Shaming men for not being "manly"

[redqueen]

Seriously why is this still a thing?

People wouldn't dream of laughing at a woman just because she liked to wear camo print clothing. You wouldn't see many people openly yukking it up over her wearing 'manly' clothes, so why is it still so common to hear boys and men being shamed by calling the stuff they do/wear/enjoy 'girly'.

And it's almost always 'girly'. Not 'womanly'. Like the worst thing in the world to be like is a girl.

Fucking pisses me off.

And I know a lot of people just dismiss this as not a big deal but I swear it is at the root of so much bullshit.

The central idea is that things defined as being in the purview of females are beneath males. (I know everyone on this group knows this already.) That is a hateful, toxic idea and it has to die. Like, yesterday.


Eddie Izzard setting some morons straight: "They're not women's clothes. They're my clothes. I bought them."

[ismnotwasm]

1. One thing I like about Seattle

Last edited Fri Aug 15, 2014, 02:24 PM - Edit history (1)

Although it's by and large not much different than anywhere else, we do have a contingent of males who wear what the fuck they want, or rather, men and women dress much the same as a 'fashion', and don't seem to separate themselves out so much.

[redqueen]

2. Signs of progress...

I wish I understood why so many people are so accepting of this bullshit.

That commercial where the guy freaks out after using women's body wash is aimed at women. Women are perpetuating this shit apparently without a single critical thought about what they're participating in. I expect it from fundie right wing women who subscribe to the idea that women really are subservient to men. But WTF? Not many of the other kind must be complaining about those kinds of ads.

[ismnotwasm]

3. My husband is watching Jeopardy.

There was a question about about 'being disgusted with he Vulgate, this person took 'group of virgins' to Antioch'' ( total paraphrase)!!!

I said to my husband-see the sexism there? He said "No". I said "they just referred to a number of women as 'virgins'-- not human beings, not even women virgins"--the answer, Jerome, is a long and interesting story (wiki is shitty on this one)

But I used the example to point out that no one would think it's a big deal to refer to a group of women this way, that their essential virginity was more important than their essential humanness--not back then, although that may be true-- but today, in a bland, inoffensive game show. My husband is always open to these conversations, and had a "oh yeah" moment. I said it happens all the time. He said give me another example. I immediately said 'women drivers'--he stopped doing that years ago, because I asked him " what do you call bad male drivers, besides "motherfuckers or something? They get a gender pass?

This happens thousand of times in our language, essentially people just don't think about it. Probably why it gets worse and worse-- to 'other' women even further. Again the commercial tie, which is by no means the only tie.

[redqueen]

4. "This happens thousand of times in our language, "

Exactly! And it insidiously reinforces the patriarchy and so few seem to notice and even those who do mostly don't care because it's 'not a big deal'

[eridani]

11. Lousy translation. Should have been "young woman" n/t

[lovemydog]

15. Speaking only from my personal experience,

it kind of seemed like a couple of things. First, guys who would accuse me of 'acting like a fag' or would talk in that way often had deep shame inside themselves of leaning homosexual. Like they were afraid they might be gay so they would boisterously criticize gay guys loudly and often. Second, it was sometimes something jealous inside themselves because I often dated attractive women, so they were looking for a way of putting me down. I've kind of stopped trying too hard to figure it out though. I just don't like men like that, so I do my best to avoid them now, lol. This might not answer your questions directly, but hey I felt like sharing here. Maybe I'm still trying to figure it out too!

[MadrasT]

5. I think most of it is misogyny

And a smaller proportion is aimed at gender role enforcement.

I do get shit for being a female bodied person who wears men's clothing much of the time. But I don't think it is nearly the level of hostility that male bodied persons get for wearing clothing thought to be 'female'.

It all makes my head spin. What the fuck is with people policing other people's clothing and gender expression? Not. Their Business.

Female bodied folks do have more freedom to be gender nonconforming and that makes me feel sad.

[redqueen]

6. I agree... definitely misogyny.

And my apologies - I didn't intend to erase your experiences... I noted that it's just much more common to see this leveled at men who step outside their assigned gender box. I should have said it's much more hostile.

[MadrasT]

7. Oh, no I did not feel erased. But thank you. Agreed on all points. n/t

[laundry_queen]

8. It bothers me too

and it starts from the beginning, with parents teaching this to their little boys. I had a friend who had several daughters and then had a baby boy. She was okay with him playing with dolls and dressing up in princess outfits to show she was not going to 'be one of those parents' who was intolerant, yet when I showed her a catalog of kids' clothes, and showed her some of the cute stuff, she didn't like it because the 'light blue' was 'too girly' for him and that she always dressed him in 'boy colors'. WTF? He's a baby! She's not the first parent I've run into like that. I knew someone who didn't like red on their son because it was too close to pink. I only ever saw her little boy dressed in navy blue, green and brown. It is taught right from the start that 'female' clothing or colors are inferior or something.

There is a young girl at my daughter's bus stop that wears 'boy' clothing and has a short hair cut. I didn't actually know she was a girl at first until I heard her name. No one ridicules her. No one even pays much attention to it. Somehow I can't imagine it would be the same if a boy decided to grow his hair long and wear frilly dresses to school.


It has to start from the beginning. We have to make it okay for a boy to wear a dress to school if he wants.

[redqueen]

9. Yes ... we have to break this addiction to trying to associate "girl" with "inferior".

One rationalization I've heard often is that if parents don't prevent their male offspring from demonstrating any 'girly' tendencies at all - speech, clothing, toy or accessory preferences, etc. - that the other kids will make fun of him / beat him up.

But this only sends the message that there's something wrong with so-called 'girly' things.

And to back up what Madras said above, my daughter likes blue clothes and also lots of typically 'boy' things - and she did get shit for it sometimes. Not as much as a boy would, and not as hateful - but it was there.

BUT! And this is a BIG BUT! If I had stopped her from wearing those clothes, she would have interpreted that as reinforcing this gender crap. Instead she learned that some people are fucked in the head when it comes to issues of what girls and boys are 'supposed' to like/do.

Too many kids are having that shit reinforced - at least as far as 'girly' things are concerned.

[nomorenomore08]

10. Eddie Izzard is great. And he doesn't look too bad in make-up and a skirt, either.

And yes, I agree there's a lot of neurotic stuff around gender roles that we, as a culture, need to get the fuck over already.

[el_bryanto]

12. Yes - this is 100% correct

I had a shirt that was red but faded to a reddish pink, and got some unfortunate responses from my coworkers - drove me nuts. It's just a shirt.

I keep waiting for the new world of fashion that sci-fi comics have suggested is coming - but I still wear dull suits and white shirts.

Bryant

[freshwest]

13. Don't take it the wrong way, but at times I think I'm too freakish to post at HOF.

[redqueen]

14. Aw, what makes you say that?