Snopes addresses Ohio voting machine controversy - paper ballots should prevent malfeasance.

[mzmolly]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/romney/votingmachines.asp

The most comforting portion of the article is as follows:

... the potential for vote-tampering in Ohio through manipulation of Hart Intercivic's equipment is quite low. As the Cleveland Plain-Dealer reported, the Hart InterCivic machines used in Ohio don't record voters' selections directly — they are merely standalone scanners that tabulate paper ballots, so any close or suspect results could be confirmed through a recount:

Elections officials in Ohio's Hamilton and Williams counties — the only two of Ohio's 88 counties that use equipment made by Hart InterCivic — as well as company representatives say there's no way such meddling could occur.

Both counties use a paper balloting system in which results are tallied by scanners made by Hart InterCivic. All programming of the machines, diagnostic testing, and vote tabulation is done by elections staff in each county and no vote tabulation is done over the Internet, county election board representatives say. The paper ballots are there as backup and can be recounted with Democratic and Republican party representatives on hand.

"There is no truth to the idea that anyone could get into our system and tamper with the results," said Hamilton County elections board deputy director Sally Krisel.

FYI - the company in question, Hart InterCivic owns voting machines in two Ohio counties: Williams County, which has 25,000 registered voters, and Hamilton County, which has 565,000 registered voters. For more on Williams County ballots, see here: http://www.co.williams.oh.us/BOE/index1.htm

Also note -

Hamilton County’s primary voting source is a paper ballot. At the polling place, the voter scans the paper ballot into Hart InterCivic’s eScan digital imaging scanner. Hamilton County also provides Hart InterCivic’s eSlate Disabled Access Unit, so voter’s with disabilities may vote independently at the polling place.

http://boe.hamilton-co.org/voting-on-election-day/voting-equipment.aspx

I understand the valid concern surrounding voting machines being owned by partisan Republicans, as I share them. But, I am hopeful that paper ballots and early voting, will allow for a fair election.

[liberalmuse]

1. OMG, I was there just this morning.

It made me feel better, but then I Googled further and found that apparently Obama is involved in vast conspiracy to steal Republican votes. Oh, how the tables turn when you try to Google your way out of fear.

[LisaL]

2. That's good to know.

Not every electronic machine gives out any sort of paper receipt.

[factsarenotfair]

3. If there isn't a cross-check between a hand-tallied sample and corresponding machine-tallied sample,

then the machine count is not verified. Just having the paper ballots for a recount is not enough.

[mzmolly]

8. No it's not enough, but if there is a reason to suspect fraud,

a recount of paper ballots, can be completed.

[krawhitham]

4. Or maybe this

[crunch60]

31. Or maybe this..

[marions ghost]

37. This is long but I finally got a chance to watch it

Palast says almost 6 million votes will likely be stolen in 2012 but that is half what he believes were stolen in 2008. He says often votes aren't flipped, they just disappear.

He also says that the Big Money Tycoons are split--the traditional banksters will go with Obama while the "hedge fund cowboys" stick with Rmoney.

Palast also says what I believe about vote tampering--that in 2012, the agenda is to swing the congressional races of interest, while Obama remains in office (they don't believe he can really hurt them at all). Then they are well set for 2016.

[Rene]

5. I'd like someone to confirm that i/p address / DNS entries for election servers cannot be switched

to other locations and programming be used to change votes......as was done with the Ohio Secretary of State's servers in 2004....when they switched, via server addresses, from Ohio location to the RNC Computer Center in Chattanooga Tenn. Kerry in lead when they switched.....votes were flipped.....and the DNS entries were switched back to Ohio just before 11pm with the false #'s showing Bush now in the lead. Kerry's vote lead was stolen by programming. Anyone working in IT with Distributed servers understands how the servers are 'virtual'.....and actual physical location is highly switchable...
Anyone looking at the screen would never even know the underlying processing is taking place in another physical location.

AND who is securiing all the computers that the early voting has been cast on.

[Columbus Free Press]

35. Monday

We will do a records request on that.

A story will follow.

[mzmolly]

36. Thank

you.

[Columbus Free Press]

6. They seem like they know something...but they dont

This is how it works:

1) Hart makes optical scanners. These will be used. They fail. like here:

http://www.votersunite.org/info/yakimaproblemreport.asp

They also have severe vulnerabilities shown here:

https://www.verifiedvoting.org/resources/voting-equipment/hart-intercivic/escan/

2) Hart makes a DRE machine with a paper trail for blind and otherwise differently abled voters. There is no reason why the paper trail will reflect whats stored in memory.

3) The memory cards are removed from both kinds of machines and fed into a central tabulator.

4) Malicious software entered into either type of machine through an accessable interface can corrupt the machine.

