2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumNevada was a devastating blow to Sanders; Dolores Huerta a perfect representation of his failure
from Amanda Marcotte at Salon:
Dolores Huerta takes on Bernies base: Nevada caucus flap speaks volumes about the frustrations of Sanders supporters
___Things are tense right now because the Nevada loss is starting to look like a devastating blow to the Sanders campaign. From the beginning, the biggest obstacle to the Sanders campaign was convincing voters that this was about serious change instead of a bunch of privileged people posturing about how radical they are.
It seemed, until Saturday, that the campaign had a real shot at this. Sanders is an articulate candidate who sells his ideas well, and the improved poll numbers and real inroads with voters outside of the privileged white guy tent were heartening.
Unfortunately, Nevada showed that the inroads just werent enough. He lost among women, blacks, nonwhites, and self-described Democrats, Charles Blow of The New York Times writes. Early reports that Sanders had outperformed Clinton with Latino voters proved unlikely, as caucus results show that Clinton won the more Latino-heavy precincts. The Sanders message of economic populism is not resonating with people of color, women, or union workers the very people you need to convince people your campaign is a serious one and not the electoral equivalent of the white guy in dreads wearing the Che shirt playing guitar in the quad.
Under the circumstances, its understandable why Sanders supporters would be a bit touchy about Dolores Huerta accusing them of disrespect. Huerta sits right at the intersection of three demographics labor, women, people of color that the Sanders campaign needed, and failed, to win over in order to convincingly argue that this is a real political revolution instead of a social signaling opportunity for people who want to be seen as radical.
So its easy to see why Sanders supporters want to yell at Huerta. Shes an easy punching bag for those frustrated with voters they believe should vote for Sanders but stubbornly refuse to do what Sanders supporters want them to do. (Its similar to way that older female Clinton supporters have gotten bossy with younger women who vote Sanders.) Painting Huerta as delusional, corrupt or a liar makes the loss of these voting blocs easier to swallow, because the alternative possibility, that Clinton voters know what they are doing, is too painful to contemplate.
read more: http://www.salon.com/2016/02/22/dolores_huerta_takes_on_bernies_base_nevada_caucus_flap_speaks_volumes_about_the_frustrations_of_sanders_supporters/
yourpaljoey
(2,166 posts)bigtree
(85,996 posts)..there, got it.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)though. It was a setback to people who hoped to keep up the momentum longer than is now likely, because he did have a real chance in Nevada. Given that continued criticism of Hillary from a competitor is not in our interest now, though, it's probably best that his campaign fades fast.
However, I still feel that he has done our nation a great service by revealing stronger support for progressive, liberal solutions than realized.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)The abundance of thought you put into your response shows the respect you have for our community.
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)bigtree
(85,996 posts)...well-written and worth the read.
Logical
(22,457 posts)RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)bovine fecal matter to me.
nc4bo
(17,651 posts)Well, I disagree and Nevada was a super scarey deal for Camp HRC to the point where they had to call in reenforcements with $$$$$ and call in some favors to staunch the bleeding.
We've got a loooooong way to go. Candidate Obama knew this and so does Camp Sanders.
Not going away anytime soon!
Bernie Sanders: "Do not underestimate me."
bigtree
(85,996 posts)Last edited Tue Feb 23, 2016, 11:59 AM - Edit history (3)
...some of the best their money could buy too, with Rove's American Crossroads honing in on Hillary in Nevada.
Outspent and still pulled off a win. That's organization. The kind that generates the support needed to win elections.
NYT:
Tad Devine, a senior adviser to Mr. Sanders, pointed to Mrs. Clintons support from a super PAC and her acceptance of donations from Wall Street executives.
She cannot be trusted to appoint someone to the Supreme Court who will take the issue of campaign finance seriously, he said.
Interestingly, the person most impacted by PAC money in this primary is Hillary Clinton. In addition to the money spent by Bernie supporters in the nursing union, there's unlimited cash directed against Hillary in this primary from conservative groups like American Crossroads.
Peter Sullivan ?@CitizenSullivan
Karl Rove's American Crossroads Super PAC is aiding Bernie Sanders in Nevada.
What's significant is how little of the money Hillary's raised has been spent in this Dem primary against her Democratic opponents. Also significant is the way the Sanders campaign has benefited from the republican expenditures against Hillary which, in some cases, match Bernie's own attack narrative.
