I'm sorry, but Pence is winning this debate

[Recursion]

Kaine stopped the bleeding with that foreign policy speech but this is legit dangerous. Pence is fucking ruling this debate, and this is horrible.

[CentralMass]

1. Pretty much.

[wisteria]

88. Nah.

[brush]

89. You must be watching something else. Kaine keeps him on the defensive by demanding . . .

that Pence defend Trumps many outrageous statements, especially his lavish praise of Putin.

Pence can't do it and just pivots to something else.

I don't call that winning

[CentralMass]

96. I am a Democrat and like Kaine but it seemed to me

thst at he spent the early minutes of the debate interrupting Pence who was pretty calm. It happened numerous times and I belive it gave Pence the upper hand on one metric.

I'm not the type to psycophantically defend a candidate in a situation like this. I view these things analytically.

However on balance and on the critical issues that I care about I feel the Kaine won. Pence however had a strong performance. He was pretty unflappable. Not that I care. I sure as hell would never vote for him

[brush]

100. Pence is more polished than Trump but he can't defend his outrageous statements

The repugs are probably wishing Pence was at the top of the ticket because Trump is a disaster — undefendable.

And Kaine kept pressing Pence to defend the orange one — a good tactic.

[CentralMass]

104. Yes but t I don't think he really had to. He used his time well.

[Thrill]

2. The media was going to say he won

No matter what anyway

[Xipe Totec]

3. Give the devil his due. nt

[dhol82]

4. I know this is not a popular thought but

Pence looks calm and collected. He fucking looks presidential.
Not good

[wisteria]

47. Sure you are. I don't see that.

[ImaPolitico]

73. Not so with me.

Pence comes over as a whiney little baby. He still lies through his teeth. Just look at his face, the way he uses his eyes/eyebrows. Whiney little guy. No, Pence is not winning with me.
Kaine is more knowledgeable and has more questions and answers.

If people here think Pence is doing better perhaps it is because Pence was on a debate team in school. does that give his a lead? He sure isn't showing it.

[pintobean]

94. I agree

Kaine's constant interruptions make him look rude and desperate.

[NBachers]

112. Kind of like the Al Gore constant and frantic sighing and wheezing.

[synergie]

105. He fucking looks lobotomized as he lied his way through the debate.

[jcgoldie]

5. legit dangerous?

please.

[BumRushDaShow]

6. No.

[TCJ70]

7. Whoever told Kaine to be like Trump made a mistake...

...unless that's how he is.

[wisteria]

57. What? Kaine is making sense and on message. How the hell is that like Trump?

[TCJ70]

62. I'm talking more in terms of demeanor...

...not about who is making more sense.

[wisteria]

93. Still, consider that Cain's job is to defend Clinton.

He can't let Pence get away with lies.

[synergie]

106. His demeanour was not like Trump's. Did you watch either debate? What nonsense!

[enid602]

119. Kaine

Was Kaine one of the debaters? He acted like the moderator.

[Skoods]

8. No one cares about a vice presidential debate

Lloyd Bentsen beat Dan Quayle into a pulp in 1988 and they lost in a massive landslide.

[mcar]

9. Completely disagree

Pence his lying his ass off. Quijano is horrible. Kaine is aggressive and doing well. Pence hasn't said one substantive thing yet.

[wisteria]

64. Agree.

[adigal]

127. Pence is the whitest person in America and racist in his own oily, smarmy way

His denial of any racist police and "that Mexican thing" is all you need to know about him.

[NoGoodNamesLeft]

10. This is not a presidential debate...the goals are different

Tim Kaine's job is to counter the lies and bait Trump. He's doing his job.

And Pence just looks extremely angry with his scowling and he is so monotone that I tune him out after a few seconds.

[wisteria]

69. Agree.

[Cakes488]

11. They are each getting some shots in...but Pence can't defend Trumps words...he pivots very well

[phylny]

12. I think Kaine is kicking ass. n/t

[Cosmocat]

21. Agreed

Though that is lijely to earn him at best a tie from the media whores.

[OhZone]

56. Yup nt

[JDC]

86. I agree.

Kaine is pushing him around.

[femmocrat]

13. I think so too.

It is style over substance, but I bet a lot of people who never saw him before are surprised by his polish. Especially when compared to trump.

[MoonRiver]

14. Ridiculous!

What on earth are you basing that statement on? Kaine is handing Pence his ass regarding Rump's disastrous policies and despicable behaviors.

[EricMaundry]

15. Pretty much a push as far as I can see

Pence can't defend Trump. All he can do is shake his head.

