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hill2016

(1,772 posts)
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 08:49 PM Dec 2015

My biggest problem with Sanders is that he promises a lot of free stuff, paid by other people

Last edited Mon Dec 28, 2015, 10:01 PM - Edit history (1)

I absolutely hate politicians who do that.

(1) Look at how ACA was passed. All the benefits were promised upfront but all the costs were hidden. Why do you think the Cadillac tax keeps getting delayed? Because really nobody (not even the unions) want to pay for other peope's health care.

(2) Look at how all the state pension and health care plans are so under-funded. Politicians like to promise benefits but shaft the costs onto someone else ("the next guy&quot or "the next generation".


This is not integrity. This is buying votes.

Until Sanders gives a full accounting of who is paying for all the things he is promising, I will always keep questioning his policies.

Look at how in the second debate he couldn't even say what the highest marginal tax would rise to!

When reality meets the road, not even Vermont wanted to pay for single payer!

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My biggest problem with Sanders is that he promises a lot of free stuff, paid by other people (Original Post) hill2016 Dec 2015 OP
why do you have a Hillary avatar Enrique Dec 2015 #1
Dude, don't take that bait Ned_Devine Dec 2015 #2
Great advice. Juicy_Bellows Dec 2015 #29
Isn't that exactly what Mitt Romney claimed during the last election - The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2015 #3
yes, and more recently Jeb Bush Enrique Dec 2015 #7
And you see the conservatives in the Strib's comment section constantly dflprincess Dec 2015 #48
GAHHH! I never read the comments section. The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2015 #50
Why yes. Yes it is. But in light of the OP's posting history and the uproar of the day ... hedda_foil Dec 2015 #73
That's precisely how Republicans feel about taxes. But you know this. nt DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2015 #4
Ok hill2016 Dec 2015 #25
What is the highest marginal tax rate would you like to see? awake Dec 2015 #5
I agree he has good intentions but there is not a chance he can doc03 Dec 2015 #6
Campaign rhetoric is aspirational. The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2015 #12
Even FDR didn't get everything he wanted HoneychildMooseMoss Dec 2015 #46
This is exactly why he says he will need kacekwl Dec 2015 #56
Trust me, the 1% can afford it. Do you have offshore accounts on some small island? Hiraeth Dec 2015 #8
Yes actually hill2016 Dec 2015 #30
That explains your out of touch-ness. morningfog Dec 2015 #35
Ahhhh Cassiopeia Dec 2015 #54
Lol, no wonder you love her! Nt Logical Dec 2015 #65
ROFL Live and Learn Dec 2015 #74
Is your next OP going to go on about those free-loading welfare queens? demmiblue Dec 2015 #9
Ah, yes, the 47-percenters? The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2015 #13
Rush is that you? jesus christ. m-lekktor Dec 2015 #10
he's not. Doctor_J Dec 2015 #43
Your post is boilerplate repuke rhetoric, or more accurately, bullshit. cali Dec 2015 #11
+1 MissDeeds Dec 2015 #16
i just read what's spouted 24/7 everyday of the year on hate radio, fox news, and rightwing juxtaposed Dec 2015 #14
My guess... Bjornsdotter Dec 2015 #15
it's a radical idea to a right wing asshole! nt m-lekktor Dec 2015 #17
Which is hill2016 Dec 2015 #26
But you use a fucked up, slanted definition of middle class. morningfog Dec 2015 #36
Hate to say, but I think we're done. MeNMyVolt Dec 2015 #18
yawnnnnnnnn niyad Dec 2015 #19
How Romneyesque. Autumn Dec 2015 #20
^^^^^this^^^^^^ Karma13612 Dec 2015 #37
you questions his policies because you blindly fall in to line behind hillary..... bowens43 Dec 2015 #21
She's Adlai Stevenson, v 2.0. Unfortunately for the KingCharlemagne Dec 2015 #34
If you are referring to Adlai Stevenson II, the presidential candidate in '52 and '56 dflprincess Dec 2015 #52
Goldwater Girl Hillary isn't fit to lick KingCharlemagne Dec 2015 #57
"free stuff" - that was Romney's words - classic rightwing talking points Douglas Carpenter Dec 2015 #22
Has he mentioned the costs as well hill2016 Dec 2015 #27
hillary doesn't promise all sorts of free stuff hill2016 Dec 2015 #31
And they don't cover all the citizens. Karma13612 Dec 2015 #41
Well, she should. The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2015 #51
Then why not hill2016 Dec 2015 #58
He's made it perfectly clear that he wants some people to pay more taxes. The Velveteen Ocelot Dec 2015 #60
no, Hillary maintains "free stuff" for health ins co's, Wall Street, rest of 1% zazen Dec 2015 #61
Sensible and affordable? You mean we can't afford education and health care for all Live and Learn Dec 2015 #75
We'll just go back to the marginal rates of the "good ole days".... tokenlib Dec 2015 #23
you sound like a teabagger Skittles Dec 2015 #24
Copy/paste nt arcane1 Dec 2015 #28
"Free Stuff" romanic Dec 2015 #32
K/R Dawson Leery Dec 2015 #33
Such tripe. Bye now. nt thereismore Dec 2015 #38
Don't go down that road. NuclearDem Dec 2015 #39
What? Nothing about Obama phones? one_voice Dec 2015 #40
damn. how come I clicked on democratic underground, and a post from freeperville appeared? Doctor_J Dec 2015 #42
Single payer isn't "free stuff". Google "single payer" & "free stuff" and see who agrees w/you. think Dec 2015 #44
You See A Problem Here ??? WillyT Dec 2015 #45
So who is paying for your free stuff? Kalidurga Dec 2015 #47
You must be a JEB! fan CanonRay Dec 2015 #49
hill are you also morning fog? mgmaggiemg Dec 2015 #53
So here we are Truprogressive85 Dec 2015 #55
Hillary Clinton Calls Jeb Bush’s ‘Free Stuff’ Comment ‘Deeply Insulting’ PADemD Dec 2015 #59
I can't believe these right wing talking points got 7 DU recs BillZBubb Dec 2015 #62
What a silly post! So Bernie should pay for programs? LOL, WTF? nt Logical Dec 2015 #63
Thanks Mitt !!! WillyT Dec 2015 #64
so HRc Supporters parroting talking points from Conservatives ? Truprogressive85 Dec 2015 #66
So glad I read your responses to this thread RedCappedBandit Dec 2015 #67
By free stuff, are you talking about all mmonk Dec 2015 #68
Kick... the masks come off! demmiblue Dec 2015 #69
KICK this since it obviously survived the Alert followed by the jury. Cha Dec 2015 #70
Are you seriously applauding this post? Shame! nt Live and Learn Dec 2015 #78
Right wing talking points uses against liberal candidates are awesome! beam me up scottie Dec 2015 #85
I used to think Clinton supporters just wanted to bash Sanders TSIAS Dec 2015 #86
He has said how he'll pay for things. Vinca Dec 2015 #71
I thought there were rules here that prevents the promotion of RW/GOP Talking Points! nt TheBlackAdder Dec 2015 #72
The Cadillac Tax is based on rightwing ideas. Eric J in MN Dec 2015 #76
Arguably hill2016 Dec 2015 #81
Cut it out. You know it can be done. rusty quoin Dec 2015 #77
I guess people don't mind that corporations hide their millions in the Cayman Islands? Rosa Luxemburg Dec 2015 #79
What do you hill2016 Dec 2015 #80
Wow. Must have run out of memes or think that the rest of us don't know how to look this stuff up. djean111 Dec 2015 #82
Oh, that gosh darn ACA! The free market was doing such a great job until Obama messed everything up. Warren DeMontague Dec 2015 #83
Concerned? mac56 Dec 2015 #84

