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retrowire

(10,345 posts)
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 05:11 PM Oct 2015

The logical reason that Bernie will win.

Alright, here it goes.

So in 2008, there was an election in which an outsider ran against some well known and established politicians and he won because he ran on a platform that preached endlessly towards CHANGE and HOPE.

He promised the people he would work with them to get their needs met. He was attacked and smeared much in the same way Bernie is today. But there was a great wave of discontented Americans that carried him to the White House.

Who were those Americans? They were the progressive youth of our nation. They were the majority that voted him into the white house.

Now, let's look at the present day. And this part is very important. That generation is still here, they're a bit older and there are thousands more progressive youth that has joined them. For the most part, they're not entirely dissatisfied with their choice in Obama.

But remember this, they didn't vote for Hillary, and they weren't moved by any other message.

Now we have Bernie and he's appealing to the very same people that Obama had enchanted. Also take into consideration that Bernie is doing better than Obama did at this same point in time.

Now ask yourself the following question and you should come to the same logical conclusion that I have.

-Since that same majority that elected Obama not only still exists, (they've grown larger) why would they vote for a centrist moderate that they didn't vote for the first time round?

I mean, that logic is clear as day to me. The older generation has moved on, the younger has gotten bigger and they're becoming more politically involved than before.

How would that ever work in favor of Hillary?

And sorry, polls mean nothing after seeing what CNN was capable of doing. Scrubbing their poll results after the debate, scrubbing pro-Bernie/anti-Hillary comments, etc...

That alone proved that we're in an era where corporations are literally attempting to control the freedom of information. And in the favor of Hillary.

Remember what I said about Biden? Be wary when the powers that be are choosing a favorite for you. You can eat what you're served if you want but not me. :/

Either way, the generation that voted Obama instead of Hillary is still here. They're bigger than before and smarter. They exist. I feel like it's honestly as if they're the elephant in the room that Hillary supporters aren't really thinking about.

