Why I cannot vote for either Trump or Clinton.

[RoccoR5955]

Personally, I cannot vote for either the Democratic candidate, or the Republican candidate this time around.
And I have my reasons.
As far as Trump is concerned, I met him a while back. It was when AOL had their first Windows software and wanted to show it off. They had a big party at the Hard Rock Cafe in NYC (and other cities). I am waiting on line to get in, and who is standing in front of me but the Donald. So, I chatted it up with him, as if he was just another person, which I normally do, and eh, he seems okay for a while. That changed when we got inside. He was impressed with all the free food, especially the large shrimps. Oh, and while inside, he was coming on to just about every female there, some in person, but mostly online. Most of his lines were like, "Do you know that I am a multi-millionaire?" and "Wanna date a millionaire." All about his filthy money, how immature. Now this guy is running for president. I cannot vote for someone like that.
As far as Clinton is concerned, it goes to her statement at the funeral of Nancy Reagan. As far as I'm concerned, Clinton tried to change history when she said that Nancy and Ronnie helped end the AIDS epidemic. This is a bald faced lie. Early on in the AIDS epidemic, the Reagan administration called AIDS, "a gay cancer," and gave it no money for early research. They did nothing until many thousands of people lost their lives to this syndrome. My younger brother was one of them. I saw him waste away and die. This because there was no early research into life saving drugs, which could have prolonged his life, and abated his suffering. Had the Reagans done something early on, my brother might be alive today. Then I hear the big lie from Clinton. I could never vote for someone who, even if in error, did not see that the Reagans did nothing, and merely prolonged the suffering and contributed to the deaths of thousands with their inaction.
No, I cannot forgive Clinton. You cannot unring the bell. You cannot put the toothpaste back in the tube. She made a statement, that was totally wrong, failed to see the evil doings of the Reagans.
Sorry, but in Clinton's case, blood is thicker than politics.

Even though I cannot vote for either presidential candidate, I shall work for the Democratic candidates lower on the ticket. Here in the NY-19, we have a primary for the Congressional seat that is up. Zephyr Teachout is who I am supporting. She ran on a reform platform in the primary against Andrew Cuomo, and garnered 35% of the vote. Not bad for an unknown. Her opponent, is not too bad, but is very inexperienced, and not known at all. At any rate he is much better on issues than are the Republican candidates in the primary. Whoever wins the Democratic primary, will get my full support. I hope it's Teachout.

I guess that this is where my energy is going to this election season. I just cannot vote for either candidate for president this time.
If this gets me banned from this place, so be it. I just want to be honest about why I cannot vote for EITHER candidate.

[Cali_Democrat]

1. I wouldn't have been able to vote for Bernie

Thankfully he won't be on the ballot in November.

[RoccoR5955]

3. You say that but you state no reasons.

That says a lot to me.

[NWCorona]

6. I think it's apparent by now.

[grossproffit]

17. What is apparent?

[Cali_Democrat]

7. Oh...there are plenty of reasons I wouldn't have been able to support him

....the main one being his call to have the superdelegates overturn the will of the people.

[insta8er]

12. So you didn't vote for Obama then either? update with numbers from 2008

2008

Candidate Barack Obama Hillary Clinton
Home state Illinois New York
Delegate count 2,285½ 1,973
Popular vote 17,584,692 17,857,501*[1]
Percentage 47.3% 48.0%

[Cali_Democrat]

15. Obama won a majority of pledged delegates

Bernie is getting spanked when it comes to pledged delegates.

[insta8er]

20. But he didn't win the popular vote, "the will of the people."

[Cali_Democrat]

26. Obama wasn't on the ballot in Michigan

Obama won the popular vote:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/democratic_vote_count.html

[insta8er]

29. I guess we have 2 different numbers...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2008

[Cali_Democrat]

30. You're counting Michigan where he wasn't even on the ballot

Thanks for playing...

[democrattotheend]

41. Yes, he did, by any reasonable measure

Hillary's "I won the popular vote" argument was based on counting the votes from Michigan and excluding the votes from caucus states that did not release raw vote totals (rather than estimating them, which is easy to do).

[Zynx]

56. The result in 2008 was ambiguous beceause of Michigan and the caucuses.

This result wasn't ambiguous. Also, in 2008 the polling was consistent in having Obama as the narrowly preferred choice. The polling this time has been clear for Hillary. Her lead is much much bigger than Obama's was.

[itsrobert]

27. +1

Bernie lost. Why would anyone accept the superdelegate to overturn the will of the voters?

[dsc]

19. Please link to Obama calling for anything like that

he won the most pledged delegates, the popular vote was basically tied (he won under one count, she another).

[RoccoR5955]

16. I am not going to get into an argument about that.

But you should remember that we should have proportionate representation. Even with super delegates.
My opinion is that a super delegate should look at the district that s/he comes from and vote in accordance with the majority in that district, which may not necessarily be the entire state. It certainly would make for a more interesting convention, since Bernie lost a lot of those districts by a small margin. For example, here in NY, Bernie took a large majority of the counties outside of NYC and the suburbs. In my county, Bernie won 65% of the vote. I would hope that any super delegate in this district would vote, as you say, with the will of the people IN THE DISTRICT, and vote for Bernie in the convention.
And I do not mean this as an argument, merely pointing out my thought out opinion.

