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The stark differences (Original Post) SHRED Aug 2015 OP
I've posted this a few times lately. It should probably be pinned Doctor_J Aug 2015 #1
more stark differences - the H-1b visa/tech outsourcing issue HFRN Aug 2015 #2
This is extremely important a2liberal Aug 2015 #18
' I'm actually of the ethnicity that a lot of the H1Bs ' HFRN Aug 2015 #33
Yup! (nt) a2liberal Aug 2015 #53
I second that. Bill Clinton 'reauthorized the H1-B Visa bill in his last term. n/t whathehell Aug 2015 #52
H1B workers are being used to drive down the wages of american IT workers peacebird Aug 2015 #57
Number one issue for me abelenkpe Aug 2015 #59
Wow DonaldChump Aug 2015 #3
Try to spin that. Fuddnik Aug 2015 #4
You want stark differences? longship Aug 2015 #5
It isn't infighting. We have to decide which candidate will represent us in the general election. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #7
How does tearing down one candidate raise another? longship Aug 2015 #9
Pointing out where the candidates stand on the issues and stating that you prefer one or the JDPriestly Aug 2015 #10
But this kind of stuff makes DU suck. longship Aug 2015 #13
Uhm kenfrequed Aug 2015 #16
For one thing, I am not sure this chart is even true. longship Aug 2015 #20
Well there is this article that includes a few citations... kenfrequed Aug 2015 #23
The question is... longship Aug 2015 #28
I don't pretend anything. kenfrequed Aug 2015 #42
"I am not accusing you of this" longship Aug 2015 #43
Take what you will of it kenfrequed Aug 2015 #50
Here you go:: 2000 Senate race. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #25
Pshaw! 15 years ago! I doubt that she would say the same today. longship Aug 2015 #31
You must have missed some of the past Republican campaigns where they accused Democrats JDPriestly Aug 2015 #35
Please, not the flip flop card. longship Aug 2015 #38
It isn't intraparty friction. It is the process of picking a candidate. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #41
I have no bone to pick with you, JD. longship Aug 2015 #47
It seems difficult, because we Bernie supporters are trying to right the "long ship," the wide ship JDPriestly Aug 2015 #51
I hate third way. longship Aug 2015 #55
There is absolutely nothing on this chart that the Rs do not already know. jwirr Aug 2015 #37
Nobody has to post on DU. We are here to discuss issues. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #21
No, you are being very thoughtful. longship Aug 2015 #36
Exactly what criteria do you use to decide what candidate you are going jwirr Aug 2015 #32
Well, many things. longship Aug 2015 #39
This happened in 2008 also. The difference I see between the infighting jwirr Aug 2015 #45
Thanks, jwirr. longship Aug 2015 #49
Uh, why is posting a list of a candidates positions "tearing down"? Dawgs Aug 2015 #12
Exactly! SHRED Aug 2015 #14
Well, just look at the chart. longship Aug 2015 #17
which item in the list is NOT true? ish of the hammer Aug 2015 #29
Here's what you can do. If your not sure it is all true, research it and start an OP debunking it. Autumn Aug 2015 #44
If you don't like what's posted in this group feel free NOT to participate in this group. smokey nj Aug 2015 #58
Well, don't listen to me. Listen to Bernie. longship Aug 2015 #60
Bernie points out that he and Hillary hold different opinions on a number of issues. The chart smokey nj Aug 2015 #61
I am not harassing. longship Aug 2015 #62
Perhaps Rilgin Aug 2015 #65
My sentiments exactly. When disagreement or comparing becomes "infighting" libdem4life Aug 2015 #70
It's not "tearing down", it's stating facts... tex-wyo-dem Aug 2015 #15
Making shit up, don't you mean? longship Aug 2015 #22
Pew references it in 2008 kenfrequed Aug 2015 #24
Here you go smokey nj Aug 2015 #63
Again, in 2000, when she was First Lady. longship Aug 2015 #64
She supported the death penalty as late as 2008 and she hasn't come out in opposition to the death smokey nj Aug 2015 #66
Same as Obama, then. nt longship Aug 2015 #67
Pointing out policy differences between two candidates in a primary is not tearing down anyone. PatrickforO Aug 2015 #19
However, Posting what can only be compared to a Christian Coalition voter guide can. nt longship Aug 2015 #40
precisely! wendylaroux Aug 2015 #54
And who is responsible for that? zeemike Aug 2015 #30
This is the primary. And IMO either candidate will look better beside the jwirr Aug 2015 #34
I don't think she supports Keystone. JayhawkSD Aug 2015 #6
She was in the State Department when the Keystone was being negotiated. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #8
All of that may be true, JayhawkSD Aug 2015 #11
If she were against the XL Pipeline, she would not hesitate to say so. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #27
She might be taking their money, JayhawkSD Aug 2015 #46
I don't hate Hillary. But I do think she is for the pipeline. We shall see. JDPriestly Aug 2015 #69
refusing to state a position on it is different from not supporting it. nashville_brook Aug 2015 #68
Very good post. Please post it regularly. nt ladjf Aug 2015 #26
You beat me to it. SoapBox Aug 2015 #48
Good grief, I didn't know she supported border fence legislation. Zorra Aug 2015 #56


