2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHere's a taste of how the GOP would run against Sanders
in the General election:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/28/when-bernie-sanders-thought-castro-and-the-sandinistas-could-teach-america-a-lesson.html
Anyone who doesn't think this would be highly effective in turning many Americans off does not understand the country we live in.
jfern
(5,204 posts)The Iran Contra scandal was about terrible US foreign policy involving the Sandinistas. And he's not friends with Henry Kissinger.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)Good luck explaining the esoteric difference to the American voters.
jfern
(5,204 posts)trillion
(1,859 posts)Listen to yourself.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)you have no idea what you're in for if it's Hillary v Trump...
it'll be a scandal a day, in the national media, with Hillary's campaign trying to lecture people that there's no definitive evidence of any wrongdoing...
it'll be Bill saying all the stupid crap he's been saying, on repeat, when he's not being accused of rape and infidelity
it'll be all of her very very very sketchy business dealings dragged under a microscope... and a lot of them don't withstand scrutiny..
it'll be her endless flip flops on a loop on tv ads across the nation
and that's just the first few weeks...
Sane people don't trust her... her poll numbers won't be going up...
get ready for President Trump
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)be this part of the GOP's rather obvious hits on Bernie Sanders.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)But you've literally posted the only attack they can make. He's a communist.
But Americans have a favorable opinion of him and think he's... Gasp!... Honest. The polling shows that Democrats prefer socialism to capitalism now.
And Bernie is not a one person scandal machine who millions and millions think is dishonest and corrupt.
And of course Trump can run from the left and right of Clinton.
Who:
- wants to get rid of super pacs
- talks endlessly about money corrupting government
- supports universal health care
- was against the Iraq war
- was against bombing libya
Not Clinton.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)attacks like this one have not permeated throughout the country yet. There's a reason Rove is salivating for a Sanders win.
EdwardBernays
(3,343 posts)you'll see Rove is doing everything he can to defeat Trump... if you think he's stumping for Sanders because you think he wants Trump you're out of touch with reality.
In addition to that, people HAVE been calling sanders a Socialist in the mainstream media for months and months and months... you're just living in the 80s if you think that anyone that likes what he says is going to vote against him because Trump calls him a communist.
On the OTHER hand, most Americans DON'T know all the things about Clinton's corrupt behaviour... they don't trust her already, and as they start to find out the laundry list of bad crap she's been involved in she will sink like a stone... on top of which her endless legal troubles will be on the news every night...
It's gonna be a blood bath... and it will be the fault of the cult of personality that surrounds Clinton.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)GreatGazoo
(3,937 posts)It is not like he has never run against Red Baiting before. He is the master of that game.
beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)to do what it takes to safeguard america and americans...the television adds would be succinct and to the point.....there is nothing the same machine can throw at hillary that they haven't thrown at her over the past 30yrs....and the up side, would be to motivate more democrats to get off their collective asses and vote....conservatives don't win elections when democrats get out the vote...
don't get me wrong I have enjoyed sanders since day one watching his speeches on CSPN, he speaks from the heart and brings the issues to the forefront that separates conservatives from us clearly and his challenge to hillary in the primaries is a great thing so america can see the differences between what we stand for and what the conservatives stand for
krispos42
(49,445 posts)... You know, the guy that risked his life dodging STDs stateside during Vietnam.
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)beat a war hero in 2004. It's not about truth; it's about strutting around in flight suits or talking tough.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Unfortunately
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)GreatGazoo
(3,937 posts)Dean was the only one running against the Iraq War. Kerry did not highlight his differences with Bush, might as well have been Jeb.
We lost by trying to out Republican Republicans. Sound familiar?
Response to GreatGazoo (Reply #46)
ToxMarz This message was self-deleted by its author.
griloco
(832 posts)in combat during his "vietnam"
if he would be displaying his
Purple Schlong" medal
at these debates
krispos42
(49,445 posts)RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)or even served. As far as I know, that number is ZERO.