NYT:
Mr. Sanders unlikely rise to super PAC pre-eminence is, in part, the story of an unusual alignment of strategies by different outside groups, including Republican ones eager to bloody Mrs. Clinton and lift Mr. Sanders, whom conservatives believe will be easier to defeat in a general election. While the nurses super PAC is the biggest left-leaning outside spender in the Democratic primary, conservative organizations have also spent at least $4.3 million attacking Mrs. Clinton in recent months.
One recent online ad from the Republican super PAC American Crossroads has assailed Mrs. Clinton for her Wall Street speaking fees echoing an argument Mr. Sanders often makes against her...
In fact, more super PAC money has been spent so far in express support of Mr. Sanders than for either of his Democratic rivals, including Hillary Clinton, according to Federal Election Commission records.
more: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/29/us/politics/bernie-sanders-is-democrats-top-beneficiary-of-outside-spending-like-it-or-not.html?_r=3
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)And they increasingly own most of the wealth, at least most of the "discretionary" income that can be spent on bullshit propaganda like this!
Is it right wing spin that Hillary HERSELF chooses not to say anything on whether she still supports anti worker "guest worker" programs that Donald Trump has and will sound like he's more on the side of labor than Hillary is, who is going against Democratic Party principles and not standing against the abusive practices towards foreign workers as well as working against American workers that these program represents.
Tata and Infosys have both successfully paid her enough to SHUT UP to help themselves over the interests of the American worker, and likely screw our party when she loses the populist vote in a general election if we let her get nominated for that!
Hillary is for sale! Bernie is not!
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)will buy some more time I guess, but not much.
mariawr
(348 posts)...and if he had half the help Clinton got in Clark Co (or wherever LV is) he'd have overtaken her.
pandr32
(11,582 posts)Obviously you are trying to make yourself feel better, but it wasn't Sanders who shaved that lead--it was Republican involvement. They certainly won't be wasting their money on Sanders support, or getting their people to show up and caucus for him anymore. They helped as best they could and Hillary still won.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)the bovine fecal matter 100 miles away with that comment.
So then tell me why Sanders has more donations to his campaign, and more money from supporters than Clinton.
Response to nc4bo (Reply #4)
stopbush This message was self-deleted by its author.
nc4bo
(17,651 posts)Response to nc4bo (Reply #4)
stopbush This message was self-deleted by its author.
gyroscope
(1,443 posts)this article is pure comedy.
bigtree
(85,996 posts)...and she looks to be achieving the majority of the black vote this time around.
The thrust of the article is that the Sanders camp has yet to make inroads with these two pivotal groups of voters. I thought the Huerta matter mirrors that failure and the article captures that thought perfectly.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Amirite?
morningfog
(18,115 posts)The delegates split. He's only down by one.
LexVegas
(6,060 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)Divide and conquer and stir up demographic resentment rather than unity. Worked for Rove and the GOP for many years.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)sealed Bernie's fate as we will see real soon!
Logical
(22,457 posts)forjusticethunders
(1,151 posts)One of the most privileged limousine "liberals" I've ever seen who uses, literally the embodiment of white feminism, is posting this garbage.
Please FUCKING proceed.
bigtree
(85,996 posts)Amanda Marcotte Monday, Feb 22, 2016 02:02 PM EST
...proceed o' new one.
mariawr
(348 posts)Posting lies together
jillan
(39,451 posts)Oh ya
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Her cheerleaders are just that, cheerleaders.
Can someone create one defensible argument as to why Hillary is a better choice than Bernie?
randome
(34,845 posts)People seem to think this election is about one person. It's not. Clinton's election means another army of Progressives will move into the White House, ensuring we stay in place for another 8-16 years. Sanders brings nothing but...himself. And that's not enough.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)cascadiance
(19,537 posts)Represents his definition of Democratic Party values far more than what the Koch brothers paid the DLC and the Clintons to warp them in to today!
So no! Your simple labeling game critique is NOT working!
He's cheering on Bernie to take on those damn economic royalists that Hillary worships so much today.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)That is when she puts on her white smock with the word "Progressive" and some bright red lipstick, then sells insurance.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Good enough right there for me!!!
coyote
(1,561 posts)That´s a reason to vote for her? You Clinton supporters are pure comedy. She is as far as she could possibly be from calling herself a Democrat.
Who cares about the issues...she´s got a (D) after her name. LOL!!!
On the Road
(20,783 posts)Hillary has by the far the handle on how to run the country both domestically and internationally. Whether you agree with her views is another, but she has a big edge in competence and experience.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)... and TPP gotten the American Worker?
NADA!!!!! Americans want change from THAT experience! Sorry! That shows experience in failure to do the right things for American workers.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)What domestic achievements demonstrate this ability?
