Reminder: "pussy" is a gendered slur. "Ugly" to critique a woman doing her job is a sexist insult.

[bettyellen]

Last edited Thu Oct 20, 2016, 07:34 PM - Edit history (1)

The normalization of this shit here is wrong- it's exactly what the GOP wants. This AM I caught three threads about how ugly and shitty women look. Nothing of substance- just ugly.

Edited to add- stop pretending there is no context and we are not talking about putting down women who are working as so unattractive. three threads did that this AM and had no comments on what they did- just their looks.
That is one degree away from Trump rating women from 1-10.
They are not there to delight your eyeballs, they are working

I don't care if they are GOP. It is still sexist. Let's not do this.

[stopbush]

1. Exactly.

And I really wish Bill Maher would quit using the words "pussy" and "bitch" to knock males.

[Democat]

2. Calling Donald Trump ugly is sexist?

Ugly is not gender specific.

[Wilms]

4. Agreed. The hyperventilating should be embarrassing.

However, the context in which he uses a term like "ugly" seems clear and unacceptable. And "pussy", I believe, is really unreasonable to a lot of reasonable people.

[NCTraveler]

8. Pussy, when used to show weakness, is completely sexist. That is how it is normally used.

Ugly has a lot more contextual issues. I can say Bachmann is ugly on the inside and would be perfectly correct. It becomes sexist when discussing appearances simply because we know society overall has put unobtainable standards on what a woman should look like.

[Wilms]

10. Yup.

That's why I got grossed out by a lot of threads and posts about how "lovely" HRC looked last night. And running the 23 yr old Vogue pix.

Seems utterly beside the point. How about if she was less "attractive"? What bearing would that have?? Those comments open up a venue wholly inappropriate to an election and women rights.

[bettyellen]

55. Thanks- the context of the "ugly" was threads here started just to trash women's looks.... Working

Women. People pretend there was no context but that's what they do. Comparing professional
women to tee shirts, wall paper, potential dates on tinder. Give me a break.

[bettyellen]

54. I edited my OP for clarity- but I did give context the threads were only about shallow attractivenes

Of women working in the political system. I know there have always been a few people here who think "anything goes" when it comes to the GOP, but it still remains a deeply sexist and shallow way to treat working women. Same as Donald, people think rating the attractiveness of women is okay as long as they praise liberal women and only trash the GOP- they're missing the point it's all sexist. They are not here to visually please you. You don't see three active threads on men's looks ever. Never will.

[Wilms]

56. Yep. It's a line for me.

It's wrong on many levels.

But I'll open that up to include all women, not just those "working". Plus, that's an old standard nearly at this point. A few generations ago, sure. But now? "People work".

[bettyellen]

57. I could make an exception for those who's business it is to be look whatever for a living

Because that is germane to her work. But I'm sick of this "men too" cross when we know the rules have always been different for women. It's like saying all lives matter.

We women have borne the brunt of this crap for years. And I do think standards should be higher for the workplace, and also for DU. Women are saving this nation from the horror that is Trump. I think it's about time people realize we deserve their respect for what we say and do, as opposed to the shell we were born with .

[Wilms]

59. I'd agree more with what you are saying 40 years ago.

At this point, it's becoming so different in large swathes of society. Kid's growing up today in many places don't learn or suffer the commonplace disrespect of "the old days".

And I said kids. Not just girls. Because, ultimately, modeling sexism to boys is abusive. That was a world of unrealized potential.

I understand we have a long way to go, but we've come a long way. I think the battle cries are less called for. It's happening on it's own. I see youth today who, if not for a history lesson, would have no idea of the struggles of their grandmothers.

And that's beautiful.

[bettyellen]

60. Battle cries, lol. Nope. Simple standards. Look at the crap excuses people

Give for this level of disrespect. I deserve better and we've only come this far because people demanded better. In government and in the workplace we still have very far to go in terms of equal rights (reproductive freedom has seriously eroded) and opportunities and compensation. We are still so behind most other modern countries. Sugar coating it doesn't get us anywhere, respecting women as our equals does. It's a habit some DUers need to develop.

