The pornification of America

[seabeyond]

Actors having real sex in art-house movies. Erstwhile child star Lindsay Lohan appearing barely clad on the cover of her new album. Teenage girls strolling down Main Street USA attired in ''Porn Star" T-shirts. A bikini-wearing Jessica Simpson bumping and grinding in the music video for ''These Boots Are Made for Walkin.' " College-age women flashing for the ''Girls Gone Wild" video series with nonchalant exhibitionism. Not too long ago, pornography was a furtive profession, its products created and consumed in the shadows. But it has steadily elbowed its way into the limelight, with an impact that can be measured not just by the Internet-fed ubiquity of pornography itself but by the way aspects of the porn sensibility now inform movies, music videos, fashion, magazines, and celebrity culture.

*

What is new and troubling, critics suggest, is that the porn aesthetic has become so pervasive that it now serves as a kind of sensory wallpaper, something that many people don't even notice anymore. The free-speech-versus-censorship debates that invariably surround actual pornography do not burn as hot when the underlying principles of porn are filtered more subtly into the mainstream. And those principles, critics say, often involve reducing women to subjugated sex objects while presenting men in dominant roles. Braving the inevitable accusations of prudery -- which they reject -- critics such as Paul are sounding the alarm. They say the current hypersexualized climate distorts the attitudes of young people toward sex and relationships. In particular, they contend it has a damaging effect on the self-image of young women and girls, who are confronted with a culture that objectifies them while disguising it as female empowerment.

*

But the Internet is far from the only venue that does a thriving risque business. From the newsstands peek not just the usual randy suspects (Playboy, Hustler) but also general-interest ''lad mags" such as Maxim, whose covers feature actresses and models in soft-core poses, surrounded by leering headline copy. Even august Harvard University and its neighbor across the Charles River, Boston University, have recently become home to student-run sex magazines. Video games such as Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas were found to contain sexually explicit scenes, and an audience-building buzz surrounded nonporn movies such as ''The Brown Bunny" and ''9 Songs" when it was learned that their actors had real, not simulated, on-screen sex. Howard Stern brought his own obsession with porn to a daily radio audience of millions, and HBO's ''Sex and the City" accustomed TV viewers to racy sexual adventures.

*

She speculates that the current climate is partly ''a backlash to feminism, a way of protecting male egos, and men insisting on retaining a power structure sexually if they can't retain it in areas of employment and parenting and so forth. It's a way to hang on to a male-dominated paradigm." But Eller says there is plenty of blame to go around. She and Pamela Paul point also to a schism in the women's movement several decades ago. Some feminists campaigned against pornography, but others viewed that as tantamount to censorship, or did not want to be perceived as anti-men. It divided the women's movement, they say, at a moment when it could have decisively changed the national dialogue on pornography.

http://www.boston.com/yourlife/articles/2006/01/24/the_pornification_of_america/?page=full

[ismnotwasm]

1. Actually it's worse that that

Porn is something I look over now and again. If you type 'porn' in google you get hundreds of sites. Since I have no interest in downloading anything, I try for pictures, titles of subjects and stories. I do this every few months. What I've noticed, is not only is the porn industry unapologetically racist, it seems to actively promote pedophilia; many of the sites are specifically presenting 'teens having sex' (with the disclaimer all participants are over 18) out of those, I've seen many that look like children, with very small bodies and secondary sex characteristics that seem just developing or almost absent. (especially Pan-Asian women is this common)

Now this is an anecdotal perception from one women, not a scientific study, but still. When I first started doing this was a few years back it was bad, and it seems to me it's getting worse. Stories on one site actually has "ped" in it's code for the type of sex you'll be reading about ( like MMF for multiple males and one female etc.) evidently, this is perfectly legal.

So while Internet porn may not be causing these trends, it certainly reflects the desires of society. The questions are Why? Questions. Why do we need to see "sexy" little girls, as noted in the other thread? Why do mothers and fathers project that on them? Why is in your face skin for women pop artists Damn near required? Why (fill in you own)

Yes it's patriarchy, yes it's sexism but I also believe there is a sexual sickness, a true perversion of unsatisfied need, constant stimulation with little education on sexual matters. Or the wrong kind of education. With all this "empowerment" why are women still faking orgasms? Why are women dressing to please men, but men aren't dressing to please women? The way I look at it is that it is a backlash, not specifically against feminism, but against feminist gains. More women work in a larger variety of jobs, your boss might be a woman. Your co-worker in some area where that was unheard of. Women are excelling in education, those that can afford it. Women are everywhere speaking up, speaking out, giving lectures, being published, asserting their rights. It must frighten certain types and men (and women)to death.

I have noticed, (in culture, not porn) a slight budge in heterosexist presentation for males, not females. I've noticed women being more vocal in what they find attractive, I work around mostly educated women and I've talked to them about what they expect for their daughters, and it's not a life in prostitution, it's the life of an educated women in a valid career choice. These same women, however, buy into pornified ideas such as burlesque being an art form, which it actually is, but I shock them when I say " send a group of drunken frat boys to watch that 'art form' and suddenly they're strippers."
We have a long way to go.

[Tumbulu]

4. Well stated- I agree

and remain baffled and discouraged by the entire progression.