(36,392 posts)
1. I've posted this a few times lately. It should probably be pinned
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 10:25 AM
Aug 2015

The choice for progressives is very easy.



(1,469 posts)
2. more stark differences - the H-1b visa/tech outsourcing issue
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 10:28 AM
Aug 2015

feel free to plaster the internet with this

Clinton's free-trade advocacy is hitting labor where it lives
Competition helps both sides, she says. A Buffalo deal yielded a few jobs.
July 30, 2007|Peter Wallsten | Times Staff Writer

BUFFALO, N.Y. — To many labor unions and high-tech workers, the Indian giant Tata Consultancy Services is a serious threat -- a company that has helped move U.S. jobs to India while sending thousands of foreign workers on temporary visas to the United States.

So when Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) came to this struggling city to announce some good news, her choice of partners was something of a surprise.

Joining Tata Consultancy's chief executive at a downtown hotel, Clinton announced that the company would open a software development office in Buffalo and form a research partnership with a local university. Tata told a newspaper that it might hire as many as 200 people.

The 2003 announcement had clear benefits for the senator and the company: Tata received good press, and Clinton burnished her credentials as a champion for New York's depressed upstate region.

But less noticed was how the event signaled that Clinton, who portrays herself as a fighter for American workers, had aligned herself with Indian American business leaders and Indian companies feared by the labor movement.


"Outsourcing will continue. There is no way to legislate against reality. We are not in favor of putting up fences."
Hillary had said on Feb 28 in India, according to a report by the Asia Times. Kirwin also cited her position as co-chair of the ‘Friends of India Caucus’ in the Senate, a group of senators that supports issues important to India, including outsourcing and H-1B and L-1 visas, as another reason behind the ITPAA's decision to give the award to the prospective Democrat presidential nominee.”
(Press Trust Of India, 3/5/05)


(1,524 posts)
18. This is extremely important
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:37 AM
Aug 2015

I work in an industry that is being overrun by H1Bs, and despite what the companies and Wall Streeters will try to tell you, they are definitely taking jobs that Americans CAN do. It's a wage suppression tactic. It's one of the few things that Trump is right about, and I see him gaining traction in my field just because of that.

Oh and before someone tries to accuse me of being racist: I'm actually of the ethnicity that a lot of the H1Bs are...



(1,469 posts)
33. ' I'm actually of the ethnicity that a lot of the H1Bs '
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 12:12 PM
Aug 2015

must be weird being called a 'racist' every time you tell the truth about H-1b on the internet. I'm sure your comment

' Oh and before someone tries to accuse me of being racist' comes from being called it nearly every time you say anything - that's what's so galling about this whole issue - how incredibly vicious the whole thing is - never thought my own country, my own party would really do that to me

but it's the nature of having your own group sell you out - if they're vicious enough to do it in the first place, they're vicious enough to try to destroy you for telling the truth about it


(14,195 posts)
57. H1B workers are being used to drive down the wages of american IT workers
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 01:54 PM
Aug 2015

I also witnessed that in the past decade. Coders, testers, data analysts, all jobs with plenty of talented american workers to choose from will instead choose low cost h1b workers over americans any day. Then when the american worker is offered a job it is at a lower salary because 'that's what this type position earns here'
Because enough H1B workers drive down the wage scale.


(40,416 posts)
5. You want stark differences?
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:01 AM
Aug 2015

Contrast any Dem candidate's -- say, Hillary, for example -- against any of the current GOP candidates. You pick... Any of the 17 current ones.

You see, the theocratic GOP has the majority of all the other offices nationwide.

* the state legislatures.
* the governorships.
* the US House of Representatives.
* the US Senate.
* the US Supreme Court, by a hair.

So how does infighting help us?

I will support any Democratic presidential nominee and will not diss any prospect.


(57,936 posts)
7. It isn't infighting. We have to decide which candidate will represent us in the general election.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:11 AM
Aug 2015

It's primary time. I'm for Bernie.

I do not want Hillary to be our candidate because I think she is more likely to lose to a Republican than Bernie is.

