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Tue Feb 23, 2016, 02:43 AM

So, DUers - What are we doing here in GD:P, and why are we doing it?

My question to all of us - at this point, what are we doing?

Earlier tonight, I conducted a highly unscientific survey of DUers, and in results that should surprise no one, over 95% of us have pretty well made up our mind on who we are voting for. So whenever we post about how great Hillary or Bernie is, we are officially just preaching to our respective choirs. True-to-DU-form, we make post after post after post about: how third-way Hillary is; Hilary's IWR vote; Bernie's love of the gun lobby; I - VT or D- VT. And I'm as guilty as any of us -- my intent is not to claim to be holier-than -thou here. But we are spending much energy pointing fingers and name calling against one another while ignoring our broad areas of agreement -- about women's rights; about the need to improve the ACA/move toward single payer; about keeping the next three SCOTUS judges from being clones of Sam Alito; about sane immigration policy; about some sense of racial justice in this country.

Another poster (Cali, I think) made a post basically saying (and I'm oversimplifying and paraphrasing) Hillary and Bernie supporters aren't speaking the same language. They just aren't interested in the same things. In a broad sense, I'd agree with that. We tend (again -- making a simplistic generalization) to have differing views on what we want in a President and from the party.

There's nothing wrong with enthusiasm for a candidate. Go Bernie! Go Hillary! However, However, it's pretty clear that both sides are getting on one another's nerves. I'm not a Sanders supporter, but I imagine Bernie supporters are tired of being told their candidate's chances are slim and his supporters are delusional. I am certain that Hillary supporters are really sick of hearing that our candidate is little-better than Ted Cruz.

So, if we've all made up our minds, fine. If we're all going to gloat and vent about primary and caucus results - fine. Here's where I'm coming from: in 2008, Hillary v. Barack got pretty acrimonious; however, we all agreed that the Bush policies had to end. We all got behind President Obama, and he won. It has not been a perfect Presidency, but it's been pretty good, especially considering the congressional headwinds and the mess he inherited in January 2009. I'm probably being overly pessimistic, but I just don' see that now. I see two sides that are pretty embittered with one another.

So I have no idea how the rest off the primaries play out. Will we pretty much know by Super Tuesday? Will this go until June? Whatever it is, I'd like to ask these questions:

If we can't come together on who should be President, can we set aside our differences to get Dems elected to the House and Senate?
Can we at least try to agree that either Clinton or Sanders would be an improvement over Rubio, Cruz, or Trump?
Can we be honest enough with ourselves to admit that both of our candidates, Bernie and Hillary, have some imperfections, drawbacks, and flaws?

61 replies, 2835 views

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Arrow 61 replies Author Time Post
Reply So, DUers - What are we doing here in GD:P, and why are we doing it? (Original post)
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 OP
merrily Feb 2016 #1
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #14
1StrongBlackMan Feb 2016 #56
brush Feb 2016 #2
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #8
RobertEarl Feb 2016 #3
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #4
RobertEarl Feb 2016 #11
FrenchieCat Feb 2016 #5
72DejaVu Feb 2016 #34
Blue_Adept Feb 2016 #41
Recursion Feb 2016 #6
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #10
Recursion Feb 2016 #12
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #17
LisaM Feb 2016 #29
LisaM Feb 2016 #30
nxylas Feb 2016 #32
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #37
nxylas Feb 2016 #42
demmiblue Feb 2016 #38
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #51
Rebkeh Feb 2016 #7
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #9
Rebkeh Feb 2016 #19
Fumesucker Feb 2016 #13
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #15
CentralMass Feb 2016 #28
lovemydog Feb 2016 #18
7wo7rees Feb 2016 #31
lovemydog Feb 2016 #16
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #21
lovemydog Feb 2016 #23
TTUBatfan2008 Feb 2016 #53
lovemydog Feb 2016 #61
delrem Feb 2016 #20
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #22
delrem Feb 2016 #25
djean111 Feb 2016 #33
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #36
djean111 Feb 2016 #39
Betty Karlson Feb 2016 #24
delrem Feb 2016 #26
7wo7rees Feb 2016 #27
firebrand80 Feb 2016 #35
hack89 Feb 2016 #40
Agschmid Feb 2016 #43
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #47
Dem2 Feb 2016 #44
kgnu_fan Feb 2016 #45
JustABozoOnThisBus Feb 2016 #46
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #49
Orsino Feb 2016 #48
Algernon Moncrieff Feb 2016 #50
Waiting For Everyman Feb 2016 #52
EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #54
artislife Feb 2016 #55
Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2016 #57
NurseJackie Feb 2016 #58
meadowlark5 Feb 2016 #59
N_E_1 for Tennis Feb 2016 #60

Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:02 AM

1. Judging by your OP, I guess "we're" posting meta and calling out other DUers?

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Response to merrily (Reply #1)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:37 AM

14. We're being hard on one another. Some of it is worthwhile discussion. Some of it is just ugly.

For a bunch of Democrats, we don't seem to like one another very much.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #14)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 12:46 PM

56. While I strongly agree with the OP ...

 

perhaps, this:

For a bunch of Democrats, we don't seem to like one another very much.


Can be explained by recognizing/acknowledging/understanding that DU has far fewer "Democrats", participating, now, than it ever has.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:07 AM

2. That makes too much sense to go over well here. Thanks for the thoughtful OP though . . .

but there are too many "I wouldn't vote for _ _ _ _ _ _ _ if my life depended on it."

The seven blank spaces can be filled in by either "Clinton" or "Sanders".

Funny, huh?

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Response to brush (Reply #2)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:21 AM

8. Thanks for reading it!

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:12 AM

3. This is a revolution

 

This is way beyond the Hope and Change Obama pledged.

This is about all of us working for a real future that is a revolt against the big money politics and the old ways of catering to the special interests.

This is a real "People Campaign" and our goal is to assimilate everyone one of you. <grin>

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:16 AM

4. Well, if Bernie is elected, hopefully he'll ship me to a FEMA camp in Vermont

If I'm to be assimilated, I'd like nice scenery - and some Phish Food.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #4)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:30 AM

11. We have taken note of your requests

 

Being that you are way down the list you may not get everything you desire. What tax bracket is it which you presently occupy? It may be beneficial to your future if it is correct one.

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:17 AM

5. LOL!

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 06:21 AM

34. Whether we want to be assimilated or not?

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Response to RobertEarl (Reply #3)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 10:38 AM

41. And revolutions tend to shoot dead those that don't get behind it

Lots of collateral damage while pushing the cause.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:18 AM

6. Destroying the party, mostly. Happens every open primary.

I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #6)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:30 AM

10. I remember '08; I remember the Lounge Wars; I remember the '09 Purge

You have to admit, this has been pretty ugly.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:31 AM

12. I do. This is probably worse than '08. I came here in '06, so I missed 2004

But I heard that was pretty bad too. But I have to say this was worse than '08 was at this point.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #12)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:48 AM

17. I was someone else before I was Algernon Moncrieff (it's all legal)

I came in in '06. I too missed '04, and heard it was pretty bad.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 04:26 AM

29. 2008 was a lot worse than 2004

But this year is the worst I have ever seen. I have been here since 2001 and just returned after a long break and the atmosphere is pretty toxic.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #17)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 04:28 AM

30. 2008 was a lot worse than 2004

But this year is the worst I have ever seen. I have been here since 2001 and just returned after a long break and the atmosphere is pretty toxic.

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Response to LisaM (Reply #30)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 05:32 AM

32. And 2020/2024 will be even worse

When the arguments will be between supporters of Vermin Supreme and Kim Kardashian.

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Response to nxylas (Reply #32)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 10:13 AM

37. I'm hoping perhaps America Fererra vs. Donnie Wahlberg

...but yes -- politics as infotainment seems to now be upon us.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #37)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 10:40 AM

42. Or Martin Shkreli (sp?) vs Tim Kaine

The former will run on the slogan "Hey, at least I'm not a Republican", while the latter will be smeared as a radical leftist promising unicorns and rainbows to a gullible public.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #10)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 10:20 AM

38. For the most part, it is the same people over and over again who are causing all the drama.

There are also some who seem to only come back to DU during election time.