[Wilms]

64. Well yeah.

But I disagree with a frame that's, "I deserve better". You have at least a number of males on this board that didn't frame it that way. (OK, easy for a guy, maybe.)

The male response here to sexism is more along the line of, "talking like that is pretty messed up...you oughtta know". It's not an argument anymore in a LOT of places. And it's not that women are welcome in the club. It's that misogynist are not!

[bettyellen]

66. If you noticed it's still arguable here....

And all of us at DU deserve better. Not all of em want it but screw that.

[Wilms]

67. That's because you are arguing.

First off, you missed the beat with your OP and had to edit to get it on track. So that skewed responses here and made you come off like the "I deserve better" frame that isn't really effective.

I'd like to think that Mineral Man pointed out a lot of stuff well and didn't argue it. Because most people get it.

Lotta anger in this world, betty. Gotta give the slip sometimes.

[bettyellen]

68. You're advocating silence or is it just I'm not "keeping it sweet" enough for you? Are you really

Concerned I am angry- it is that just a little poke because you need to rationalize silencing women? Because shit gets better when we all sit down and shut up? Nope.

You gotta love when people like yourself pick an argument and then accuse the other person of being pissy. Sorry if you've been reading the tone wrong. Not sorry I won't shut up when I see sexism or racism -it's not an option for me. I was raised to be better than that.

[Wilms]

70. Have a good evening. n/t

[bettyellen]

71. LOL

[TeeYiYi]

83. I'm concerned that you're angry!...

Actually,...no. No I'm not.

TYY

[bettyellen]

84. gotta love people who are basically telling you to STFU pretending they're so sweet and chill. HA

Last edited Sat Oct 22, 2016, 10:25 PM - Edit history (1)

[bettyellen]

25. It would be if working men were routinely judged solely on their looks! Like women still are, here

At DU today.

Context anyone?

[TCJ70]

26. You should read up on dating site behavior...

...there's a reason that certain men on those sites get the number of requests they do just like there's a reason certain women get the number of requests they do.

Ugly is not geared towards one gender or the other. It's the most unisex of insults.

[bettyellen]

30. The context is... This is a progressive website and people here are rating working politicos as if..

They are Donald Trump himself. It's got fuck all to do with dating sites. People here are rating these women as dogs- just like Trump does to WORKING WOMEN.and it's not okay. Context.

[TCJ70]

69. The only thing close to what you're going off about...

...that I've seen was a post suggesting Trump's campaign manager was looking rough. Understandable since those jobs are probably pretty stressful. I don't look at this site all the time so may have missed whatever you're talking about if someone literally said "She's ugly."

That being said, people make judgements based on appearance all the time and the behavior studied on dating sites is very revealing on just how widespread of a phenomenon this is. It's also likely that most of the women and men on those sites are WORKING MEN AND WOMEN.

The point is, people get judged on their appearances all the time. It's a thing we do. If someone thinks someone looks a little rough, as in the case I referenced earlier, that doesn't necessarily mean that they thing that person is bad or not good at their job. It may just mean they think the job is weighing on them.

[bettyellen]

82. No, it's a thing you do. And while people are working- it's unwelcome, hurtful and sexist.

Not everyone does it - many are aware the world is not a contest for you to judge. You've gotta be pretty dense to think that most people actually care to hear how you rate others.

[TCJ70]

85. Enjoy your high horse!

And I never said anyone cared what I thought. Judgement is part of the human experience, right or wrong.

[bettyellen]

86. people used to say the same shit about slavery, segregation and the subjugation of women too.

Enjoy staying firmly in the 20th century. Here in the 21st your thoughts on "hot or not" regarding working women are unwelcome most places - including here.


Do you even listen to yourself? You just accused me of being uppity. LOL. Grow up.

[TCJ70]

87. You're passing an awful lot of judgement yourself...

...for some so offended. You know nothing about me other than that I acknowledge people pass judgement based on appearances and you've relegated me to a 20th century, slavery and subjugation mindset. You've also posted zero links as examples of what you're talking about. You keep talking about context, but haven't provided any.

[bettyellen]

89. Seriously? The context is how we treat working women here at DU.

And you're advocating that it's cool if you all behave as if this is tinder or something. Not sure what the hell you need links for, LOL.