I consider it to be an infection of the imagination whose result is to destroy the chances of real intimacy and cooperation between people.

[loli phabay]

6. i agree its a progression on the web but this stuff has always been around

Its just that its easier for people to find it now.

[seabeyond]

10. this stuff has not always been around. and the stuff that was around was not accessible and used

in the amount it is used today. many more people, and many men did not participate with the stuff of the past, and the amount of time, and the harshness of the porn, that we have today. a lot of different variables.

[loli phabay]

18. no stuff like bdsm has always been around maybe the numbers were less as it was harder to find

But i think its a good thing that people are exploring their sexuality and finding their niche i thinks it more unhealthy to have people who supress their desires.

[seabeyond]

23. i do not know anything about that area, so i dont discuss it. but, that is not really what we are

discussing in this thread. that is a very small group in a relatively controlled environment, before having the net to popularize it. and what i now see are the issues in this community that once again is abusing women. even with women consent. i do see people addressing it within the community. i also see a huge resistence within the community.

but.... what i am seeing that is becoming normalized through this group, into the media is the entertainment and normalization of rape. thru our series and movies and books, in subtle ways.

that is bothersome..... to me, to say the least.

[loli phabay]

27. i understand what you are saying and you would be surprised at how many people have fetishes

The problem is when outsiders try to force their view on the community. I got no problem with you having concerns but it all comes down to consent and if a guy or women consent to be degraded abused tortured or whatever then really thats their concern. Now i understand you dont want it out their in the open but a large part of the community is tbe exhibition and having others seeing the performance and being tittalated by it.

[seabeyond]

31. so, it centers again to the individual self absortion and we all have to deal with it cause of

anothers wants, regardless of the invasion and unhealthy in it at the expense of the whole?

sounding repug to me.

[ismnotwasm]

38. I'm not surprised, knowing several members of an alternate sex club

I'm very good friends with a a few doms and submissives.
One in particular is very responsible, sexually as far as wanting people to know the difference between a true choice and a type of blind idiotic mastubation response. If one is involved in, or wants to be involved in this particular club, there is, first an interview, and if accepted a contact to follow rules. There are code words that are absolute, if you want what is happening to stop, you use that word and it stops--immediately.

These clubs are not the free for all people think. They do have their share of creeps, like anywhere.

My friend herself is a childhood incest survivor, and feels she would never be able to respond sexually in what most of society considers 'normal'. (a history of sexual abuse is quite common in the SMBD community, although by no means universal)

So it's not all shiney happy people expressing their intermost desires. Often, it's about working out deep-rooted personal issues of pain/shame by using pain and shame. It's surprisingly sophisticated, or a least not as simplistic as you are making it sound.

[seabeyond]

41. i started then deleted a post about this. i do not know enough to be able to discuss.

My friend herself is a childhood incest survivor, and feels she would never be able to respond sexually in what most of society considers 'normal'. (a history of sexual abuse is quite common in the SMBD community, although by no means universal)

So it's not all shiney happy people expressing their intermost desires. Often, it's about working out deep-rooted personal issues of pain/shame by using pain and shame. It's surprisingly sophisticated, or a least not as simplistic as you are making it sound.

the little i have picked up of the group.... it left me with what you were saying, in the first part of your post. but, i feel that the highlighted parts of your book is part of the whole

[whathehell]

69. I just noticed something in your post:

"a history of sexual abuse is quite common in the SMBD community, although by no means universal"

Same with prostitutes...Studies differ slightly, but most have shown between

88 and 94 percent abused as children.

[Tumbulu]

58. and far more damaging because of this ease

We are really talking about pollution of the imagination and the porn industry does not have the right to do this to us.

We already have lots of people demanding no more synthetic perfumes be used in public due to serious allergic reactions. I see this in the same way.

To destroy the healthy view of sex because a highly profitable industry wants to make even higher profits?????? but in the process pollutes our spirits and injures women and girls....?

There needs to be some sort of third party certified humane seal if they want to make the claim that the women agreed to be treated in this way. I want independent certifiers like we have in the organic food industry and the humane handling of farm animal industry. And these inspectors are tough on us. That is what the porn industry needs if they want to make these sorts of claims. Third party certified safe and not cruel.

[seabeyond]

7. it is a backlash, not specifically against feminism, but against feminist gains.

i think this is exactly it. men can no longer control and dominate in independence and freedom in choice and the way to do it now is the be all, end all of male sexuality used to control and dominate women. women stepping into this world are handing their sexuality to me to control. you do not see the men equally handing over their sexuality. it is all theirs and all about them. the universe rotates around the male sexuality. that is where we have come to today.

i watched msnbc entrap pedos a couple times when it was stuck on the channel and came on. before switching tv off, i would watch a little. to me, it is feeding this, promoting, culturing the desire for. i think we are creating a lot of this. and in what you say, for the ever sexualized younger child. i really do believe we are creating.

we are seeing a much more aggressive line in the roles of actual sex among the genders than ever before. a continual harping that men NEED and women provide.

my husband had a conversation with youngest at 14 about porn. i was in my room and could hear. he told him, forget how your mom feels about porn. let me tell you why i will not have it in my house. he went on to tell him, that much of this porn is forcing a girl. that we do not know what is happening behind the camera. that we think the girl is willing, we do not know that she is. he would not have that in his house, being a part of this.

i had never considered this.

i did some research. it is very hard to find forced online sex tape ARTICLES. i actually thought i had found an article and clicked into it. what i saw i cannot unsee. it is there. it was so disgusting disrespectful what was being done to girls bodies, it disgusted me. that this is what men are jacking off to. and what they cannot unsee either.