And part of the reason I think that is that I believe that the American people agree with Bernie on his stands on the issues as listed above. I think that voters will want to get out and vote with and for Bernie. I think they will not want to vote with and for Hillary so much and one of the reasons I think that is that she stands on the wrong side of so many, many issues. Bernie is the one to vote for in the primaries.

It isn't being decisive. It is making a decision. We have to make this decision. Personally one voter can choose to sit it out, but the majority of us will be stuck with the candidate we pick in the primary.

And as you can see from the list, there is quite a difference between the views of the candidates. I am for Bernie Sanders.


(40,416 posts)
9. How does tearing down one candidate raise another?
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:15 AM
Aug 2015

I think Bernie would disapprove.

I certainly do.

It's divisive. No wonder Dems are losing everything.


(57,936 posts)
10. Pointing out where the candidates stand on the issues and stating that you prefer one or the
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:24 AM
Aug 2015

other candidate on the issues (in this case I prefer Bernie) is not "tearing down one candidate to raise another." It is considering the issues and picking a candidate based on that. That is what Bernie says we should do. And I agree.

I agree the most with Bernie on the issues, and that is the main reason that I am voting for him.

I also think he will make the best candidate and be most likely to win and my opinion in that respect is my subjective opinion. But the most important reason that I think Bernie will win is that he is right on so many issues and has the courage to follow through.

It doesn't take much courage to be right on the Citizens United issue, to have the right opinion, even to say the right things about Citizens United. Hillary has done that to some extent.

But it takes ENORMOUS COURAGE to run a presidential campaign relying mostly on donations of $2,700 or less and without encouraging or having people organize super-pacs on your behalf. That takes ENORMOUS COURAGE.

And it is there at that point -- where actions like running a campaign on smaller donations -- back up a candidate's words, that who the candidate is and what the candidate does become important factors to consider in deciding who to vote for.

And when it comes to his actions -- his wise votes in Congress, his stances on things like gay marriage and race and police brutality and women -- Bernie has acted in support of the issues, the people, the morality and values that I care about, that I think most Democrats care about. And that is also why I support him.

But basically, my support for Bernie is always based on the issues. Not so much on his rumpled suits or his smile or his hair -- although I like those things about him, I certainly would not vote for him based on those things. Besides, much as I like Bernie, in the end, Hillary has better hair-cuts. So if I were basing my vote on things other than the issues, who knows, I might prefer Hillary. I just haven't thought about it much.

Bernie is a great speaker. Hillary not so much. They are both nice people I am sure.


(40,416 posts)
13. But this kind of stuff makes DU suck.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:29 AM
Aug 2015

And divides good democrats from one another.

Support your candidate choice, but tearing down another's is counter productive. That's why Bernie does not do it!!!! <=== nota bene!

I will support and work for any Democratic nominee.


(7,865 posts)
16. Uhm
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:36 AM
Aug 2015

Actually, Bernie does point out policy differences between candidates and it is important to recognize the differences between the candidates. No one is helped by pretending there are no differences.


(40,416 posts)
20. For one thing, I am not sure this chart is even true.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:43 AM
Aug 2015

For instance, I have not heard her say a damned thing on the death penalty.

The chart is a hit piece, pure and simple. There are no citations.

And I cannot think Bernie would support such a slimy thing.

This is what makes DU suck and why so many of our long term posters have given up on DU.

DU's purpose is to support Democrats, not tear them down.

This behavior disgusts me.

No wonder the GOP has everything but the White House.

1968 déjà vu.


(40,416 posts)
28. The question is...
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 12:01 PM
Aug 2015

Will you support and vote for her if she gets the nomination?

That is what is important.

Also, the evaluation at your link is somewhat questionable. As in, the quote shows her not explicitly supporting Arctic drilling, but the evaluation is "Correct" as in she supports it.

In other words, the evaluation is not honest. Also, I doubt that she supports the death penalty or further war in the Middle East at this time, no matter her previous positions. And please do not attempt to play the flip-flop card.

I am not a Hillary or Bernie supporter (or anybody else at this time). The only thing I will say is that as a lifelong Democrat I will support any Democratic nominee for any office. The GOP has everything locked up except the White House. And hell if I am going to let a replay of 1968 infighting to keep the White House out our hands.

That is why I am so passionate about this issue.

So forgive that passion.

My regards.


(7,865 posts)
42. I don't pretend anything.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 12:51 PM
Aug 2015

I support Bernie and that is that. I have no respect for anyone that feigns neutrality or fakes their support so they can snipe on the internet. I am not accusing you of this, I am merely saying that if that is your game you may as well stop it.