128 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The logical reason that Bernie will win. (Original Post) retrowire Oct 2015 OP
.... Cassiopeia Oct 2015 #1
And keep in mind, Sanders isn't running any ads yet. jeff47 Oct 2015 #2
This is a really good point. HerbChestnut Oct 2015 #4
Um, you're only talking about Democratic voters. The biggest voting bloc in the country right now sabrina 1 Oct 2015 #12
Hillary's zero crossover appeal can be seen... tex-wyo-dem Oct 2015 #47
Will the media take Bernie's money Plucketeer Oct 2015 #40
Yes. It buys hookers and blow just as well as Clinton's money. (nt) jeff47 Oct 2015 #62
Full out laugh! artislife Oct 2015 #89
:hattip: (nt) jeff47 Oct 2015 #93
Ok. n/t zappaman Oct 2015 #3
Thank you for reading and posting. n/t retrowire Oct 2015 #5
More than the youth voted for Obama treestar Oct 2015 #6
false. retrowire Oct 2015 #8
As against far fewer electable opponents treestar Oct 2015 #52
I am an Obama supporter now for Bernie. I remember the exact same claims 'he can't win' etc sabrina 1 Oct 2015 #15
You are not an Obama supporter for a very long time treestar Oct 2015 #50
keep those fingers crossed! retrowire Oct 2015 #56
I voted for Obama twice artislife Oct 2015 #91
Not true - I actively volunteered for Obama TBF Oct 2015 #108
There is another factor zalinda Oct 2015 #7
That is the elephant in the room . TheFarS1de Oct 2015 #10
IMO - you are right. 840high Oct 2015 #31
Exactly... tex-wyo-dem Oct 2015 #58
I reckon we'll see. cwydro Oct 2015 #9
I hope you are right sadoldgirl Oct 2015 #11
True. retrowire Oct 2015 #60
Thumbs up! SoapBox Oct 2015 #13
I don't know how many times ... NanceGreggs Oct 2015 #14
He's not Obama at all. That's why he's a better candidate. arcane1 Oct 2015 #18
That "loser" is still the front-runner. NanceGreggs Oct 2015 #19
Where have I heard all that before...? arcane1 Oct 2015 #22
Again the assumption ... NanceGreggs Oct 2015 #24
You must have some even stronger, harsher words for O'Malley supporters n/t arcane1 Oct 2015 #25
O'Malley supporters aren't convinced he's going to win. nt Codeine Oct 2015 #55
As a dispassionate observer I must give you this round. DemocratSinceBirth Oct 2015 #26
This subthread is even more hilarious than the OP Number23 Oct 2015 #27
Thanks, Number23! NanceGreggs Oct 2015 #30
Disingenuous, Nance. senz Oct 2015 #33
Bernie has only one speech ... NanceGreggs Oct 2015 #48
Obviously you've never listened to him. senz Oct 2015 #61
Sadly, I have listened to him ... NanceGreggs Oct 2015 #66
I'm going to let Nance Greggs write my posts from now on Codeine Oct 2015 #53
That's one silly rebuttal ... tex-wyo-dem Oct 2015 #71
If BS's messsage is resonating with people ... NanceGreggs Oct 2015 #75
And, thank dog he isn't zalinda Oct 2015 #97
you assume too much which is not true JI7 Oct 2015 #16
thank you for reading and posting. n/t retrowire Oct 2015 #21
I supported Obama in 2007, actually, wanted him to run for years before that. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #17
i was hoping someone like you would post in here! retrowire Oct 2015 #20
Because I supported Obama then. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #23
Same here ... NanceGreggs Oct 2015 #28
that does not explain why you didnt support hillary then retrowire Oct 2015 #29
Yes, it does. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #32
these details are much more helpful retrowire Oct 2015 #35
No. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #39
ahhhh retrowire Oct 2015 #43
Again, no. I have a fundamental disagreement with the basis of Socialism. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #45
A Democratic Socialism retrowire Oct 2015 #51
Democratic Solcialism is simply imposing the socialism econimic system via a democratic political... MohRokTah Oct 2015 #67
Okay. retrowire Oct 2015 #69
What you describe has precisely nothing to do with governmental control of the means of production. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #72
Oh? retrowire Oct 2015 #76
No. Regulation of commerce is clearly a power spelled out in the constitution. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #77
but the important detail left out in your definition is retrowire Oct 2015 #78
By definition, that is solved through democratic representation. eom MohRokTah Oct 2015 #79
which is perfectly possible within a democratic socialist system. n/t retrowire Oct 2015 #80
And I will oppose such a system being implemented with the last breath in my body. eom MohRokTah Oct 2015 #81
Even though it's fair and would protect people from being oppressed retrowire Oct 2015 #82
I believe it is unfair and oppresses people through a bureaucratic nightmare MohRokTah Oct 2015 #83
Well how do you believe it oppresses people then? n/t retrowire Oct 2015 #84
The same way you believe corporations oppress people. eom MohRokTah Oct 2015 #85
Then you have greatly misunderstood me retrowire Oct 2015 #86
Worse would happen under a bureaucratic nightmare through government control of the means of... MohRokTah Oct 2015 #90
facepalm* retrowire Oct 2015 #99
One word. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #102
yeah and? retrowire Oct 2015 #104
No matter how well Democratic Socialists attempt to make it work MohRokTah Oct 2015 #106
alright hillary then, but wait! retrowire Oct 2015 #110
You are not convincing me MohRokTah Oct 2015 #113
dat aint democratic socialism lol try again retrowire Oct 2015 #115
Hugo Chavez and his entire government were democratically ELECTED. MohRokTah Oct 2015 #118
being elected democratically retrowire Oct 2015 #119
Yes, it is. eom MohRokTah Oct 2015 #120
thank you for your time. retrowire Oct 2015 #121
I don't understand your confusion. NanceGreggs Oct 2015 #34
does it explain why they didn't support kucinich biden Richardson etc ? JI7 Oct 2015 #37
why would it? n/t retrowire Oct 2015 #41
Well Old Codger Oct 2015 #36
oh i meant no disrespect old timer. retrowire Oct 2015 #38
No sweat Old Codger Oct 2015 #42
Clinton was the anti-Obama in 2008; now she's on our team and Sanders is the anti-O. ucrdem Oct 2015 #44
.... retrowire Oct 2015 #46
No comparison whatsoever. None. ucrdem Oct 2015 #49
lol ok retrowire Oct 2015 #54
I heard exactly what he said. ucrdem Oct 2015 #63
So he said "I am the anti-Obama" retrowire Oct 2015 #65
That particular phrase he whistled. ucrdem Oct 2015 #68
Okie dokie! n/t retrowire Oct 2015 #70
No, he's not. NanceGreggs Oct 2015 #57
Exactly. ucrdem Oct 2015 #73
That actually makes some sense, in a way. Hillary always seems to hitch her wagon to falling stars. reformist2 Oct 2015 #74
Your logic is only halfway there. DrBulldog Oct 2015 #59
Well it's not just millenials! retrowire Oct 2015 #64
Where does that figure come from? Codeine Oct 2015 #87
If we elect h, we will lose artislife Oct 2015 #92
Except Sanders isn't showing that he is able to win the African American vote mythology Oct 2015 #88
Latina here artislife Oct 2015 #94
There's been a sea change as the primary season progresses Babel_17 Oct 2015 #95
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! You are exactly right and let's throw in Clinton fatigue, Anti Wall St. - in_cog_ni_to Oct 2015 #96
can't see how anyone could ignore this stuff. retrowire Oct 2015 #101
Never gonna happen. He's a gun-nut. Beausoir Oct 2015 #98
keep dancing! retrowire Oct 2015 #100
Bernie isn't going to get anywhere as large of a share of the African-American vote as Obama Freddie Stubbs Oct 2015 #103
but i'm not talking about racial demographics in this op. n/t retrowire Oct 2015 #105
Ignoring racial demographics is ignoring the key to the nomination Freddie Stubbs Nov 2015 #125
buuut retrowire Nov 2015 #126
Exactly. In 2008 I was not "youth" - TBF Oct 2015 #107
No, Bernie is not "appealing to the very same people that Obama had enchanted." Skinner Oct 2015 #109
i call those people retrowire Oct 2015 #111
I was actually referring to a specific group of people. Skinner Oct 2015 #112
I'm gonna go with... retrowire Oct 2015 #114
Yes, I was referring to African Americans. Skinner Oct 2015 #116
By "very same people" retrowire Oct 2015 #117
I am a Black voter, and Sanders appeals to me noiretextatique Oct 2015 #122
Despite prophecy being anything but logical, I admire your faith in it. LanternWaste Oct 2015 #123
Kick and R BeanMusical Oct 2015 #124
I ignore the BS, Nonsense Questions fredamae Nov 2015 #127
+1 nt retrowire Nov 2015 #128

jeff47

(26,549 posts)
2. And keep in mind, Sanders isn't running any ads yet.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 05:28 PM
Oct 2015

The plan for Clinton appears to be trying to relegate all opponents to "also-ran" status early. So she's spent 80% of the money she's raised doing things like large advertising campaigns.

Sanders is running a more "traditional" campaign in that his ads are going to be closer to the primary/caucus. Yet he's tied in NH and pretty close in IA, with nothing but Clinton ads on TV and radio - he got to "tied" with word of mouth and the Internet.

It ain't over yet.

 

HerbChestnut

(3,649 posts)
4. This is a really good point.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 05:32 PM
Oct 2015

Now that all the distractions are out of the way (Benghazi hearing and Biden), the real campaign begins. Right now it's 60-30 in Hillary's favor. Can Bernie get to 50% in 3 months? Maybe, but I don't think he will have to. If he wins Iowa and New Hampshire then all the momentum is in his favor, and a repeat of 2008 is in the cards.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
12. Um, you're only talking about Democratic voters. The biggest voting bloc in the country right now
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 06:22 PM
Oct 2015

are registered Independents. They make up over 42% of registered voters due to voters fleeing both major parties.