[loli phabay]

9. oh oh here we go ;) i am going to agree and disagree with you

What if the girl or guy wants what you see as degrading done to them. Its no secret that i am a member of another forum were you will find thousands of women looking for the exact thing that the other poster described as disgusting. You have to be open to the idea that human sexuality comes in all forms and there are some things that i find hard to understand but as long as its consensual inunderstand that different people love different types of sexual activities and we allnhave different kinks that some people will condemn.

[seabeyond]

12. and that will go back to the post you made to redq about a womans "right"

that you so conveniently were obtuse about.

you would have to understand the whole structure, see the world as a whole and not an individual want.... me me me perspective. and see how it effects the whole. if you are unwilling to do that, then you will never be able to look beyond your own wants and needs. what kind of world does that make for all of us to live in? you wouldn't know or even consider cause your view is incapable of seeing beyond self.

an no, i do not know what you are talking about your board of lots of women doing whatever.

[loli phabay]

17. isnt the individual want important especially with something so intrinsict as desires

Isnt individual rights matter or should we just pretend that a lot of people consent to what would be considered deviant. Would you be okay if porn was available by members only

[seabeyond]

25. imporant, ya. how about in the times of slavery, when the house slaves were much more comfortable

in their position and treated better in their position of oppression than the field slaves. and said.... leave it alone. we are fine. k.... i am fine. i do not need you to be causing problems. individual want over the whole.

democrat/republican

the house wife in the 50's, middle class and upper middle class. leave it alone feminists, cause we are fine. dont rock the boat and mess up our world. abortion rights for all, equal pay, no sexual harassment in the work force. individual or the whole.

democrat/republican.

dont take my taxes to help out the whole. as an individual, it behooves me you leave my taxes alone.

[loli phabay]

29. difference is consent. the community is all about consent and hates the abuses as much as hou

[seabeyond]

32. you are harping on bdsm. i dont care about that. i am not discussing that. this post is not

about this. we are talking about pornification of america. i am not talking about bdsm.

i am discussing the majority of the hetro male porn that is all about dehumanizing and degrading women to get them off.

[seabeyond]

14. but, then again loli, you really addressed nothing that i actually posted. please take note of the

consistent manner when arguing this issue that the porn lover never addresses what is being said. starts up a different angle. and i consistently respond to what YOU are sayin. in each and ever post.

[loli phabay]

19. lol yes maam sorry about that as i said i understand were you are coming from

Its just that i dont get why you lump consensual and nonconsensual together. I amnalso not sure if you guys see a difference between say a guy giving deep throat and a women if both enjoy doing it on camera. As i said before i am not into fighting just trying to understand a different part of the culture. Thanks ps if i start pissing you off im me and i will go annoy tbe lounge

[seabeyond]

28. do you "know" that she is enjoying it. or is she desperate and allows because she is

desperate.

do you know she wants to do this, or is a bf, husband, behind the camera intimidating her to do, so she puts a smile on the camera.

do you know if she has other options, but because she was sexually abused as a child, a victim of sexual abuse, this is a norm for her and a continual abuse.

do you know if she has any say or control

do you know..... anything about her willingness.

do you know that the girl is not part of an ever growing sex slave ring taken from her home and no control over her life but to be used, hurt and abused for mans entertainment.

have you considered how this effects your daughters life, the relationship that she will have when she grows up

have you considered and read about the effects on our young boys, allowing them to have a healthy and exciting sex life with a REAL WOMAN.

does society teach our girls at the youngest of age that submissiveness is their role as a female and fathers and others reinforce this

does society teach our young boys that their role as a man is to consider only their sexuality and a woman is their for their use.


it is really easy to simply say.... hey, adults doing what they want. without any consideration or thought put into it. when actually thinking about all the variables, many i have not ever stated, then it is not so easy to simply say, adults doing what they want. the difference between the thinking person and the self absorbed person.

[Tumbulu]

54. Do you realize that some parents teach their children

about sex by showing them porn? I am not kidding, I've read about this again and again in newspaper accounts and have heard about it from horrified parents as well.

That children and young adults then think that this is what sex is about- hurting and torturing?

What ever happened to people being equals and loving and supportive to each other? Was this some hallucination of my generation?

I do not care that you think that you need this. Your need to be stimulated is not of any interest to me. I care what is out on the public airwaves for anyone to be exposed to. Images that degrade an entire sex are more than wrong, they are destructive and dangerous.

You can do what you want, in private But putting torture on public airwaves is not free speech, it is propaganda designed to keep the female enslaved and degraded.

[redqueen]

11. +1

And your husband's thoughtful insight about porn gives me hope.

