Why would we want a law which required...

[LAS14]

Last edited Mon Apr 25, 2016, 05:46 PM - Edit history (3)

I was wrong. See post #63.



... the same minimum wage in Bethel, Maine, as in New York city? A good way to push small, rural towns too fast, or to limit big cities to the wages of rural America. That's the kind of reason I support Hillary. She THINKS. Twelve dollars an hour federal base line, with the more expensive locales urged to go to 15, as some have done already.

A lot of people responded that I was confusing minimum with maximum. Not so. I hope for a world where we all pay enough for our hamburgers that all the workers can support a family on a single paycheck. It seems clear that that is Hillary's desire too. I want the minimum wage to continue to go up. If we could manage a higher one, I'd be all for it.

Also, people read the phrase "limit big cities to the wages of rural America" as if I thought they couldn't pay more than the minimum. I see now that's how it can be read. What I meant, of course, was that workers whose employers pay the lowest possible rate would be limited to the wages of rural areas.

But I would stand by my point that it would be hurtful to pick a one-size fits all federal minimum.

The italics indicate a major edit.

[edgineered]

1. Is one to understand that

she THINKS we don't already have those federal minimum wage laws?

[LAS14]

3. Thanks for the heads up. I edited for more clarity.

[HERVEPA]

2. Your republican point is noted.

[LAS14]

5. See my edit, in case you misunderstood.

[HERVEPA]

21. A little better, but $12/hour is too low anywhere

[jmowreader]

31. $12 an hour would be Fat City in half of Idaho

[HERVEPA]

32. No it wouldn't. It wouldn't be Fat City anywhere.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

52. Thank you, and no it wouldnt. It would if you think owning a microwave makes you

well off, as the Koch Bros will tell you.

[HERVEPA]

53. Yes, of course it wouldn't.

[Jackie Wilson Said]

54. 400 Americans have as much as 150 million combined. This does not happen

by accident.

Capitalism has become a religion and the god it worships is evil.

[jmowreader]

56. Never lived in Idaho?

Get away from the tourist towns like Sandpoint and Coeur d'Alene, and $12 is good money.

[HERVEPA]

57. $24,000 a year is good money nowhere in this country.

[Adrahil]

65. The MEDIAN wage where I live is about $13/hr....

Now don't get me wrong... I want to push the minimum and median wage up, but to me it makes sense to base the minimum wage on the cost of living, rather than on an artificial one-size-fits-all approach.

[catnhatnh]

4. So the concept of minimum is as confusing to you

as the concept of a living wage? Minimum wage doesn't stop you from paying more than the person needs to sustain themselves-and you know that, but a living wage prevents them from paying less. That's the reason I support Bernie. He CARES.

[LAS14]

6. I care too. See my edit.

Do you disagree that some places are more expensive to live in than others?

[cui bono]

17. Of course the cost of living is different in different places, but $15/hr is nowhere near what you

need to make to live in NYC. And forget about San Francisco too. People talk about $15/hr as if it's a lot of money but the truth of the matter is is simply isn't. And that's what makes it all the worse when someone who is worth tens (hundreds maybe?) of millions can't even fight for people to make a meager $15/hr. She could at least try instead of taking the position of "no we can't".

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

And there's nothing to stop states (and possibly cities) from enacting higher minimum wage laws than the federal law. California does it. And other states have recently enacted a $15 minimum wage law.

If you ask me, it doesn't look like Hillary is doing much thinking on this issue. Bernie is the one who is fighting for the people to make a decent living.

.

[Electric Monk]

7. re: "limit big cities to the wages of rural America"

there's nothing stopping employers in big cities from paying their employees more than that minimum if they want to retain the good ones. You do understand what the word minimum means, I hope?


Here's an interesting read for you: http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/anth484/minwage.html

[cui bono]

20. Or states from enacting higher minimum wage laws.

The OP is confused about what a minimum wage is and what a maximum wage would be.

.

[LAS14]

34. See my edits on OP. But to your point. Of course...

... there's nothing to stop them, and so we count on places like New York and LA to increase their minimum wage. We hope everyone will increase it even beyond the inflatioin index. I just want the Bethel, Maine, people and the New York people to have some flexibility... in both directions.

[Vattel]

8. You need to think a little more. The federal minimum wage law Sanders favors

does not prohibit NYC or any other city or state from having a higher minimum wage. He no doubt thinks that some local minimum wages should be higher than $15.

Hillary wants the federal minimum wage to be $12 per hour, Bernie $15. Neither wants all state and local minimum wage laws to be the same.