FangedNoumenom
(145 posts)Benghazi
Private Email Server
Goldman Sachs speaking fees
Whitewater
Travelgate
Troopergate
Filegate
Pardongate
Sniper fire in Bosnia
Questionable profits from selling cattle futures
Vince Foster
Clinton Foundation conflicts of interest
Furnituregate
Gifts from King of Morocco
Haiti mining contracts for her brother
Sydney Blumenthal
Saul Alinsky
Lanny Davis
Peter Franklin Paul
Campaign funds from Iran
Uranium to Russia
IRS audits
The Honduran Coup
Libya
The list goes on.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)like this.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)In any case, we should stop being so afraid of what the Repugs might throw at our candidates. They will throw their mud at whoever our nominee is.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)like this is highly effective,that's why it's done. It's naive to believe otherwise,the points made in the article would be enough to lose Florida and that's just one example.
Ford_Prefect
(7,895 posts)If you do not think that Bill back in the white house is an image for the GOP to play with then you underestimate the appetite of the voters for scandal of any kind. Without reference to the specifics (none need apply) if there is anyone the GOP hates as much as Hillary it is Bill.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)He's gone on to be a massively popular ex president. They've already thrown the kitchen sink at him,they haven't even started with Sanders.
Ford_Prefect
(7,895 posts)Whether democratic voters turn out in numbers large enough to counter the GOP efforts to subvert and interfere with the vote is going to be the point. The so-called swing vote doesn't exist as we have been lead to believe in the myth. GOTV efforts proved that.
trillion
(1,859 posts)this Hillary supporter has no argument.
Bernie will always quickly and concisely qualify his words. Trump has no depth to defend what he says but will sink to name calling and outrageous proclamations - he will make the broke country of Mexico build a continent wide wall and pay for it... cuckoo cuckoo
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)By calling them on the lies that come from the folks who tell this shit.
djean111
(14,255 posts)cascadiance
(19,537 posts)In my return from DC a couple of weeks ago, I took a cab to the airport. The driver, an immigrant from Uganda, was quite talkative, and is passionate about politics. He even tested me on my knowledge, with questions like Which president signed into law the repeal of Glass-Stegall?, and was delighted when I gave him the correct answers.
Hes a Bernie supporter, and he went on at length about what he views as the corruption of Hillary Clinton. Typical rant: How does she expect us to believe that her taking $600,000 for a speech on Wall Street wouldnt affect what she would do as president? Does she really take us for fools?
Of course, as a black man, he had equal contempt for black leaders who are supporting Clinton. I must say I cant blame him. What has Clinton done proactively that is specifically aimed at improving the lot of African-Americans? Nothing, as far as I know. I am not aware of anything Bernie Sanders has done in the Senate specifically on the black issue either, but he has a lifetime of working to support the poor and the working class, and that should qualify. And, in case it matters, as a college student, Sanders was active in the civil rights movement whereas Hillary, at that age, was a Republican. If African-Americans want to judge a candidate purely on race which I think is too narrow, but just if then the exhortations of the black leaders to vote for Hillary makes no sense, and one must wonder about their judgment processes.
What will surprise, even revulse, those of you readers who are in the press or the establishment political world but will make perfect sense to those of you outside of those realms is that the above-mentioned cabbie also likes Donald Trump. Its a great example of the validity of the comments of Senator Jeff Sessions to Breitbart, among which was It looks like working people who may have been voting for Democrats voted for Trump in huge numbers.
...
I've also noted that the same equation was happening where ex-Disney employees exploited by the H-1B program that Hillary Clinton is on record for supporting, have just in congress been brought to testify on this by Republicans in the House this week and are on record endorsing Trump too.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=1356732
Do Clinton and the corporate Democrats that support her want be known as the ANTI-LABOR candidate that brought down the Democratic Party in this election? Because I think that just might happen the way things are going now. It doesn't really matter whether Trump is legitimately trying to work for labor or not. It is perceived that he is working for us, but it is most definitely perceived that Hillary is working against us, especially when she takes a lot of lobbyist money from companies like Tata and Infosys that want legislation to work against the interests of American workers.
http://freebeacon.com/politics/outsourcing-clinton-allies-accused-of-abusing-visa-system/
The Department of Labor announced on Thursday it was investigating Tata Consultancy Services and Infosys for allegedly forcing American IT workers to train foreign workers before being laid off. Some of those employees allege that their employers replaced them with the immigrants who were in the country on temporary visas.