[pnwmom]

59. 538 showed that Hillary would have won the large majority of delegates

even if the super delegates had voted proportionately.

Bernie's biggest strength was in low-minority states that held caucuses. And in both the states that held caucuses and primaries (Washington and Nebraska -- the voters approved the primaries but the local party insisted on choosing delegates at caucuses), the caucuses went for Bernie and the far more inclusive primaries went for Hillary.

[NJCher]

105. link?

I'd like to read that firsthand.



Cher

[pnwmom]

106. Here's one.

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-system-isnt-rigged-against-sanders/

In fact, if all states held primaries open to independents — instead of closed primaries, or caucuses of any kind — Clinton might have a larger lead in elected delegates than she does now. The model indicates that Clinton would have a lead of 294 elected delegates, compared with the 272 she holds now. That’s not a huge difference, but it means that Clinton has been hurt at least as much by caucuses as Sanders has been hurt by closed primaries.

What would happen if the primary system conformed to each candidate’s best-case scenario? (All closed primaries for Clinton and all caucuses open to independent voters for Sanders.) If every state held a closed primary, Clinton would beat Sanders by 19 percentage points and have a 654 elected delegate advantage, we estimate. If, however, each state held an open caucus, Sanders would beat Clinton by 22 percentage points nationwide and have a 496 elected delegate lead. Of course, neither of those scenarios would happen.

Realistically, if you throw everything together, the math suggests that Sanders doesn’t have much to complain about. If the Democratic nomination were open to as many Democrats as possible — through closed primaries — Clinton would be dominating Sanders. And if the nomination were open to as many voters as possible — through open primaries — she’d still be winning.

[NJCher]

130. thanks

I read it a couple times, but still not sure that one can extrapolate, given the number of variables.

Still, if this writer were in my classes, I'd give him an A for original thesis statement.


Cher

[DJ13]

62. the main one being his call to have the superdelegates overturn the will of the people.

You mean like getting 400+ of them to support you even before the first primary voted?

[Logical]

73. Stupid. But I assume you know it is stupid. nt

[RazBerryBeret]

76. you forgot to say

"neener, neener, neener".....

[Marr]

107. Good. You can't legitimately complain about Bernie or Bust sentiment then.

Keep that in mind.

[leftofcool]

2. Okie dokie. Maybe we will see you after Hillary wins in November.

[RoccoR5955]

9. I met Jill Stein.

She believes that the Greens can build the party from the top down. This is not possible. She needs support from Congress and Senate, which she has none. Besides, she has no chance of winning the election.

[NWCorona]

10. Then there's slim pickings unfortunately.

[brush]

50. We only hear about the Greens every 4 years in the presidential cycle

I always felt that it was a bit of hubris to always seem to jump out and run for the highest office in the land without having built a nationwide foundation of running for and winning local, statewide and lower national offices.

Now that I know Stein thinks they can build the Green party from the top down, I understand why we never hear of them but every four years, and I get now that their thinking is not a bit of hubris, but a heaping pile of it.

[dreamnightwind]

57. The Greens tried for a long time to build from the bottom up

and didn't get far at all.

I've never thought they had good organizing skills, plus it's difficult to organize without large sums of money, something we have to get better at whether we're with the Greens or any other populist candidate or movement.

But the top-down efforts, IMHO, are far more valuable than people like to admit. I submit the Sanders campaign as an example. Without Bernie carrying the torch for the populist left, and doing so while running for the country's top spot, we'd be nowhere right now. A focused and popular leader who has the energy and determination to drive a movement is a great way to mobilize a movement. Now that movement is attempting to elect better down-ballot candidates and to sustain itself as something that will outlive Bernie's campaign (I thin they will succeed in doing so).

Jill Stein has that right (valuing top-down), though I've never thought she is such a person herself. I may end up voting for her this year, as I did in 2012, but it would be in the spirit of voting for an alternative rather than voting for a person I think can lead us into a better future (that would be Bernie, who I may end up writing in, time will tell).

[w4rma]

151. Third parties are just a black hole to pour resources in that would be better used in the primaries.

Forget them. I am a yellow dog Democrat, but I might vote for the Libertarian presidential nominee, just to help the Libertarian Party get their federal matching funds and make it easier for them to split the right-wing vote in future elections.

I'm voting Democrats down ticket, though.

[zappaman]

5. Ok

[onenote]

8. I get that you think that your vote doesn't matter because Clinton will win NY

But if you were in a swing state and wouldn't do the most basic, effective thing that can be done to defeat Trump -- namely vote for the Democratic nominee -- I would consider you a menace to society.

[choie]

112. and so?

[qdouble]

11. Heaven forbid someone say something nice about a former First Lady right after her death.

I mean, her statement was inaccurate of course, but to go on about it being a bald faced lie... I'm not sure why you'd think she'd intentionally want to stick a foot in her mouth or as if she wanted to intentionally piss people off... but then again, judging by JPR there are numerous people here who think Hillary is 100% evil. So it is what it is.