Dems have only 32% of registered voters. Hillary's lead even there has been diminished since Sanders entered the race and people got to know him.

Sorry, but no one can win with 75% of 32% of the electorate. Hillary has practically zero cross over appeal. Bernie has enormous crossover appeal, which has not even been polled yet.

tex-wyo-dem

(3,190 posts)
47. Hillary's zero crossover appeal can be seen...
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:59 PM
Oct 2015

In national polling where she consistently polls weaker against repub candidates than Bernie. To say she has a likeability and trust problem with republicans and a big segment of independents is an understatement.

 

Plucketeer

(12,882 posts)
40. Will the media take Bernie's money
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:48 PM
Oct 2015

as readily as they will from the others? Would it be possible that the corporate media could make it tough for Sanders to get ad time? I know they're money-grubbing entities, but wasn't there just an instance where one of them refused to run ads for a candidate for some ethical reason?

treestar

(82,383 posts)
6. More than the youth voted for Obama
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 05:45 PM
Oct 2015

Many of Obama's supporters are for Hillary.

And Obama was running against many qualified candidates, so Bernie having as much now as he did then is nothing. Bernie is running only against Hillary basically.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
8. false.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 06:06 PM
Oct 2015

2/3rds of Obamas biggest supporters were youth. He had the highest amount of the youth demographic supporting him, as does Bernie.

Also Bernie doesn't have as much now as Obama did then, he has more.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
52. As against far fewer electable opponents
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:05 PM
Oct 2015

Bernie is not contending with a crowd of opponents. He basically the anti-Hillary. No Kucinich, Biden, Richardson, and there were others.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
15. I am an Obama supporter now for Bernie. I remember the exact same claims 'he can't win' etc
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 06:24 PM
Oct 2015

back then. Bernie is actually ahead of where we were with Obama at this point.

Nearly everyone I know who is for Bernie now, was for Obama then. Bottom line, Hillary lost in 2008 to someone we were told couldn't possibly win.

Hillary will lose again to someone we are being told 'can't possiibly win'.

treestar

(82,383 posts)
50. You are not an Obama supporter for a very long time
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:04 PM
Oct 2015

and you cannot prove that majority of Obama supporters are in your disappointment camp, as they are not. Not every Obama voter of 2008 will be going for Bernie. No more than a small minority.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
56. keep those fingers crossed!
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:10 PM
Oct 2015

Explain to me why that majority (that has grown larger since then) that chose something that promised CHANGE instead of Hillary, would vote for Hillary now?

Please.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
91. I voted for Obama twice
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 10:57 PM
Oct 2015

I send him happy birthdays and greetings to Michelle all the time. I get loads of emails from him.

I love him and the family and I think this country is far better for having him in office.

He means a lot to all the minorities in this country. We have some dickheads, too but on the whole we see him, we see us.

I just now have the chance to vote in a true progressive and I am doing what I can to get him on the ballot!

TBF

(33,358 posts)
108. Not true - I actively volunteered for Obama
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 09:53 AM
Oct 2015

and I am supporting Bernie in this election.

Obama did not run "against many qualified candidates" - he came out of the blue with a lot of energy and defeated Hillary. And that is exactly what we're witnessing again with Bernie.

zalinda

(5,621 posts)
7. There is another factor
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 05:49 PM
Oct 2015

that no one has talked about. Will the newly politically aware Bernie supporters work for Hillary? I doubt it. Probably the die hard dems will, but I wouldn't count on any one else.

Bernie is bringing in people that usually don't get involved in politics, or are new to politics. They are excited by Bernie, and will get out the vote and basically work their butts off for Bernie. There is not that same excitement for Hillary, in fact, some downright can't stand her, more would just not care.

Z

TheFarS1de

(1,017 posts)
10. That is the elephant in the room .
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 06:16 PM
Oct 2015

If HC wins the nomination , I personally think it will be a disaster for Democrat voter turnout . The inspired independents will fade off and the simple fact is that the Clinton name will motivate the Republican base , taking the small section of moderate Republicans that would support Sanders over ANY Clinton in their book .

Time will tell , and I hope I am wrong ..... but it is what it is .

tex-wyo-dem

(3,190 posts)
58. Exactly...
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:11 PM
Oct 2015

That's what worries me as well. Maybe I'm wrong, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of excitement in the Dem ranks for Hillary, sort of a "been there, done that" attitude. This could likely affect voter turnout and down-ticket races.

One thing I'm not wrong about is the red hot hatred the RW has towards Clinton...this would very likely bring out the republicans in droves to vote against her.

sadoldgirl

(3,431 posts)
11. I hope you are right
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 06:19 PM
Oct 2015

However: Obama was supported by the party
establishment as well as the media, because
they liked the fight.
Here we see the DNC doing everything it can to
undermine Bernie, and the media trying to
block him out totally.

No, Bernie has a much much steeper hill to
climb than Obama did to get the nomination.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
60. True.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:13 PM
Oct 2015

But there are a lot of differences in Bernie's favor this time.

The youth generation is larger.

The social media powers are greater.

Bernie has more support now than Obama had at the same time then.

NanceGreggs

(27,835 posts)
14. I don't know how many times ...
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 06:22 PM
Oct 2015

… this has to be said before it sinks in: Bernie Sanders is no Obama. While BS may have his own qualities, he lacks the things that Obama brought to the 2008 election cycle. Obama was young, charismatic, an exceptionally eloquent speaker; BS is none of those things.

Obama’s focus was on what could be done in future to effect positive change. Bernie’s focus is on what’s gone wrong in the past – and it’s the same things he’s been railing about for decades. In addition, BS’s “plans” for changing things are vague at best, and largely unworkable.