According to Pew research in 2008 they compiled positions of the candidates and Hillary was pro death penalty then. There has been no evidenc e to suggest she has a different opinion since then. As a candidate she could easily have released a statement of some sort and she has not.

The only conclusion is that she is still in favor of it till she says otherwise.


(40,416 posts)
43. "I am not accusing you of this"
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 01:02 PM
Aug 2015


I will reserve judgement on that.

Thanks for your response.


(7,865 posts)
50. Take what you will of it
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 01:31 PM
Aug 2015

I will pretend not to notice that you have ignored my refuation of Hillary's position on the death penalty.


(57,936 posts)
25. Here you go:: 2000 Senate race.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:51 AM
Aug 2015

When Hillary Rodham Clinton announced her campaign for the Senate in 2000, she declared - emphatically, according to an interviewer - that she supported the death penalty.


Of course, maybe she has "evolved" on that issue as she has on so many others, or maybe she will tell us that we will just have to wait until after she is elected and then she will let us know her views (as she has on the Keystone XL Pipeline), but she was in favor of the death penalty in 2000.

One nice thing about Bernie is that he chose the right, the progressive, the intelligent and morally sound position on most of the issues long ago and has stuck to what was progressive, intelligent and morally sound for many years. I think he changed his mind on some sex issues, but then age tends to cause us to do that. But outside of that, he has a strong moral compass, knows right from wrong, and his stances on the issues reflect that.

I'm going to vote for Bernie, and I hope everybody does. He is the best on the issues and will make the strongest candidate in 2016.


(40,416 posts)
31. Pshaw! 15 years ago! I doubt that she would say the same today.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 12:08 PM
Aug 2015

So the chart is based on data over a decade and a half old?

My problem is not the support for Bernie, it is the deliberately contrived hit piece against Clinton.

How does tearing Hillary Clinton support your candidate? Bernie has explicitly denounced such tactics.

It seems like 1968 déjà vu to me. And that sucked.


(57,936 posts)
35. You must have missed some of the past Republican campaigns where they accused Democrats
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 12:16 PM
Aug 2015

of being wishy-washy.

Hillary has changed her mind on too many issues.

If she changes her mind on this one too, well, that is her right, and I hope she does, but the fact remains that she is caught because she has been wrong and then had to change her mind on so many issues.

I'm glad she is prepared to change her mind, but why was she wrong on so many issues in the first place?

That's why her trust numbers in polls are low. And that is why I question her judgment. She was wrong on LGBT marriage, wrong on the Iraq War Resolution vote, wrong on death penalty. These are issues about her stances on the issues that are important in the 2016 election, and she has, at some point in her life, taken a strong stance on the wrong side of so many, many issues.

That might not be a problem were it not for the fact that Bernie has taken the right stance, the fair stance, the humanitarian, inclusive stance, the stance that supports freedom and life on all of these issues pretty much from his youth.

That's why we like Bernie so much. He doesn't have to correct all his past, bad opinions. There are a few issues on which he has changed his mind, but on the politicla issues of importance in this election, he has had the good judgment and the moral foundation in his decision-making to take the right side from the get-go.

Bernie is just a person who decides things from his moral core. And that shows in many ways. That is what is good about him. He is not a flailer. He doesn't change his mind on the moral issues every few years.

Hillary -- well, . . . . Here we go again. She needs to change her mind on another moral issue, an issue of fairness and right and wrong. She has been on the wrong side of too many issues too often. Changing her mind on yet another one will not alter the fact of her inability to take the right side in the first place.


(40,416 posts)
38. Please, not the flip flop card.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 12:25 PM
Aug 2015

That is so GOP.

I do not care what a candidate's position was. I care what their position is.

So playing the flip flop card is just not going to work with me. Knowing its history I would hope that it wouldn't work with you either.

I like Bernie. A lot. I like much of what Hillary Clinton has done. Granted, not all. But I will not choose my candidate until the election is far closer.

This intraparty friction is tearing us apart, just like in 1968. That is what is important here.

As always.


(57,936 posts)
41. It isn't intraparty friction. It is the process of picking a candidate.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 12:44 PM
Aug 2015

Bernie is relying on volunteers to do some of the work on his campaign that Hillary is hiring people and buying ads to do.

That means that we Bernie supporters are responsible for getting Bernie's message out as volunteers. And that is what I am doing. Getting Bernie's message out. Organizing. Speaking (writing actually) my mind.

The Hillary faction wants to stop Bernie and the way they are doing that is by trying to silence Bernie supporters.

Rather than telling Bernie supporters to shut up, Hillary supporters should explain why they want to vote for a candidate who changes her mind so often and so easily on issues on which Bernie has always been on the morally and socially correct side.

