2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumWhy not Hillary?
Let me say, once again, that I will vote for Hillary as the nominee, that I think she probably will be, and that she will be a far better president than any Republican nominee. But this is about why I worry that she will not be a very good president. Less bad is not the same as good.
It goes back to the Iraq vote. I recently read that it is sexist to hold that against Hillary, since Kerry also voted for it, as did many others including a large number of males. But, in a way, that's the problem.
It's not my view that Hillary is a warmonger. Clearly, Hillary's vote was not the deciding vote. We cannot know how she would have voted had it been. Indeed as I recall it, the majority of the country supported action against Iraq; I believe Hillary and John Kerry were voting as the majority of their constituents would have had them vote. But, in a way, that's the problem.
It was a calculated position that minimized her (and his) opposition at the time. But it has harmed them both in the longer run, and especially Hillary, since she is running for the highest office at a time when the error is far more clear than it was in 2004.
That's what bothers me: shortsightedness. Calculation and devious statecraft are regrettable necessities in a president, and Hillary can be calculating and devious, and thinks in terms of statecraft. Good. But will her lack of foresight get us into even deeper mud than a principled position would do? Her record suggests to me that it probably would.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)rogerashton
(3,920 posts)I don't agree; I think that view is a bit exaggerated.
beedle
(1,235 posts)you don't indicate that she pushed for more war as SoS when she had no constituents 'forcing' her to war monger.
rogerashton
(3,920 posts)jfern
(5,204 posts)Lucinda
(31,170 posts)and still, she didnt rush out screaming for heads.
She took a measured careful stance, and made it clear in her speech to the senate that she was only voting for the resolution to be used as a negotiaton tool to get the inspectors back in. Her error in judgment comes from trusting what she was told by Bush. If they had used the resolution as they said they would, there would have been a completely different outcome.
Many of us would never have trusted the administration, but Clinton, Kerry and Edwards still expected the word of the POTUS to be honorable at that point. They all learned a vey hard lesson about Bush and Cheney.
rogerashton
(3,920 posts)that Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11. And the claim that Hillary trusted the administration strains my credibility a bit. But, as I said, I do take it that she voted as the majority of her constituents wanted her to -- at that time. My case is not that she is devious -- I'm for devious. It is that this calculated decision has harmed her in the longer run, that it was shortsighted. And if your "explanation" is a correct statement rather than a calculated slant, then her shortsightedness in trusting the president is no less a problem than her shortsighted commitment to avoid a transitory political hit.
AzDar
(14,023 posts)KNEW that. Hillary cast her Bush/Cheney Illegal War Vote "With CONVICTION"...
She's either Incompetent or Corrupt... or BOTH.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)There is a very easy way to prevent anyone from being put into harm's way, and that is for Saddam Hussein to disarm, and I have absolutely no belief that he will. I have to say that this is something I have followed for more than a decade.
For now nearly 20 years, the principal reason why women and children in Iraq have suffered, is because of Saddam's leadership.
The very difficult question for all of us, is how does one bring about the disarmament of someone with such a proven track record of a commitment, if not an obsession, with weapons of mass destruction.
I ended up voting for the Resolution after carefully reviewing the information and intelligence I had available, talking with people whose opinions I trusted, trying to discount political or other factors that I didn't believe should be in any way a part of this decision, and it is unfortunate that we are at the point of a potential military action to enforce the resolution. That is not my preference, it would be far preferable if we had legitimate cooperation from Saddam Hussein, and a willingness on his part to disarm, and to account for his chemical and biological storehouses.
With respect to whose responsibility it is to disarm Saddam Hussein, I do not believe that given the attitudes of many people in the world community today that there would be a willingness to take on very difficult problems were it not for United States leadership
silvershadow
(10,336 posts)rogerashton
(3,920 posts)I do worry a bit that he is not devious and calculating enough.
Which poses an interesting question:
Are sound principles a substitute for calculation with foresight?
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)rogerashton
(3,920 posts)listeth Hillary. Therefore, after she is elected, we all need to blow really hard.
TheDormouse
(1,168 posts)Runningdawg
(4,527 posts)more baggage than the Titanic. At this point I support Bernie but in the end will #VoteBlueNoMatterWho
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)None. I never know what to believe with her.
I do agree that she will likely be better than any Repub, but that really isn't saying much. I hope she would be. But the lesser of two evils really is good enough anymore. This country, imo, deserves better.
TM99
(8,352 posts)do they just not want to remember, or were they just not paying attention?
The reality was that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Many knew this including plenty of New Yorkers. Sanders knew this as did other politicians, generals, and statesmen.
Clinton did not just vote for the resolution. She stood up on the floor of the Senate and parroted the exact same language as Bush, Cheney, Powell, and Rumsfeld were using to sell this illegal military invasion. From WMD's to terrorists ties to Hussein, she used their language. Period. That is a fact. It is on record.
So one of two realities is the correct one. Either she was a complete dumbass and just went along to get along or she agreed with the premises behind the neocon agenda.
If it is the former, then she has no business being president. And she never should have been made SoS. She is too stupid to be qualified for those leadership positions.
Naturally, she is intelligent, and she knew exactly what she was doing and saying. So it is the later that is the obvious and sad truth. She agreed with the neocon position. How do we know this for sure? Easy. We look at her other Senate votes and her actions at State. She voted for regime change in Iran. She voted for the Patriot Act and multiple reauthorizations. She voted for cluster bombs. At State, she pushed for regime change in Central and South America. She pushed hard in opposition to Obama on Syria. And her Libya horrors are self-evident, all the way down to the "We came, we saw, he died" public statement made with psychopathic giddiness. She has recently been endorsed by Kagan, one of the founders of the PNAC. She looks to Kissinger as a mentor and wise voices on diplomacy and military intervention.
You are incorrect. She is, by all the facts available, a war monger. She holds neocon foreign policy positions. She is not shortsighted in the least. She has a vision and is farsighted in it. The problem is that it is not a vision of peace. Sanders is truly farsighted and a man of balanced foreign policy. He saw the dangers of the Iraq War and their likely consequences. He spoke out against it. She cheerleadered for it.
rogerashton
(3,920 posts)I see no evidence that Hillary is willing to sacrifice her own career for a neocon agenda.
Government is a violent and complicated business. Even Bernie supported our intervention in the former Yugoslavia -- a wrong decision in my judgment but one that still seems to have majority support in the US. Nor is it clear to me that the removal of Khaddafi was a wrong decision -- the alternative may have been even worse (as in Syria though, I certainly observe, Syria is a different case.) I remain of the opinion that Hillary took the Iraq war position for short-term political profit. Perhaps it is time to "dispel with the idea that (Hillary) doesn't know what (she) is doing," as you suggest, but I am not persuaded.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)I will never vote Hillary.
A million dead Iraqis and thousands of dead US soldiers probably agree with my view over yours.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)In other words, they were on the REPUBLICAN'S side.
rogerashton
(3,920 posts)the Democrats paid their price in 2002-2004. Only subsequently has that looked like a good political position. I recall lunching with a friend -- a south Philadelphia redneck -- and while we were both against the war, we agreed that it would feel really good to -- I don't want to use the redneck phrase as it could be offensive -- to just do some violence to someone from that part of the world. It was a dark time for American politics.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)TheFarseer
(9,328 posts)Not Kerry over Bernie. That's the difference.