George II]

3. For what it's worth, Timothy McVeigh also served served his country in Iraq.

[pnwmom]

6. +1. n/t

[BigmanPigman]

58. He is the first person I thought of after reading the OP.

[Kurt V.]

4. my nephew served 22 yrs. he's a stone cold killer. he told me he liked it. purely anecdotal

[Roy Rolling]

47. Not an anecdotal story

In remember where I was when he said it. "I liked Vietnam because I like killing people."

I had asked Jimmy--his real name--if he was glad to be back from Viet Nam in 1969.

War changes people.

[msongs]

5. she hates regime change wars yet willingly participates in them nt

[Beakybird]

7. That's not fair. When you join the military, you take orders.

But this thread has made clear that many cretins wore the badge of military service.

[msongs]

9. if you have principles, you resign in protest. totally fair nt

[melman]

14. Resign from the Army?

Since when are you allowed to do that?

[TomSlick]

44. It's called desertion.

Last edited Mon Oct 21, 2019, 10:23 PM - Edit history (1)

It's frowned upon under the UCMJ.

[sarge43]

55. It's more than frowned upon.

Try it in a combat zone and if you're very lucky you may get an other than honorable. From there, we're talking quality time in a fed slammer or worse. Soldiers have been executed for 'resigning', a few times without benefit of trial.

Desertion in the face of an enemy is a capital offense.

[TomSlick]

63. I'm with you Sarge.

Back in the day, I prosecuted a few soldiers who "resigned." Even in peace-time, it's a three year maximum sentence.

[Jirel]

26. Point.

She hasn’t really talked about that. Hmmm...

[keithbvadu2]

8. Two generals... Flynn & Arnold

Two generals... Flynn & Arnold

Gen Michael Flynn and Gen Benedict Arnold both started out as patriots who served their country well.

Arnold died a traitor in England.

He was not lucky enough to have a Donald Trump on his side.

[Uncle Joe]

10. Well as we're on the subject of Joe McCarthy

Joseph Raymond McCarthy (November 14, 1908 – May 2, 1957) was an American politician who served as a Republican U.S. Senator from the state of Wisconsin from 1947 until his death in 1957. Beginning in 1950, McCarthy became the most visible public face of a period in the United States in which Cold War tensions fueled fears of widespread Communist subversion.[1] He is known for alleging that numerous Communists and Soviet spies and sympathizers had infiltrated the United States federal government, universities, film industry[citation needed], and elsewhere. Ultimately, the smear tactics that he used led him to be censured by the U.S. Senate. The term "McCarthyism", coined in 1950 in reference to McCarthy's practices, was soon applied to similar anti-communist activities. Today, the term is used more broadly to mean demagogic, reckless, and unsubstantiated accusations, as well as public attacks on the character or patriotism of political opponents.[2][3]

(snip)

McCarthy sought to discredit his critics and political opponents by accusing them of being Communists or communist sympathizers. In the 1950 Maryland Senate election, McCarthy campaigned for John Marshall Butler in his race against four-term incumbent Millard Tydings, with whom McCarthy had been in conflict during the Tydings Committee hearings. In speeches supporting Butler, McCarthy accused Tydings of "protecting Communists" and "shielding traitors." McCarthy's staff was heavily involved in the campaign, and collaborated in the production of a campaign tabloid that contained a composite photograph doctored to make it appear that Tydings was in intimate conversation with Communist leader Earl Russell Browder.[70][71][72] A Senate subcommittee later investigated this election and referred to it as "a despicable, back-street type of campaign," as well as recommending that the use of defamatory literature in a campaign be made grounds for expulsion from the Senate.[73] The pamphlet was clearly labeled a composite. McCarthy said it was "wrong" to distribute it; though staffer Jean Kerr thought it was fine. After he lost the election by almost 40,000 votes, Tydings claimed foul play.