[lillypaddle]

16. Disagree that Pence is winning

We must be watching different debates.

[truthisfreedom]

17. Here's a suggestion: Don't watch it. It's the freaking Veep debate. It's Tuesday at 8:53 (Central).

Do something constructive, then watch the news and some late night entertainment and go to bed happy!

[madaboutharry]

18. I don't think that.

[ArcticFox]

19. The debate is horribly moderated

Kaine is just too polite to handle this format. Pence is commandeering a majority of the time.

It's not looking like a win for Team Hillary.

[ImaPolitico]

90. On the contrary…..

I believe Tim Kaine is doing a masterful job. He is very knowledgeable and doesn't miss a trick with Pence.

Doesn't anyone here think when Gov. Pence speaks he comes over as a whiney little man. Take a look at Pence when he speaks his eyes/eyebrows raise which make him look like a sorrowful little man.

Pence is of christian faith so he said. He cannot be a good christian being the running mate of hateful lying trump.

Go Senator Kaine!

[Beaverhausen]

20. Yeah winning being a smug lying sack of shit

God I want to smash his face in

Editing to add don't forget Dan Quayle lost his debate bad but he still became our vice president

[DefenseLawyer]

22. Unless there's one memorable moment it won't matter in the least

Palin's "wink" or Stockdale's "Who am I and why am I here?" or the grand daddy of them all "You're no Jack Kennedy". Can anyone name another moment from any VP debate?

[sweetloukillbot]

32. Ferraro calling Bush on his mansplaining foreign policy. n/t

[NBachers]

115. Joe Biden adeptly and masterfully punking Paul "Thirsty" Ryan.

[DefenseLawyer]

118. Eh.

Yes, he clearly won the debate, but other than for political junkies, I don't think that was a particularly memorable debate moment. "That's a bunch of malarkey" is the closest to a memorable line in my opinion.

[greatauntoftriplets]

137. "Malarkey!"

[sinkingfeeling]

23. Bull.

[pnwmom]

24. We're apparently not listening to the same debate. I will concede

that Pence is doing a better job than Trump.

[woolldog]

25. Nope.

[BootinUp]

26. Naaaaah. Ptui!~

[Dem2]

27. Didn't I already see another thread of you saying this?

[ucrdem]

28. He rolls out RW talking points with compelling insincerity.

New bottle, old wine. :

[MFM008]

29. ???????

We watching the same debate????
Kaine is matching him hit for hit.

[Avalux]

30. Well, he's a lot better than Donald (not a high bar) but I don't think he's winning.

He's smooth and he's lying his ass off like a pro, but it isn't going to matter. Kaine keeps pounding Trump and I like that. The aftermath should be interesting.

[BigBearJohn]

31. Kaine is CREAMING Pence -- Pence looks like a bumbling fool

[Agschmid]

33. I don't agree.

He is lying his ass off, yes he seems "normal" but I don't think he gets off the hook for lying.

[TheKentuckian]

138. The record of the past 50 or so years of Republican politicians begs to differ

If they didn't get off the hook for lying they would have gone extinct years ago.

I personally agree with your metric but reality/the media/too many voters pretty much definitively do not.

[GumboYaYa]

34. Totally agree....Kaine is horrible

He has to stop interrupting...it is a horrid performance.

[ecstatic]

35. I disagree. Kaine is whipping his ass!

Pence looks the part but he's getting his ass kicked on substance.

[RonniePudding]

36. Meh this a meaningless event and if anything it's a draw

Lloyd Bentsen has the greatest line in debate history, VP or otherwise, and Dukakis got his ass handed to him. VP debates are meaningless.

[Johnny2X2X]

37. Kaine is doing fine

Not a blowout for either. Kaine is more than holding his own.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

38. Pence is fillibustering

If you call talking over other people winning

[Bobbie Jo]

39. Absolutely disagree

Pence is an incoherent dolt.

[WiffenPoof]

40. I'll Agree That...

...Pence is doing well, I would not say that he is winning the debate.

-P

[NobodyHere]

41. I'll give this to Kain so far

But that's only because it's pretty hard for Pence to defend everything Trump has said and done.

[Lint Head]

42. Pence looks like the homophobic robotic piece of shit that he is.

[Island Blue]

43. I think you're watching a different debate that I am.

True, Pence isn't a blabbering idiot like Trump was, but I think Tim Kaine is doing just fine.

[bigtree]

44. ffs

...tell us, please, where you agree with Pence.