The Velveteen Ocelot

(114,494 posts)
3. Isn't that exactly what Mitt Romney claimed during the last election -
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 08:57 PM
Dec 2015

that Obama was just promising to give people (and you know what kind of people he meant) "free stuff"? Sounds like a pretty GOP-ish complaint to me. God forbid we should have a government that actually helps people.

Enrique

(27,461 posts)
7. yes, and more recently Jeb Bush
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 09:02 PM
Dec 2015

both used that exact phrase from this OP, "free stuff", and both were talking about black voters, though Jeb was more explicit about it.

dflprincess

(27,987 posts)
48. And you see the conservatives in the Strib's comment section constantly
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 10:39 PM
Dec 2015

accusing the Democrats of "buying" voters by offering "free stuff" to them.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(114,494 posts)
50. GAHHH! I never read the comments section.
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 10:45 PM
Dec 2015

It makes me want to become a hermit. (Somebody recently described Donald Trump as the comments section made flesh. Sounds about right.)

hedda_foil

(16,355 posts)
73. Why yes. Yes it is. But in light of the OP's posting history and the uproar of the day ...
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 01:17 AM
Dec 2015

Let's see, now. From all evidence to date, the poster is 100% for Mrs. C, often posting her campaign's memes of the day while they're still hot from the printer. Today's meme has been to attack Bernie for appealing to a subset of potentially moveable Trump voters from the left., by pretending that he's pursuing the racist crazies that Trump attracts.