[Tumbulu]

55. Yes, I agree (nt)

[Moonwalk]

101. Actually, it's not the drunken frat boys that turn burlesque dancers into strippers...

Your quote >I shock them when I say " send a group of drunken frat boys to watch that 'art form' and suddenly they're strippers."<

Well, I wouldn't be shocked, and I wouldn't agree. I'm amazed that no one has countered your point. Look, I put on a performance art piece. It is art, and it's for artists and art people to appreciate. It involves me running around on stage, stripping naked, dancing, etc. Drunken frat boys sneak in--they hoot and jeer. Is my performance piece now a strip show? No. It's not. The drunk frat boys are not the audience I intended to show the piece to--and, in fact, those I'm showing it to don't view it as stripping--and my performance isn't intended to cater only to pornographic desires, no more then Botticelli's "Birth of Venus" is intended to only cater to the viewers' pornographic desires--though it may, of course cater to such in some viewers. And I, myself, do not view my performance art piece as stripping.

So why do only the drunken frat boys get to define what I'm doing?

Likewise, I would counter that the burlesque done as "art" isn't done for drunken frat boys, and isn't done as stripping--i.e. intended to present pornographic fantasies in order to get a bunch of bills tucked into a g-string and maybe get invited to perform a lap dance for more money. So why should it be viewed as "stripping" rather than art even if drunken frat boys arrive to jeer at it?

It might be very close to splitting hairs, but what the dancer intends, and what the audience she intends it for expects do matter and do change the definition of what she is doing and why. A stripper knows what she is doing, why she is doing it, and who she is doing it for; she won't say she's doing burlesque. She will say she's stripping. So I don't think your comment that a bunch of drunken frat boys can turn the burlesque woman into a stripper is valid. The drunken frat boys can no more turn a work of burlesque art into stripping then they can turn that Botticelli into pornography, no matter how much they leer at it.

[redqueen]

107. I always thought of burlesque as middle class stripping.

Privileged women doing a sanitized version of what all too often much less privileged women do out of necessity.

[loli phabay]

2. would say that this does not describe the vastness of the porn industry

Does vay porn reflect badly on women or porn were women are dominent. If someone sets up their own webcam and then performs for an audience whether for mo ey or free are they the one being exploited or is it a free choice. Now i know there are people forced into pkrn but so much nowadays is a ailable that is consensual and serves the kink of both watcher and performer.

[boston bean]

3. This is an easy one.

Porn where women have penises shoved down their throat until they puke, and are choked, and are physically and emotionally abused.

I think that is what is being referred to.

[loli phabay]

5. what if that is the performers fetish. you know that no matter how extreme it is some people are in

To it both. Ale and female

[redqueen]

16. Many exiting performers end up with PTSD.

It would really help if people would stop ignoring anyone who didn't say what the PR companies want us to hear.

But then many men say victims of date rape are just regretting their choices, so ... I guess it isn't too surprising that that type of 'logic' would be used to dismiss the claims of exiting porn stars who are critical of this multi billion dollar industry.

[loli phabay]

20. but are these performers the vroups im talking about

Ople who enjoy performing in front of tbeir webcam or at parties. Not all porn is professioal in fact nowadays most is amateur.

[redqueen]

21. Sorry, I have no interest in narrowing the focus in order to ignore abuses. nt

[loli phabay]

24. you dont need to ignore the abuse. you know you have an ally in the community

People who practice things such as bdsm are as much against the abuse as you are because the feather tars all and everyone is accused of being an abuser rather than a participant.

[redqueen]

26. I was referring to abuse in mainstream porn.

I'm sure many participants in the BDSM community are concerned about and strive to eliminate the tolerance for non consensual abuse in that community, but I was not referring to performers in BDSM porn specifically. Abuse and humiliation of women is commonly featured in mainstream porn now, presented as material to arouse viewers. Not to mention what goes on behind the scenes.

[loli phabay]

30. yup i agree thats why broad brush approaches wont work

[Tumbulu]

59. So what about a certified humane seal of some form with

third party certifiers making sure that it really is safe and not coerced and not painful?

The industry is huge enough, why not get third party certification?

[loli phabay]

79. a phenominal idea would have no problem with this

Problem would be you cant regulate all the amateur porn out there. I suppose you could have self certificaion for the self filmers but you would still have the argument that the consent wasnt really given.

[Tumbulu]

83. So, can you start this- those who like porn should not buy any UNTIL

It is certified "SAFE AND HUMANE" by a third party.

Can you demand this of your suppliers?

Perhaps you can start a certification organization- register a trademark?

[loli phabay]

86. buy it. does anybody buy porn anymore. i cant remember how long ago i had to by porn

There are millions of people out there giving it away for free. Thats actually a good thing as you then have no one forcing them to do it to bring in money. If all payments apart from voluntary could be taken out of the industry then you would take exploitation out of the online porn at least. I am at the moment a member of a forum with many and i mean many more members than du and and all if not almost all have their own porn displayed.

[Tumbulu]

87. well then if it is all free, how is there such a huge industry

then, that is profitable?

How can the "for profit" industry be cleaned up ?

Do you have any ideas? Is this issue talked about in your other forum? Do people care about humane treatment of the folks being filmed?

[loli phabay]

88. this is a big issue across the board. i got no idea why anyone would pay for it

As everything you could possibly imagine is out the free. I think a big part of the problem is that a lot of stuff is in the shadows and their is stigma attached. Its not easy to explain to your family or co workers that you enjoy frinstance scatplay or dressing as an animal (furries. I dont get that one). So people look to the shadows when if you step out their are clubs and organisationsnyou can join and get willing participants in whatever you are into. Personally i think the for profit part of porn will eventually wither as the world advances and people realise you dont need to pay.