[Loki Liesmith]

3. Boy that shirt is ugly

[bettyellen]

31. Bullshit -I was talking about human beings, just trying to do their jobs. If they had criticized

Their work, it would be different. But DU was running a little beauty contest this AM. No better than that pic Trump.

[MineralMan]

5. Ugly is actually sex neutral.

It's just an insult and ignores all other aspects of a person other than appearance. But ugly does not apply to just one sex.

Both men and women can be characterized as ugly, but it's very rude and simplistic to do so. Ugly can also apply to a person's demeanor. It has nothing to do with the sex of a person, necessarily, so it's not sexist in itself.

[Cooley Hurd]

6. Merriam / Webster's

ugly
adjective ug·ly ˈə-glē

Simple Definition of ugly
: unpleasant to look at : not pretty or attractive
: unpleasant to hear
: offensive or disgusting

[MineralMan]

7. Lots of things are ugly.

There are ugly cars. There are ugly houses.

[NCTraveler]

9. Here is why I disagree when talking about appearance.

There is an unfair standard placed on women in society. Calling a woman ugly in no way has the same affect as calling a man ugly.

That is not to say one cannot call a woman ugly and not be sexist. It's kind of like porn.

[MineralMan]

12. Here's the thing: Calling anyone ugly is based on

a personal opinion about what is attractive, whether it's regarding a man or a woman. There is no objective measure of attractiveness. That's why it's a word that should be used vary carefully and with some explanation in referring to others.

There is no single standard of attractiveness. I can say that I find someone to be unattractive or not, but to what end? What does my judgment of that have to do with anything? Since such negative characterizations are taken as insults by the target, I cannot imagine any circumstances where such words should be used as descriptors.

I'm just not comfortable with negative assessments of people, when they are based on personal preferences. I do not like Donald Trump, for many reasons. I might say so, and have, in fact. But I prefer to use other adjectives that are more objective than ones having to do with appearance to make my point.

[NCTraveler]

15. "There is no objective measure of attractiveness."

I don't think that is historically or currently accurate with respect societal views on women.

"There is no single standard of attractiveness."

I disagree with that as well when it comes to how society views women. Then again, it's the same thing.

"I'm just not comfortable with negative assessments of people, when they are based on personal preferences. I do not like Donald Trump, for many reasons. I might say so, and have, in fact. But I prefer to use other adjectives that are more objective than ones having to do with appearance to make my point."

I have read your posts for a long time. I believe you truly live this. That is one of the big reasons I have always respected you. I appreciate this paragraph and believe you live it.

[bettyellen]

17. I guess you'll need context. Threads here criticizing working women for how they looked- and

Nothing else. And yes, it's sexist as fuck.

[MineralMan]

27. Context is always essential.

Without it we have no reference for posts that have little content. If you want to be understood providing context is necessary.

[bettyellen]

28. It was all there when I said three threads where women were criticized solely for their looks-

You already knew this would refer to pols or pundits.... And that there is no excuse to rate these women's appearance SAME AS TRUMP DOES.

Context was here in spades. You overlooked it.

[bettyellen]

32. Everyone likes to pretend I didn't say it was women. Being judged solely on their looks....

Here they are proudly comparing those women to wallpaper and tee shirts. Playing stupid. Pretending there is no context. Fuck that.

[Cakes488]

11. Pussy is another word for a vagina just as prick is for penis

I don't agree that just saying the word pussy is automatically sexist.

[MineralMan]

13. You know, there is an almost infinite number of

insulting synonyms for vulva. I could write down a long list of them just off the top of my head, but will not. Almost all of them involve negative connotations. If a person speak in a negative way about a part of the female anatomy, then the word used becomes sexist, automatically.

Further, none of those are not synonyms for the word "vagina," either. The human vagina is an internal anatomical structure, which is not what all those synonyms attempt to describe.

If you are interested in such a list, I'll refer you to this link:

https://namingschemes.com/Vagina_Synonyms

We have perfectly good words in English that we use as non-loaded names for parts of the body. I suggest we use those. They have no negative connotations at all. They are anatomical terms.

