2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumBernie Supporters in Washington Demand that superdelegates Respect the Wishes of their Constituents
Bernie Sanders supporters in Washington state are demanding that Washingtons superdelegates respect the wishes of their constituents, who voted 72.7% for Sanders in yesterdays Democratic caucuses.
Unlike delegates who are elected through the Democratic process in primaries and caucuses, the so-called superdelegates are free to vote for whomever they want at the Democratic Convention. A majority of Washingtons 17 superdelegates already endorsed Hillary Clinton, even before yesterdays caucuses took place, as have the vast majority of superdelegates throughout the United States, giving Hillary Clinton a much greater lead (if the superdelegates who have endorsed her vote for her at the Democratic Convention) over Sanders than she would otherwise have. Most public published accounts of the current delegate counts actually include the votes of those superdelegates who have endorsed Clinton. Clinton currently leads Sanders in those superdelegate votes by 469 to 29, which takes little or no account of the public voting in the states that they represent. Their votes give Clinton an apparently insurmountable lead over Sanders. They fall in line with the wishes of the Democratic Party establishment and are a blatant affront to the democratic process. Not even the Republican Party uses such a process.
Sanders supporters in Washington are circulating a petition, which already has more than 6 thousand signatures. They are warning the elected superdelegates, You work for us. We want Bernie. Respect us or lose your jobs.
Other states should do the same. They should also consider whether there is a significant gap in favorability ratings of the candidates (Bernies is currently +7.4%, Hillarys is -13.2%) and how they do in head to head competition vs. the Republican nominee (Bernie does much better than Hillary against all the major Republican likely nominees).
MadBadger
(24,089 posts)You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Time for change
(13,718 posts)They should respect the wishes of their constituents, but also, we want to nominate someone who has the best chance of beating the Republican nominee. Voters voting today don't know how that's going to shape up at the time of the convention. I voted for Bernie in my primary, but if polls show that Hillary has a much better chance of winning the GE than Bernie at the time of the Democratic Convention, then I would want Florida's superdelegates to vote for Hillary.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Jitter65
(3,089 posts)crossovers from the total voting. I wouldn't mind if some of the supers changed in accordance with the percentage of true Democrats that they represent.
Time for change
(13,718 posts)Shouldn't they have a say in our Democracy too?
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)They could at least respect the vote of the people
CorporatistNation
(2,546 posts)!
LiberalFighter
(51,210 posts)Not very representative of the voters that will show up in the general.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)are going directly against the voters.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)He swept every damn COUNTY. I just thought I would reiterate your point.
It's nuts.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)AMAZING!
monicaangela
(1,508 posts)And the super delegates of those states should follow the will of the people.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)I'm really impressed. Really, really impressed.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)How scary.
3 million Washingtonians voted in 2012. just over 200k participated in the Washington State Caucus. Who exactly do they speak for except themselves?
And why should the super delegates surrender their judgment and independence to these folks exactly?
All 200k of them are going to get together and do what exactly?
SamKnause
(13,111 posts)In the state of Vermont he won 86% of the votes.
!!!!!!!!!!!86%!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He got every single delegate !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hillary was not even viable.
She did not get a single delegate.
Howard Dean is a super delegate in the state of Vermont.
He is a pharma lobbyist.
He has pledged his super delegate vote to Hillary.
Bernie is fighting the establishment.
This is an example of the establishment telling the 99% we don't
give a flying fuck about the will of the people.
opiate69
(10,129 posts)kennetha
(3,666 posts)libtodeath
(2,888 posts)Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Henhouse
(646 posts)The DNC has been using superdelegates since 1968.... If you want to change the system fine....but this is just childish You work for us. We want Bernie. Respect us or lose your jobs.
PS. I supported HRC in 2008 and I know how frustrating the nominating process can be.
Time for change
(13,718 posts)In a democracy, our elected representatives do work for us. That is virtually the meaning of democracy. Any elected public official who blatantly rejects the wishes of their constituents deserves to be in danger of losing their job.
The fact that superdelegates have been used since 1968 has nothing to do with this. Maintaining the status quo is no excuse for a subversion of the democratic process.