Put that together with this attack from the right, which seems custom tailored to appeal to establishment Republicans.

What it looks like to me is that team H is worried about Bernie's populist appeal to those potential Trump supporters who are protesting the raw deal they've gotten in this rigged economy. So they're floating this attack from the right as an opening play for establishment Republican voters.

I don't see it working at this point, but it might appeal to the Romney types.

Just my opinion.

 

hill2016

(1,772 posts)
25. Ok
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 09:58 PM
Dec 2015

Why did the unions push so hard to get the cadillac tax delayed?

Because that's also exactly how they feel about taxes

doc03

(34,967 posts)
6. I agree he has good intentions but there is not a chance he can
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 09:01 PM
Dec 2015

pass any of the stuff he is promissing.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(114,494 posts)
12. Campaign rhetoric is aspirational.
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 09:07 PM
Dec 2015

It's what the candidate wants to have happen and is evidence of their basic philosophy. I'm sure Sanders understands that Congress will not agree to everything he wants. But what I'm also sure he knows is that you always start out negotiations asking for more than you expect to get. You don't limit yourself by asking only for what you think the other side will let you have. That way you get even less.

kacekwl

(6,969 posts)
56. This is exactly why he says he will need
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 11:01 PM
Dec 2015

our help to pressure those who want to keep the same old same old. If we want what he proposes we need to tell congress so in no uncertain terms. Political Revolution remember.

demmiblue

(36,658 posts)
9. Is your next OP going to go on about those free-loading welfare queens?
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 09:04 PM
Dec 2015

Ya know, the ones who drive Cadillacs?

The bizarro-world republispeak, even among those who proclaim themselves to be progressive-socialists, is just...

The Velveteen Ocelot

(114,494 posts)
13. Ah, yes, the 47-percenters?
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 09:13 PM
Dec 2015

In the immortal words of Mitt Romney: "There are 47 percent who are with (Obama), who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it." Those people? The ones who are buying steak and lobster with their food stamps?

I'm really grossed out to see an opinion like the OP on DU.

 

juxtaposed

(2,778 posts)
14. i just read what's spouted 24/7 everyday of the year on hate radio, fox news, and rightwing
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 09:15 PM
Dec 2015

sites. The rabbit hole is deep.

Bjornsdotter

(6,123 posts)
15. My guess...
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 09:16 PM
Dec 2015

...is that we would pay for it like every other country which already has all of these common benefits. It's really not a radical idea.

 

morningfog

(18,115 posts)
36. But you use a fucked up, slanted definition of middle class.
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 10:15 PM
Dec 2015

So we have no way of knowing what your actually saying.

 

MeNMyVolt

(1,095 posts)
18. Hate to say, but I think we're done.
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 09:20 PM
Dec 2015

I somewhat get what you're saying, but man, say it a little better. End-of-line.

Autumn

(44,532 posts)
20. How Romneyesque.
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 09:28 PM
Dec 2015
I absolutely hate republicans who do that, you know all those tax breaks and subsidies for their corporate sponsors and those who like unpaid for wars.
 

bowens43

(16,064 posts)
21. you questions his policies because you blindly fall in to line behind hillary.....
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 09:38 PM
Dec 2015

she will never be president, you're working for the Republicans. If she gets the nomination the republicans get the oval office.

 

KingCharlemagne

(7,908 posts)
34. She's Adlai Stevenson, v 2.0. Unfortunately for the
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 10:11 PM
Dec 2015

American people, the Republicans aren't running a Socialist like Ike this year (ht Sanders

dflprincess

(27,987 posts)
52. If you are referring to Adlai Stevenson II, the presidential candidate in '52 and '56
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 10:50 PM
Dec 2015

he was a good liberal and you shouldn't insult him this way.

 

KingCharlemagne

(7,908 posts)
57. Goldwater Girl Hillary isn't fit to lick
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 11:17 PM
Dec 2015

the soles of Stevenson's shoes. But she'll go down in a similar blaze of glory. Hopefully only once in 2016 and not a second time in 2020.

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
22. "free stuff" - that was Romney's words - classic rightwing talking points
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 09:39 PM
Dec 2015

Are you a Democrat? You sound very rightwing - borderline rightwing extremist.