(snip)

Even before Welch asked McCarthy, "Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last?" in the hearings, one of the most prominent attacks on McCarthy's methods was an episode of the television documentary series See It Now, hosted by journalist Edward R. Murrow, which was broadcast on March 9, 1954. Titled "A Report on Senator Joseph R. McCarthy", the episode consisted largely of clips of McCarthy speaking. In these clips, McCarthy accuses the Democratic party of "twenty years of treason", describes the American Civil Liberties Union as "listed as 'a front for, and doing the work of', the Communist Party",[118] and berates and harangues various witnesses, including General Zwicker.[119]

In his conclusion, Murrow said of McCarthy:

No one familiar with the history of this country can deny that congressional committees are useful. It is necessary to investigate before legislating, but the line between investigating and persecuting is a very fine one, and the junior Senator from Wisconsin has stepped over it repeatedly. His primary achievement has been in confusing the public mind, as between the internal and the external threats of Communism. We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men—not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular.

This is no time for men who oppose Senator McCarthy's methods to keep silent, or for those who approve. We can deny our heritage and our history, but we cannot escape responsibility for the result. There is no way for a citizen of a republic to abdicate his responsibilities. As a nation we have come into our full inheritance at a tender age. We proclaim ourselves, as indeed we are, the defenders of freedom, wherever it continues to exist in the world, but we cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home.

The actions of the junior Senator from Wisconsin have caused alarm and dismay amongst our allies abroad, and given considerable comfort to our enemies. And whose fault is that? Not really his. He didn't create this situation of fear; he merely exploited it—and rather successfully. Cassius was right: "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves."[120]


(snip)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_McCarthy

Thanks for the thread pnwmom.

[kcr]

11. Why are you bringing up Joe McCarthy with no comment?

That's so clever.

[Uncle Joe]

19. Here is a comment, why give Putin and the Russians power in determining

who our political leaders should be?

[pnwmom]

34. Yeah, why should we? n/t

[Uncle Joe]

38. I asked first but de facto that's the result of baseless accusations and innuendo

against political opponents, contrary to our proclamations we cede power to Putin and the Russians.

[pnwmom]

41. There's plenty of basis for citing Jill Stein as a Russian asset,

a person useful to the Russians, and in suggesting that the Russians want to repeat their success in 2020.

[Uncle Joe]

42. If one has evidence one should present it, rumor and innuendo does not and has never

served our nation well.

[pnwmom]

43. A mountain of evidence has already been presented. You should keep up.

You could start by reading the Senate Intelligence Committee report, parts 1 and 2. And then move on to the Mueller report.

[Uncle Joe]

45. I have kept up and I stand by my post. n/t

[LanternWaste]

72. A week's pay says you'll be unable to see the irony in your having said that.

[melman]

12. Imagine bringing up McCarthy...

...in defense of McCarthyism. The mind reels.

[pnwmom]

13. No one is defending McCarthyism, which isn't a factor here. n/t

[melman]

15. It certainly is

[kcr]

16. So then it's true

There is to be no criticism of anyone who has served our country or anyone involved with Bernie Sanders. The mind reels, indeed.

[melman]

17. Uh

No. That's not true.


But what is true, is that making baseless allegations about 'Russian assets' is the very definition of McCarthyism.


And btw, why do you think the OP chose that name anyway? Just pulled it out of a hat?

[kcr]

18. I think that was brilliant on her part

Given all the baseless accusations of McCarthyism being thrown around by Tulsi defenders pretending the's no evidence the Russians are propping her up as a 3rd party spoiler. Someone's been to Twitter.

[melman]

20. Oh really?

Then why did they just say it's not even a factor here? Seems like you're saying it's a factor.


And how good of a third party spoiler is someone barely polling at 1%? It doesn't even make sense.

[kcr]

22. Who is "they" and what is the factor?

A spoiler doesn't have to poll very high to be effective in our electoral college where the GOP has a significant advantage, so her numbers don't matter much. Jill Stein was certainly effective enough.

[pnwmom]

24. Jill Stein's tiny percentage was big enough to swing an election decided by only 78K votes

across three states.