The "flip-flop card" is important to me because one of my doubts about Hillary is her ability to make good decisions on the issues. I think that she has poor judgment, that she is not morally grounded on social issues. That moral grounding that Bernie has is really important to me. He just takes the high road when it comes to things like human rights, making sure everyone is safe and OK, when it comes to loving others and having compassion. He just has the values that I was raised with. His economic stances come from those values. That's why he is concerned about the silent, hidden unemployment, about the college debt our children are facing, about fair immigration laws that don't throw good people out of our country, about fair treatment of minorities, especially in our justice and police system, about the TPP courts, about all the issues that I care about.

I will explain to you where I come from. My father was a Methodist minister and a social worker. I care about justice. That is why I am a Democrat. Justice means fairness and respect for all not only with regard to jobs and economics (especially with regard to discouraging fraud and the taking advantage of people by the very rich), race, poverty (I worked raising money for a large homeless project for years), equality (gender, age, race) and other social issues. I'm with Bernie on these issues. He is much stronger say on the idea of single payer insurance than Hillary is. He is stronger on protecting Social Security than Hillary is. I care about the poor. I was actually raised to be a Christian. I don't know where the so-called religious right comes from, but they certainly have not read the same Bible I was raised on.

So that is why Hillary's flip-flopping is important to me. How can anyone favor the death penalty? It makes no sense to me. How could she have? It looks like political expediency on her part to me. Supporting the death penalty got you votes in 2000. Not such a big issue now, so maybe she will have her pollsters check the national pulse and change her mind. I have no idea, but I do know that Bernie stands solidly on issues even gun laws where I and most Americans do. And that is why I think he stands a very good chance of being our next president.

Bernie has not had to change his mind on every other issue because he made his mind up in the first place based on certain moral principles and not on the polls or what he thought people wanted to hear. And that is Bernie's greatest strength. In this time of social upheaval, this time of great change, Bernie has steadfast moral principles that are very, very American. He speaks for the country in that moral sense. That's why people are so excited about hearing him speak. He speaks for the best that is in our nation.


(40,416 posts)
47. I have no bone to pick with you, JD.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 01:14 PM
Aug 2015

You are always one of my favorite DUers. And your posts are respectful.

But we have recently lost so many long timers here that I feel that somebody should speak out about the infighting. I would hope that you would join me on this.

It is not the position of the posts, it is the tone.

I confess that I may have a bit of a hair trigger right now. So forgive my sensitivity.

But what has been happening here recently helps nobody if we are driving off our oldest and best by what we do, or how we do it.

I apologize to all here if anybody took offense. But I firmly believe that the infighting has to stop if we are to win in 2016.

And I will support the Democratic nominee, whoever it is. I have a preference, but I prefer not to reveal it here, as I would prefer not to plunge my hands into a vat of necrotizing faciitus. So toxic has the dialog become with regards to the primaries, which are still months away.

Thank you for putting up with me.


(57,936 posts)
51. It seems difficult, because we Bernie supporters are trying to right the "long ship," the wide ship
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 01:31 PM
Aug 2015

that is the Democratic Party so that we return to being a party that is a big tent but that sticks together because we all agree on certain fundamental values.

The Third Way was the wrong way for the Democratic Party.

Not since the end of the industrial revolution have unions been so weak, has the relationship between employers and employees so tilted in favor of employers, and our basic rights as working people been in such jeopardy. Look at the list of Republican candidates and their stances on labor issues and you will see that the danger of a Republican victory in 2016 is unthinkable. It would devastate working families in America.

The Clinton administration was unsuccessful in representing the interests of the American people. They are to acquiescent to the interests and views of their rich friends. Most of us out here simply cannot afford to vote for their political philosophy, their compromise, any more.

I have washed dishes in a pizza restaurant. I worked for McDonalds. I did catering in college. I know what it is to have tired legs and feet when my eight hours are finished. I lived overseas, in Europe. I know what it is to have single payer insurance that just continues even when your job doesn't. I know what it is to live in a country in which you know everyone is insured. I know what it is to walk the streets of the poorest area of my city and see homeless people sleeping in makeshift beds, lines of them on city streets. I have seen so much, and Bernie is the candidate who will best speak of and to the suffering that is ignored in our country.

It's time for us to take an accounting of the people who lost out in the greedy frenzy of the 1980s through 2008, from the beginning of the Reagan era to its end in the economic free-fall of 2008.

Our economy is still a mess. There is far more unemployment, especially among the very young and among older workers than the official numbers reveal. I see it around me. People who lost their homes and jobs and maybe even families in the aftermath of 2008 are still trying to find their ways back just to living in dignity.