“Now we have Bernie and he's appealing to the very same people that Obama had enchanted.”

No, actually he’s not. BS wanted Obama primaried in 2012, and continues to complain about what Obama has and has not accomplished. In so doing, BS has “disenchanted” millions of potential supporters who remain loyal to Obama.

“… since that same majority that elected Obama not only still exists, (they've grown larger) why would they vote for a centrist moderate that they didn't vote for the first time round?”

Firstly, calling HRC a “centrist moderate” is your label. It is not a label that millions of Democrats agree with. People base their perception of a candidate on their own opinion, not yours.

Secondly, you seem to forget how close HRC came to winning the nomination in 2008. She had millions of supporters then, and she has millions now. Of course, common sense would dictate that people who voted for Obama then won’t be voting for him in 2016 – because he’s not running. Think about how many people (myself included) who saw HRC as their second choice in 2008, and now see her as their first choice without Obama as competition. To think that anyone who didn’t vote for Hillary then won’t vote for her now is beyond ludicrous.

“The older generation has moved on …” Really? We of the “older generation” are very much still here – and we VOTE, while many of the younger generation still DON’T.

“Either way, the generation that voted Obama instead of Hillary is still here. I feel like it's honestly as if they're the elephant in the room that Hillary supporters aren't really thinking about.”

Again, this “logic” is so flawed as to be laughable. You seem to be assuming that anyone who voted for Obama over Hillary in 2008 did so because they would never vote for her, then or now. How many politicians have lost elections (including BS) they later came to win in subsequent years? According to your “logic”, no one should ever seek office again after a lost election, because people who didn’t vote for them the first time around would never vote for them a second time around – or even a third or fourth time around. Does that really make sense to you?

The “elephant in the room” that BS supporters continue to ignore is the blatantly obvious fact that Bernie Sanders isn’t Obama, not by a longshot – and pretending they are seen as comparable or equal by voters is downright silly.

NanceGreggs

(27,835 posts)
19. That "loser" is still the front-runner.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 06:33 PM
Oct 2015

That "loser" has far more support than BS does.

That "loser's" poll numbers keep rising, while BS's numbers have been stagnating for weeks.

That "loser" will be the next president.

NanceGreggs

(27,835 posts)
24. Again the assumption ...
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 06:56 PM
Oct 2015

... that (a) Bernie is the same as Obama, and (b) because HRC lost to Obama in 2008, that means she'll lose to BS in 2016.

HRC is not competing with Obama this time around. She's competing with a man who has none of the qualities that Obama has.

This pipe-dream that this primary and the 2016 election will play out exactly as they did in 2008 is just that - a pipe-dream.
Just take out Obama and slot-in BS - and it will all go the same way now as it did then. The lack of logical thinking there is astounding.


Number23

(24,544 posts)
27. This subthread is even more hilarious than the OP
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 06:59 PM
Oct 2015

I seriously applaud your fortitude.

Obama got anywhere from 70-90% minority support and Hillary's numbers are about the same. Bernie is getting about 10% from the same groups.

Somehow to the OP and the person you're chatting with, that means "Bernie's a better candidate" or has "enchanted" the same people who supported Obama. I mean what else can you do but laugh. HARD.

NanceGreggs

(27,835 posts)
30. Thanks, Number23!
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:22 PM
Oct 2015

As loathe as I am to cite DU as a reflection of real-life political realities, apparently the OP has missed the fact that many, MANY, posters here who have been staunchly anti-Obama for years are now Bernie supporters - so much for the notion that BS is "enchanting" Obama supporters.

The fact is that it's the consistent Obama-bashers here often cite the fact that BS is NOT Obama as their reason for supporting him.

But as you say, what can you do but laugh - really, REALLY hard!



 

senz

(11,945 posts)
33. Disingenuous, Nance.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:35 PM
Oct 2015

You write,

Obama’s focus was on what could be done in future to effect positive change. Bernie’s focus is on what’s gone wrong in the past – and it’s the same things he’s been railing about for decades. In addition, BS’s “plans” for changing things are vague at best, and largely unworkable.


Completely untrue. Bernie talks almost exclusively in the present and future. His proposals are quite specific, all the way down to how they will be paid.

Just make it up as you go along.

NanceGreggs

(27,835 posts)
48. Bernie has only one speech ...
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:01 PM
Oct 2015

... and it's the same one he's been giving, over and over: "Here's what's wrong with everything!"

As for his plans to change things, they all require congressional support. I don't see telling millions of people to march on Washington to tell Republicans they'll "be out of a job" if they don't go along as a viable plan.

 

senz

(11,945 posts)
61. Obviously you've never listened to him.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:14 PM
Oct 2015

You complain that he'll need congressional support to do help the American people. You overlook that your candidate, should she win the presidency, would also require congressional support -- unless she doesn't plan to do anything.

NanceGreggs

(27,835 posts)
66. Sadly, I have listened to him ...
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:26 PM
Oct 2015

... and have heard the same talking points over and over.

HRC already has the support of congressional Democats via their endorsements. BS has two endorsements - not a big vote of confidence there.

Bernie prides himself on being the "outsider", the "no compromise" candidate. Well, guess what? In a two-party system, compromise gets things done - and being the "outsider" means the insiders aren't likely to have your back.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
53. I'm going to let Nance Greggs write my posts from now on
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:07 PM
Oct 2015

because she's just way better at this than I could ever hope to be.

tex-wyo-dem

(3,190 posts)
71. That's one silly rebuttal ...
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:37 PM
Oct 2015

All sorts of things wrong with your reasoning. Too many to try to type in my iPhone.

For starters, Bernie's no Obama? No s**t, really? He may not be young like Obama was, but it sure doesn't seem to affect his popularity with young voters. He may not be as "eloquent" of a speaker as Obama, but he has a simple, straight-forward and powerful way of speaking that sure seems to resonate with people. And charisma? I happen to think Bernie has a huge amount of charisma, it's just different from Obama.