[Tumbulu]

89. What steps do these forums take to make sure children don't wander into them?

Also, the industry is huge and is profitable, this seem undisputed.

So, the issue remains, what steps can your industry take to ensure that it is safe and torture free?

[loli phabay]

90. well at least nonconsenual torture free

As i said yes there is money in porn at the moment but the more free stuff out there the less people willn pay. All the effort should be instopping the forced stuff and letting people do what they want with their bodies and those images.

[Tumbulu]

94. But how do you keep minors off of these free forums?

How do you self police what you are involved in?

If torture is consensual is it still not torture?

Should images of torture be available for anyone to see?

I do not think so, I think that it is polluting to the mind and soul and should not be in the public domain.

How do you keep this private, what are your mechanisms?

[loli phabay]

95. keeping minors off is the main problem but sex is probuably not the worst thing they have access to

When they are online. As to the polluting thing i guess that comes down to your personal beliefs not everyone sees images of severe bondage etc as something evil. So yes any adult should be able to access any images they want as long as its consensual and not involving kids etc. I have a question for you would you object to say me putting video or images of myself online with access to who i want or is it to much for you. Secondly what if those images were of severe bondaage or extreme orgies would tbat be different. Thanks

[Tumbulu]

96. If you cannot keep minors off it then you

are ethically responsible for getting rid of the forums. And certainly not participating.

I do not share your opinion that it is not traumatizing to see violence associated with sex- and exactly what this OP was about. You may think porn is OK, I do not and I do not think that children who are still forming their ideas about what sex will be for them should be harmed by images of the violent/degrading/scary sort.

I absolutely have no interest in seeing you or anyone else - especially in sexual poses. I consider images of torture or bondage to be criminal- as that is what they portray. If the images are confined to only the particular people- not the public, then it is not my issue or business. It is when it becomes public, or something that a child could stumble upon.

Images are powerful for many humans, my daughter accidentally saw some images from "Ripley's Believe it or Not" and she cried and had nightmares for a month. She is 11. What would happen if she saw people torturing each other and calling it sex?

We live on a farm and she has seen animals breeding her entire life. Normal breeding and porn is completely different. In fact this is one of my objection to it. It is not natural for humans to torture each other. It should not be encouraged or amplified. And calling torture sex makes it even more confusing.

[loli phabay]

97. i guess the first thing you should be doing is stopping ripleys believe it or not

Then the millions of other sites or probuably easier to keep your daughter offline or use a filter. How is bondage criminal if its consenting adults.

[redqueen]

99. Porn sites of all kinds do far too little to restrict access.

Simply clicking a button that says 'yes I'm over 18' is not enough.

These sites are doing very well and can afford to pay for the design and implementation of more effective controls.

[seabeyond]

100. even worse, pro porn was peddling there crap for acceptance they were adament that it needed to

stay away from the kids. a decade later, they now say, what is the problems? boys being boys. they need to learn about sex. it is in their biology. what is wrong with kids seeing sex and naked bodies? nature.

they have totally shifted their argument from somewhat responsible to totally derelict in responsibility cause they KNOW it is out of control. AND they refuse to admit, acknowledge any kind of harm to the performers or the user because it interferes with their play.

[redqueen]

102. How asinine...

as if the portrayal of sex in the overwhelming majority of porn was in any way a depiction of sex between equals.

[Tumbulu]

104. Bingo!

That is the problem- and why it is a pollution of the imagination. And destructive to real relationships.

[loli phabay]

106. that is the problem you have a defined idea of real relationships

Not everyone thinks that the standard mf relationship is the ideal. We are complex beings with many different wants and needs and ideaso of what is our real relationship.

[Tumbulu]

108. I never said MF I said loving and respectful

and cooperative and not violent or criminal.

If your ideal of a mf relationship is cruelty and suffering and torture, then this is too bad and in fact it is something that is illegal. It is called assault and battery. It is a criminal offense. It should not be glorified or trivialized.

[redqueen]

110. In fairness I do see some of the engaging in the fetishization of dominance

is a form of therapy. Maybe not all. But at least some, maybe more than many think. A lot of that stuff is deeply repressed.

However I suspect that applies only to people engaging in it personally... not using images or descriptions of humiliation or degradation as masturbation fodder. Much less actual torture.

[seabeyond]

111. what? like self medication with alcohol and drugs when you are bi polar or other

disease?

doesnt work

[Tumbulu]

103. You have not answered my question about keeping minors

off and out of your forums.

You need to answer that if you wish to continue a discussion with me.

[loli phabay]

105. ßorry i thought i had in so far as saying that every effort should be taken but like ripleys

Unless you take away the whole internet or no kids allowed you cant stop every incursion but only work to stop it. There may be a tech answer using biometrics or something but i dont know if thats feasible. Problemis if you get your way whats to stop other groups claiming that other stuff should be off limits. Whether you like it or not the internet is going to have shit loads of stuff you may kot like i personally know theres stuff i dont like but i also know unless i shut down the entire net then its going to happen.