5) Malicious software can propagate from the memory cards to the central tabulator corrupting the result there.

6) The Director of the Hamilton County Board of Elections will allow you to take your Ipad or PDA into the voting booth with you.

Any questions?

[mzmolly]

9. Questions? No. But you forget the possible hand re-count of paper ballots

should doing so be necessary.

[Columbus Free Press]

12. Problems with that are

1) you need to go to court.

2) you have extended chain of custody problems

3) on DRE machines the paper tape moves past so fast people cant read it ---AND--- many people dont check

4) An audit usually only checks a percentage of the votes at random... like 5%

The only solution is 100% paper ballots hand counted at the precinct on election night.

[mzmolly]

13. Not quite accurate.

http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/ebook/part5/procedures_recount01.html

[nycbiscuit]

7. yeah, but

this failsafe of having paper ballots to recount only matters if the difference between Romney and Obama is within a fraction of a percent. If the readers and initial totals are fraudulently changed, resulting in a variance of greater than 1%, then a recount isn't even triggered and the paper ballots just go into storage.

[Columbus Free Press]

10. Or if they county workers are in on it

Which I strongly suspect they are in this case...

The ballot get illegally dumped

[mzmolly]

11. Any losing candidate can request a recount in Ohio.

http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/ebook/part5/procedures_recount01.html

Any losing nominee or candidate in a primary, general, or special election can request a recount. Also, a group of five or more voters can request a recount on a question or issue. The recount process begins by filing a written application with the Board of Elections of each county in which votes are to be recounted. R.C. 3515.01. The application must be filed within five days after the results were declared. R.C. 3515.02. The application must also list each precinct within the county where votes are to be recounted, and for each precinct a $10 deposit must be paid. R.C. 3515.03.

If the margin of victory of the nominee, candidate, or issue is less than one-half of one percent of the vote, section 3515.011 of the Revised Code triggers an automatic recount in all county, municipal, and district elections. An even slimmer margin —one-fourth of one percent—triggers an automatic recount in a statewide election.

[Columbus Free Press]

14. As yes Moritz... right down the street...

Dan and Ed...

You can read about who butters their bread in my most excellent article here:

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2012/4754

[mzmolly]

15. I'm not concerned about bread or butter,

but about the recount process in Ohio.

[Columbus Free Press]

17. As am I

Since I'm a progressive journalist --In Ohio-- who is tasked with Election Fraud investigation.

---And---

A Computer Security Guy.

Since it's my job to find out the truth about election equipment, who makes it, and who butters their bread, and report it to you dear reader this is my Expert Conclusion:

A 100% Hand Count is much much better than any recount.

The Electoral Process is much better off getting it right the first time wouldnt you agree?

[mzmolly]

18. I do agree on getting it right the first time.

However, even hand counted ballots, are potentially subject to someone fudging numbers.

We agree that the system needs more integrity and a standardized procedure. Thanks for all the work you do. I do appreciate it, even if we don't agree on every nuance.

[mzmolly]

16. BTW- Are you suggesting Ohio Democrats stay home?

I respect your work, good sir. But IIRC 2008 was also going to be stolen according to some?

Let's agree to advocate for paper ballots and a standardized, national voting system. But, I don't think that asserting election fraud is a given, is good for motivating turn out.

[Columbus Free Press]

21. And now I know which echo chamber you've been in.

There have been a number of people who have contacted us to get us to pipe down, or tried to suppress our stories, or trolled that this is all conspiracy theory on suposition that telling the truth and/or suggesting an effective remedy in this (not the next) election will suppress voter turn out.

Rather than using this as a tool to effectively mobilize their base, the mandarins and part hacks take counsel of their fears and say shhhh... Using these facts to further mobilize the base is a sure way of defeating election fraud. Because elections can only be effectively stolen within certain margins.

So far as 2008 went... it was stolen from Obama, just not by enough votes. As Richard Charnin proved with his excellent statistical studies, Obama got robbed for 13 million votes in 2008. The mandate for change was just so massive and McCain so massively unpopular that the theft was not enough.

[mzmolly]

23. I've been in the concerned about Ohio, echo chamber.

And, the "we need paper ballots" echo chamber. However, now I'm in the less concerned, because there are paper ballots echo chamber.

It seems that many who were wrong about election theft in 2008, suggest it's because Obama won by such an overwhelming majority, that theft wasn't possible?

There are many ways to steal elections, as you know. Purging voter rolls, preventing an adequate number of machines in heavily Dem districts, and so on. The least of my concerns, is theft in a county with a clear paper trail.

[renate]

38. gee, thanks for the insomnia....

But seriously, thank you so much for looking into this.

Welcome to DU!