Henhouse
(646 posts)How that applies to how the Democratic party selects it's nominee is beyond me....
0rganism
(23,977 posts)> How "small d democracy" applies to how the Democratic party selects it's nominee is beyond me....
imho, it should not be some goddam mystery, wrapped in enigma, wrapped in arcane dogma.
setting aside any ethical concerns associated with representing "small d democracy", superdelegates who currently hold elected offices (whether statewide or district-level) would be fools not to consider the ramifications of going against their constituency's choice of nominee.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)and are not elected officials, in my mind this is a very serious problem and I would love to see how many that go against the voters in the states they represent, only represent corporate interests as a job.
http://truthinmedia.com/reality-check-lobbyist-superdelegates-bigger-vote/
0rganism
(23,977 posts)and just looking particularly at those superdelegates who currently hold elected office in some capacity.
i'd think such corporate lobbyist superdelegates wouldn't be amenable to external persuasion anyway -- not by vote, not by petition.
perhaps that's a "good thing" from certain points of view. like if you thought your party was being overrun by dangerous demagoguery, you might want superdelegates around to oppose an otherwise popular candidate on grounds of some core principle. the Republicans are probably pissed at themselves right now for not having a system like that in place this year.
no question though -- if this Democratic primary is decided by superdelegates against the will of the primary voters and caucus participants, it's essentially sacrificing what's otherwise shaping up to be a Democratic landslide in November.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)It is because of the misuse that it will likely damage the party irreparably, Now we have DWS on record assuming they are to suppress grassroots Democrats and the support and new members such candidates would bring into the party, since Sanders is a clean politician, with his most extreme of views sounding more like FDR than anything else, I feel they are making a grave error here.
0rganism
(23,977 posts)they do have a history of supporting the final pledged delegate leader at the convention, which isn't for a while yet. superdelegates supported McGovern in '72 and Carter in '76, back when the system was fresh. they supported Obama in '08. they may not be supporting the winners of state delegates at this stage, but that really isn't their role.
the DWS comment is damning on its face, but we could probably cut her some slack in that "grassroots movements" might mean something very different to a Jew living in Florida.
a lot of things just won't be settled until the convention; i think we are not too far away from unification regardless of which candidate ends up as the nominee. gaffes from DWS won't help, but a solid speech from president Obama likely will.
strategery blunder
(4,225 posts)If Hillary can make it past California and still be ahead in pledged delegates with nowhere else for Bernie to go, WA's superdelegates have a viable reason to stay where they're at now.
Earlier in the primary, I argued that if Bernie goes into the convention and the supers give it to Hillary anyway, there's gonna be hell to pay a la 1968.
However, even though I caucused for Bernie yesterday and view Hillary as Nixon-lite, I'm NOT a hypocrite (and even Nixon had some redeeming qualities, ironically the creation of the EPA was signed by him).
If California wants to give Bernie another blowout and Bernie pulls ahead in pledged delegates, that's when I start writing my office-holding supers to let them know that recreating 1968 is a bad idea.
DemocracyDirect
(708 posts)I do have a concern that if the difference is less than 50 delegates and particularly if less than 30 for Hillary, there may be some very vocal outrage...
... especially in light of some unusual things happening at some primaries and caucuses.
I would be fine if New York and California speak decisively either way.
LiberalFighter
(51,210 posts)State Central Committee which is represented by chairs and vice chairs of each congressional district. Those "lobbyists" which are Democratic Party activists that have been active in the State Party are DNC members representing the state at the DNC.
The general population does not get to decide the rules for the DNC or RNC.
If you are not involved in your local Democratic Party as a precinct person or county officer you don't have a voice. The precinct officers elect the county officers, the county officers elect the district officers and the district officers elect the state officers. Each level decides how they will operate their organization.