And Bernie's major platform of creating a political revolution where people who have and have not been previously involved in the political process get engaged and stay engaged to pressure the powers in government to make the changes we desparately need. Sounds like a pretty damn good plan to me. Much more effective than people just showing up to the voting booth every two to four years and that's it (if they even do that)...going back to normal life thinking everything is just going to be peachy. How's that been working for us?

There's more, but tired of typing on this little keyboard.

NanceGreggs

(27,835 posts)
75. If BS's messsage is resonating with people ...
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:48 PM
Oct 2015

... how do you explain his low, now all-but-stagnant poll numbers?

As for your comment that "Bernie's no Obama? No s**t, really", you might want to explain that to the OP, who seems to believe that BS is "appealing to the very same people that Obama had enchanted".

What I've seen so far in this thread is that voters are being drawn to BS because he's just like Obama and he's not Obama all at the same time.

zalinda

(5,621 posts)
97. And, thank dog he isn't
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 12:55 AM
Oct 2015

People came out in droves to vote for Obama because they wanted change. And, actually, not much has changed here in poor people's land. I remember 3 black women talking in K-Mart, they said don't worry Obama is going to fix everything. I knew they were going to be disappointed, but I kept my mouth shut. Oh, and that K-Mart......closed.

As for Obama's speeches, he really never said anything. People would come out and you'd ask him what he said, and all they could remember was that hope and change thing. Bernie's people come out from a speech and know exactly what he said.

Hillary has learned though from Obama, her speeches are pretty much the same thing now. What the hell does she stand for and what is she against. Who knows? Apparently she's not telling anyone until she's President.

Here's why people are coming out for Bernie.

Goodbye Middle Class: 51 Percent Of All American Workers Make Less Than 30,000 Dollars A Year

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/10/goodbye-middle-class-51-percent-of-all-american-workers-make-less-than-30000-dollars-a-year.html


You can find the report that the Social Security Administration just released right here. The following are some of the numbers that really stood out for me…

-38 percent of all American workers made less than $20,000 last year.

-51 percent of all American workers made less than $30,000 last year.

-62 percent of all American workers made less than $40,000 last year.

-71 percent of all American workers made less than $50,000 last year.


And, I'm below that, even with food stamps and my Medicaid/Medicare perks, I'm topped out at maybe $12,000 a year. And, again no COLA.

Some people are comfortable with their incomes, but most of us are not, and we see Hillary as a no win situation.

Z

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
17. I supported Obama in 2007, actually, wanted him to run for years before that.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 06:28 PM
Oct 2015

I am a solid Hillary Clinton supporter this year.

<---- That's your logic.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
23. Because I supported Obama then.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 06:41 PM
Oct 2015

If Obama had not got into the race, I would have supported Hillary.

NanceGreggs

(27,835 posts)
28. Same here ...
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:08 PM
Oct 2015

... and it was the same for many of us in 2008. Had Obama not entered the race, we'd now be discussing who Hillary's successor will be in 2016.

This is the "elephant in the room" that BS supporters just refuse to acknowledge - a vote for Obama in 2008 was a vote FOR Obama, not a vote AGAINST Hillary.

The "logic" of BSers on this point isn't flawed - it is simply non-existent.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
29. that does not explain why you didnt support hillary then
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:16 PM
Oct 2015

that's a weird answer to be honest.

"Why did you choose the Mac and cheese instead of the French fries?"

"because I chose the Mac and cheese"

what?

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
32. Yes, it does.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:32 PM
Oct 2015

I lived in Illinois at the time. I had met Barack Obama on multiple occasions. A close relative lived in the same cooperative as the Obamas before he ever sought public office all the way up to the point where he purchased a different home in Hyde Park.

Had he not run, I would have supported Hillary.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
35. these details are much more helpful
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:42 PM
Oct 2015

so then, would you have been for Bernie this time round had you lived in Vermont and met the man multiple times?

just a question and I mean nothing by this but, is having met a candidate really enough to give them a leg up on possibly superior competition?

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
39. No.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:47 PM
Oct 2015

I don't vote for Socialists. I vote for Democrats. I've known many Republicans, Greens, and Libertarians who sought office and I never voted for any of them.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
43. ahhhh
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:54 PM
Oct 2015

so this is a party loyalty kind of thing? I guess I can't argue with you there if that's how you feel.

personally, I'm with a few of the founding fathers on that matter.

www.ritholtz.com/blog/2011/07/founding-fathers-beware-two-party-system/

but that's the system we have and it will never change. we are not a nation united, we are divided by red and blue. so be it.

still, thanks for discussing with me. I'm glad we got to the root of it.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
45. Again, no. I have a fundamental disagreement with the basis of Socialism.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:58 PM
Oct 2015

Socialism seeks to provide government control of the means of production. I have a fundamental disagreement with that.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
51. A Democratic Socialism
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:04 PM
Oct 2015

is a combination of capitalism and socialism.. Which is inherently what America should have always been.

A competitive market, with rules and regulations to prevent monopolies and other indecencies.

Plus...

Why the hell does everyone see Socialism, then look at Bernie and think, "that man wants to do the EXACT DEFINITION of socialism!"

No... Every economic ideology can evolve and be changed. Pure capitalism is freaking ruthless, I would HATE that world. Pure Socialism is inefficient. But together, they can seriously aid one another.

So yes, you're right that pure socialism lends government complete control over production, but... That's not what Bernie is about.

Remember in 2000 when Microsoft was taken to court by the U.S. government because of monopoly charges? That's democratic socialism at work.

You seriously can't have a fundamental disagreement with government oversight like that. One of the Democratic party's main purposes is to regulate things with federal oversight. Democratic socialism is the democratic party's mantra.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
67. Democratic Solcialism is simply imposing the socialism econimic system via a democratic political...
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:28 PM
Oct 2015

system. The basis of Democratic Socialism is to still impose governmental control of the means of production.