You may not agree with me, but agreement is not what I'm looking for. So, it matters little to me. I'm speaking about how language is commonly used. Some usages are within the norm for polite speech. Others are decidedly not.

[Cakes488]

16. So that goes for Prick too...that's sexist?

[Hekate]

20. Cakes, I'm pretty sure you know it is a derogatory term, along with others I don't need to list...

....for your amusement.

Let's just say that Obama, Biden, and Trump all have penises. No one would ever call any of these men "a penis." It's something they have, not what they are.

When you call a man one of the euphemisms for the male or female genitalia, it is fully known to be a derogatory term for his personality and indeed his being.

[Cakes488]

22. There is no doubt that it can be used as a derogatory term but I asked if it was sexist.

I could easily use penis in a derogatory way if I want and most certainly have. So now you want to police all the derogatory terms? You want me to stop saying "Hey stop being a dick" because it's a male body part? What about stop being an asshole? That's a body part too. I think this is a slippery slope here. I understand you are offended but I (and a lot of other people) are not. So who is correct here? Who's views are right and more important than the other ones?

You are just going to have to accept the fact that some of us Democrats have a bit of Deplorable in them.

[bettyellen]

35. We have standard here that preclude the use of genders slurs. "Pussy" is one.

We're sick of WORKING WOMEN being rated on their looks. Donald is in a heap of trouble for this- why would you think it is okay here. This is not Reddit or Jackpine and if you like using sexist slurs, have at it there.

[Cakes488]

42. I agree that working women should not be rated on looks. I was making a different

argument. I have a different opinion about what is sexist and what is not. Rating a woman by just her looks or her body attributes yes is sexist...that's obvious. I don't think the word pussy is automatically sexist and neither is dick et al. You feel differently...that's fine I can understand it and can respect that, but you can't do the same for me. You are too busy trying to be righteous. This is the very thing that turns people off from liberals.

In a perfect world nobody would make fun of anyone else ever. Kelly Conway should not be called ugly or a piece of shit or the last 10 minutes of prom because she's a "working woman" ...well we shouldn't do it because she's a woman...period. And on the same token we should not be making fun of trump and his motley crew.

[bettyellen]

43. Lol, I'm supposed to turn you on and not off now? LOL. Guess what- I don't give a single fuck

About impressing you. Calling people a "pussy" is a gendered slut because it denotes weakness and associates it with women.

And you are missing the context that these working women are not there to turn you on as well. The sooner you figure that shit out the less you will sound like Trump himself.

[Cakes488]

46. It's too bad you are not open to dialogue on this matter but then again I don't really give not

a molecule of a fuck because you've completely missed the point. You know what else you can do if you don't like someone and don't agree...you can just block them out...that's right block out the opposition. So please feel free.

Pussy is a gendered slut?

And I see you didn't answer this: In a perfect world nobody would make fun of anyone else ever. Kelly Conway should not be called ugly or a piece of shit or the last 10 minutes of prom because she's a "working woman" ...well we shouldn't do it because she's a woman...period. And on the same token we should not be making fun of trump and his motley crew. Don't you agree?

[bettyellen]

48. It's flying over your head that this is a progressive space that respects working women- more than

You do apparently. If you don't understand the difference between starting threads Here at DU to denigrate working women's appearances and the "rest of the world" the. You should not have signed the TOS here.


We are here to work and demand the respect we deserve. We are here because it is NOT a perfect world but we have created a space here where women rightly assume their gender is treated with respect- and not judged like beauty contestants. If you want to be a jerk and fee like anything goes- 90% of the net is your playground. but here is a site striving to respect women's contributions, and you agreed to treat others here with her respect.

[Cakes488]

51. Did you not read where I agreed that women period whether they are working or not should not be

rated on scales etc???? I said that was obvious. And neither should men. Those dating app's are horrible with the ratings and the swiping. Did you miss that I said that? What are you arguing with me about because we agree on that.

[bettyellen]

52. The nonsense where you equate shallow sexist stuff with "all other" criticism?

It's not there same. You keep acting like there is no predudice or context to this behavior- it's all the same as anyone criticizing anyone for anything they say or do. Bull shit. You are totally off base.

