2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumYes...Party matters
There is strength in numbers. We are not in the fight of our lives against other Dems. We are the fight of our lives against the Republican machine. To imagine that the RW can be put aside and rendered immaterial will not happen with a splintered Democratic Party that isn't being nurtured to mature, and evolve to the current issues that affect all of us. This a union. What is needed is a unified force to be reckoned with, to be strong and effective. Bernie is not in this with the long term health of Democrats in mind.
I agree there is much that could be made better, but to improve those things from the inside out, rather than dismantle or abandon the entire party (which seems to be an on going meme with many Bernie supporters). Bernie has absolutley no inclination to party build, to make the party stronger, develope a strategy of internal support, down ticket elections and unity to put the republicans back under a rock and regain the 900 and more, lost local and state Democratic seats.
Who can forget that for decades the Republicans had planned and implemented systemic voter suppression laws, gerrymandered districts, and worked on the local and state levels to marginalize the Democratic constituency. The upcoming census, is going to be of great benefit in the issue of gerrymandered districts, but only if the party will be strong and effective when the redistrcting opportunities are finally upon us 2020...having an effect on 2022 and 2024 elections.
Bernie despises the party. He's said so numerous times. He will not and does not intend to party build. What happens to the DEMs if after 4 years of Bernie when there is nothing left to coalesce? This is the very reason I say that if Bernie become POTUS, it would take at least 20 years to get back to being a force to recon with.
This is just one of the reasons I cannot vote for Bernie. (Eta for clarification since it appears some do not understand that for me it's a Democratic Party vote or nothing...I will never vote for Bernie in the Primary, but will never ever vote anything but Dem ticket in the GE)
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wyldwolf
(43,869 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Bernie does not hate democrats. Inferring that as the OP does is slander.
Bernie, in congress, joins with the Democrats against the republicans. Those who refuse to admit that Truth and go on this slander campaign are destroying the Democratic Party, not building it up.
Obama is happy that Bernie is running for President. Obama is for party unity. The only ones who hate that Bernie is running are PUMAs.
The OP is pure PUMA dressed up in a slick party unity halloween costume.
Disgusting. Obama would not be happy, because Obama is happy Bernie is running and Bernie's campaign is bringing new blood into politics.
The OP in it's PUMA intentions shows it to be against new blood and new members. It wishes to close the doors and only allow those who are elites to enter. And it makes DU suck.
wyldwolf
(43,869 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Bernie quotes in bold:
“You don’t change the system from within the Democratic Party.”
If you are in the party hierarchy and you go against the present day system of American electoral politics of bribes and big money donors, you will be excluded and trashed. We see them trashing Bernie, so it is True they trash anyone opposed to their same old, same old politics.
“My own feeling is that the Democratic Party is ideologically bankrupt.”
The party elites supported the stolen election of 2000. The patriot act, the Iraq invasion. Yep, bankrupt. I could go on and on.....
Bernie did not need the party while just in Vermont. But he has chosen to run for president and since he is way more democratically minded than the party elite who wish to further the way politics is practiced, and he sees people -- like most of DU -- who are fed up with the system, he has wisely chosen to lead us to defeat the party elites and win back our country.
You should be glad.
wyldwolf
(43,869 posts)
George II
(67,782 posts)A few quotes from the person you say "does not hate Democrats:
“My own feeling is that the Democratic Party is ideologically bankrupt.”
“We have to ask ourselves, ‘Why should we work within the Democratic Party if we don’t agree with anything the Democratic Party says?’”
“They have no ideology. Their ideology is opportunism.”
In an op-ed in the New York Times in January 1989, he called the Democratic and Republican parties “tweedle-dee” and “tweedle-dum,” both adhering in his estimation to an “ideology of greed and vulgarity.”
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/bernie-sanders-2016-democrats-121181
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)Yeah! Go Democratic Party! In the past 30 years, you have taken us to minority status at all levels of government, from the congress on down to mayors and county boards. Build that party! Stoke that machine! More of the same!
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Clearly you haven't ready anything, just responded with a typical Bernie supporter knee jerk talking point.
I see these types of positions as part of the problem, with absolutley no long term solutions.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)But I did read your post. When I read your response, I went back and read it again, just to make sure I didn't miss something the first time. OK, perhaps I am being a bit unfair to you, since you recommend building the party and changing it from the inside. Here's my take on the party, our party.