"Free stuff 'paid for by other people' to buy votes" - I don't believe you would be happy with Hillary or any other Democrat for that matter. That's simply no how any of us Democrats think. Even most centrist/conservative dems would see your words as far right talking points.

Sen. Sanders is not proposing anything that is not established orthodoxy in most western democracies. You didn't know that?

 

hill2016

(1,772 posts)
31. hillary doesn't promise all sorts of free stuff
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 10:04 PM
Dec 2015

Which is why I'm happy with her policies.

They are sensible and affordable.

Karma13612

(4,514 posts)
41. And they don't cover all the citizens.
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 10:20 PM
Dec 2015

They only cover subsections of the population. That smacks of class divisions and deciding who is worthy of being raised up.

Bernie is inclusive, Hillary is divisive.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(114,494 posts)
51. Well, she should.
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 10:49 PM
Dec 2015

"Free stuff" (e.g., child care, education, medical care) is one of the reasons the Scandinavian countries are considered by their citizens to be the happiest in the world. Yes, their taxes are higher, so the free stuff isn't really free. But since these countries are democracies, presumably their citizens prefer to pay for these things through taxes, a far more efficient means than overpaying insurance companies and for-profit schools as we do here, enriching the 1% to our detriment.

 

hill2016

(1,772 posts)
58. Then why not
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 11:21 PM
Dec 2015

Ask the American people which is also a democracy whether they would like to pay for these things through higher taxes?

That's the part I think Sanders is not being upfront with.

The Velveteen Ocelot

(114,494 posts)
60. He's made it perfectly clear that he wants some people to pay more taxes.
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 11:30 PM
Dec 2015

But those people would be the wealthy, not the middle class. As it is now, wealthy people pay a lesser percentage of their income in taxes (that's all taxes, including federal, state, local and FICA) than everybody else. I recall Warren Buffet said his secretary paid more taxes (as a percentage of income) than he did. People in this country have been so brainwashed into thinking that everything should be privatized and all government programs (and therefore taxes) are bad - even though, for example, Medicare is actually more efficient than private insurance - that it's hard to get that message across. It doesn't help that some people who call themselves Democrats are singing from the same hymnbook as the GOPers.

zazen

(2,978 posts)
61. no, Hillary maintains "free stuff" for health ins co's, Wall Street, rest of 1%
Tue Dec 29, 2015, 12:06 AM
Dec 2015

You know, the stuff the rest of us are paying for through loss of decent jobs, exorbitant health care expenses, exorbitant college tuition prices, grossly overpriced housing, lack of safety net for unemployed, disabled, elderly who require assisted living, their caregivers, environmental degradation . . .

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
75. Sensible and affordable? You mean we can't afford education and health care for all
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 01:32 AM
Dec 2015

because you don't want to have to share your wealth? Well, I have news for you, I am tired of having to pay your share and mine when I donate to the homeless and a myriad of other causes because I can't turn my back on them.

Time for you and all the other wealthy individuals to pay your fair share.

Please remember that it is only by the approval of the masses that you have any wealth. It can be taken away at any time. I suggest you willingly help out before that happens.

tokenlib

(4,186 posts)
23. We'll just go back to the marginal rates of the "good ole days"....
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 09:42 PM
Dec 2015

Even if we move in the direction of what they were in the 1950s and 60s..it would be an improvement. I will grant you one thing, I dislike the phrase "free" college education. We need to emphasize that we as a society will pay for it..by progressive taxation. Using the word "free" only gives ammo to the tea baggers so they can go on their "giving away free stuff" rants.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
39. Don't go down that road.
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 10:17 PM
Dec 2015

I'm not a Sanders supporter by any stretch of the imagination, but that's just pure Republican, "welfare queen", 44% horsecrap.

 

Doctor_J

(36,392 posts)
42. damn. how come I clicked on democratic underground, and a post from freeperville appeared?
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 10:28 PM
Dec 2015

Was this your own creation, or did you copy and paste it from freeperville?

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
47. So who is paying for your free stuff?
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 10:34 PM
Dec 2015

Never mind I already know. The system is geared toward getting nearly free labor and the people who provide that labor pay more in taxes and fees as a percent of their income than middle incomes and up. And at the same time the working poor are being hosed they are derided as being lazy and wanting free stuff. You know things like food and shelter that have gotten so outrageously expensive it takes 2-3 incomes per family just to barely make enough to live on.