At the end of the day, you can vote or not vote...that's your choice. However, only one of two people will become president. Clinton is substantially better than Trump.

[pnwmom]

60. I agree. It wasn't a lie. It was a simple mistake at a funeral. I think Hillary

meant to talk about Nancy's support for Alzheimer's research, which was significant.

[SheilaT]

85. I don't think it was a simple mistake.

On the other hand, if Hillary confused AIDS with Alzheimer's, what does THAT say about her mental acuity?

And if I recall correctly, the Reagans did nothing to support Alzheimer's research either, not until Ronnie was diagnosed himself. THEN they finally cared.

So the Reagans are, in the end, miserable hypocrites, and Hillary has a lot of trouble distinguishing between two very different diseases, not to mention a totally false memory about what the Reagans did or said.

[RoccoR5955]

100. If she meant to speak about Alzheimer's

than why the fuck didn't she say Alzheimer's? Perhaps she is showing early signs?

At any rate, it's too late for her. You cannot unring the bell.

[treestar]

160. I agree, that particular reason is quite unbelievable

Going on about the oligarchy at least makes it about some perceived real issue.

[YouDig]

13. So, you're going to sit by and let Trump win because Hillary said something dumb at a funeral?

Do you understand what is at stake here?

[RoccoR5955]

18. Do YOU understand that blood is thicker than politics?

[YouDig]

23. I have no idea what that means.

[pnwmom]

61. I'm very sorry about your brother. But Hillary had nothing to do with his death.

The Reagans were wrong to oppose more funding for AIDS research, but that wasn't Hillary's fault. She just made a mistake at Nancy's funeral, for which she apologized.

[TheCowsCameHome]

32. Sanders supporters aren't relevant or needed,

or did you forget that already?

[MFM008]

14. Ok

i get it. But, Nancy R did try to help more after he died. Sure it was late, to late for many.
I dont argue any more about this, you either will or you wont.
Personally I will do everything to stop rump including my vote.

[Blue_Tires]

21. And you're telling us this because.....?

[RoccoR5955]

25. If you read the OP, you would know. n/t

[Blue_Tires]

31. I read your goddamned OP

I know *WHY* you're abstaining, I just don't know why you think we'd care? Or is this one of those things where you're trying to justify it to yourself?

[RoccoR5955]

47. Free speech then.

Ok. I hope that that is a "goddamned" good enough reason for you!

[stevil]

82. Thought free speech was dead here according to some

I guess the people who made that claim did not speak for you? Sour grapes are in season.

[Blue_Tires]

129. And I'm exercising "free speech" in my response

So.. Do you want a medal? Some kind of award?

[1monster]

166. It's strange, but as the primaries are ending and DU is apparently going

into a new phase, I'm using the "ignore" list a lot the last couple of days.

Welcome to mine. You are allowed free speech. You can think whatever you want and even express what you think.

Where I draw the line is the hateful attitude that seems to abound on DU these days. I had a very dear friend die from AIDS during the Reagan years. He had two years from the diagnosis till he died... A few months after trials for AZT were completed. It was helping those were had been lucky enough to get in on the trials, but he couldn't get AZT for love or money. Reagan not only didn't do anything to stem the spread of AIDS, he actively discouraged research to find treatments, prevention, and cures for it. It was too too easy to stigmatize it as a punishment from God for being gay.

So I can understand his distaste for Hillary's praise for Nancy Reagan. For him it was a breaking point.

I believe that being a Democrat means that I can vote my conscience without guilt. If being a Democrat has come to mean that I have to walk in lock step with whatever person has clawed his or her way to the top of the party organization, then I might as well be a Republican. AND I AM NO REPUBLICAN.

I'm not telling you how I'm voting, and I certainly don't owe you or anyone an explanation as to why I am voting the way I am. The OP felt the need to explain his feelings and actions to people he cared about. And you answered with scorn and vitriol. Way to win hearts and minds for the coming General Election. That attitude (by many on this board) has probably done more to cement those feeling against Hillary than you realize.

[840high]

66. I care.

[TheCowsCameHome]

33. It's DU, and he's free to post.

How 'bout that?

Good enough for ya?

[CorkySt.Clair]

22. Thanks for the update.

[frazzled]

24. In before the bell

As the Church Lady always said,

[Squinch]

28. I like cheese.

[Ohioblue22]

34. Sounds like someone resting comfortably on their white privilege

[Yavin4]

35. ^^This^^

Willing to let other people drown.

[Ohioblue22]

38. And shot. Nt

[TheCowsCameHome]

36. What does that mean?

[HarmonyRockets]

67. You don't know what white privilege means?

Or you don't know how it relates to being ambivalent towards whether Trump or Clinton wins the White House?

[TheCowsCameHome]

79. Um, no. That's why I asked.

Do you have an answer?

[stevil]

83. Don't know what it means?

LOL

[TheCowsCameHome]

91. Lol yourself.

Care to offer an actual answer, or just post stupid comments?