We need someone like Bernie Sanders. Why do you think he has been an independent? Why do you think he makes disparaging remarks about the party? Because it's a party that works against him and what he believes. It's a party that concentrates on raising money, and accepts money from the interests that are ruining life for working class and middle class Americans. It's a party represented by candidates who exploit the system to amass personal fortunes. It's a party willing to shift with the political winds to keep its members in office. It's a party willing to tolerate, and actively support, racists and xenophobes, as long as they have that little (D) behind their names.
My point is this: Our party will never change -- NEVER -- until we find a way to accept people like Bernie Sanders, and advocate for at least some of the values he represents. The fact that Sanders cannot be a Democrat should shock us, not because it represents disloyalty on his part, but because it illustrates how far right we have drifted. Throwing people off the welfare rolls, executing more criminals, privatizing government, etc. We have candidates who advocate all these things, and worse.
We have drifted so far to the right we inspire nobody. We offer no real alternative to the Republicans on many issues. Want evidence? Bernie Sanders polls better against Republican candidates than Hillary Clinton does. Yes. Clinton will win next November, but it seems a phyrric victory because our party will be closer than ever to major corporations, Wall Street, and the rest of the interests we're supposed to regulate to give the citizens a fair shot.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Where does this bizarre tunnel vision that the Democratic Party has destroyed America come from? Fox News? Is is a poisonous miasma that wafts on the night air?
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)We're responsible for how it operates, the candidates who represent us, etc. By allowing our party to drift to the right, we have abandoned many of our core values, and at deemphasized most of them. It's OK to blame the Republicans, but we have been saying, "It's their fault! Let's be more like them."
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)as most of the nation did. When it did, political personality tests also shifted to create new supposed "normals," and I've been "testing" strongly, instead of moderately, liberal ever since. I've also been waiting for 35 years for the wheel to turn, and now that it has we get THIS, this virulent attempt to sabotage the party just as it's finally moving left ON THE ISSUES.
That doesn't matter to some. Their enmity obviously does not care about moving the party left. They hate the Democratic Party itself. They claim constantly that Democrats be destroyed so that they can be replace them.
And as they subvert the GOP's only powerful and organized resistance on the left, they give the GOP free rein to do whatever it wants, all their loathing devoted to the Democratic Party.
This is key. They can't all be too stupid to realize they could be handing their nation to the far right. They just don't care about that. We see where this type's passion is focused here all day long by their actions. Nothing matters as much as acting out their enmity by attacking the Democratic Party.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)And I think some of my fellow Bernie supporters are crossing it. Obviously, advocating not voting for Clinton next November is over the line. No matter how strongly I feel about Bernie, and no matter how disappointed I will be if he loses the nomination, I will vote for Clinton, and I will try to persuade others to do the same. There's also the issue of how far we go to convince people Bernie is better than Hillary. I can't tell where that line is, but reprinting right wing talking points about Clinton is across the line.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Except about a "fine" line -- nothing fine about some have been doing at all.
Others who support Bernie never cross any line, though, and that should be mentioned. Their voices tend to get overwhelmed by the subversive mob.
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)If the Democratic party fails, then it points to a fundamental flaw in the party and what it represents, not a single candidate.
If people - liberals - have no fondness for the party, the party needs to look at its own behavior instead of seeking external explanations for why it cannot, as you say, coalesce.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)The head of the party should be responsible for party building. If that person does not do so, they are working towards its demise.
That is a problem, not a solution.
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)The President represents the people (all the people, not just those registered with a political party). The President's job is to serve as the chief executive officer of the nation, working in concert (checks and balances) with a Congress that contains a lot of people who ostensibly represent the people.
Political parties are not a branch of government.
The people responsible for party building are the officers of the party. If they can't figure out how to do that then yes, the party will have problems.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)subversives who want to destroy the party. They are something very different, or perhaps various other somethings. I just don't know what since they tend to not want to say.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)"Based on the Terms of Service, we have grounds to ban anyone who states that they do not intend to vote for the Democratic nominee in any general election. There is a popular misconception that the "Vote for Democrats" rule only applies after a nominee has been chosen, but that is not correct."--David Allen.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Is that what you read? Interesting.
I despise people who advocate voting for anyone but the Dem nominee....unlike a broad swath of Bernie supporters...including those that have been banned on the past.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)You should probably look into that.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)But it does look as though you've edited to stay within the announced boundary.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Apparently you intended to parse to cause a banning. I was force to clarify for the sake of those who chose to parse words. Done.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)I apologize for nothing.
HassleCat
(6,409 posts)You will vote for the Democrat in the general, no matter what. That's what I will do, and that's how I read your post.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)makes me wanna drop it like a bad habit.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Why would I vote for anyone not ont eh Dem ticket?