What international achievements demonstrate this ability?
My answers include examples like her failure at health care reform in 1993 and her failure in the Iraq war vote, and then Libya and Syria as SoS.
Where's the examples of competence?
On the Road
(20,783 posts)both domestic and international. Most of the candidates don't give the impression they can run a gas station. But it's not just specific accomplishments -- Biden, for exmpale, is widely perceived to be knowledgable about international affairs despite his lack of resume points.
Whether something is a failure or achievement is partly a matter of perception. If Sanders gets elected and a Repulican congress defeats all his legislation, will you be calling him a failure?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Accomplishing what you say you want to do while you hold that job shows competence.
On the Road
(20,783 posts)or is there something Clinton tried unsuccessfully at State?
International relations are vital to the presidency, and she is the only candidate with this background. Can't understad trivializing it. It is a major difference between her and the other candidates.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Clinton was one of the people within the Obama administration pushing to depose Gaddafi. We did. It's now a failed state containing an ISIS stronghold.
Clinton repeatedly pushed for sending more arms to rebel troops in Syria. We did. Most of those arms are now in the hands of ISIS, a group she calls one of the largest threats to our country.
Clinton supported the coup in Honduras, and supported deporting undocumented children who fled the country due to violence. Many of those children are now confirmed to be dead.
Clinton repeatedly criticized the Obama administration after she stepped down as SoS for not sending more troops to Syria. She also criticized the Obama administration for pursuing the Iran deal.
With Clinton's time as SoS, it's harder to find successes than failures. That is not competence.
On the Road
(20,783 posts)does that mean Sanders would support the middle eastern dictators?
Libya might not be an international problem today if Qaddafi has been allowed to fire anti-aircraft weapons at the crowds in Benghazi and suppress the riots. Obama had a moral problem with that, as did much of the world.
I agree that Obama was hasty in calling for Assad's departure. The county is clearly in worse shape now. Was that Clinton's decision?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)that strengthens ISIS much worse than those dictators?
Hrm....head foreign policy advisor....called for even more direct intervention including boots-on-the-ground....golly I wonder if she had any influence.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)On the Road
(20,783 posts)Not really prepared to debate the details of the honesty issue.
RoccoR5955
(12,471 posts)Clinton abounds with that one. If it comes to making decisions, I do not want someone who has to "evolve," I want someone who makes the correct decision the first time, and has made the correct decision on many things over the long haul. This cannot be said of Clinton. Therefore she does not get my vote.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Was her vote for the IWR competent?
Was her handling of emails competent?
Was her decision to use racist attacks on Obama part of your calculus of the value of her experience?
Who has more experience in Washington, a person who has been fighting successfully for us since 1963 or someone who is constantly "evolving" since the mid-70s?
It is rather easy to show that her competence and experience are not actual positives for deciding to support her over Bernie.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)maybe those old politics might finally make way to a more unifying effort that Sanders represents.
hill2016
(1,772 posts)surprised salon published it at all
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,710 posts)redstateblues
(10,565 posts)I get tired of being told I'm stupid for supporting HRC. It kills BSS to know there are millions of intelligent voters who think Hillary would make a better President.
BuddhaGirl
(3,607 posts)I wonder what happens to this place when she wins the nomination...will the BSS support her?
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)The Sanders message of economic populism is not resonating with people of color, women, or union workers the very people you need to convince people your campaign is a serious one and not the electoral equivalent of the white guy in dreads wearing the Che shirt playing guitar in the quad.
Quoted for TRUTH!
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)REALLY?
Most like AFL-CIO have stood against them.
Most union "endorsements" come from coopted union leaders, not the general vote of those unions' memberships! When the membership votes for endorsements, they usually go to Bernie if at all.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)One post is railing and foaming at the mouth at "corrupt union bosses" and then the next claiming to be so concerned about the plight of the poor worker.
Your "concern" (in this thread anyway) is noted.
cascadiance
(19,537 posts)REALLY? Yes, there are also very corrupt Democratic Party politicians that borderline work like Republicans, and many great Democratic Politicians. Does that mean we don't like what the Democratic Party has traditionally been?
I'm not sure what post you are referring to, and don't have time to hunt for it now, but if it is concern for leadership being influenced through favors and money to endorse someone and not do it the context of who they are supposed to be representing, then yes, you can be both for those unions and against in some instances their leadership.