Time for change
(13,718 posts)Superdelegates essentially have a lot more voting power than ordinary people. Hundreds or thousands of people vote to select a single delegate. Superdelegates are simply picked by the DNC to be a delegate. It defies the one person one vote principle of democracy. If you don't understand that, I'm sorry.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)The will of the people in the states they represent, them now revealing that their votes are for sale AGAINST those they represent, I see a 1968 redux in the making. The people that voted in what they were led to believe was a fair primary learning that their votes are meaningless compared to votes for sale will have the effect of tearing the party apart.
Henhouse
(646 posts)I'm almost 60 years old and a life long democratic. The superdelegates are, and have always been free to vote for whoever they choose.....
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)You are correct however that they were put in place for such a time as the party decided to cheat the people, I imagine the test of their not cheating the people has to do with money in this day and age, and money rather than the people they are supposed to represent is now their only true allegiance..
Mike__M
(1,052 posts)that they'll need the voters to re-elect them if they want to keep their positions.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)they are there to exercise independent judgment as long-term stake holders in the party. Not to be pushed around by a bunch of aroused and entitled millennials with no real stake in the party who think that can just stomp their feet and get their way.
MisterP
(23,730 posts)at least you could have SOME access to Politburo and Partkom members in the USSR: heck, Yeltsin even toppled off bridges and blamed the KGB; the government's literally falling into your boat!
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)In the United States the right to petition is guaranteed by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which specifically prohibits Congress from abridging "the right of the people...to petition the Government for a redress of grievances".
Although often overlooked in favor of other more famous freedoms, and sometimes taken for granted,[1] many other civil liberties are enforceable against the government only by exercising this basic right.[2] The right to petition is regarded as fundamental in some republics, such as the United States, as a means of protecting public participation in government.[1]
American right of petition is derived from British precedent. In Blackstone's Commentaries, Americans in the Thirteen Colonies read that "the right of petitioning the king, or either house of parliament, for the redress of grievances" was a "right appertaining to every individual".[3]
In 1776, the Declaration of Independence cited King George's perceived failure to redress the grievances listed in colonial petitions, such as the Olive Branch Petition of 1775, as a justification to declare independence:
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people
Henhouse
(646 posts)The DNC is not the government....
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)you got a problem with petitions?
Henhouse
(646 posts)but I don't go around telling people I have a constitutionally protected right to demand the DNC respond to them...
LiberalFighter
(51,210 posts)There wouldn't be primaries or caucuses. They would had decided already who the nominee would be.
There wouldn't be county, district, and state parties with control over their own area.
The United States government does not control how political parties beyond what is already in place.
PearliePoo2
(7,768 posts)Now at 20,526!
hack89
(39,171 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)"Clout" happens when you win something. "Clout" happens when thousands of people support a particular idea.
Now "Clout" can be subverted by money or favors, but that tends to have bad optics, particularly when it is noticed far and wide by the public, who are the people you are trying to gain "Clout" with in the first place.
I hope that helps.
hack89
(39,171 posts)not with only two candidates. One of them will win with pledged delegates alone.
Time for change
(13,718 posts)The fact that there are only two candidates doesn't change that. If the superdelegates give 400-600 votes to Clinton above what they give to Sanders, that means that Sanders will have to make that up among the elected delegates, a tremendously difficult task. They very well may be a huge factor if they don't support the will of the voter whom they are supposed to represent.
FlatBaroque
(3,160 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)read about here today
FreakinDJ
(17,644 posts)Seriously get with the program
DrDan
(20,411 posts)Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)Fairgo
(1,571 posts)Says all you need to know.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,375 posts)On Sun Mar 27, 2016, 10:18 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
more demands/threats from berniebros . . . not unlike the caucus demands via bullying we have
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1587940
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
load of shit.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Mar 27, 2016, 10:26 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "load of shit"? Alerter, you are claiming "load of shit" as your reason for alerting?
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: beriebros is meant to be insulting. hide it.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Alerted on this? sigh
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Alerter used vulgar language in his alert comment. So I can't justify hiding a post because the alerter cannot keep civil.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The alerter's comment was not well thought out. Let's leave it.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
SaschaHM
(2,897 posts)are DNC officials. 460 to be exact. They're chosen by the party, not independents. Take WA, for example, only 8 or the 17 are actually at risk of losing their job and even that has caveats.