[wisteria]

45. I disagree. Horrible??? What debate are you watching?

[Evergreen Emerald]

46. I guess it depends on your critera

he is lying..he is denying what we all know Trump has said--He has not laid out one plan. I don't know what your definition of winning is, but it is not lying, denying, bullshitting.

[DCBob]

48. Maybe.. but just slightly.

Kaine is holding his own. I think Pence benefits from simply not being a lunatic like Trump. It wont matter in the long run regardless.

[Blue Idaho]

49. Nope...

But I'm sure you think Bernie could do a better job...

[Arazi]

60. Uhm, Recursion was an ardent MOM supporter. Maybe stop fighting the primary?

[Blue Idaho]

95. Yeah - I was over the top... my apology...

[Osakagreg]

50. Kaine seems too exciteable

Pence seems calm and collected (although he is full of shit) while Kaine seems jumpy. I think Kaine was just counting on throwing all the Trump BS at Pence, thinking that would do the job.

But Pence is proving otherwise.

And Kaine just got drawn in more than necessary to the email crap.

[reflection]

51. Agreed, but I don't think it's a beatdown.

More of an edge to Pence. It wouldn't be as bad if Kaine would just stop interrupting so damned much.

[BainsBane]

52. I'm afraid I have to agree

Fortunately, it won't matter. He's probably helped his prospects for 2020 though.

[Recursion]

99. Yeah. Hoping so. (nt)

[BobbyDrake]

53. I agree, this is horrible.

A horrible, sad, obvious attempt to demoralize.

[Johnny2X2X]

54. Kaine is hitting Trump only

Pence handling the issues better.

Not sure how interior fly.

[bigtree]

58. what issue did Pence 'handle better?'

...please explain yourself.

[misterhighwasted]

55. Not judging by this ongoing HuffPo commentary. Kaine is calling Pence out on every lie

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_57f4238ce4b04c71d6f0aadb

Interesting play by play here. They are correct .

[herding cats]

67. I keep thinking the same.

Maybe it's a matter of if it's the message or the delivery a person is focusing on? Rather than the actual words?

[misterhighwasted]

71. Pence has a shitty history of being a shitty person. The Public knows that & Pence

..isn't getting a pass from people who know who he really is.

Indiana hates Pence.

[DemonGoddess]

125. Yes, we really do

Even my R family members don't like this asshat. Not a ONE of them voted for him as governor.

[herding cats]

59. You think he's driving his points home better than Kaine?

I'm not sure about that if that's your point, but he's very calm and on his message for the most part. It's very stump speech sounding to me, actually.

[OhZone]

61. Is this the RU underground all of a sudden? nt

[Cakes488]

80. That's what's so great about "us" the repub's often can't be objective...just blind defense

and if anyone in their ranks disagree well it's feeding time at the zoo. If Kaine completely tanked tonight (disclaimer which he's not)...we could admit it...but they never could. I mean they really believe Trashpot nailed it in the first debate.

[OhZone]

87. Is it objectivity or a desire to punish ourselves?

Sometimes I think it's the later.

[Osakagreg]

108. There is no reason to punish ourselves

I think people have noticed style, not substance.

[Bucky]

123. Calling someone a Republican just because they have to have a different opinion than you...

is pretty messed up.

I hate McCarthyism among Democrats more than I do among conservatives.

[OhZone]

141. No, it's not that exactly.

It's that I think it's more constructive to be positive and concentrate on all the good things that Kaine did and the horrible things that

And prepare, like Team HRC did, to react to the debate and further our cause, rather than go with the Corporate media's framing of winner/loser. It's just playing into GOP hands.

It's not entirely a binary thing.






It was a mixed bag, baby.

More CNN numbers: Who better defended their running mate? 58-35 Kaine

Who spent more time attacking? 76-14 Kaine
Who better understood the issues? 48-41 Kaine
Who was more likable? 53-37 Pence



And here is a great HRC ad from the debate -


https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1270833806306479&id=889307941125736&_rdr

[Bucky]

142. You could have said that. Instead you accused the poster of being Republican.

And all they did was perceive the debate wasn't going so well (a perception which is borne out by polls that gave the "win" to Pence by 48-42). That's not cool.

[Arazi]

63. Agreed. I know the mindset here will disagree..

[Satch59]

65. Kaine is doing great...

Pence is fumbling and if we're going on straight optics: Pence is scowling and Kaine looks calm and friendly and in control...