The Labor Department is investigating whether or not the companies abused the H-1B program, which grants temporary visas to fill highly-skilled jobs that employers claim are not adequately filled by American workers. The law requires that companies take good faith steps to recruit U.S. workers and has not displaced a U.S. worker at the time of filing an H-1B visa petition, according to the department.
The investigation was announced on Thursday by a bipartisan group of senators.
...
If Clinton and the corporatist Democrats who have been manipulating this election for her lose to Trump, even if they lose when Trump makes false promises to counter the clear case that Clinton is working against American workers' interests, the Democratic Party will lose support from Unions after this election, and one of it's main raisons d'etre.
A lot of those union leadership folk who endorsed Clinton without taking in a vote of their union memberships will also likely be thrown out too, when they will have correctly perceived that she's screwed them!
trillion
(1,859 posts)giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)FangedNoumenom
(145 posts)That's not going to keep someone like Trump from using them against her.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)HillareeeHillaraah
(685 posts)You should really see a doctor about that wicked case of republicanism flaring up there....does it hurt? You seem like you're in pain? Enough bed rest and you should be better by Tuesday. Super Tuesday....
You should drink plenty of fluids too, here have some KoolAid
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Ford_Prefect
(7,895 posts)Sadly most GOP voters agree with her on that version of foreign policy by aerial bombardment. Bomb them into the stone-age once again!
Lightning war to the front!
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)In a Sanders nomination scenario, the Republican nominee will have access to a billion dollars with another billion dollars in outside PAC support. You wouldn't be able to turn your television on in the summer and fall without hearing that Bernie is a Socialist who's weak on national defense.
Bernie, with his $27 donations, wouldn't be able to adequately respond. That would be devastating. Our disgust with Citizens United aside, it represents the current rules of the road. The eventual nominee better be willing to compete in the context of that reality or prepare to lose badly.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)Many folks have cut that cord years ago. And I do not think that the RepubliCLOWNs have come to speed on this.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)So much so that they created the environment for a Trump to flourish. Due to rapidly changing demographics, they know the Legislative Branch will not allow them to force their agenda down our throats. The Judicial Branch is now their main reason for existing. They will spend historical amounts of money to wrest control of it. THIS IS NOT THE ELECTION TO BE SELF RIGHTEOUS ABOUT MONEY. They will bury us if we do and Citizens United will be the law of the land for a generation.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)As a matter of fact, I have heard tRump say, as much as I cannot stand the asshole, that money has too much leverage in politics. This is one of the reasons why the Establishment RepubliCLOWNs are so much against him, and even Yertle the Turtle has said that he would work for Hillary if tRump got the nomination.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)A Trump aide is in the news just this morning admitting that they are seeking large donors for the general. Independent PACS alone will spend a billion trying to keep the Supreme Court leaning Right. The SC is the whole ball game on the Right.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)that Clinton will not put some corporatist on the Supremes Court? Her previous record tells me that she will do just that. Her speeches at financial firms for hundreds of thousands of dollars tell me that.
If we want an end to this shit, we have one option: Bernie Sanders for President in 2016!
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)What we positively know is that Republicans will demand that a Republican President replace Scalia with another Scalia. A center-Left candidate will be necessary to win confirmation be it Obama, Clinton or Sanders making that nomination. I'll take that over another Scalia any day.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)She is a right wing corporatist. She shall therefore nominate a corporatist. Do not believe her promises. She has been known to go against them in the past, she shall go against them in the future.