You aren't answering my question though. How can any decent progressive Democrat support these abused guest worker programs. I know that Hillary has told us eight years ago that she supported H-1B, but I see that as a reason that she is NOT progressive. Present an argument why her support for it is "progressive".
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)It describes this place to a tee!
dr60omg
(283 posts)I have been following this closely after listening to what transpired the other night. I recall that Dolores Huerta did the same thing to President Obama in 2008 as she stumped for Clinton. Everyone seems to forget about that! Everyone seems to forget that she aligned herself long ago with Steinem (who has espoused a form of liberal bourgeois feminism) Steinem who famously said in the 2008 race referring to the President that gender is more important than race. Remember that?
Heroes and heroines are human beings they are not above reproach or above power games (note the great John Lewis) but these attacks all follow the same pattern accuse Sanders or his supporters of doing something while consistently lying about their records.
I came across this blog post yesterday which is an important article to read https://siglodelucha.wordpress.com/2014/11/17/the-politics-of-opportunism-and-capitulation-the-myth-of-dolores-huerta/ Please take the time to read it (and also check out Latino rebels who did a balanced sort of report on this).
I became enraged when the Clintons (particularly Mrs. Clinton) precipitated the coup in Honduras and ultimately sent refugee children back to their deaths. I was also scratching my head also because she accused Sanders of voting with Republicans in 2007. Sanders was standing with LULAC etc ... and the unions against the use of slave labor (i.e. guest workers) something not true.
I urge people to read this blog and also check out what was said on Latino rebels.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Nev isn't devastating for Sanders, he came from 30 points back at Christmas. He took the Latino vote, breaking down a Clinton firewall. He's tied on the delegates won, bet you weren't planning on that 3 states in, six months ago. And there's loads of video being shared of the Clinton supporters running the caucuses trying to cheat, in addition to video evidence of Huerta flat-out lying (in exchange for the $100,000), for which she's desevedly taking the heat. Not only are things looking pretty good for Sanders, in 3 weeks he'll have the confederate states behind him, and smoother sailing ahead. But your 'concern' is noted.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)How did Hillary win all of the majority hispanic areas in Nevada if that's true???
EndElectoral
(4,213 posts)Like any other poll, each campaign is going to try to pick out data that helps their cause, said Joe Lenski, executive vice president of Edison Research.
Entrance polls conducted by Edison indicated that Bernie Sanders won the Hispanic vote over Clinton in Nevada by 8 percentage points, a sign of potetnial weakness for Clinton even as she won Nevada overall.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/politics-government/article61653852.html
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Latinos are a younger demographic, and Sanders dominated in the under 30 vote.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)dr60omg
(283 posts)6chars
(3,967 posts)if he had been back 30 points in February and lost by 6, that would have been a moral victory. But there were polls in the last week that had him losing by 4 or 5, so perhaps losing by 6 in this context is devastating. It's all about timing.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)really can effect the outcome point proven -thanks
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)DING DING DING.
Marcotte nails it to the wall.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)And the facts show she did indeed lie. She's no saint.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)They had the Latino vote as one of their "firewalls". Well, Sanders did very well with the Latino vote in Nevada. He may have even squeaked out a majority. In any case it was very close and destroyed the Clintonian hubris.
So, now they pull out Huerta's lie as some sort of game changing victory. Talk about desperation. That propaganda won't work. People simply aren't that dumb. Which is very bad news for the Clinton camp.
Response to BillZBubb (Reply #58)
stopbush This message was self-deleted by its author.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Hillary won every majority Hispanic area in Nevada.
You guys are losing touch with reality or believing your own propaganda, time to get a grip.
mcar
(42,329 posts)Thanks
w4rma
(31,700 posts)Besides, despite Clinton's transparent smears, Sanders's unifying politics is winning over Latinos. Latinos won't fall for Clinton's wedge issues.
https://berniesanders.com/press-release/sanders-wins-nevada-latinos-study-shows/
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
R B Garr
(16,953 posts)"The Sanders message of economic populism is not resonating with people of color, women, or union workers the very people you need to convince people your campaign is a serious one and not the electoral equivalent of the white guy in dreads wearing the Che shirt playing guitar in the quad."
And this one:
"Huerta sits right at the intersection of three demographics labor, women, people of color that the Sanders campaign needed, and failed, to win over in order to convincingly argue that this is a real political revolution instead of a social signaling opportunity for people who want to be seen as radical."
Brilliant article. There's only so many hip kAt daddios who can vote for you to be K0oL. The rest and the real demographics are the CORE constituencies.
Thanks for posting!
bigtree
(85,996 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)Damn.