[blue cat]

66. This is the best debate ever!!!

I've been hooting and hollering in one room while my trump supporting dad is quiet in another. Here Kaine is mopping the floor with Pence.

[FUAC]

77. Disagree

It's not about content, but delivery. Pence is more controlled and smoother; kaine has a grasp of the content, but keeps interrupting; and the moderator is clueless. No one is making points in this debate. My take is that Pence is proving that he is better equipped than Trump to be on the top of the ticket, but kaine wins by default so long as he doesn't throw up on the moderator.

[MADem]

130. Are you serious? Controlled and smoother? He looked like a LYING PSYCHOPATH.

"Donald Trump never said that" when Donald Trump PLAINLY did?

Pence created a Democratic COMMERCIAL -- a "Look at these liars, and the lying lies they tell" advertisement.

There's no way that Pence proved anything save that he's a fucking moron who LIES even when he knows that he'll be caught out. That's not "top of the ticket" material -- that's a NITWIT.

[grossproffit]

79. OMG! To be a fly on the wall in your house. Really cute post.

[PatSeg]

68. Disagree

I think Kaine is doing an excellent job.

[bmstee01]

70. Pence is lying like crazy. Like crazy!

I would like for Kaine to look in the camera. But how do you debate someone that lies his ass off

[Hell Hath No Fury]

72. Kaine is coming off as too caffeinated --

and interrupting FAR too much. Pence is coming off as smooth and steady. Speaking strictly about the impression they are creating.

[Island Blue]

84. I would rather have a caffeinated VP

than a coked up POTUS.

[PAMod]

74. Gov Pence is NOT winning the debate.

As smug as he is, he is striking out when it comes to defending Trump.

[MichDem10]

75. Kaine making Pence squirm

Kaine has been masterful at needling Pence!! Pence's head shaking reminds me of Gore's sighs in 2000.

[Johnny2X2X]

76. Pence getting way more time to talk

Seems like almost double.

[TomJulie]

78. I Have to Agree, Recursion...

Fortunately, the VP debates are only a blimp and won't matter to undecideds.

[muntrv]

81. VP debates don't determine elections. If so, Dukakis would have won in

1988.

[3catwoman3]

82. I am glad there is only going to be one...

...of these.

[retrowire]

83. I knew this debate would have more substance.

Oy. It is intense. But, luckily, the presidential debates get more stage time than these.

[napi21]

85. I think Pence is doing an OK job, but all his interruptions and lies are going to bite him

in the Butt. Everything Kane accused Trump of saying was absolutely true and Pence calling them lies doesn't change the facts. I HOPE the media will recognize that.

[PeteSelman]

91. Yep. Whether he's gish galloping or not he's winning.

It's not a full on beat down but it is a win. He definitely edged Kaine out.

But no one really cares about the veep debate.

[MADem]

132. You don't win when you make shit up and lie, and it's provable.

What you do is disgrace yourself--and that is what Pence did.

Just like 'Nathan Thurm:'

[Pathwalker]

92. Maybe you should drink something STRONG.

Get loose. Smoke something, get mellow?

[Cognitive_Resonance]

97. Couldn't disagree more. Kaine is doing fine. nt

[Hoyt]

98. At the time OP was posted, and from a true undecided's view, I agree. But Kaine came on strong.

For the truly undecided's perspective, I think slight edge to Kaine based on latter half. For most biased DUers, it was a victory for Kaine.

[Greywing]

101. I think Kaine appealed strongly to women when he commented about trusting women to make

their own decision.

[Hoyt]

122. I agree. The pundits are saying he interrupted too much, and he probably did. But, he

highlighted differences in Prez candidates. Also, Lawrence O'Donald pointed out Kaine will look good on short clips and fact checks. I think Kaine interrupted too much and was like and grinned annoyingly at times, but he was right and I'm satisfied with his performance.

On to Sunday debates.

[Johnny2X2X]

102. Kaine won the second half

Kaine won overall. I think it will be called a draw though.

[Warren DeMontague]

103. I think Kaine did great.

The bottom line is, both these dudes are a bit boring, i suspect the viewers at home tuned out a while ago.

[Charlotte Little]

107. Huh?

Pence lied, deflected, didn't answer questions and had about as much charm as a donkey's ass...

[DawgHouse]

109. Kaine did great and won, IMO.

[budkin]

110. Too bad no VP debate has EVER mattered

And pretty much no one is even watching this one.

[wisteria]

111. Kaine did fine. Pence tried to go rouge, thinking about his own future with the

Republican Party.