Apartment $800
Food for 3-4 600-800
Electricity 30-90
Car/Insurance/Gas 300
Bus Pass 90
Clothing 600

This is just a very basic very not itemized list of expenses for a family of 3 or 4 people. And it's about rock bottom as far as expenses go. Most 2 bedroom apartments are more than $800 a month. Food can exceed $600 easily when families are strapped for time because of the 3 job situation and one adult is taking the bus nearly everywhere. I have the car expenses low because the family most likely has a beater that is barely holding on, but they don't have a car payment and they have very low cost insurance and don't drive far to work, this number can easily be a lot more if a family opts to buy a more reliable car and has payments plus drives farther to work. The clothing budget is also very low, because the family goes to the thrift store for most of their clothes. But, those clothes wear out faster so it's more trips to buy more clothes.

These are the families that are paying for all the free stuff that the middle class up to the very rich enjoy because the very rich are definitely not paying fair wages or their share in taxes and they benefit from the cheap labor. The middle class has more time to enjoy the free stuff that poor people pay for like parks and things like that.

Truprogressive85

(900 posts)
55. So here we are
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 10:56 PM
Dec 2015

Those people wanting "free stuff" how dare they

Sounds like Conservative mantra:
Its almost as if the ghost William F Buckley has made its way to the HRC supporters


PADemD

(4,482 posts)
59. Hillary Clinton Calls Jeb Bush’s ‘Free Stuff’ Comment ‘Deeply Insulting’
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 11:28 PM
Dec 2015

Hillary Rodham Clinton unloaded on Jeb Bush on Monday, calling it “deeply insulting” that he had suggested that Democratic presidential candidates had tried to appeal to black voters by offering “free stuff.”

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/09/28/hillary-clinton-calls-jeb-bushs-free-stuff-comment-deeply-insulting/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251633791

It appears that Hillary disagrees with you.

BillZBubb

(10,650 posts)
62. I can't believe these right wing talking points got 7 DU recs
Tue Dec 29, 2015, 12:16 AM
Dec 2015

Something is very wrong here. Are some Hillary supporters rec'ing anything that smears Sanders? Even though it is right wing trash?

Truprogressive85

(900 posts)
66. so HRc Supporters parroting talking points from Conservatives ?
Tue Dec 29, 2015, 06:14 AM
Dec 2015

"paid by other peoples" ? "free stuff" ?

I rather pay higher in taxes so that the future generation doesn't not have worry about student debt

I rather pay higher taxes so that people do not have to pay astronomical premiums to Insurance companies that only care about the bottom line.




mmonk

(52,589 posts)
68. By free stuff, are you talking about all
Tue Dec 29, 2015, 07:41 AM
Dec 2015

the free stuff taxpayers currently are providing to corporations or free stuff to the people who are paying taxes?

TSIAS

(14,689 posts)
86. I used to think Clinton supporters just wanted to bash Sanders
Thu Dec 31, 2015, 05:39 AM
Dec 2015

But the more I read it seems like they actually support these right-wing positions, and aren't merely using them to try and attack Bernie Sanders.

I'll bet if Hillary Clinton is the nominee this same line of attack will be used on her.

Eric J in MN

(35,619 posts)
76. The Cadillac Tax is based on rightwing ideas.
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 01:37 AM
Dec 2015

Unions won good health insurance with low out-of-pocket.

Rightwingers think that the problem with healthcare is that ordinary people don't pay enough, and therefore make too many doctor appointments.

The Cadillac Tax is to tax out-of-existence insurance with low out-of-pocket. Then unions lose what they won for their members, and ordinary people can't see their doctors as often.

The Cadillac Tax was invented by Jonathan Gruber. Gruber wrote an op-ed about Obamacare without revealing that he was a paid consultant for designing Obamacare. He tried to deceive the American people into thinking that he was writing about Obamacare as a neutral commentator.

 

hill2016

(1,772 posts)
81. Arguably
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 02:37 AM
Dec 2015

The Cadillac tax is to eventually drive all employer-based insurance to the exchanges since their limits are not indexed to health care inflation.

But my point still remains. People don't want to pay for other people's health insurance. Look at what happened in Vermont as well.

 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
82. Wow. Must have run out of memes or think that the rest of us don't know how to look this stuff up.
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 06:57 AM
Dec 2015

Sad.

Warren DeMontague

(80,708 posts)
83. Oh, that gosh darn ACA! The free market was doing such a great job until Obama messed everything up.
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 07:00 AM
Dec 2015

derp derp derp derp

By the way, there's a word for "people paying for other peoples' health care". Know what that word is?

Insurance.

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