[Phx_Dem]

20. Good to know! :-)

[Phx_Dem]

19. Oh, well if "election officials in Ohio" say there's nothing to worry about then

they're probably big fucking liars. As far as a recount goes, there has to actually BE a recount in order to ensure those ballots were propertly counted. And if they steal it by a largest enough margin, they may not be a recount. OTOH, Obama doesn't take any shit from punks like Romney and he's not going to sit polishing his concession speech while Romney steals votes. So if Romney thinks Obama is Al Gore or John Kerry, he's in for a rude awakening.

[Columbus Free Press]

22. Ah yes... election officials in Ohio... known for telling the truth

or not...

as I documented yesterday:

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2012/4758

and the day before:

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2012/4756

[mzmolly]

26. I don't know if they're truthful or not. But I do know they have paper ballots

in the counties in question.

[mzmolly]

24. Yes. It would be pretty foolish to attempt theft in an area with a clear paper trail,

against an incumbent who will not take it sitting down.

[Columbus Free Press]

27. Sadly... This is where we differ

I think they would and I believe they will.

I would rather place my faith in the citizens than politicians. Al Gore's pitiful attempt to defend his victory in 2000 did not impress me as a political effort. And it didnt impress Vincent Bugliosi as a legal effort:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Betrayal_of_America

Sources close to John Kerry have informed the Free Press that knows the election was stolen. Yet he did nothing.

I'm not going to cross my fingers for Obama to push the rock uphill on this one.

These people are going to cheat.

And the Free Press intends to catch them. Soon we will be announcing a major election monitoring and protection effort in Ohio. Stay tuned

[mzmolly]

29. Believe me, I'm not of the "they wouldn't try to steal an election"

Last edited Fri Oct 26, 2012, 11:08 PM - Edit history (1)

mindset. And, I'm incredibly thankful for people like you, who are working to protect voting integrity and by extension, our democracy. And, I don't disagree with you about election 2000.

Again, I would like to see a paper trail in every state/city/county. I think national elections should have the same criteria from state to state, and be subject to far greater scrutiny. I have experience with accounting/auditing, and think our election system leaves much to be desired. We need a complete overhaul, IMO. I'm sure we agree on this.

I realize the paper trail in Ohio doesn't comfort everyone, but it's reassuring to me, for the reasons I've noted above.

[Columbus Free Press]

30. As a computer Security person

a paper trail doesnt comfort me.

Pure paper voting with citizens witnessing the count is the only effective means.

A recounted paper trail is a poor 2nd best...

And likely all we will have baring injunctive relief

[mzmolly]

32. As a former accountant, a pure paper voting system doesn't comfort me.

I prefer a system with a cross reference. I want a ballot, that I can place into a tabulator myself. I want my vote automatically uploaded to a universal data base, which keeps an ongoing tabulation of votes. I want vote totals, to be cross referenced and audited on election night, matching computer tabulations, to paper ballots. I want the vote audited and reps from all parties present, at every voting precinct across the nation on voting day. (Especially in swing states.) I want machines tested and secured, prior to and after each election.

A witness does not prevent someone from writing down and/or in-putting an incorrect total. Further, ballots can be destroyed or not properly counted. And vote counts can be subject to human error.

I also would like to see absentee ballots issued at local post offices or? with the ability to personally insert one's vote into a standardized voting machine. My dream is likely far off.

I realize computers can be hacked. But a system involving numbered ballots, combined with a computerized tally, involving proper auditing, would be the most secure IMHO.

[renate]

39. I love this part:

"... the Free Press intends to catch them."

That's amazing and brave. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

[mzmolly]

40. Thankfully, no

election theft to speak of.

[brooklynite]

25. So then, Snopes must be part of the media conspiracy...

[Columbus Free Press]

28. or willfully blind

When snopes says one thing...

And Forbes, the Washington Post, Salon, Market Business Daily and even a Fox affilate check our work and quote us and say there is something there...

And Snopes does not...

What does that say?

[Tribetime]

33. is this only 2 of 88 counties? just asking are the

other counties free to use the system they choose. I just thought that there was 6 or so different systems used in Ohio. Thanks mzmolly

[mzmolly]

34. There are two counties that have machines owned by Hart InterCivic.

Here is more info on Ohio's voting machines - in general.

http://verifier.verifiedvoting.org/verifiernew/map.php?state=Ohio

Williams County is one of the counties where H.I. owns equipment.
http://verifier.verifiedvoting.org/verifiernew/map.php?statefips=39&county=Williams&ec=allall&year=2012

Hamilton County is the other.
http://verifier.verifiedvoting.org/verifiernew/map.php?statefips=39&county=Hamilton&ec=allall&year=2012

Note VVPAT = Voter-verified paper audit trail

You're welcome, Tribetime.