[Tumbulu]

109. No, if you are posting illegal acts

assault and battery, violence, etc, then you need to make sure that minors are not viewing it. And if you cannot technically do this, then don't post things like this to the public.

It is your responsibility, not mine.

[seabeyond]

33. do you know what is happening behind that camera/ do you know it is not a sex slave, kidnapped and

controlled by a pimp and without a life but to perform for you to jack off to?

do you get that a lot of the sex slave trade that has really escalated is getting a room and FORCING these girls to perform and labeled "amatuer" when really it is no regulation or oversight.

[whathehell]

56. Thank you...n/t

[CrispyQ]

65. +1

And I think I love your husband! (from your post above.)

[seabeyond]

78. i have never known

the man to knowingly hurt another person. he seems so non-insightful, lol.... you know, not connected thru introspection. but, he is right on, from a different angle, on so many issues. it is great being so different because i get different angles to look at an issue. we come at them in different ways and almost always meet at the same place.

[boston bean]

39. There are many women this has happened to where it is NOT their fetish.

So, if you want to ignore that and call it a slippery slope of losing free speech, I guess you can do that. I assume that is what you are saying.

I appreaciate your posts to the group, and the conversation, but please understand it does get tiring and boring, answering all of these questions over and over and over and over again, and have the discussion take a turn to things that were not even within its purview or scope.

If you would like to discuss from the angle that these abuses do take place, please do. If you refuse to see that, or better yet, do not believe that abuse takes place, sooner or later, people in the group are just going to stop responding, because we've heard and read all the derailments on this topic, ad infinitum.

[seabeyond]

8. i have said this repeatedly. pro porn continue to ask the question. i will tell them, and the next

week they will ask again. like they have a fuckin gotcha moment. that is why i do not have discussions on this any longer with porn enthusiasts. they are not looking for open discussion. they are all about protecting their porn.

heterosexual porn is all about degrading, dehumanizing women. that is the purpose and intent. that is what hetro male jack off to. that is what porn makers know men want. and that is what they give them. enough studies have made it clear enough. it is not even an arguable point.


A cruel edge: The painful truth about today's pornography -- and what men can do about it

One of the 10 scenes in the film begins with a woman and man having a picnic in a park. He jokes about wanting to use the romantic moment to make love to her mouth, and then stands and thrusts into her mouth while she sits on the blanket. Two other men who walk by join in. Saying things such as “Pump that face, pump that fucking face,” “All the way down, choke, choke,” and “That’s real face fucking,” they hold her head and push harder. One man grabs her hair and pulls her head into his penis in what his friend calls “the jackhammer.” At this point she is grimacing and seems in pain. She then lies on the ground, and the men approach her from behind. “Eat that whole fucking dick. … You little whore, you like getting hurt,” one says, as her face is covered with saliva. “Do you like getting your face fucked?” one asks. She can’t answer. “Open your mouth if you like it,” he says, and she opens her mouth. After they all ejaculate into her mouth, the semen flows out onto her body. After the final ejaculation, she reaches quickly for the wine glass, takes a large drink, and looks up at her boyfriend, and says, “God, I love you baby.” Her smile fades to a pained look of shame and despair.

*

When the legal restrictions on pornography slowly receded through the 1970s and ‘80s, and the presentation of sex on the screen was by itself no longer quite so illicit, anal sex became a standard feature. Anal sex was seen as something most women don’t want; it had an edge to it. When anal sex became routine in pornography, the gonzo genre started pushing the boundaries into things like double-penetrations and gag-inducing oral sex – again, acts that men believe women generally will not want. The more pornography becomes normalized and mainstreamed, the more pornography has to search for that edge. And that edge most commonly is cruelty, which emotionally is the easiest place to go for men, given that the dynamic of male domination and female submission is already in place in patriarchy.

This analysis is not news to the industry. As Jerome Tanner put it during a pornography directors’ roundtable discussion featured in Adult Video News, “People just want it harder, harder, and harder, because like Ron said, what are you gonna do next?” Another director, Jules Jordan, was blunt about his task: “[O]ne of the things about today’s porn and the extreme market, the gonzo market, so many fans want to see so much more extreme stuff that I’m always trying to figure out ways to do something different. But it seems everybody wants to see a girl doing a d.p. now or a gangbang. For certain girls, that’s great, and I like to see that for certain people, but a lot of fans are becoming a lot more demanding about wanting to see the more extreme stuff. It’s definitely brought porn somewhere, but I don’t know where it’s headed from there.” Director Mitchell Spinelli, interviewed while filming the first video (“Give Me Gape”) for a series for his new Acid Rain company, seemed clear where it was heading: “People want more. They want to know how many dicks you can shove up an ass,” he says with a shrug. “It’s like Fear Factor meets Jackass. Make it more hard, make it more nasty, make it more relentless. The guys make the difference. You need a good guy, who’s been around and can give a good scene, fuckin’ ‘em hard. I did my homework. These guys are intense.”