You might as well equate women with t shirts or wallpaper, like others here glibly have.

[DLevine]

45. FYI, until recently, the P word was almost always hidden by a jury.

DU has, or at least had, standards regarding the use of racist, sexist, homophobic slurs. I hope we can keep those standards here on this Democratic site.

[Cakes488]

50. I'm new here and looks like I joined right at the time of the unleashing

of the pussy (or should say P word).

[bettyellen]

58. Welcome! And yes, more or less this started because there was a legitimate need to discuss

trumps quote. Now suddenly people are using it as the slur. It's the net, and some people
Forget we are not Reddit or 4chan. We are striving to make this place less hostile to women. Due to skewed moderation for a long time this place was hostile to women, POC and many Dems- including the president. Those assholes are gone now, as are their shitty support for slurring people.

[bettyellen]

53. It's up to us to alert and hide when we are on juries.

At least we don't have the old mod system.

[Grey Lemercier]

90. I call Trump a bellend daily

[LanternWaste]

14. I have noticed a rather inordinate number of threads the past few days

I have noticed a rather inordinate number of threads the past few days commenting on the appearance of Trump's spokesperson as if it were relevant to the campaign, to policy or anything else of actual substance.

But I tell myself that particular and petulant irrelevancy is often the best an undisciplined mind has to offer, and tend to temporarily accept the lowered bar of discourse they offer...

[bettyellen]

63. Lowest bar of discourse. And harmful to normalize this crap. How are they not making the very

Direct connection between that and Trumps way of evaluating women? its the exact same mindset.

[obamanut2012]

18. 100% this -- I defended Palin, Carly, Condi, etal and will continue to

An insult like this against ANY woman normalizes it for ALL.

STOP IT, LIBERALS!

[bettyellen]

41. Me too. It was bad when it was cankles and Man Coulter....

My mind is blown people are not learning this lesson from Trump. These are working women- let's judge them by the work they do.

[madinmaryland]

19. I am cuddling with my pussy cat while eating an ugli fruit!

[ecstatic]

21. I called Trump ugly in one of my posts last night

She was a boss on that stage. A president.

Trump was a deflated, ugly loser on meds.

I usually don't go there. It's a term I reserve for the most vile men. I called Trump ugly because it made me furious that he constantly assesses the attractiveness of women when he's a fat, fugly POS.

[Cakes488]

23. He acts ugly...next time you can say that and you won't feel guilty....of course if you want to

rip him a new asshole I can help with that too.

[bettyellen]

65. Your words were really about performance and demeanor which is different. The OPs I saw went solely

After these professional women based entirely on their looks- and you know what? We've had decades of that crap, men have few experiences that compare. I don't know why people pretend it goes both ways with men. It really has not be close to the same.

[RonniePudding]

24. I think the wallpaper in my friends house is ugly

So I'm a sexist?

I'll give you pussy. I no longer use it. But people of both sexes can be ugly. The op's assertion is utterly ludicrous.

[bettyellen]

29. Is the wallpaper a woman just doing her job? LOL... It's hilarious how many want to

Reserve their right to be as much of an asshole as Trump is. Mind blowing.

[athena]

33. It's hard to believe that anyone would disagree with this OP.

Then again, some people seem to be here just to find some way to attack someone.

[bettyellen]

34. I edited to emphasize "the context" for those pretending there was none. Such bullshit to talk this

Way about women who are doing a job. Fuck that.

[athena]

37. Right. Calling a woman ugly

because one disagrees with her politics, or with the way she's doing her job, is very different from calling a certain type of wallpaper ugly.

If we were talking about any other minority (homosexuals, African Americans, Latinos), people would get this. Women are one of the last few remaining groups it's still OK to discriminate against, as long as one does it with a bit of subtlety.

[DLevine]

36. I agree with you. I would hope most DUers agree as well. nt

[bettyellen]

38. Many are holding on to the idea that it is just fine to rate them like you do wall paper,

Tee shirts or dating sites. Some people want to reserve their right to be assholes.