I fundamentally disagree with this. In fact, I disagree with that basic principle more than I disagree with Republicans, whom I've spent an entire lifetime opposing.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
69. Okay.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:34 PM
Oct 2015

So that scenario that happened to Microsoft. Which was a democratic socialist act...

You're against that?

Are you implying that you believe that Microsoft should have been allowed to continue buying all smaller competitors so that they would keep their stranglehold on the market, they would continue to grow and swell until they became an unbeatable entity. All "mom and pop" businesses that would dare try to enter the business would be destroyed.

You're fundamentally against that?

You're beginning to blow my mind here.

Democratic Socialism is exactly what the American economy was supposed to be. Federal oversight will prevent corporations and other private entities from becoming overpowered and controlling too much. But Reaganomics took over, now we have the current system, where corporations are encouraged to grow and cut costs left and right.

You're fundamentally against the polar opposite of that kind of ideal?

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
72. What you describe has precisely nothing to do with governmental control of the means of production.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:37 PM
Oct 2015

eom

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
76. Oh?
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:51 PM
Oct 2015

So if the federal government takes an entity responsible for producing goods to court over the fact that they were doing something illegal, that does nothing to take over the control of the goods they produce? In a way, it clearly does. Microsoft could have been harmed greatly if they had not complied, and they would have produced goods, at a much more reduced rate.

So you're fundamentally against unions then? There's an example of a socialist organization that owns the means of a production.

Before you continue to assert that you have a very concrete understanding of what Democratic Socialism is, I want to remind you that it is an ideology that is capable of evolution and adjustment, just as any other. So read beyond the first sentence on Wikipedia's entry of Democratic Socialism, scroll on down to the section that reads "Relation to economics" and gain the understanding that whatever you're fundamentally against regarding Democratic Socialism, you're likely supportive of many other things that came from it.

Hopefully you'll also see that no Democratic Socialist is much like the other.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
77. No. Regulation of commerce is clearly a power spelled out in the constitution.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 09:04 PM
Oct 2015

Regulation is not control. Control of the means of production requires nationalization of industry which then is run via governmental bureaucracy.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
78. but the important detail left out in your definition is
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 09:11 PM
Oct 2015

that government isn't supposed to act independently of the people it serves.

in democratic socialism, look it up, it is SOCIETY that controls the means of production through the government that serves them.

what you're describing is the government acting on their own in controlling goods. that's a bit closer to communism which is a common misconception when reading into this.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
82. Even though it's fair and would protect people from being oppressed
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 09:27 PM
Oct 2015

by individual entities and corporations.

Can you clearly explain to me, what is so bad about it?

And please, keep it on topic, we're discussing Democratic Socialism, not pure socialism.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
83. I believe it is unfair and oppresses people through a bureaucratic nightmare
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 09:42 PM
Oct 2015

So you aren't ever going to convince me that it is a viable system.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
86. Then you have greatly misunderstood me
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 09:51 PM
Oct 2015

Corporations oppress people by creating economic inequality, ruining fair market practices, ruining the environment and peoples health, etc, etc, etc, etc....

So now that we're clear on how I "believe corporations oppress people" you tell me how Democratic Socialism "oppresses" anyone.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
90. Worse would happen under a bureaucratic nightmare through government control of the means of...
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 10:55 PM
Oct 2015

production.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
99. facepalm*
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 05:49 AM
Oct 2015

that government would be controlled by the people themselves.

therefore they could not be oppressed. all that regulation and control over production would be based on what society themselves choose, why would society themselves choose unfair practices and such?

nevermind i'm not repeating this point any further, I'm talking to a wall and it looks like we're just going in circles here. you just keep repeating "oppression" without explaining how.

thanks for your time.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
104. yeah and?
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 09:11 AM
Oct 2015

that have always been oppressors.

you have yet to say how democratic socialism is oppressive.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
106. No matter how well Democratic Socialists attempt to make it work
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 09:20 AM
Oct 2015

Republicans will destroy it.

Nope, you won;t convince me. A Democratic Socialist form of government/economic system would be a horrid disaster.

Anybody but Sanders.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
110. alright hillary then, but wait!
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 11:09 AM
Oct 2015

your fear of Republicans poses the EXACT SAME OBSTACLE there.

well I guess we're screwed!

we're done, seriously. you have still not explained how democratic socialism is oppressive. you've degenerated into pointing the finger at Republicans. of course THEY'RE the problem, we all know that but let's use that as some excuse to explain the "fundamental opposition" to democratic socialism.

wow.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
113. You are not convincing me
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 11:20 AM
Oct 2015

And I gave you the explanation.

Government control of the means of production has failed miserably every time it has been attempted resulting in horrid oppression, such as the oppression under Hugo Chavez.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
115. dat aint democratic socialism lol try again
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 11:25 AM
Oct 2015

no wait don't try again, this is going nowhere.

you said I'm not going to convince you right? second to that you keep pointing at socialist and communist examples of why democratic socialism is bad.

one more shot: http://www.dsausa.org/what_is_democratic_socialism

we're done.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
118. Hugo Chavez and his entire government were democratically ELECTED.
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 12:29 PM
Oct 2015

That sure as shit is democratic socialism, which ALWAYS results in brutal dictatorial regimes in the end.

You will never be capable of convincing me. History proves the disaster of what happens when government controls the means of production.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
119. being elected democratically
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 12:35 PM
Oct 2015

is NOT the same as governing a nation with democratic socialist ideals.

please, stop trying or read this: http://www.dsausa.org/what_is_democratic_socialism

oh BTW, how oppressed are the people of Sweden and Denmark right now? oh they're not? Denmark is rated the happiest country on earth?!

http://usuncut.com/world/here-are-9-reasons-denmarks-socialist-economy-leaves-the-us-in-the-dust/

look at all that oppression that you're "fundamentally against".