I'm also not sure that this doesn't benefit Hillary more in the long run. She's winning bigger states with more super delegates. They split the delegates evenly in IL, but if we abide by this petition, then she gains 26 more delegates. Some of those will have to switch if Bernie wants the nomination and if we're building in this rule where super delegates act like pledged delegates and stick with the nominee, then you're giving Hillary Clinton, as of this moment, 260 more delegates and Sanders 134 more delegates. That leaves him worse off than he was yesterday. People might want to wait until after Apr26th to start going down this hole because if she cleans up in NY, PA, MD, and DE, that's 98 more delegates added on to whatever margin of victory that she has.
Henhouse
(646 posts)Time for change
(13,718 posts)by a small margin. I'm suggesting that there should represent the will of the people to the extent that the voters in their state voted. Thus, in Illinois they should be fairly evenly split in order to represent the will of the people of their state.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)We have become a party without principle, or small d Democratic standards and as such a house of cards destined to crumble under an unequal weight of gravity at the top of such a pyramid.
After 38 years as a registered and voting Democrat, my party affiliation was changed by the party establishment, and I tried to rectify the tampering by re-registering again as a Democrat only to find that the NYS part of the party establishment will not recognize my correction until after this November. They kicked me out of the party, I did not leave, and since I cannot vote in the Primary for Sanders, I will vote my Primary preference for him in the GE and re-register again as the non Democratic voter they appear they want me to be when they changed my party affiliation without my consent or knowledge.
I doubt I am alone, and the once much larger party, that now only sports 30% of the population, I expect will drop down to 25% or less after this blatantly Rovian primary and it's successful attempts at party disenfranchisement.
They are determined it would appear to lose the GE at all cost just to promote a dishonest and corrupt favorite of the establishment preferred candidate.
snowy owl
(2,145 posts)Both superdelegates for Clinton.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)Should respect the majority of the voters.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)So much rhetoric, so much incorrect info floating out there. So many forgetting the DNC is not a government organization and they make the rules of how they pick the representative candidate. They can change this rules too. If SuperDelegates always matched a popular vote...then what would be the point of SuperDelegates? The SD purpose is to represent the desire of the DNC not the polling public. People need to realize that in the end, these votes are a poll.
Time for change
(13,718 posts)then they should be replaced by a Party that does care.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Are you stating that the DNC is ignoring the will of a majority of the people that are registered as Dems? Are they supposed to represent the will of indies in the primaries?
Time for change
(13,718 posts)Independents deserve to be represented by our government just as much as anyone else.
Sometimes they get that privilege through voting in open primaries, and sometimes they get it by changing their party affiliation to Dem or Rep to vote in a closed primary. That is their legal and their moral right.
This is legally allowed because the two parties recognize that they need the support of independents in order to win elections. If and when they fail to do that, then it is time to replace them with a Party that will recognize their right to be represented.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Indies will have to settle for a nominee that aligns with DNC or RNC goals. I suppose Indies always have the option of voting for one of the dozens of other POTUS hopefuls that are not associated with RNC or DNC. But there is absolutly no obligation for those two major parties to pick any candidate that doesn't promote the goals of the party in favor of a candidate that appears to assuage the changing whims of the independent voter. Both parties woo them, but woo them to align as a Dem or a Rep.
As for the will of the voter.....it's definitely taken into consideration, but isn't the final call. If you will just take a moment and see the disarray going on in the RNC, they don't seems to be in alignment with a majority of their constituency. This is a working, breathing example of how Primaries do not necessarily reflect the will of the party.
felix_numinous
(5,198 posts)Delegates have to represent the constituency, that is also my understanding.
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)Now that there is so very much money changing hands and a candidate calling in a chance for redemption on her enemies list used to harm their "enemies" politically, the curtain has finally been drawn back.
We finally get to see the lie it has been until they now, as they have decided it was in everyone's best interest financially or politically within a corrupted party establishment to use it to cheat as it was designed to do if ever a candidate became popular that failed to be corrupt enough to suit their needs.
felix_numinous
(5,198 posts)is to obtain representation, and we have so much work to do.
iandhr
(6,852 posts)So some of the supers can legitimately claim the are representing the will of the people by supporting Hillary.