[Eliot Rosewater]

32. AMAZING who shows up when this issue comes up and NEVER when we are talking

Last edited Mon Oct 21, 2019, 09:56 PM - Edit history (1)

about how much we like Hillary.

So sick of this SHIT

100% certain now what she is, her supporters are no friends of mine. They want me dead.

[Uncle Joe]

33. It makes sense if one believes

that Tulsi will eventually drop out and endorse a candidate that one doesn't favor.

Just a way to poison the well water.

[melman]

46. Oh yes

It always comes back to that.

Probably not an accident this all happened the same weekend a candidate some don't favor had the biggest rally of the season.


And did you notice all the same people always shouting about "OMG the unity pledge" are busy cancelling everyone who wouldn't trash another Democrat? All over twitter...and elsewhere. Beto, Pete, Yang, Williamson, Bernie...all cancelled!

[Uncle Joe]

48. That's an excellent observation melman.

[Bev54]

53. Doesn't matter

All they have to do is run her in a few key states that are close, hoping she will take some of the dem vote. I think they should be careful though, they may get more repub votes than dems.

[pnwmom]

23. You don't even know what the word "asset" means. It does not mean agent, spy, or traitor.

It does not suggest that the person is willing or culpable.

Just useful.

[kcr]

28. Yep

Although worth noting they certainly can be. See Jill Stein. You could literally see her, in pictures, meeting with Russians. And the same crowd defended her and claimed there was no Russian interference. Many of them are on the Bernie Sanders campaign right now, appalled that anyone would make such accusations. See Nina Turner.

[melman]

75. That's very convenient for you

Isn't it. Anybody could be "useful" if you get to define what that is.

And there's no way for them to refute it. Perfect.

[pnwmom]

81. Too bad the truth doesn't fit your argument.

But that's what an asset is.

[melman]

82. And you're just playing word games

in an effort to make it seem like you're not doing what you're obviously doing.

[pnwmom]

83. LOLOL. Words have definitions. You're stuck with this one. n/t

[LAS14]

78. Calling someone an "asset" does not mean you're accusing them of being complicitous with Russians.

Hillary should probably have avoided the word "asset," even though it was probably the most accurate word available. It's too sophisticated for most of her audience to understand that an "asset" doesn't have to be a spy or a traitor. We shouldn't be wasting time attacking Gabbard's intentions, just her policies and the threat of a 3rd party candidate. An asset is just very useful for whatever reasons. The link below is very helpful.

Following its established playbook, Russia has increasingly interfered in the politics of traditional opponents throughout the West in the hopes of undermining democracy and stability from within. Donald Trump was a political novice with a longstanding public admiration for Russian President Vladimir Putin and a penchant for advancing conspiracy theories. He espoused isolationist policies and had potentially compromising financial relationships with Kremlin-aligned oligarchs. He also had few apparent scruples and was running against a woman Putin considers among his main adversaries. Trump was simply an ideal candidate for the Kremlin to back. There is also reason to suspect that Russia began cultivating Trump as an asset long before his campaign for president, a common tactic the Kremlin pursues with people it suspects may be useful in the future.


https://themoscowproject.org/collusion-chapter/chapter-3/

Edit: And here is another place to see the definition of "asset."

Russia's success in attacking our democracy is not tied to their ability to recruit Gabbard (or anyone else) to parrot Russian talking points. Rather, their success comes with their ability to influence and manipulate, through amplification, certain messages and candidates that create division. As we saw in 2016, Russia was able to aid Donald Trump by using tailored and manipulated social media campaigns, without even the knowledge or direction of the Trump campaign itself. After all, Russia's goal in 2016 was the delegitimization of our elections; they did not need to coordinate with Trump to make that happen. That's the disturbing parallel with Gabbard: Russia can seek to support her, without her knowledge.


https://www.newsweek.com/tulsi-gabbard-being-used-russians-former-us-double-agent-evidence-clear-opinion-1466750

[melman]

79. Word games

[LAS14]

80. The point is, what was Hillary intending to say? I guess you just don't care, right? nt

[Devil Child]

27. +1 melman n/t

[guillaumeb]

21. Recommended.

A very concise and logical argument.