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)passion for Bernie to unnecessarily reach for hyperbole with all things Hillary. Many Bernie supporters call President Obama a corporatist and I am very pleased with his two Supreme Court choices.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)I will believe what I see with my own two eyes.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... it's foolish and will guarantee a loss against the well funded GOP.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)Just askin'.
A Simple Game
(9,214 posts)and all of the donors with their 2700 dollar checks won't support Bernie if he is the nominee? Where is their party loyalty? Why don't you want to support whoever is the party nominee? Do you really want to see a Trump Presidency?
But more to the point, if Bernie wins the nomination the way he is now running his campaign, why wouldn't you believe he can win the general using the same formula?
Trust Buster
(7,299 posts)I'm saying that $2,700 is chump change compared to what the Right will throw into their efforts to control the Supreme Court. All their eggs are in that SC basket. I'm saying that they will be able to destroy Bernie and his message if he does not have similar resources to respond.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)oh08dem
(339 posts)and as an added bonus Hillary also has the "New World Order" conspiracy nuts going ape-shit over her...
My source: Me being a liberal in John Boehner's old district.
sarge43
(28,941 posts)the Repugs will use every dirty trick and lie against either of our candidates.
Use to be Democrats relished the battle and returned the favor with interest.
PeaceNikki
(27,985 posts)ever be able to handle actual attacks.
shawn703
(2,702 posts)I tried giving the article the amount is attention that would be paid to it by the average voter. Not quite as effective as you'd think.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)with long winded articles.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)GreatGazoo
(3,937 posts)I have heard from Hillary supporters that "Sanders wants to do things the GOP won't like." That implies something about Hillary.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2016
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)Vinca
(50,270 posts)Or, should I say, the Clintons because they'll both be under scrutiny. I wonder if Trump has bought the blue dress yet. My advice to Hillary supporters is to stop worrying about Bernie because you have a much bigger problem on your agenda. It seems most likely Hillary will be the nominee. What doesn't seem most likely is that she'll be able to generate much of a turnout. That's something to worry about.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)the Sandinistas or Castro's revolution in Cuba.
And besides, it's all been said about Hillary a thousand times. It's already baked into her market price as it were.
With Sanders, he would just be eviscerated. The only reason he hasn't been so far, is that (a) Hilllary needs his supporters and doesn't want to alienate them and wants to defeat him without going nuclear on him and (b) the Republicans have no reason whatsoever to attack Sanders now.
kennetha
(3,666 posts)Only because she needs his voters and has been hoping to defeat him without lowering the boom. It's sort of the same strategy Trumps opponents have been pursuing basically. Only in Hillary's case it is working and in the Republucan case it hasn't been.
yardwork
(61,607 posts)The vast majority of Americans have a visceral fear of communism. This is especially true among middle aged and older Americans who were raised during the Cold War.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... that was what was used to fuel the Koch empire after WWII, which subsequently has been used to push Republican candidates, and to help build the DLC and corporatist Democrats with the Clinton's help?
Bernie may be a "socialist" taking a lot of individual contributions from AMERICANS! But he hasn't been getting as much "commie" Stalin/Koch money as those who he runs against as Republicans and corporate Democrats have taken in.
yardwork
(61,607 posts)cascadiance
(19,537 posts)RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)I am a middle aged American, and have many friends my age who are not afraid of communism, or socialism. We are afraid of capitalism, and the takeover of American government by lobbyists and corporations, and are working to change that as best we can.
We have one great weapon against the corporate takeover. That is Bernie Sanders for president in 2016.
bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)yardwork
(61,607 posts)I know that Bernie is not a communist. I'm not in fear, either.
Please reread my post and think about this in terms of an election that has to be won. Thank you.
monicaangela
(1,508 posts)drray23
(7,627 posts)If this is accurate this is really damming. I am amazed he did not even end up having troubles with the law. Openly defending crackdown on the press by the sandinistas for example is in itself incredible.
TDale313
(7,820 posts)If you don't think they're gonna be effective attacking Hillary with 25 years of oppo research- or that we've really already seen their worst, I think you're wrong. They'll be brutal to either. Frankly, the Red Menace stuff doesn't have nearly the impact on those under 50.