[emulatorloo]

113. I'm sorry, Pence won't survive a fact check.

[ooky]

114. Pence is ruling the debate??

Care to say how? I didn't see either candidate ruling. Kaine did fine. I don't think this debate will matter unless the M$M falsely pushes one over the other. Trump supporters will claim Pence won and Hillary's supporters will claim Kaine won.

[many a good man]

116. Reagan quote was brutal

Calling Trump the maniac Reagan was referring to has to be the most insulting thing said in a debate since forever.

[SunSeeker]

124. When you say "insulting" you suggest it was not true.

Trump would indeed be a fool and a maniac with nuclear weapons if elected. Do you disagree?

[adigal]

128. I gasped at this and I'm surprised it got no mention after

I thought it was accurate.

[Gothmog]

117. I disagree

Kaine forced Pence to throw Trump under the bus and that will hurt the ticket. Pence was running for the 2020 nomination and did not defend Trump

[BlueInPhilly]

120. Please delete this thread

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

121. Ha Ha ! It went well.

The fact is there was not and is not a way for Pence to defend that which is indefensible. At the end Kaine called it out in a number -six times and all six times Pence balked.

Pence was in effect speaking to Trump's fan base and Kaine was speaking to the general public in viewing and those that catch up afterwords.

And that is just what better together is.
The republicans lost big time.
Pence was operating within strict perimeters and I got a sense that old cat had hold of his tongue ! Some will surely believe he was smart for not taking the bait. I'll hand Pence this much- surely he knows it is impossible to defend the indefensible.

Trump's tweets were comical ,he just had to insert himself into it ! I would say pitiful but the fact is Trump is joke. Hillary treeted in with a thanks to Kaine for speaking up about womans right to choose.

[pampango]

126. Perhaps on style points but the goal was to help Hillary and weaken Trump. On that level Kaine won.

Kaine's goal was not to weaken Pence or to 'win' the debate on style points. His goal was to point out Hillary's strengths and Trump's weaknesses. On that level he did an excellent job while Pence had trouble all night defending Trump.

All he could do is say "Trump never said that" which of course is a lie and can easily be shown to be that. That won't affect Trump's base who will support him whether he lies consistently or not, but may affect the undecided voters and unmotivated voters who are the focus of debates like this.

[BlueMTexpat]

129. OK - I have not yet watched

the full debate and am watching right now on a split screen version. IMO, Kaine has owned Pence so far. Pence has responded with lies and record distortions. I find Pence to be phony to the nth degree.

Yes, he cultivates "demeanor" so far and he does that well. But he is SOOOO phony. His words either ignore what Trump himself actually has said or they recast them in a way that is sheer fantasy.

As for interruptions, BOTH are interrupting. But Kaine is actually speaking the truth and is getting back to the REAL Trump. Pence is simply not baited as easily as Trump is - and therein lies the difference, IMO.

Now, back to the watch.

[MADem]

131. I'm sorry (no, I am not) -- but you are DEAD wrong.

Pence created a Democratic campaign ad for the ages--he lied about shit that can be easily shown to be lies.

Lies, and the lying liars that tell them....it's not just an Al Franken book title anymore.

[Joe941]

133. Lets quit concentrading on the VP debate because...

VP debates mean very little. Lets concentrate on the presidential debate where trump lost!

[brooklynite]

134. Why was it "dangerous"?

This is meaningless.

[Overseas]

135. Pence only won on being calm. He lied all the way. Kaine kept hitting w truth.

Yes, I'm sad that climate change wasn't discussed-- very big difference.

And LGBT rights.

But Kaine kept at the tax returns, volatility of Trump temperament, merits of HRC life in public service. Putin love and debt to China.

[LAS14]

136. It depends on whether or not you were paying attention to what was said.

I found myself NOT paying attention. I was sort of mesmerized by the sound of Pence's steady, LENGTHY spiel. I remembered that Pence used to be a talk show host. Less so after Kaine cut back on interrupting. But it really took the PBS talking heads to point out to me that Pence lost big on content. He avoided answering most questions and didn't counter Kaine's litany of Trump failures. I think Kaine's sparer, sharper delivery was a good counter to Pence's drone. The PBS folks agreed with me. (Or, I guess, I agreed with them.) Kaine won if you listened to what he said.

[Joe941]

139. Kaine won on content because...

the truth in on Kaine's side. That was never in doubt. Pence played the only hand he had pretty well - lies. But people will see through the lies easily.

[Joe941]

140. There is a story trending that trump is upset...

because pence did better than he did - basically showed him up by performing well.