[stevil]

114. Cows came home alright

And you complain about stupid comments?

[TheCowsCameHome]

124. Still no answer, I see.

Evidently you got nothin' to offer.

[HarmonyRockets]

88. Found this definition off the internet:

White privilege is a term for societal privileges that benefit people identified as white in Western countries, beyond what is commonly experienced by non-white people under the same social, political, or economic circumstances.

[TheCowsCameHome]

94. Thank you

I've never heard or seen the expression before.

[HarmonyRockets]

96. Wikipedia goes on to say:

According to Peggy McIntosh, whites in Western societies enjoy advantages that non-whites do not experience, as "an invisible package of unearned assets". White privilege denotes both obvious and less obvious passive advantages that white people may not recognize they have, which distinguishes it from overt bias or prejudice. These include cultural affirmations of one's own worth; presumed greater social status; and freedom to move, buy, work, play, and speak freely. The effects can be seen in professional, educational, and personal contexts. The concept of white privilege also implies the right to assume the universality of one's own experiences, marking others as different or exceptional while perceiving oneself as normal.

You may also want to Google the term male privilege. In my opinion they are two terms all progressives should know.

Edit: I'll just paste it here.

Peggy McIntosh, a feminist literary scholar, has discussed male privilege with respect to white privilege, stating that "the denial of men's over-privileged state takes many forms". Privilege is not a result of a concerted effort to oppress those of the opposite gender, however, the inherent benefits that males gain from the systemic bias put women at an innate disadvantage. Male privilege may be viewed as an invisible package filled with unearned privileges that are constantly at work, but which are unspoken and most people remain oblivious to. The benefits of this unspoken privilege are often described as special provisions, tools, relationships, or various other opportunities. In fact this privilege may actually negatively affect men's development as human beings, and few men question society’s constructs or that the existing structure of advantages may be challenged or changed. S

[GulfCoast66]

113. I am assuming you have no animus

And truly do not know.

I have white privelage. I am an upper middle classs white male. If Trump wins I will be effected if the economy tanks as a whole. But perhaps the only direct effect it will have on me is embarrassment when I travel to Europe.(upper middle class, remember).

But take Trumps election effect on my fellow Americans:

Undocumented- what is there to say, The Wall

LGBT- Supreme Court appointees who will overturn gay marriage

Women - see previous post but think Roe v. Wade.

The working poor- his claim we need to lower the minimum wage

And it goes on and on. So it would be easy for me to throw a pity party if my candidate loses and empower Trump to be elected. I do not have much skin in the game.

Now you know what white privelage is from a guy who has benefited from it and have come to realize that.

But I realize that millions of my fellow Americans are all in with this elections.

And that is why I get very irate with supposed liberals who will enable trump to be elected.

So, if you refuse to vote for the Democratic nominee, then I am happy I will not be reading your posts here after tomorrow.

[Dem2]

43. No fucking shit!

Wow! What a disgusting self serving o/p.

[tallahasseedem]

51. +100

Perfection!

[RoccoR5955]

99. What makes you say that?

Because I am not voting for one stinking office?
If you read my post, you would know that I am voting down ticket, and plan to support other races.

[stevenleser]

140. If you understand what white privilege is, it's obvious what makes them say that. nt

[Deny and Shred]

122. Yeah better to vote for someone who

gets $250,000 for a half hour speech to the richest people on the planet. No privlige there.

[stevenleser]

141. FDR had a ton of money too. That means nothing. nt

[mcar]

37. Getting this in under the wire?

[One of the 99]

39. To quote Robert Reich

I can’t criticize anyone for voting their conscience, of course. But your conscience should know that a decision not to vote for Hillary, should she become the Democratic nominee, is a de facto decision to help Donald Trump.

http://new.www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-reich/advice-for-divided-democrats_b_10162184.html

So let me thank you now for helping Donald Trump. Thank you for callously and selfishly turning a blind eye to the harm that Trump will do to minorities, woman and the poor. Thank you for helping to solidify Citizen's United and gutting of the Voting Right's act for a generation. And all over one misstatement at a funeral. Seems petty.

But you're a white guy who won't suffer any adverse consequences from a Trump presidency so you can afford to self-righteously sit on your high horse while the rest of us have to deal with the damage that you're enabling.

[AntiBank]

92. "white guys" will suffer too under Trump, most all people will suffer

[One of the 99]

110. Some will but

not as much as women, minorities and the poor will.

[choie]

115. That's right - all of us who will not vote for Clinton

are misogynist, racist and white privilege-loving - no matter our color, gender or sex....You got us!

[One of the 99]

116. Never said that.

Very intellectually dishonest of you.

[choie]

120. You are the one saying things

that are intellectually dishonest. I've damn sick and tired of hearing the cries of "white privilege" and "sexism" - it's the only way you think you can win the argument because you're candidate is so awful and divisive.

[One of the 99]

125. Again never said

either "white privilege" or "sexism". At least I don't have to put words in someone's mouth to try to win an argument.