I believe Sanders has the best chance in the general. I think he's a better matchup against Trump. And I think he'd make a better President.
Gothmog
(145,218 posts)The attack ads from this appearance on Meet the Press write themselves https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/10/12/why-bernie-sanders-isnt-going-to-be-president-in-5-words/
Meet the Press ✔ @meetthepress
CHUCK TODD: Are you a capitalist?@BernieSanders: No. I'm a Democratic Socialist.
8:33 AM - 11 Oct 2015
And, in those five words, Sanders showed why no matter how much energy there is for him on the liberal left he isn't getting elected president.
Why? Because Democrat or Republican (or independent), capitalism remains a pretty popular concept especially when compared to socialism. A 2011 Pew Research Center survey showed that 50 percent of people had a favorable view of capitalism, while 40 percent had an unfavorable one. Of socialism, just three in 10 had a positive opinion, while 61 percent saw it in a negative light.
Wrote Pew in a memo analyzing the results:
Of these terms, socialism is the more politically polarizing the reaction is almost universally negative among conservatives, while generally positive among liberals. While there are substantial differences in how liberals and conservatives think of capitalism, the gaps are far narrower.
...The simple political fact is that if Sanders did ever manage to win the Democratic presidential nomination a long shot but far from a no shot at this point Republicans would simply clip Sanders's answer to Todd above and put it in a 30-second TV ad. That would, almost certainly, be the end of Sanders's viability in a general election.
Americans might be increasingly aware of the economic inequality in the country and increasingly suspicious of so-called vulture capitalism all of which has helped fuel Sanders's rise. But we are not electing someone who is an avowed socialist to the nation's top political job. Just ain't happening.
You can try to argue that the two terms are not the same but that will not stop the Kochs from running $200 milion to $300 million using that term in negative ads that would be very effective.
krawhitham
(4,644 posts)+ Benghazi
+ Private Email Server
+ Goldman Sachs Speaking Fees
+ Whitewater
+ Health-Care Gate
+ Troopergate
+ Travelgate
+ Filegate
+ Pardongate
+ Mishandling of Classified Emails
+ Lied About Sniper Fire in Bosnia
+ Questionable Profits from Selling Cattle Futures
+ Vince Foster
+ Support of DOMA
+ Support of Dont Ask Dont Tell
+ Questionable Use of Clinton Foundation Donations
+ Clinton Foundation Conflicts of Interest
+ Clinton Foundation Tax Returns
+ Took Furniture from White House
+ Did Not Declare Gifts from King of Morocco
+ Used Influence to have Brother Appointed to Haiti Mining Company
+ Campaigns of Intimidation Against Opponents
+ Sidney Blumenthal Advice
+ Connection to Radical Saul Alinsky
+ Pressured Huma Abedin to Divorce Anthony Weiner
+ Connection to Peter Franklin Paul
+ Missing Law Firm Billing Records
+ Conflicts of Interest in Foggy Bottom
+ Received Campaign Funds from Iranian Government
+ Sale of Uranium to Russia in Exchange for Donations
+ IRS Audits Against Conservative Groups
gordianot
(15,237 posts)Sanders does have old Marxist Leninist flirtations to empower red baiting. He should be able to distance such concerns. I find Hillary's corporate buy in and support of MIC more than troubling. The lousy corporatist trade deals are a real threat. The GOP is in the realm of pure fascism. Deadlock, demagoguery, we will get the government we deserve.
bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)gordianot
(15,237 posts)I made only one Republican vote in 45 years.
Rebkeh
(2,450 posts)a shrinking portion of the electorate, and maybe some immigrants. The majority of democrats and some independents no longer care about the "communist" distortion (Thanks, Obama) and many millenials (the growing portion) have a favorable opinion of socialism.
It's not a very strong argument.
Bleacher Creature
(11,256 posts)It really is a must read.
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/berned-up
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)talk about it.