Bernie Sanders is the person to lead at this time of great division and economic and racial division in our country. We need the moral voice that only he is offering at this time.

So I hope you will get on board with Bernie. Thanks for this discussion.


(40,416 posts)
55. I hate third way.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 01:48 PM
Aug 2015

I am a socialist progressive, but I am also a yellow dog Dem. I'd vote for a yellow dog before I'd vote for a Republican. Or a third party.

My view is to change Democratic politics one has to do it from within, and begin at the bottom.

That is what Jerry Falwell (Moral Majority) and Pat Robertson (Christian Coalition) knew well in the late 70's. They ran their theocratic freaks for precinct delegates all over the country, and they won. Once one has the precincts, one has the county party, and the district delegates. Once one has the district delegation one controls the state party, and the selection of national delegates. And they were wildly successful, far beyond their dreams, or our nightmares.

Now, these crazies have everything but the White House. They have the state legislatures, the governorships, and both sides of the US Congress. And SCOTUS is on a tipping point.

So forgive me if I think that 2016 is the most important election of my life (born in 1948). I also think that if a Democrat does not win, we may be totally fucked. That is why I will not commit to a candidate here this early. First, I am going to support whoever is nominated. Second, I can still work for my favorite candidate. But with the somewhat toxic environment here, I will do the latter outside of DU.


(57,936 posts)
21. Nobody has to post on DU. We are here to discuss issues.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:44 AM
Aug 2015

Bernie is the best candidate. There really isn't any argument to the contrary other than to tell Bernie supporters to shut up. I'm not being divisive. I am trying to unite Democrats around Bernie's candidacy. That's what I am supposed to do as a Bernie supporter. Hillary is not yet the candidate. Bernie will be the candidate. That is my opinion.

And that is essentially what all the posts about dividing Democrats are about. The Hillary supporters don't have good arguments for backing their candidate, so instead of arguing in favor of their candidate, they tell us Bernie supporters to shut up.

I was talking about the issue, not about hair or about hating Hillary.

I talk about the issues and I am told that is divisive. The only reason that it feels divisive is that my arguments are strong. They are the believable. They are well thought out. Bernie is right on the issues. Hillary is wrong on the issues -- or at least on the ones they disagree on, and Hillary supporters can't really explain why anyone should vote for Hillary based on the issues rather than for Bernie based on the issues.

It is not divisive to write on a discussion website like DU which candidate I support and why.

Bernie wants us to decide on the issues. I'm talking about the issues.

But that is not enough for me as a voters.

The candidates should stick to the issues and not use negative ads. But we voters will inevitably decide in part on how we think a candidate will represent our side in the general election. I think that Bernie is more capable of winning.

So, my posts are not intended to be divisive.

But the primaries are inevitably about making a decision. We each only get to vote for one candidate. Voters who come here need to make that decision. No one comes here to read about the Kardashians. They come here because they want to read about politics.

The only reason Hillary supporters object to Bernie supporters pointing to Bernie's strengths is that deep in their hearts, they know they should vote for Bernie, but they feel emotionally committed to Hillary. The Hillary supporters need to rethink the issue. Bernie is clearly the right candidate for this time. That's all there is to it.

No. I'm not being divisive. I am trying to unite the Democratic Party around our best candidate: Bernie Sanders.


(40,416 posts)
36. No, you are being very thoughtful.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 12:16 PM
Aug 2015

But the OP has at its sole goal the tearing down of another candidate by perceptions of her past positions. The evaluation of the chart linked to in another response does not give me any more reason to see this as not being a hit piece than any argument for "contrast" between candidate's position.

This is the type of thing I would expect from the GOP, or within Christian Coalition voter guides. If you don't see it as sleazy, I don't know what I can say to convince you.

However, thank you for your thoughtful responses.

My best.

Nota bene: I support no Democratic presidential candidate as of yet, as I consider it far too early.


(39,215 posts)
32. Exactly what criteria do you use to decide what candidate you are going
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 12:10 PM
Aug 2015

to support in a primary? Most of us look at the issues and that is what this chart shows.


(40,416 posts)
39. Well, many things.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 12:41 PM
Aug 2015

Position on issues is top. But there are those other, less important things which may make a difference. I have not decided who I will support in the MI primary, but I have time to decide.

Note: I was a McGovern delegate in 1972, so I am fairly comfortable with candidates of Sanders' positions. Just don't know who I will get my vote yet. There is plenty of time to decide.

The thing is, the friction here on DU is not helpful in that regard. Too many Hillary and Bernie supporters here are acting like spoiled brats, acting out, throwing tantrums. They are driving too many long time DUers away with their childish behavior.