*

This all would be easier if we could pretend that these images are consumed by some small subset of deviant men -- if we could answer the question “what kind of men like those things” by pointing to emotionally disturbed men, or pathological men who have some problem that could explain this. Then we could identify and isolate those bad men, maybe repair them. But the answer to the question is: Men like me. Men like all of us. Men who can’t get a date and men who have all the dates they could want. Men who live alone and men who are married. Men who grew up in liberal homes in which pornography was never a big deal and men who grew up in strict religious homes in which no talk of sex was allowed. White and black and brown and any-other-color-you-can-imagine men. Rich men and poor men. And all the king’s men. I am not suggesting all men use pornography, or that all men who use pornography want material in which women are hurt and humiliated, or that all men who use pornography are bound to then want to hurt and humiliate women. I am simply saying that much of the pornography in the United States records scenes of women being hurt and humiliated; that men masturbate to orgasm to those images; and that those men are not deviants but are acting on the cultural norms that are widely taught. And I am suggesting that these facts should matter to us; they should scare us.

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/pornography&cruelty.htm

[loli phabay]

13. we are goint to argue over this as i disagree with you in some ways

Its not about protecting porn its about protecting the things that some people do sexually. Not everyone is into the being in love or having attraction there are people who just love the sexual acts and yes the degrading or dominance or submission. You will never change it as its humannnature and trying to supress peoples sexjal appetittes as long as tbeir consensjal will e a losing battle.

[seabeyond]

15. so, women being hurt for mens entertainment just does not matter to you at all. got it. nt

[loli phabay]

22. no thats not what i said. i said people enjoy all sorts of stuff its like sports

In that you may hate football but others love it. Sex is tbe same bdsm may be abhorrent to you but as i said do a google and you will find millions who are into it big time. It all comes down tonconsensual or not to me.

[seabeyond]

34. so, we as a people will ignore the mydrid of abuses going on for the few that are enjoying it AND

ignore the conditioning in society with both our genders that end up doing damage to all.

we will wrap it all up in a pretty bow, not look at any of the damage and pretend everything is lite, and willing, and acceptable.

come on. again, the thinking and the nonthinking protecting agenda.

[seabeyond]

35. point. i gave you an article that clearly points out the pain and destruction of girls to make your

films you enjoy. and you ignored it. no concern. no comment. no thought. just the defense.

how can you say that it is a bottom line of the pain of another does not matter? how can it be anything else?

[ismnotwasm]

43. I don't think it's human nature as much as human damage

SMBD, whether moderate bondage or extreme scat, is more about dominance and submission than sex. Orgasm is used as tool or a by-product. For many people as I tried to state before, it's a form of therapy.

And it's a shortcut, a impatience with sex and sexuality that leaves out much of the spirit/emotion that is involved in really, really good sex and focuses on the physical and psychological.

We ARE repressed sexually, women are objectified because of this repression not despite it--and pornography is the ultimate evidence of it; or there would be no need sex-as-violence. Porn is a direct result of feelings of 'I'm a dirty little boy' prior to sex. The porn industry exploits this.(Sex is a powerful money making tool. I've always been amused by liberal porn apologists who ignore that the pornography indusry is in the top part of the 1%, and always deny they've been manipulated.)

That's why it's repetitious and boring after a while for those who evolve sexually.

[Tejas]

36. I fail to see the problem, other countries do fine with it.

[seabeyond]

37. really? that would be france that virtually no one files rape, they wear wedding rings to work to

avoid sexual harassment and the husband feels they can fuck anyone they want and the women just have to suck it up because it is who the man is in a much greater patriarchal society than we have?

or in italy where the president is fuckin teens in orgies and the tv is all about near naked young women with middle aged ugly ass men tearing them apart, humiliating them, putting them in cages and under tables, on a regular basis and the women are fed up marching against it in an even more patriarchal environment that the u.s.?

or the escalation of sex slave trafficking in countries where there is legalization of prostitution because the demand is so great and not enough women want to be prostitutes so they have to kidnap girls from other countries to supply?

or maybe it would be sweden that has decided they will prosecute the pimp and jon and decriminalize the prostitute?
or netherlands that have passed a law not allowing companies to sexualize women to sell product?

[ismnotwasm]

40. What countries? N/t

[whathehell]

68. Of course you "fail to see the problem"

If you're a guy, you've probably been BENEFITTING from it

[ismnotwasm]

42. Reading through this thread

Its reminded me about the history of feminism, the history of women and the history of porn.

When women were still more or less property, in the Victorian age, but glimmers of feminism to come could be seen, and pornography was illegal, underground porn was well distributed. What it contained, was scene after scene of virginal young women as submissives; they were whipped spanked, required to perform for a variety of men. Anal sex was common because men back then didn't want to spoil vaginal virginity. It's pretty wild. What is most interesting, is porn, while written was almost exclusively used by men.


So, Women have had the "choice" to participate in their own objectification(not a true choice; you can't choose to be objectified when you're born objectified)only recently.

[PamKlaus]

44. I agree with this thread.

-Edwin Meese

[seabeyond]

45. oh pam, old friend, old pal. it is so good to see you. it has been so long

and i miss you so....

really? this is all you got.

[PamKlaus]

46. Would you pass the The Bechdel Test?

[seabeyond]

50. piece of cake. not that you would recognize nor acknowledge the threads i am in that have nothing

to do with feminism. that does not meet your agenda. but, yes. i do.