It's about party building....get it?
Probably not, you advocate tearing the party down, rather than working from within. You advocate to demolish.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Clinton supporters have a proven record of voting Republican when they do not get what they want.
So what will you do? Write someone in? Do you advocate others follow your vote for Trump or "whoever"?
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Bitter and twisting and parsing words. It seems to be what you do. The entire op was about the party...there was never an intent to vote outside of the party. You know it, and I made that very clear, but chose to twist it into something else.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You hate sanders quite a lot, as has been more than evident. Is all that hatred just going to go away, if he's the nominee?
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Perhaps avoiding the attempt at gotcha questions, you could create a dialogue, a discussion simply ask for clarification.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Now. Please. Allay my concerns; what will you do, when Sanders is the nominee?
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 8, 2015, 07:24 PM - Edit history (1)
Not after the harassment you have been a party to on this site. You deserve absolutley no consideration from me. You dare ask me for anything. You who made it a mission to try and paint me as anti Semitic, and as a person who would vote for Trump over a Dem. Your insinuations are disgusting and I don't think you are worth any further response.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Now you're all defensive about how you're gonna vote? Strange!
George II
(67,782 posts)Response to Scootaloo (Reply #17)
William769 This message was self-deleted by its author.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)the future of the party is bleak. The next generation ain't buying what we're selling. Hell, a lot of lifelong dems aren't buying it anymore either. If the party can't serve up anything better than republican lite, they've got trouble. IMO the environment will soon be right for a true third party challenge.
djean111
(14,255 posts)In my opinion, Hillary would continue the re-making of the Democratic Party into the Third Way Party. As has been going on for some time. Hillary herself says she is no progressive.
So, no sale on Hillary, thanks anyway!
Response to djean111 (Reply #11)
Sheepshank This message was self-deleted by its author.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)Yes, there is strength in numbers. Which is exactly why the corporate establishment is going after Bernie like sharks. He's drawing the numbers.
But...the health of the party? Sanders is reviving a dying party. A party that has become the refuge of moderate Republicans, fleeing their own batshit crazy party and pushing the liberal base under the bus while they pontificate about beating Republicans. Sanders is bringing people back into the party, and galvanizing those who don't usually participate. He's got long, long coat tails.
As a matter of fact, he has spoken directly of this to the DNC, and to Democratic voters on more than one occasion. It's the corporate establishment that doesn't want to acknowledge what he's saying, and what he is doing, and can do, for the Democratic Party, because they'd have to give up their corporate-sponsored power.
Again...false. Please provide one single piece of evidence that Sanders has ever said he "despises" the Democratic Party...without putting your on bias on it. You can't. It is unflattering to you, and to the party that you purport to support, that you would stoop to such a level.
As far as whether or not the party matters:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=777893
bbgrunt
(5,281 posts)cosmicone
(11,014 posts)
ismnotwasm
(42,008 posts)K&R
Doubledee
(137 posts)"There is strength in numbers. We are not in the fight of our lives against other Dems. We are the fight of our lives against the Republican machine. To imagine that the RW can be put aside and rendered immaterial will not happen with a splintered Democratic Party that isn't being nurtured to mature, and evolve to the current issues that affect all of us. This a union. What is needed is a unified force to be reckoned with, to be strong and effective. Bernie is not in this with the long term health of Democrats in mind."
*To identify the fight "we" are in you cannot simply think your own opinion is universal. I, myself, am fighting a corrupted system, one that serves the corporation and not the people. Sanders , among the boatload of those seeking the Presidency, speaks to the fight as I see it to be.
"I agree there is much that could be made better, but to improve those things from the inside out, rather than dismantle or abandon the entire party (which seems to be an on going meme with many Bernie supporters). Bernie has absolutley no inclination to party build, to make the party stronger, develope a strategy of internal support, down ticket elections and unity to put the republicans back under a rock and regain the 900 and more, lost local and state Democratic seats."
*Making the nation secure from the control of the moneyed interests serves the traditional democratic party position as it used to be.It is your beloved party that lost those elections, lost those seats and continues to miss the point. It is yur beloved party silencing the progressive caucus, the black caucus and pandering every bit as much as does the GOP to the corporate interests ruining our democratic system.
"Who can forget that for decades the Republicans had planned and implemented systemic voter suppression laws, gerrymandered districts, and worked on the local and state levels to marginalize the Democratic constituency. The upcoming census, is going to be of great benefit in the issue of gerrymandered districts, but only if the party will be strong and effective when the redistrcting opportunities are finally upon us 2020...having an effect on 2022 and 2024 elections."