[saidsimplesimon]

40. Rocco, I wear my bans as an honor.

As a woman, the "Scarlet Letter" is not a call of support for "The Red Badge of Courage". Surely, these books have been banned by our Texas "home schooling" fanatics? Thus my reference is mute? (If you have not read the books, it is your loss.)

[Dem2]

42. Wow.

Just wow.

You gave the Nazi a chance until he showed his womanizing, but hate Clinton because of a misstatement?

[kcdoug1]

44. After Bills betrayal on don't ask don't tell, and the disaster that was Hillary care

I will NEVER trust or vote for a Clinton. Done with the DNC.

[pnwmom]

48. Hillary-care was a more progressive plan than the ACA, but unfortunately

there wasn't enough support for it in congress.

And Don't Ask Don't Tell was -- at that time -- an advance for LGBT rights in the military, because till that point the practice was to ask whenever there was a suspicion, and immediately discharge. In 1982 Ronald Reagan issued a directive saying that homosexuality was incompatible with military service, and ordering the discharge of homosexual and bisexual service members.

Bill Clinton overturned that rule and set up a new rule: "Don't Ask, Don't tell."

Years later, President Obama was right to end DADT -- but when Bill Clinton first ordered it, it was a step forward on the path to full equality.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/dont-ask-dont-tell-timeline/

http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-01-22/how-hillarycare-did-and-didn-t-lead-to-obamacare

Clinton's plan, by contrast, was more ambitious in its scope and would have been more disruptive for the vast majority of Americans who receive insurance coverage through an employer or through Medicare or Medicaid, the government programs for the elderly and disabled and for the poor. The sprawling proposal sought to achieve universal health coverage by offering all Americans a standard minimum-benefits package and imposing limits on out-of-pocket expenses, along with a broad requirement that employers provide insurance.

“It did try to impose a fundamentally new system,” Jost said, arguing that many people would have seen their coverage—or the source of it—change.

“For all the criticism that the ACA has caused disruption, it’s remarkably incremental compared to what the Clinton administration proposed back in the 1990s,” said Larry Levitt, a health policy expert with the Kaiser Family Foundation who worked in the Clinton administration and helped develop the proposal. “The ACA leaves the current private insurance system largely unchanged for the majority of people who get coverage through their employers. The Clinton Health Security Act would have required most people to switch their health insurance coverage to new health insurance alliances, and it imposed caps on how fast premiums could rise.”

[TwilightZone]

52. You're criticizing Hillary Clinton for trying to get universal healthcare passed?

[redstateblues]

97. You were never voting Democratic anyway. We'll win without you

[pnwmom]

45. Hillary has apologized for her mistake.

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2016/03/13/3759622/clinton-aids-nancy-reagan/

But late Saturday, Clinton published an expanded response clarifying not only how mistaken she was, but lifting up the reality of what actually transpired in the 80s. “To be clear, the Reagans did not start a national conversation about HIV and AIDS,” she wrote. “That distinction belongs to generations of brave lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people, along with straight allies, who started not just a conversation but a movement that continues to this day.”

She highlighted the grassroots efforts of groups who raised awareness about the epidemic, who “reminded us again and again, Silence = Death,” and also praised “ the unsung heroes who fought on the front lines of the crisis, from hospital wards and bedsides, some with their last breath.”

After recapping her own commitment to fighting AIDS both at home and abroad, Clinton outlined several specific plans for continuing that fight:

*Continue to increase HIV and AIDS research and invest in the promising innovations that research is producing.
*Expand access to PrEP, including for at-risk populations.
*Call on Republican governors to put people’s health and well-being ahead of politics and extend *Medicaid, which would provide health care to those with HIV and AIDS.
*Call on states to reform outdated and stigmatizing HIV criminalization laws.
*Increase global funding for HIV and AIDS prevention and treatment.
*Cap out-of-pocket expenses and drug costs — and hold companies like Turing and Valeant accountable when they attempt to gouge patients by jacking up the price of lifesaving medications.

What started Friday as a flub turned into what may be the most detailed platform on fighting HIV/AIDS that any presidential candidate has ever issued. It may not fully assuage those put off by her comments, but it does create a new visibility around the ongoing work of the HIV advocacy movement. Veteran AIDS activist Peter Staley admitted on Facebook that the response does help ease the pain of the original remarks, “but I want to keep making lemonade out of this.”

[RoccoR5955]

101. Too late. You cannot unring the bell. n/t

[ismnotwasm]

46. I lost every fucking friend I had as a teenager to AIDS

I lived in the streets as a kid---before anybody knew what HIV was. I remember the first time I saw Kaposi's Sarcoma all over a body, a beautiful young man. He was hideous. I remember friend after friend dying, and I remember that motherfucker Reagan and his inaction.

To compare Hillary Clinton to that horror makes zero sense to me, but you go on with your bad self. Don't vote, keep telling yourself whatever it is you need to tell yourself that you are doing the right thing. Your vote, your business.

I'll stick with and listen to with the GBLT activists who have her back.

http://www.hrc.org/blog/hrc-statement-on-hillary-clintons-meeting-today-with-hiv-and-aids-activists

[sheshe2]

55. ...