[DLevine]

39. Yes, I've noticed that. Good for you for pushing back. nt

[bettyellen]

40. I've noticed that suddenly a lot of people are using "pussy" as a slur again.

And fuck that. We're not going full JPR here.

[DLevine]

44. Yup, I've seen that. That shit used to be nuked. Not so much these days.

And yes, JPR is a misogynistic cesspool.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

47. BE....are you saying we are being influenced by Trump's gutter mentality? I am not.

[bettyellen]

49. I am saying I've seen a resurgence of both things here and it's like they really don't get that this

Shit is ugly and hostile to women here. There is pretty much no difference between starting a thread saying "the pundit women looks ugly" and what Donald Trump does every day. And "pussy"- just because it be arm a word in the news.... It is still a slut used the way I am seeing it used again lately. I'm sorry, I'm not having it.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

74. You go girl !! :)

[bettyellen]

76. Thanks! It's annoying to see this go over the heads of purported progressives, you know?

I saw what those Jackpine Assholes did by trying to shame people here into not being SJWs and for a while this place was very very hostile to feminists, as well as POC. I'm really over it. Women are giving us a victory and I'm not shutting up and sitting down while this place gets dragged into the gutter again.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

79. I admire that so much. And, it feels so good to have the right way in the core of

our being. Things are definitely looking up for us all !!

[JTFrog]

75. +1 nt

[Kennah]

61. Pussy willow allowed?

[bettyellen]

62. Why are so many people playing dumb about this?

I'd their "right" to behave disrespectfully to women that precious? I guess your reply is better than the one that compared women to wall paper....

[JTFrog]

72. Rape culture.

Normalizing this shit here is beyond obscene. Just saw another thread here making fun of a woman's breasts (or drooling depending on the poster). I don't care who she was, if there is something to criticize about her actions or behavior then comment on that, not her breasts.

[bettyellen]

73. I suspect the JPR regulars because they were always spewing this shit-

Because they had this theory that talking about social justice would some how stop you from talking about economic justice. How'd THAT work out for them?

[Laura PourMeADrink]

94. Can't believe you said that. My friend got in trouble with the bank

she worked at. They had a program (guess loaded with dirty words) that they ran against employee emails.

She finally figured it out...her Mom from upstate NY wrote her and said "Me and Aunt Sophie are going out to pick pussy willows."

[LexVegas]

77. I agree. And the playing dumb shit is so transparent. nt

[bettyellen]

80. Isn't it though?

[tblue37]

78. Thanks for making that point. nt

[duffyduff]

81. The term "pussy" is the same thing as the "c-word" and has no place here

or anyplace else that claims to be liberal or progressive.

However, one should always remember that sexism spans the entire political spectrum, especially with men.

I know having lived through the 1960s and early 1970s. "Left" men are not by any stretch of the imagination exempt from being sexist jerks. In many cases, they are even worse than the jerks on the right.

[bettyellen]

92. I think it's important to remind some that DU is not just any old place on the net. DU seeks to be

Inclusive and thoughtful where the vast bulk of the net is dominated by bullying and childish behavior and rampant sexism toward women. You'd think Trumps recent fuck ups would give some pause, but the lesson is flying over their heads.

[mercuryblues]

88. Thank you

I knew when the tapes came out that the P* word would get a lot of repeats here. If only because some could use the term without the backlash. IOW Trump gave them cover. I was not disappointed. This being a Democratic board I should have been able to feel comfortable viewing the thread titles. Seriously, what poster here would question what p* meant when discussing the Trump tapes? Why was it necessary to type out the whole word? Trump gave them cover and some ran with it.

At one point there were 5-6 thread titles on the latest page with the p* word in the title. That just reeks of hey ladies, come on in and join us. For me it said the person who posted the OP did not want a serious discussion on the tapes, they wanted their word porn.

And yes that leads the a backslide of commenting on women's appearance, then what next? ranking them on their fuckability?

So people just stop. Respect women enough where you think before you repeat the slurs others say. That is just giving the nod that it is ok for others to say it and worse.

Can we raise all ships instead of throwing stones at one to sink it.

[bettyellen]

91. Thank you MB. You said it much better than I.

[bettyellen]

93. Kick for Kellyanne who just got an OP about her face