[LAS14]

35. I wasn't talking about local and state.

Last edited Mon Apr 25, 2016, 11:43 AM - Edit history (1)

Bernie wants $15 federal limit for all areas of the country (this includes any company that crosses state lines). Hillary wants a 12$ limit with the expectation that high cost of living areas will go higher. I would be delighted if we could make the base even higher. I trust (yes trust) the experts who have put a lot of effort into this to have proposed something that might be adopted. I confess. I think "the establishment" has a lot of really smart, dedicated, caring people in it. Along with, of course, the greedy, hostile, self-involved people we all know about.

[Vattel]

43. That is not correct.

Bernie wants a $15 limit with the expectation that high cost of living areas will go higher.

[LAS14]

44. Oh. Well, I guess that makes sense.

[angstlessk]

9. You DO understand that all federal laws pertaining to labor

exempts small business' from those laws?

[Thinkingabout]

11. Now that is a new one, I have worked for a small company, ran a small company and the

Minimum wage of $7.25 was the minimum wage paid.

[angstlessk]

16. How many employees and how much did the company make?

http://money.cnn.com/2014/04/23/smallbusiness/minimum-wage-exemptions/

[Thinkingabout]

23. Three employees and about $125,000

[angstlessk]

24. Well that company is exempt unless it does business with the federal government

http://money.cnn.com/2014/04/23/smallbusiness/minimum-wage-exemptions/

[Thinkingabout]

25. First of all, I would have never thought about paying less than $7.25 and I did not pay less.

[angstlessk]

26. Fine, but you could have paid less thasn the federal minimum wage..n/t

[Bluenorthwest]

45. I note your first post said you worked for that company, now you are saying it was your company....

Not sure why you'd play such games.

[Thinkingabout]

47. You need to go back and read it again, I am not playing a game. Two different companies

one I owned and ran and another company in which I made minimum wages. It is clearer now?

[anigbrowl]

60. Not sure why you wouldn't read properly

Poster said s/he 'worked for a small company, ran a small company' - right there in the title of the post. I have no respect for people who go off firing accusations and are too lazy to even look back at what was previously written before posting a reply. You owe the other poster a crawling apology for your unjustified accusation.

[Bohemianwriter]

29. So you thought that the employees who kmade you a profit...

Was not worth more than 7.25?

Was it full time or part time? Did they get any benefits?

Or did you pocket most of the profit they generated?

[Thinkingabout]

51. Bye

[Bohemianwriter]

55. Your answer reflects your attitude towards workers...

As well as human beings in general....

Hillary supporters are making a mockery of what means being progressive...

[Thinkingabout]

58. You don't have any idea, a job steward for 31 years, yes I care about workers, don't

judge me by your attitude.

[LAS14]

36. I do, but the federal minimum has a ripple effect.

[Warren DeMontague]

10. because it's the right thing to do.

[Lucinda]

12. KNR

[Thinkingabout]

13. To your point, in labor contracts which has many cities and all states it was the standard

For employees doing the same responsibility to make different wages based on classification. As in NYC made more money per week than Mobile, Al. So you are somewhat correct, there is a federal minimum and if cities wants to increase their minimum wage it can happen. One person on Sanders campaign team which can explain this is Larry Cohen, he was president of the CWA.

[Recursion]

14. To stop poor states from poaching employers from rich states

I mean, I grew up in a state that strongly benefited from that poaching (a $12/hour job in a car factory is awful compared to the Elder Days in Detroit, but incredible compared to what Mississippi had before), so I get that side of it too, but the purpose of a national minimum wage is to limit that kind of poaching.

[jeff47]

15. Apparently you do not understand that "minimum" is not "maximum".

Just because the minimum is $15 does not mean those expensive places could not have a higher minimum.

As for your talking point about destroying those small, rural towns, they seemed to do just fine when the minimum wage was $21 (adjusted for inflation and productivity). In fact, it was near the beginning of the largest and longest economic boom in our planet's history.

[LAS14]

37. See my edit.

[jeff47]

46. Your edit does not change your erroneous position.

You continue to argue that cities and states could not enact higher minimum wages after a $15 minimum.

In addition, you failed to address that your talking point about "destroying rural towns" did not play out when we had a $21 minimum wage in the 1960s (when adjusted for inflation and productivity).

[ScreamingMeemie]

18. Because we're fucking Democrats for Dog's sake.

Jesus Christ, I don't recognize this place at all anymore.

[RobertEarl]

22. Indeed

LASt time I looked it seems like the H support requires regressive democracy. Not progress but regress. Too bad H can't promise progress the race might be over with if she did.


And since she isn't, she's dragging DU backward, hence regressive op's like this.

[FSogol]

40. +1 Seriously, what's next, attacking the free lunch program for schools?