[kstewart33]

49. Working for down ballot candidates seems like a good move for you.

You're working for a good cause.

[LoverOfLiberty]

53. Yawn

who cares?

[PJMcK]

54. Please read this, RoccoR5955

I'm sorry to hear the story about your brother's passing in those early days of the AIDS epidemic. Those were dark times and we all lost loved ones.

You've articulated your electoral reasons very well and I encourage you to support an all-Democratic ticket while enforcing your principals.

Some of the up-thread comments are vitriolic and I hope you'll let them slide. You're clearly a person with principals.

[Jakes Progress]

58. What though does it say

when your principles cause death and pain for many? Do you get to congratulate yourself on how noble you are to hold to your principles when by doing so, you aid hatred and pain? When Trump starts a war with (fill in the blank) just because he has a whim to do so or can make a couple of million because of the war, how does one justify holding to principles? Sounds a little selfish to me.

[RoccoR5955]

103. Damn. Didn't I say I am not voting for Trump?

Why do you say that I am? I am voting for nobody.
That does not mean, especially here in NY that Trump is going to win because of my one vote for NOBODY!
Sheesh!

[choie]

117. Hey Rocco...

it's like banging your head against the wall. They just won't get it...

[Jakes Progress]

132. Hey yourself.

Banging your head against the wall is what you do when you give up and go home and sulk.

Someone doesn't get it, but it's not me.

[choie]

137. Dream on

[Jakes Progress]

139. You go ahead and dream away. I've got work to do.

Sorry your feeling are all hurt. But it's not about you. I just think you would feel better about yourself if you learned how politics works and then put that knowledge to some higher purpose than sulking.

[choie]

142. You don't know anything about me..

as with many Clinton supporters, your words are arrogant and condescending and reveal a great deal about you.

[Jakes Progress]

149. Only by what you write.

As with many Bernie supporters, you claim supernatural skills for yourself that you say others can't have. Hence you tell me that I know nothing about you, but you know a "great deal" about me.

Shallow, sloppy thinking.

This is a site for politics. I suggested that you learn how that works because your posts indicated that you are not well informed in that area. I chose to think you are not well informed because your posts indicate that or that you are not well intentioned. I believe you have very good intentions. Most of those (other than the bros) who supported Sanders have very good intentions, wanting the best of our country and government. Most of those with the good intentions will sigh, look at the election clearly, and vote for Clinton. Some will take their bruised feelings and pout out the election. Those people are poorly informed if they truly want progressive progress in this country.

How is my saying that we should defeat trump and elect as many Democrats as possible a sign of arrogance?

[Jakes Progress]

131. Sheesh!

If your one vote doesn't matter, why would you think that anyone should vote?

The "you" in my reply was generic. But not voting for Hillary is the same as voting for trump. I live in Texas. Why should I vote for Hillary or Bernie or any Democrat? Every vote that the Democratic nominee doesn't get is encouragement for the slimy portion of the electorate that trump is calling forth into the light.

Your reasoning in this is highly flawed.

If you want Bernie's ideas more than you want the shiny rock star, then your best bet is to not only vote for Hillary, but get out the vote for her in a big way. Show the bigots and hate-mongers that someone like trump doesn't belong in our system and that people who vote for him are losers. Use that giant Democratic win to use and sweep in as many Democrats as possible. Then, in the mid-terms, primary any of those blue dogs who still want the go third way. Scare the party into going left the same way the tea party scared theirs into going right. You can't do that with slim margins and small victories.

Making the kind of change that we want is harder than looking for a savior who will magically make it happen. Show me when that has ever happened in American government. I want everything that Bernie wants and more. (Except for a free pass for gun manufacturers) But I've been through my starry-eyed gaga stage when I thought that all I had to do is pick a hero to do it for me.

But sitting on my butt and nursing my hurt feelings won't get it done. It's harder than that. It all depends on whether you want it more than you want to feel superior. Politics is hard. But if you don't learn how, you will lose every time.

[RoccoR5955]

65. Thanks you for that.

I most certainly appreciate it.

[HarmonyRockets]

69. You call that principles?

What a joke.

[PJMcK]

70. The poster lost his brother

Try to be somewhat sympathetic regarding the OP. I suspect that an enlightened person as they seem to be and who is a member of Democratic Underground will vote for the Democratic candidate. Accordingly, your snakiness seems unnecessary. But please remember that we're on the same side.

[HarmonyRockets]

84. Read the post again.

He said he is not going to be voting for Clinton.

[PJMcK]

86. Consider that he might

Why do yo present an argumentative point? Aren't we all on the same side? I don't want Donald Trump to be elected president, do you? This poster is sincere. And

[HarmonyRockets]

90. Apparently we're not on the same side.

He doesn't care if it's Clinton or Trump.

[choie]

118. Jesus Christ

reading is fundamental.. Rocco lives in NY - a state which will elect Clinton, without a doubt. Consequently, he doesn't have to worry about voting for either Clinton or Trump and is able to vote his conscience. Why is that so difficult to understand?

[Jakes Progress]

133. So if I live in Texas

I shouldn't vote either?

Very cynical way to see principle.