[Jirel]

25. Lots of Trump Cultists served the country.

For me, military service says nothing about a person. How and why they ducked it, or what they accomplished while serving, THAT says something about them.

[luvtheGWN]

64. There's also the question of why they joined up.

I don't think it's accurate to infuse all of them with altruistic motives. Some signed up because they didn't want, or didn't have the marks, to get into college. Just as some joined up to get an education while serving.

I'd suggest there are as many reasons for joining up as there are recruits! It takes all kinds......

[chillfactor]

29. agree 100%.....

tulsi seems to forgotten what military service is all about.

[RockRaven]

30. Lee Harvey Oswald was in the Marine Corps

at least according to Full Metal Jacket...

You don't get a free pass on everything you say and do afterwards just because you were in the military, no matter what your service experience was. If it deserves criticism, you get criticized. Anyone trying to deflect that criticism by bringing up that military service is making a bad-faith argument, or is an idiot.

[SCVDem]

31. tRump served the country

Up!

Fuck you for your disservice!

[Mike Nelson]

35. I thank those who serve their country...

... but it does not mean they are, therefore, better than those who did not serve in the military.

[Cha]

36. Being in the military is a not an immunization from advancing positions that are not in the best..

Last edited Mon Oct 21, 2019, 11:55 PM - Edit history (1)

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[AdamGG]

37. I literally have a Tulsi ad appearing next to your post on my screen

and the internet spending campaign is not going to help her.

[Cha]

69. Glad I don't have to see

that. That's all gabbard did here on Kauai.. plaster signs all over the place. I don't have a tv so I don't know what she did there.

But she wouldn't debate her opponents.

[dalton99a]

39. 18.2 million people in the U.S. are veterans. 19 percent of police officers are veterans

including racists who beat up and shoot black people

[Lithos]

49. So, riddle me this

What does it say about someone who takes a professional photographer to the cemetery to take a photo-op of themselves in "uniform" for the sole purpose of creating an ad for use in their political campaign?

This looks just like many bridal portraits

[pnwmom]

60. Well it doesn't exactly reek of sincerity. n/t

[Lithos]

66. So many things wrong with it

However, if I recall no one in the military should be political while in their uniform - given this is a posed shot and one done for political purposes - it strikes me as against the rules.

[pnwmom]

70. Can you imagine war hero Sen. John Kerry in a ridiculous pose like that? n/t

[ejbr]

50. Now I get it

On this site you can only speak badly of certain Democrats not others. The only proof of being a Russian asset is a difference of opinion, presumable support by someone she has no control over and Hillary’s speculation. #hyppcrisy

[Tiggeroshii]

52. She served her country honorably in all areas of service.

The other folks you name did not. And to compare her to those folks is absurd.

[pnwmom]

59. They did until they didn't. n/t

[Zambero]

77. And switched sides upon going back to civilian life

"Big tent" notwithstanding, there should be no room in the Democratic Party for individuals who suck up to the likes of Assad and Putin, not to mention
Fox News' demagogues such as Tucker Carlson.

[BadgerMom]

54. Word.

[mcar]

56. Just one factor

Absolutely right!

[BigmanPigman]

57. I read posts on You Tube after watching Bill Maher "Real Time"

with Susan Rice as a guest. She said that "statements Tulsi has said in the past were questionable". Almost all were pro-Tulsi and most of them mentioned her military background, as if that should automatically disqualify her from being responsible for any sort of negative behavior and opinions she has ever made in the past or will ever make in the future. Yes, I know most are bots but that is what I observed. The only thing they could say to defend her and their support for her was her military background. Thanks for the post.

[LiberalFighter]

65. Totally agree.

Don't forget Ollie North and Allen West

[LAS14]

74. I love your consistent common sense, pnwmom. nt

Last edited Tue Oct 22, 2019, 11:35 AM - Edit history (1)

[Peacetrain]

76. True that!!