This is the case where "will of the people" can be a subjective.
Bernie wins Washington but HRC is winning nationally.
Vinca
(50,320 posts)will of the people in Florida. Bottom line, it sure appears the candidate will be chosen by the party bosses and the rank and file voters are only useful in creating a stage setting for a democratic charade.
Time for change
(13,718 posts)It should also be kept in mind that that lead applies only to Democratic voters. Bernie has much wider appeal and would beat her easily in national polls that included all voters. Only a minority of voters are Democrats, and other voters are going to play a huge role in the GE.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Time for change
(13,718 posts)Hillary out of porportion to how their constituents voted for her.
Uncle Joe
(58,474 posts)Thanks for the thread, Time for change.
snowy owl
(2,145 posts)The parties are closed organizations. They can do what they want. Lots of superdelegates did change their commitments in 2008 from Hillary to Obama. So of course they can. But Bernie is different. He wants to upend the establishment Not so Obama. Politics have been dirty probably since the beginning and the people sold a bill of goods basically. Now that it really matters, we may be helpless to make all the changes and adjustments we need. If people would support the Green party, that would be a start. that would have been a start a long, long time ago. Not because I think the Greens are the answer but because I know the democrats and republicans are definitely not the answers.
But it is what it is. And all the complaints and whines aren't going to change it. You have to be willing to risk something very different.
Time for change
(13,718 posts)It depends on how many complaints there are and how the targets of the complaints perceive the threats to themselves for not addressing them adequately.
snowy owl
(2,145 posts)What is the threat?
snowy owl
(2,145 posts)Just another consideration for the superdelegates. There should not be anybody with an extra vote. It amounts to intimidation and bribery.
Time for change
(13,718 posts)Tarc
(10,478 posts)This is not how the party works.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)....and realize those rules are prepared ahead of time, all candidates are aware of the rules when they decide to run. Rules are not subject to change midway through an election, at the whim of whiny indies or anyone else that can't figure it out.
Sure change the rules, but every candidate has a strategy based on the current rules, no one should be subject to the whims of those that simply don't understand those rules.
Time for change
(13,718 posts)their constituents.
Maybe you need to understand the rules a little bit better.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)Candidate strategies are not based on whether SD's vote in the same manner as a State popular vote. If we were going to change it, why not use a national standard for a majority, since that is what will be important in the GE?
I understand why you would like to change it, and I honestly don't care if you and you cohorts are able to sway a delegate to change their vote based on some merit that Bernie has that they hadn't previously considered. But to imply they MUST vote a certain way because of some new manufactured rule, well you are just barking up the wrong tree.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)It's ridiculous to have a system that is so complicated. There should be one primary date, the same across the country, and they should either go by popular vote, or use something similar to the electoral map for general elections.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)How convenient for them.
Whatever your feelings are about Superdelegates, the middle of a primary contest is not when you should be changing the delegate rules.
So what do these supports feel should happen with the Superdelegates? Should 72.7% of them (12) be pledged to Sanders? Or all of them (17)?
Time for change
(13,718 posts)The rules do not say that superdelegates cannot change their minds prior to the convention.
SFnomad
(3,473 posts)The OP says that supporters demand Superdelegates "respect the wishes of their constituents", which were not the superdelegate rules when the voting began. Again, I'll ask, why should the superdelegate rules be changed in the middle of the contest?
pampango
(24,692 posts)the wishes of primary voters in all states and decide that they - the superdelegates, the establishment - know better than the voters who should be our candidate. And that is true whether Hillary or Bernie has more votes/delegates then the establishment picks the other one.
If we are going to disrespect primary voters and depend on the establishment to pick our candidate based on polls and their opinion of who has the best chance to beat the republican candidate, we can do away with the primary process and just let he superdelegates to their magic. I want Bernie to win but not if he has fewer votes/delegates and the establishment puts him over the top.