[choie]

136. Your choice

[Jakes Progress]

138. Cynical. Very cynical.

And no way to advance the progressive movement.

I'll vote. There seem to be some birds who would rather preen their feathers of self-importance, puff up their sense of holiness, ignore their fetid nesting area, and sit on their thumbs.

Your choice.

[choie]

144. What do you know about the progressive cause?

Why am I even entertaining this...? What a waste of time..

[Jakes Progress]

150. Evidently, a lot more than you.

Why do I try explaining? Because I think the effort is worth it.

Join a union.
Start a union.
Run for council or school board.
Work for the party. (Sure there are a lot of third waters there, but if you stay home, that gives them more say.)
Stop whining. No one wants to support a whiner or be associated with them, and we want support.
Learn to be persuasive. You can't just stamp your food and declare your moral superiority. Tell me when that has ever worked.
Protest.


America is a two party system. Sure, there are better ways to do things, but wishing won't get it done. Learn how politics and government work and then work it. Sulking won't get it done anymore than a manufactured hero.

Don't give up. But don't kill the child because you don't like the bath water.

[bettyellen]

63. So the top thing you dislike about Trump is he is an oafish pick up artist?

Nothing about either of their policies?
But how they say at parties and funerals. Fine w me you're not voting. Don't want someone to win because you'd be okay having a beer with them.

[joeybee12]

68. adios...nt

[heaven05]

71. those who don't

vote deserve everything that comes their way. No whining after the election, okay.....

[Logical]

72. Door, ass, you get it. nt

[Amimnoch]

74. What she said on Nancy was wrong. What the Clintons did however was great.

http://archive.hhs.gov/news/press/2000pres/00fsaids.html

She may have been very wrong in what she said at that womans funeral, however, when the sad day comes that first ladies will speak of Hillary at her own funeral, those first ladies can utter the words Hillary mis-spoke about Nancy when speaking about former first lady and former President Clinton and those first ladies will be right.

MUCH progress, awareness, funding increases, and research breakthroughs DID happen under the Clinton administration in the 1990's.

If this is your main reason that you cannot find it in yourself to support her, I name your angst and anger to be very misdirected.

[Demsrule86]

75. What the reality of what you do is...

You support Trump...call it what you want...due to anger at Bernie's loss, you are willing to risk putting a hater in the White House...how sad...and it will be Bernie's real legacy ...division.

[choie]

119. Actually that's Clinton's legacy...

She has divided Democrats because she is a terrible candidate - bought and paid for - You Clinton supporters just don't get it. It is not our job to bend our values to vote for HER - it is HER job to win OUR votes.

[stevenleser]

143. Nope, polls show Democrats are uniting behind her faster than behind Obama in 2008

so your meme is wrong before you even got started.

[choie]

146. They are getting behind voting against Trump

Not for Clinton

[stevenleser]

147. If it makes you feel better to spin it that way, be my guest. Point is...

... the party isn't being split.

[athena]

77. Do you have perfect memory?

Do you ever remember something incorrectly? I do, often. And I think that Hillary's statement was simply a matter of remembering something differently from how it had actually happened. She was trying to say something nice about someone who had just died, and, given the difficulty, remembered the Reagans' effort on Alzheimer's and stem cell research as having been about HIV. Her handlers should have picked up on it, but perhaps they were overworked and tired. Anyone could have made such a mistake. These things happen.

[Starry Messenger]

78. Oh well.

When Trump is eating for free in the White House, I guess you'll have that to think about.

[chillfactor]

80. then sit at home on your ass....

while the rest of us exercise one of our greatest rights....VOTING!

[RoccoR5955]

98. I didn't say I was sitting on my ass.

If you read my post you would know that!

[Demsrule86]

81. Tick Tock

Also, one day left. The post is a giant excuse. And I don't even know why you are here if you think it is just fine to put Trump in the White House.

[RandySF]

87. While Hillary and the president are addressing attacks on Muslim and LGBT Americans

Your guy is sniping tonight over super delegates and Debbie Wasserman-Schultz.

[peace13]

128. Aaaaa...pretty short sighted.

Bernie has addressed the travesty in Orlando as well as he can from the position he is in. He has not undermined our President as some have done.

[jamese777]

89. In every election...

there are folks who just can't bring themselves to support either of the two major party candidates. Gary Johnson of the Libertarian Party and Jill Stein of the Green Party will be the most viable alternatives, as will the Constitution Party's candidate on the far right and the Peace and Freedom Party's candidate on the left.
I don't begrudge anyone their choice to vote for whomever makes the most sense to them. However upwards of 135 million other Americans will be voting for the Democrat or the Republican.

[Juicy_Bellows]

93. Thank you for your OP - I see you caught a lot of undeserved crap.

[book_worm]

95. Frankly, who cares? Just vote for whoever you want

I guess in the next few days we'll get a bunch of posts like this--pontificating on why they just can't vote for Hillary.