[PamKlaus]

53. It took you 35 minutes to come up with this, old friend?

[boston bean]

61. Why are you talking to yourself?

[seabeyond]

62. this poster has zoomed in on me since the first post on du. seems to find me on threads to call out

harmless really in the stupid. but, i am curious who this sock belongs to.

my very own stalker, lol.

[PamKlaus]

72. Zoomed? Since my first post, really?

I believe that you're exaggerating a little, I have nothing against you but I admit that I like to tease you a little. Sorry that it happened on a bad day. Here's a thread where you didn't seem to find me so stalkerish and actually agreed with me (that thing was totally horrifying!):

http://betterment.democraticunderground.com/1002577510#post32

PS: What's that weird URL? betterment?

[seabeyond]

74. i was trying to get past it and welcoming. i had only experienced you one previous time. i do that

i give people lots of chances. since, you have been pretty clear.

whatever.... you have given nothing that benefits discussion, only derail. and mostly childish.

[PamKlaus]

81. "mostly childish"

Hum, well when you're talking to a kid you have to get to their level you know.

[seabeyond]

82. perfect example, lol. are we done yet? nt

[PamKlaus]

70. Oops!

Sorry. I think that I have the iverglas syndrome.

[sufrommich]

66. Hmmmm, responding to yourself? Someone

forgot to sign out their sock puppet.

[seabeyond]

71. ooooh, that is what happened. see, i am just not sneaking and creepy enough to figure this shit out.

that is exactly what happened. i bet if i went back to the other stalking posts and look to see who replied and agreed with this poster, i would know who it is. ohhhhhhhh. that is so funky. when i have time.







thank you. love it.

worth a hidden post if that is what must be

you are smart.

[PamKlaus]

76. You're being pretty agresive seabeyond.

Why is that?

[seabeyond]

77. aggressive? nah.... more a chuckle. i know the net makes it hard to know.....

and some choose to assume.

but, i dont have issue with aggressive. i often am. just kinda sorta..... who i am

and who are you?

[PamKlaus]

80. "Who are you?"

I'm Pam. Who are you?

[boston bean]

84. You are obviously here to cause disruption.

Go tell it on the mountain, that you were blocked.

[hlthe2b]

91. Blocked from HOF and ultimately PPR'd as a previously banned disruptor...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=280945&sub=trans

[seabeyond]

92. i am so curious who it was. first post to me, i was asking.... nt

[boston bean]

98. great news! Thanks for the info! nt

[hlthe2b]

112. Poster Marcel has likewise left the building

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=263208&sub=trans

[redqueen]

113. Better late than never, I guess. nt

[hlthe2b]

114. They had been banned from HOF since their one post here...

We remove them from block once they have been PPR'd from DU. This is just a heads up for anyone who might be confused as to why they no longer appear on the block listing.

[boston bean]

48. You are Edwin Meese?

[PamKlaus]

49. Let me explain:

This---> - Is usually put at the end of a quote next to the name of the quoted person, therefore no, I am not that slimeball.

[boston bean]

60. Why would you be posting a pic of such a slimeball here, and have that slime ball thanking someone.

Did you post it to try and attack a poster in this thread?

If so, that would be against SOP and I request that you stop.

[PamKlaus]

73. OK.

I won't post any picture of this slime-ball ever again in HoF.

[Major Hogwash]

47. MHP talked about this on her program a couple of weeks ago.

It was an interesting dialogue between Melissa Harris Perry, Dyson, and 2 other guests on her program.

[seabeyond]

51. we were talking about that in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12557664

you reminded me and i found the video of it. i watched a bit.... but, i am not thinking it is gonna be a clip i want to watch. but, i will. maybe i will be pleasently surprised. is it all one sided, or are they discussing both sides? i will check it out and put it in the other thread tomorrow.

thanks

i found all her segments. this is a gold mine.

[whathehell]

57. I agree with the authors, especially on these two points made in the last paragraph here..

"She speculates that the current climate is partly ''a backlash to feminism, a way of protecting male egos, and men insisting on retaining a power structure sexually if they can't retain it in areas of employment and parenting and so forth. It's a way to hang on to a male-dominated paradigm." But Eller says there is plenty of blame to go around. She and Pamela Paul point also to a schism in the women's movement several decades ago. Some feminists campaigned against pornography, but others viewed that as tantamount to censorship, or did not want to be perceived as anti-men. It divided the women's movement, they say, at a moment when it could have decisively changed the national dialogue on pornography".

I was around during those days...I joined up with "Women Against Pornography" in New York which was started by, among others, Susan Brownmiller who wrote the prize-winning book on rape: "Against Our Will".


The lack of critical thinking displayed by some First Amendment Absolutist "feminists" amazes me.

[seabeyond]

63. whathehell (i love your name),

thank you for the info about the past and what happened. that is interesting.

It divided the women's movement, they say, at a moment when it could have decisively changed the national dialogue on pornography".

[whathehell]

67. You do?...I sometimes get snarky comments saying:

"You certainly live up to your name", or some shit...I point out

that the phrase can be interpreted any number of ways.

Your welcome on the history stuff...That's what we old people

are for, right, LOL?

[seabeyond]

75. wtf and wth are two of my favorite

questions are good. some people have issues with questions. me? i like them

[whathehell]

85. Yeah...Me too..as I guess is obvious!

[sufrommich]

64. +1. nt