Who can forget that history shows that the democrats, when in power and in a position to do so, gerrymandered every bit as much as did the GOP.
"Bernie despises the party. He's said so numerous times. He will not and does not intend to party build. What happens to the DEMs if after 4 years of Bernie when there is nothing left to coalesce? This is the very reason I say that if Bernie become POTUS, it would take at least 20 years to get back to being a force to recon with."
Please cite examples of Senator Sanders denigrating the Party he has caucused with his entire career in the Senate.
"This is just one of the reasons I cannot vote for Bernie. (Eta for clarification since it appears some do not understand that for me it's a Democratic Party vote or nothing...I will never vote for Bernie in the Primary, but will never ever vote anything but Dem ticket in the GE) "
Your opinion is duly noted, but your mangling of the facts is as well.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)This has been posted several times...he dislikes and will not party build....
“My own feeling is that the Democratic Party is ideologically bankrupt.”
Story Continued Below
“We have to ask ourselves, ‘Why should we work within the Democratic Party if we don’t agree with anything the Democratic Party says?’”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/bernie-sanders-2016-democrats-121181#ixzz3qwWDtrNF
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)If you are in the party hierarchy and you go against the present day system of American electoral politics of bribes and big money donors, you will be excluded and trashed. We see them trashing Bernie, so it is True they trash anyone opposed to their same old, same old politics.
“My own feeling is that the Democratic Party is ideologically bankrupt.”
The party elites supported the stolen election of 2000. The patriot act, the Iraq invasion. Yep, bankrupt. I could go on and on.....
Bernie did not need the party while just in Vermont. But he has chosen to run for president and since he is way more democratically minded than the party elite who wish to further the way politics is practiced, and he sees people -- like most of DU -- who are fed up with the system, he has wisely chosen to lead us to defeat the party elites and win back our country.
You should be glad.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Too bad he didn't do that for himself.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)I wish Hillary were noble and true. We wouldn't be having to put up with all this bullshit and trashing of Bernie.
Hillary is the elite, rich politician your parents warned you about. Did you listen then?
Relatively, Bernie is noble and true. He is the real deal. 8 out of 10 DUers agree.
Doubledee
(137 posts)Nor is it about trivialities or character assassinations so many seem to fasten upon in this silly battle between democratic party candidates.
It is about platforms, political histories, positions on issues as stated by the candidates. Too many think political discourse means throwing hissy fits.
Doubledee
(137 posts)prove nothing.but reflect on the poster.
Doubledee
(137 posts)thanks
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)The Machine being the Democratic establishment machine, the candidates that parsed and excluded and who were not for and of the people. Harvey Milk ran as a Democrat against the Democratic machine and he said so. In doing so he helped revive this Party in CA as well as all that civil rights stuff he's famous for. You should look it up.
Plus, you say Bernie despises the Party when in reality Bernie is one of 5 co-founders of the largest Democratic Caucus in the Congress. So frankly you don't even seem to know the simple facts and I highly question your own qualifications to be judging who is a Democrat. You are here railing against one of our candidates with hyperbolic characterizations and mendacious verbiage. But you are the big Democrat? That's not how it looks to me.
misterhighwasted
(9,148 posts)Divide & splinter & look where they stand today.
They are a broken mess of a party.
I'll support unity of the Democratic Party, thanks.
misterhighwasted
(9,148 posts)Great OP
Thanks for reminding us that Solidarity in the Dem Party has always been because of the people.
The Dem party IS the people's Party. Always has been, always will be.
Solidarity is democracy.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)I don't vote for labels. Nor, do I see much chance of "changing the party from the inside".
restorefreedom
(12,655 posts)millenials don't give two craps about party. one more cycle it won't even matter, we will probably be on a four or multi "party" system
and as for party building, good. this party does not need to be built. this corporatized, death penalty, third way neolib war party needs to be torn down and reborn to the progressive ideals that used to matter.
aikoaiko
(34,183 posts)
libodem
(19,288 posts)That's all I care about.
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daleanime
(17,796 posts)he wants to turn more people out to vote?
Keep telling yourself that 'stuff', you might be able to believe it some day. Have a lovely evening.
George II
(67,782 posts)
daleanime
(17,796 posts)democracy.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)The stronger Wall St becomes, the stronger Republicans become. To imagine they don't is outright ignorance or purposeful naivety. Those who empower the rise of the corporate state, disembowel Democracy itself. As you point out, by suppression gerrymandering and the rise of Jim Crow.
This is an understood reality. The best way forward is the question. On one thing we do agree. It is indeed a fight for our lives.