[rjsquirrel]

102. Good for you eom

[Metric System]

104. Larry Kramer and Dan Savage are supporting Hillary but, hey, what do they know about LGBT issues?

[RBInMaine]

108. This only helps the monster Trump and nothing more.

[ecstatic]

109. I don't usually do this, but the stakes are way too high. Off to ignore you go! nt

[jcgoldie]

111. foolish

But I'm pretty sure that's the response this post was designed to elicit.

[akbacchus_BC]

121. I really hope you will reconsider voting for Mrs. Clinton. This time it is not the

lesser of two evils, it is worst than that. The Republican presumptive nominee is batshit crazy. He should not be allowed to near to the White House far less being elected President. He will be the President of the craziest people of America, the bigots, the KKK, etc.

This time is pivotal in American history, Mrs. Clinton may have her flaws but she is 100% better than Trump!

I keep asking myself how on earth American politics fell so low! It is not a choice anymore, it is preserving your country. Mrs. Clinton may have a few flaws but she is strong and will fight back.

[Vinca]

123. I've been a supporter of Bernie's from his first day as Congressman from Vermont.

We were residents of the state at that time and it was a real joy to vote for Bernie every time he was up for election. Bernie was far and away my first choice for POTUS this time around, but there are winners and losers in elections. I've never cared much for Hillary, but when I put her next to Donald Trump it is putting a candidate I disagree with much of the time up against a crazy person. Trump is nuts. I will vote for Hillary because I don't want to have it on my conscience if Trump is elected because I was a spoiler. Supporting a candidate is important, but supporting a country is more important.

[Jakes Progress]

134. + 1

[RoccoR5955]

148. I also believe that supporting my country is important.

However, supporting my family is more important.
When someone tries to alter history that affected a close member of my family, my family comes FIRST.

[Vinca]

158. I have no idea what you're talking about, but I doubt Trump would be better for your family

and that's the choice. Trump or Clinton. IMO, Trump is crazy. Not eccentric, not excitable, not ego driven, but mentally ill. Hillary isn't my first, second or third choice, but I don't think she would flip a coin to decide whether to launch a nuke and that sounds like something crazy Trump would do. If Trump is elected, a full scale military coup wouldn't surprise me. The generals aren't going to bomb the rest of the world out of existence on the whim of "The Donald."

[RoccoR5955]

159. Of course you have no idea!

That is quite apparent.

[Vinca]

163. I assumed you were going to tell me whatever happened to your family that has altered your view.

I have many talents, but mindreading via the Internet isn't one of them.

[RoccoR5955]

164. You should never assume things

Because you make an ASS out of U and ME!

[Vinca]

165. I can't assume anything if I don't know what the heck you're talking about.

What's the point in posting a comment if you're going to speak in your own secret code?

[stonecutter357]

126. In other words take your ball and go home?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

127. It is your vote to use as you see fit. K&R

[Donald Ian Rankin]

135. You're exactly half as bad as a Trump voter. Shame on you. N.T.

[Stellar]

145. Hope there was only a handful of people like you where it won't matter and your conscience is clear.

[peace13]

153. Four in my family.

We all voted for Obama, twice. Two of the group despise Hill so much that they will vote for Trump if he runs against her. Two are adamant about not voting for Hill. Most people that I meet on the street dislike both candidates. Interesting phenomena. I suppose R Ohioans would have gone for Kasick and Dems are just not ready to go back in time. I think that both sides will find other candidates before it is all said and done. I do realize that this is out of the box thinking and don't worry about what anyone else thinks about it.

[Stellar]

161. Well, that's cool I guess, if some people prefer Trump and his policies over Hillary.

There's nothing I can do about it. Let'em burn the mofo down.

And I voted for Bernie by the way.

[peace13]

162. I simply replied so that you know there are rational people out there who are fed up.

It's OK whoever you voted for. No judgment. I will say that my concern is melting into disgust regarding the presumptive choices that we will have come November. Regarding burning the mofo down. Hill's choices in the ME will cause the Blow back here at home. Per the Orlando people trapped in the restroom with the shooter....his call to 911 included his appeal to the US to stop the action in Afghanistan. Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, who's next....Hill has helped to create the burning down you fear from Trump. Her name, her past, brings invokes anger toward the US. The chickens have come home to roost.

[The_Casual_Observer]

152. Blaming Clinton for a reagan problem is your choice.

[RoccoR5955]

156. That is NOT what I am doing.

I am blaming a Reagan supporter of attempting to alter history, and run as a Democrat!

[Zambero]

154. Not to worry

Millions and millions more will be determining the outcome for you.

[Buzz cook]

155. Don't care nt

[Night Watchman]

157. Fine

Don't.

[LanternWaste]

167. You can voter for Clinton, you choose not to; thus, 'cannot' is simply self-serving rhetoric.

Conflating "cannot" and "will not" is ethical convenience.

You can voter for Clinton, you choose not to; thus, 'cannot' is simply self-serving rhetoric. Or your grasp of basic English is lacking such that you are unable to express yourself plainly.

[RoccoR5955]

168. And I suppose that you have a PhD in writing.

Thank you doctor.
Perhaps I should have said that I shall not vote for either candidate. I did not want to make it as strong as that.
Look up can, will, and shall in your Funk and Wagnels.