[cui bono]

19. There is nothing stopping states from enacting their own minimum wage laws that are higher

than the federal minimum wage. Many states have done it. California has been doing it for a long time. There is no law that will "limit big cities to the wages of rural America". I don't know where you got that from. If you got if from Hillary's site or campaign they they are clearly NOT thinking because it's factually incorrect.

The federal minimum wage is just the bare bones and is not enough to make it in a city like NYC or San Francisco. it is just what it is called, a "minimum" wage. It is not a "maximum" wage. You have confused those two I believe.

.

[LAS14]

38. I meant, of course, limit those businesses...

... who choose to pay as little as possible. I'll go edit the OP again.

[cui bono]

59. Who is limiting anyone? There is no limit. There is just a basic safety net wage.

And again, states are welcome to enact higher minimum wage laws as they deem necessary, like CA has been doing for a long time.

.

[SheilaT]

27. In the distant past I worked for a large national corporation

Ma Bell, to be specific, that did pay different wages for the exact same job, depending on where you lived. I was in one of the lower-paid places, and we were not at all happy with that.

A couple of years later I went to work for an airline (no longer in existence) that employed people in a number of different states, and we made the exact same money for the exact same job. I was then living in one of the higher cost of living places (the DC area) and it felt fair, although I recall a co-worker commenting about how very well he could live on that money in, say, West Virginia.

a $15/hour minimum wage for all, regardless of where you live, is fair. Companies really ought to pay more in more expensive areas, but that's a totally different conversation.

[Bohemianwriter]

28. What logic

It's the minum wage that is a great threat to the economy, and not the bankers who defraud you!

[AgingAmerican]

30. Raising wages doesn't "wreak havoc" on small towns

It helps them economically

[LAS14]

39. see edit on op

[LAS14]

33. I've edited the post.

I shouldn't have said "wreak havoc." It gives the impression that I see the minimum wage, in principle, as dangerous. I don't. It's one of my strongest held opinions that none of us should get cheap anything if it means the workers that made it can't support a family. I put the edits in italics.

[beedle]

41. So basically you have no argument against Bernie's plan.

Apology accepted.

[LAS14]

42. Well, I do have a difference.

I don't want to mandate $15 for all areas of the country. Given the possibilities I want to mandate $12 with the expectation/hope that higher cost of living parts of the country will increase it to $15. This is based on the assumption that $15 is a good goal for places like New York.

I wish they could/would set it up like Medicare, where doctors are paid depending on the wages in their part of the country.

[cui bono]

61. Why? What made you decide $12 is enough? n/t

[Dem2]

48. I agree

We have a lot of semi-retired people in my company that are happy making $10/hr now (rural/low std of living area.) $12/hr would be a decent number to shoot for, but $15/hr would make it very difficult on the company. $15/hr is actually less money to live on in high std of living areas like NY & CA cities than many $12/hr in low std. of living rural areas.

[Bluenorthwest]

49. You say "a world where we all pay enough for our hamburgers that all the workers can support a

family". Right now, we are paying enough for our burgers that the burger executives and media spokespeople get paid many millions and travel by limo and Gulfstreamer...... Don't you think that indicates there is more room to work on equity than just the hiking of burger prices? I think there are a few areas that could be reorganized for greater parity and economic justice.....I do not believe that the entire formula is 'Cost of burger flippers = Price of burger'.

[cherokeeprogressive]

50. Do cars cost the same in Bethel, Maine as they do in NYC? How about refrigerators? Microwaves?

Furniture? Cell phones? Gasoline?

[anigbrowl]

62. No probably not

A lot of things are cheaper outside urban locations. while consumer durables don't vary much in price, things like food, real property, gas, and others tend to be much cheaper. My best friend is just now looking at moving from a large urban area to a small town a few hundred miles away and her monthly rent will be falling by more than half.

[LAS14]

63. OK, I was wrong. Sort of.

As someone in this thread said, Sanders' and Clinton's positions are the same except for the amount of the proposed minimum. Sanders wants $15 and Clinton wants $12. What I wasn't realizing is that Sanders, like Clinton, would be very happy for the high cost areas to raise minimum wages higher.

This is an aha experience. I watched all of the debates, and if Sanders had once said just what I said above, it would have been clear. I should have figured it out, but partisanship dulls our hearing.

The fact remains that I support Clinton's position because I trust her and her advisors to have hit upon a minimum that is achievable in the near term. I trust her commitment to do the best possible thing. I'll leave it to Sanders to keep the long term in sight.

[joshcryer]

64. This is actually uncontroversial, and it's been the policy approach for awhile.

Here's a post where I rant about it: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=6120756

It's so silly that anyone would even argue this.