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
121. thank you for your time.
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 01:37 PM
Oct 2015

I was really hoping to learn something I didn't know but it appears we both wasted our time with that endeavor.

have a good day. I mean it. its Friday, let's enjoy it.

NanceGreggs

(27,835 posts)
34. I don't understand your confusion.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:37 PM
Oct 2015

We had a different group of candidates in 2008 than we do now.

Given the choice among the 2008 candidates, voters chose to support Obama over HRC. Given the choices now, voters are choosing HRC over BS.

I supported Obama in 2008 because I thought he was the best person for the job of POTUS. I am supporting HRC now because I think she's the best person for the job.

If you chose mac-'n'-cheese over French fries at one meal, does that mean you'll never eat French fries again for the rest of your life?

 

Old Codger

(4,205 posts)
36. Well
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:42 PM
Oct 2015

I totally agree, but it isn't just the younger generation a lot of us in the "older" generation are still with the progressive agenda..


I didn't vote for her first timeout and will not vote for her in the primary this time out...as for the general, if she actually gets that far ( i sincerely hope not) I will once again hold my nose and go for the lesser of the 2 evils..

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
38. oh i meant no disrespect old timer.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:47 PM
Oct 2015

I was only saying of all candidates, he had the most youth behind him. of course there were more than just that.

and I totally agree with you about the holding the nose part. I don't want to do it... but I'll have to.

 

Old Codger

(4,205 posts)
42. No sweat
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:52 PM
Oct 2015

Did not take offense at that was just pointing out that quite a lot of us "old farts" are pretty tired of getting screwed over and are pretty tired of watching all that we have worked to achieve in building this country to what it was go down the shitter. With proper leadership it could become great again..

ucrdem

(15,700 posts)
44. Clinton was the anti-Obama in 2008; now she's on our team and Sanders is the anti-O.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 07:54 PM
Oct 2015

That's the logic.

ucrdem

(15,700 posts)
49. No comparison whatsoever. None.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:03 PM
Oct 2015

Not only that but Bernie launched his campaign by openly challenging Obama and questioning his motives in his anti-TPP rhetoric, which I found repulsive on several levels, not to mention dishonest. There's no question but that Sanders its the anti-Obama this time around.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
54. lol ok
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:09 PM
Oct 2015

disagreeing with the former president on his methods, and promising to do the same only better, does NOT make you the opposite of that president.

Seriously, Bernie is running on the same platform, he said that Obama didn't go far enough, which even I agree with. He won, walked into the white house, said "Don't worry, I GOT THIS" and left all those impassioned activists he encouraged out on the streets.

Bernie is basically the second chance for those people left behind by Obama.

Bernie didn't say Obama sucks at his job, he only said that he didn't come through enough.

ucrdem

(15,700 posts)
63. I heard exactly what he said.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:16 PM
Oct 2015

At one point I did a transcript search and he said it repeatedly. Yes, he's running as the anti-Obama, and he knows it. I imagine he also know that he can't possibly win the Dem nomination. That explains why he hasn't bothered to declare as a Dem, but why is he running at all?

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
65. So he said "I am the anti-Obama"
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:20 PM
Oct 2015

I'm going to wait for you to give me the source to that quote.

And quotes aside, his platform is closer to Obama's than Hillary's is.

NanceGreggs

(27,835 posts)
57. No, he's not.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:11 PM
Oct 2015

If BS is "similar" to Obama, how do you explain all of BS's supporters declaring they support Bernie because he's NOT Obama? If BS is "similar" to Obama, why did he want Obama primaried in 2012?

The revisionist history being promoted here is astounding. What's obvious is that BS is stagnating in the polls as HRC surges ahead. So now the "BS is NOT Obama" crowd are suddenly trying to convince people that if you liked Obama, you'll love Bernie.

No sale. You can peddle that bullshit as much as you like - but nobody's buying.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
74. That actually makes some sense, in a way. Hillary always seems to hitch her wagon to falling stars.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:43 PM
Oct 2015
 

DrBulldog

(841 posts)
59. Your logic is only halfway there.
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:12 PM
Oct 2015

There are 75,000,000 millennials in our country now. Only 10% of them voted in the last Federal elections.

Bernie already has the support of 2/3 of the millennials - and he is only getting started.

So the choice is this:

Nominate Bernie. Massive voter turnout by the engaged millennials. Landslide for Bernie. At least one house of Congress returns to the Democrats. Bernie can now start working to fix some of our horrible problems.

Nominate Hillary. Another weak voter turnout with a general boycott by the millennials. Narrow win by Hillary. Both houses of Congress remain firmly locked in by the Republicans. Hillary spends at least four years sitting on her butt with a weak smile in the Oval Office doing NOTHING or CAVING in to the GOP.

The problem with your logic is there is no guarantee, in fact it is unlikely, that the American voting public will even be able to see this far ahead to pick Bernie. Corporate America will be fighting to get Hillary into the White House because she is already bought-and-paid-for and that is a powerful force to overcome.

So Bernie may not win - and America will lose.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
64. Well it's not just millenials!
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 08:17 PM
Oct 2015

The majority of America is distrustful of their media these days.

Word of mouth and social media is much more trusted.

Keep in mind that the prevailing generations right now are Cold War Kids and Generation X. Both of these generations have seen first hand how our own country can lie to us with false information and propaganda.

They are the generations of skeptics. They rarely take ANYTHING at face value.

Combine that with the fact that the internet allows us ALL to be fact checkers instantaneously at all times.

I believe there is much more in Bernie's favor than people see on the surface.

 

Codeine

(25,586 posts)
87. Where does that figure come from?
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 09:57 PM
Oct 2015

The two-thirds of 75 million, I mean? I'd like to see more detail on that.