It seems like 1968 infighting again. That didn't work out so well for Democrats. Unfortunately, now we don't have Congress, or governorships, or state legislatures on our side. And SCOTUS hangs by the skin of its teeth.

So you will forgive me if I prefer to not make a mistake this time. And forgive me for being a bit scolding about the infighting. But it is my opinion that that kind of behavior helps nobody.


(39,215 posts)
45. This happened in 2008 also. The difference I see between the infighting
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 01:06 PM
Aug 2015

in 1968 (which I am very familiar with) and that of 2008 and now is that back then the issue was very clear cut. Vietnam or no Vietnam. Send our sons to a war that seemed to have no goals or keep them home and end the draft. The people against corporate America.

Today it is still the people against corporate America but there are more sides to the issue. No longer just about war and the draft. It now fight that includes many more issues than then. Climate, clean water, another war, military spending vs. domestic spending, alternative energy, the safety net, campaign reform, criminal justice reforms, women's issues, wealth inequality and many more. So what we are seeing is an expanded discussion about the same issue in a different time and situation.

With the increase in the impact of corporations in our world I would expect more issues and strong support for one or the other position. I don't think what is happening is outrageous under the circumstances.

You are getting a lot of push back here because you are repeating one of Hillary's supporters memes: they insist that talking issues is attacking her personally.

As to the poster being wrong? All we have to do is google and the answer is there.


(40,416 posts)
49. Thanks, jwirr.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 01:23 PM
Aug 2015

I appreciate your thoughtful post.

Well, I support nobody openly here. I just do not want to get into it. (Pshaw! Then I plunge myself into it anyway.)

I just hope people would be more respectful to each other, especially when they disagree. And, like Bernie, I don't like hit pieces, no matter how they are framed as a contrast of positions. If one cannot make a positive post about ones candidate, than one has nothing. And a negative post does nothing whatsoever to raise ones candidate. It only lowers the dialog for the whole enterprise. That hurts all Democrats.


(40,416 posts)
17. Well, just look at the chart.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:36 AM
Aug 2015

I am not even sure it is even all true, which would condemn it all the more. It looks like a hit job, which I believe Bernie has explicitly denounced.

You won't mind if I don't participate in emulating the 1968 Democratic Party infighting.
But by all means, please proceed and see what that gets us.

ish of the hammer

(444 posts)
29. which item in the list is NOT true?
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 12:06 PM
Aug 2015

This is a list of positions of the two candidates. Which item is wrong? Somebody in the comments said that they never heard anything about Clinton's death penalty positions. A quick (very quick) google search indicates that Clinton supports the death penalty.
So, how is it a hit job? What's not true?


(45,168 posts)
44. Here's what you can do. If your not sure it is all true, research it and start an OP debunking it.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 01:05 PM
Aug 2015

You don't have to participate in any thing or in any group. I realize you are undecided but this group is for supporters of Bernie Sanders, those of us who are decided. You don't like what's posted then it's up to you to prove it false.

smokey nj

(43,853 posts)
58. If you don't like what's posted in this group feel free NOT to participate in this group.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 01:56 PM
Aug 2015

You are not a host, you don't get to determine what's appropriate.

smokey nj

(43,853 posts)
61. Bernie points out that he and Hillary hold different opinions on a number of issues. The chart
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 02:24 PM
Aug 2015

illustrates that. Stop harassing participants of this group.


(40,416 posts)
62. I am not harassing.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 02:31 PM
Aug 2015

But I will gladly relent.

And I cannot believe Bernie would support that chart.

I am done here.

My best to you.


(787 posts)
65. Perhaps
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 03:12 PM
Aug 2015

Perhaps the problems is that looking at the chart, you can not believe its true because if the chart was true and those are Hillary's positions, you do not know why anyone would advocate for her candidacy versus a candidate who supports the other policy positions.

In other words, instead of not believing its true, first reserve your doubts and postulate the chart is an accurate reflection of their positions. Now, assuming the chart is truthful, who do you support? Now express your doubts to yourself because we should all be skeptical about internet posts. If research then provides proof that the Chart reflects Hillary positions that she has not directly or indirectly changed, you will have your answer.

The problem comes from your initial reaction which was "Of course this can not be true". Those of us who think she is actually and factually a bad candidate for the Democratic Party view the chart differently. And our views were not the initial reaction. I would imagine that if you asked me before I saw 30 years of Bill and Hillary Clinton if such a chart could be true, I would be like you and say "I can not imagine that she is in favor of the death penalty" or spoke forcefully in the last five years against marriage for the LGBT community or a host of other issues. However, we do have 30 years of experience with the Clintons now and have seen the effect of triangulation and soft right wing policies on our country driving us slowly over the same cliff the Republicans would take us only at a slower speed.