 

artislife

(9,497 posts)
92. If we elect h, we will lose
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 11:08 PM
Oct 2015

I just think we are past a tipping point on so many things. We don't need mild sause. We need Siracha!

H=weak, milk toast, caver
Sanders=visionary, climate change focused, independent

 

mythology

(9,527 posts)
88. Except Sanders isn't showing that he is able to win the African American vote
Thu Oct 22, 2015, 10:46 PM
Oct 2015

And given Sanders has repeatedly voted against the most recent immigration bills (regardless of his reasoning), he's unlikely to make inroads with the Hispanic vote which was strongly for Clinton in 2008.

The Obama coalition wasn't just young voters. It was young voters, blacks and liberals. Sanders only has two legs of that stool.

Babel_17

(5,400 posts)
95. There's been a sea change as the primary season progresses
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 12:05 AM
Oct 2015

Primary voters have lost faith in the era of Washington insiders coming out to bend their ears.

Senator Sanders is on track for a second round of journalists "discovering" his campaign. His will be the one where crowds of enthusiastic people come to hear talk of Progressive values, and a Progressive platform. He'll be engaging with the voters, and the journalists will once again marvel at it all.

And of course most prominent journalists aren't total idiots. They're fueling this upcoming narrative by the manner in which they're covering the primary contest today.

in_cog_ni_to

(41,600 posts)
96. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! You are exactly right and let's throw in Clinton fatigue, Anti Wall St. -
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 12:08 AM
Oct 2015

- OWS! Anti Corporations, Anti Prisons for Profits, Anti FRACKING, Anti Big oil, Anti Big Ag, Anti Big Pharma and Anti GMOs/MONSANTO. <<<<<------- Hillary is connected to ALL of that.

Bernie's got this one - BIG TIME.

PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE

TBF

(33,358 posts)
107. Exactly. In 2008 I was not "youth" -
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 09:50 AM
Oct 2015

I was a very disgruntled Gen-ex'er who returned to the political scene to support Obama because I thought he could actually beat the republicans. After 8 years of a horrible Bush presidency (that turned the war machine up to 11) we needed to act boldly and put an adult in office. We did that and despite some issues (ACA is not medicare for all, the drone thing is really not cool, etc) we at least stopped the hemorrhaging. I don't want to return to the years of Bush or Clinton (NAFTA, repeal of key portions of Glass-Steagal etc). We can build on what Obama has done and make improvements with Bernie.

Skinner

(63,645 posts)
109. No, Bernie is not "appealing to the very same people that Obama had enchanted."
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 10:26 AM
Oct 2015

It's clear that he is appealing to some of the same people that Obama had enchanted. But there is a very large and very important part of the Obama coalition that (so far) is not feeling the Bern. You don't help your candidate by completely forgetting the role that they played in Obama's victory.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
111. i call those people
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 11:12 AM
Oct 2015

the ones who haven't heard Bernie's message yet.

of course not all will "feel the bern" and its for many reasons.

fear of unelectability, fear of "socialism", fear of republicans, fear of his old age, etc etc

some people actually have legit opposition to Bernie. the death penalty for instance I've seen someone used as a reason.

but other than that, most that don't support him will likely do it out of fear. that's my hypothesis.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
114. I'm gonna go with...
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 11:21 AM
Oct 2015

African American voters?

demographics be damned. people are people. they can hear Bernie's message just the same as any other person.

their reasons to accept and object to it can be as varied as well.

Skinner

(63,645 posts)
116. Yes, I was referring to African Americans.
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 11:50 AM
Oct 2015

My point is that your OP is based on the claim that Bernie Sanders is appealing to "very same people" who supported Obama in 2008. This claim is clearly false. Now, there is still time for Bernie Sanders to appeal to African American voters (and other people who supported Obama eight years ago). But no matter how hard he tries I think it is pretty unlikely that Bernie Sanders will be able to achieve the level of primary support from African Americans that Obama enjoyed. Without comparable support among African Americans, it will be pretty difficult for Bernie Sanders to overtake Hillary Clinton.

retrowire

(10,345 posts)
117. By "very same people"
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 12:16 PM
Oct 2015

I wasn't inferring race or demographics like that, I was inferring the general sentiment of a group of people that are displeased with our current economy, foreign policies, domestic issues and what not.

Again, exact demographics be damned, my hypothesis is directed towards the people as a whole, no specifics really. Just the majority that is discontented with "politics as usual".

noiretextatique

(27,275 posts)
122. I am a Black voter, and Sanders appeals to me
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 03:38 PM
Oct 2015

Why wouldn't he? He is the only candidiate who gives me hope for the change that did not materialize with Obama. For many reasons, I do not think Sandera will be the majority of the Black vote, but he has been making some gains.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
123. Despite prophecy being anything but logical, I admire your faith in it.
Fri Oct 23, 2015, 04:32 PM
Oct 2015

Despite absolute prophecy being anything but logical, I deeply admire your faith in it.

fredamae

(4,458 posts)
127. I ignore the BS, Nonsense Questions
Thu Nov 19, 2015, 10:27 AM
Nov 2015

Taunts etc. So do my friends and family-locally. We are confident in our candidate and recognize this very juvenile behavior as one of a sort of panic over fears of losing.

No one actually has presented a good, rationale, documented objection to any of Sanders policies. It's so far..all manufactured nonsense.

If people want to know something..no matter how insignificant-call the Campaign. If it involves questions about a Vote...call his office. If one wants to make claims about this vote or that vote without first asking Why position A or B was taken....you look the fool Not person you are trying to make look inferior.

I heard comments about Sander having voted against an immigration bill. No one ask him Why. Funny thing about bills that have "poison pills" embedded.

The only funny thing here is the fact that folks are very quick to criticize about the only federal lawmaker that actually Reads a piece of legislation Before voting as they simultaneously complain about their own reps "blindly voting" the wrong way on most.
Just my observation and opinion(s)

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