(13,877 posts)
70. My sentiments exactly. When disagreement or comparing becomes "infighting"
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 04:35 PM
Aug 2015

it's just someone trying to score a few points...make an argument...get attention...which this poster seems bound and determined to do. Tearing people down for tearing people down, then expressing that he is either undecided or whatever.


(3,190 posts)
15. It's not "tearing down", it's stating facts...
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:35 AM
Aug 2015

Simply showing the differences between the two candidates.

So, let's have lots of debates, the candidates can have an opportunity to defend their positions and Democrats can then make an informed decision on who to support.

It's really that simple.


(40,416 posts)
22. Making shit up, don't you mean?
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:47 AM
Aug 2015

Since when is Hillary pro death penalty?

There are no citations for the chart. It comes off as a hit piece, which is the only thing it is.

It is really that simple.

Shades of the 1968 Democratic Party.


(40,416 posts)
64. Again, in 2000, when she was First Lady.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 02:38 PM
Aug 2015

What is her position on the death penalty now? That is what matters.

smokey nj

(43,853 posts)
66. She supported the death penalty as late as 2008 and she hasn't come out in opposition to the death
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 03:12 PM
Aug 2015



(18,998 posts)
30. And who is responsible for that?
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 12:07 PM
Aug 2015

The voters or the Dems that did not offer candidates that had popular support?
The evidence is clear, when our party had a 50 state solution the Dems won, when we abandoned it we lost.
If you offer the voters change they will vote...offer them the status quo they stay home.


(39,215 posts)
34. This is the primary. And IMO either candidate will look better beside the
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 12:14 PM
Aug 2015

17 but that is not the question right now. The question is who do Democrats want for their candidate in the general election. You seem to be ignoring that.



(3,163 posts)
6. I don't think she supports Keystone.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:10 AM
Aug 2015

I believe she has declined to take a position on it.

That doesn't mean that I'm inclined to vote for her. Merely in the interest of accuracy.

Not that I think 97.3% is necessarily all that inaccurate.


(57,936 posts)
8. She was in the State Department when the Keystone was being negotiated.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:13 AM
Aug 2015

The best bet is that she is for it.

In any case, she should know enough about it by now to be able to tell us her opinion of it.

The Keystone would be located in an area that could seriously harm the water supply of a lot of our farmers and many of us. We should not allow it. If she can't take a stand on protecting our water supply, I don't think she should be president.

I'm for Bernie. And that is one of my reasons.



(3,163 posts)
11. All of that may be true,
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:26 AM
Aug 2015

but she has, to the best of my knowledge, not taken a position on it. You say that "the best bet is," but I flunked mind reading in high school so I have to settle for what the candidate says, and she has not said she supports it.

So that statement that "She supports the Keystone pipeline" is not correct. A statement that "She is likely to wind up supporting the Keystone pipeline" might be accurate enough, or "There is evidence that she probably supports the Keystone pipeline," but not the unconditional statement of support that was made.

I'm not voting for her either, and I conceded 33 out 34 of the points made, so I don't know why we are arguing about this.


(57,936 posts)
27. If she were against the XL Pipeline, she would not hesitate to say so.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 11:55 AM
Aug 2015

The only reason she would personally oppose it and hesitate to say so would be if she thinks that one of her donors would forsake her, that is if she is taking money from people who favor it, and she personally doesn't like it but does not want to offend her donor(s).

I can't think of any other reason for her silence.

So I think we can safely assume that she favors the Pipeline. Why do you think she refuses to answer questions on it?



(3,163 posts)
46. She might be taking their money,
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 01:06 PM
Aug 2015

opposing the pipeline and saying nothing so that she can keep taking their money. Then, once she has gotten as much money as she can she will come out in opposition to the pipeline.

I don't know, As I said, I flunked mindreading. I can't even read my wife's mind when she is in the room with me, so I sure as hell can't read Hillary's mind when she's a thousand or more miles away.

I don't get it. Why are you not able to settle for us agreeing on 33 out of 34 points. Why do you have to try to browbeat me into agreeing with you on the one single point out of 34 on which I have not expressed the same degree of Hillary hate that you hold?


(57,936 posts)
69. I don't hate Hillary. But I do think she is for the pipeline. We shall see.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 04:16 PM
Aug 2015

I don't hate Hillary. I just prefer Bernie.


(18,791 posts)
48. You beat me to it.
Fri Aug 21, 2015, 01:22 PM
Aug 2015

Yes...an occasional posting is a great reminder for some of us about all the differences...stark differences.

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