To me, the worst was the LGBT purge in 2008.

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Response to demmiblue (Reply #38)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 12:22 PM

51. That really was a bad time at DU, as well as for the party generally.

There was a lot of very justifiable anger and bitterness after Prop 8 in California, and Prop 8 seemed so incongruous to the election of Barack Obama.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:19 AM

7. Yes, yes and yes...

after the primary. We have primaries for a reason and it's a very important one.

The vitriol and hate is ugly, yes, and we probably should take it down a notch. However, conflict is necessary and I'm fine with it as long as it is constructive. A lot of what's on DU is constructive, some of it is not.

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Response to Rebkeh (Reply #7)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:27 AM

9. That sums it up nicely - We probably should take it down a notch

My question is this -- is it constructive if we've all made up our minds? If so, to what end? (technically, 2 questions)

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #9)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:52 AM

19. The discourse is part of the process,

We are doing more than convincing people to vote our way, we are figuring out who we are and who we are going to be. What are libprogs about? What's the party about? The country, even?

The fight is for the soul of the party - put simply, FDR v 3rd Way? Democracy is messy, we are supposed to argue. That doesn't mean we have to resort to personal attacks and petty games though.

Edited to add: FDR v 3rd Way is one way to frame it. A better way might be community v tribalism, people v business, establishment v grassroots. Who, exactly, does our government work for? Who should it work for?

Shutting down these conversations doesn't resolve anything.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:35 AM

13. For anyone who hasn't quite figured it out yet ..

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:40 AM

15. This is "being hit on the head lessons"

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #15)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 04:26 AM

28. Or fish slapping.


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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:50 AM

18. They fight. They bite

They bite and fight and bite
Bite bite bite
Fight fight fight
The Itchy and Scratchy Show!

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #13)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 04:34 AM

31. Perfect!

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:46 AM

16. Yeah, I like your reasonable posts.

I don't know why but people seem to love arguing on the net. I guess maybe it's the drama. And I'm not too holier than thou about it. I love drama as long as I'm not in the middle of it.

I'm always urging people to think and talk more about local and state and congressional elections. No one seems to do it much though. And what the hell, maybe it's because it's so much easier & more fun to go to GDP instead and see who is outraged about what this minute or this day.

It's true that there is a gap in languages being spoken. Sometimes I see people arguing over something and they are each partly right and partly wrong. But neither of them will admit it. They just keep arguing the same points over and over. It's pretty funny.

Perhaps another way of looking at it too is that for most Clinton supporters republicans are the enemy that must be defeated, while for most Sanders supporters mainstream democrats are the enemy that must be defeated. What makes it even more tense and exhausting is that both of those sides know they'll need one another to get out and vote to gain anything or at the very least keep from horrible setbacks.

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #16)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 04:01 AM

21. Thanks. I'm not always reasonable.

And you are right - drama can be fun. Playing smack-back can be fun. I plead guilty.

"Third Way" has been an ugly term for progressives for forever, and the Clintons are associated with that movement. So I get that, but I get frustrated at the zero-sum-game. I'm not with the Sanders progressives on (fill in the issue) so I'm a DINO/Pub Lite/worse names. That's frustrating. I've been a registered Democrat all of my adult life, and I'm certainly not advocating for a wall or an invasion of the Middle East. Your point is spot on, but I'm not sure we can even reach consensus on what is a "mainstream Democrat" these days.

I don't live in Illinois, but this election, I'd get joy if we could get Tammy Duckworth elected to the US Senate, and then make a collective vow that what Saxby Chambliss did to Max Cleland can never happen again!

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #21)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 04:16 AM

23. Yeah, go Tammy Duckworth!

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Response to lovemydog (Reply #16)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 12:29 PM

53. No, that is not a fair description of Sanders supporters.

Sanders supporters for the most part believe the two party system itself is corrupt. Both parties are bought and paid for by the military industrial complex, the big banks, big drug companies, etc. It is not that the Democrats are THE enemy as you stated, it is that we find it sad so many of them have sold out to the big corporate interests instead of fighting for the people. Are the Democrats better than Republicans? On certain stuff, definitely! Supreme Court is a great example.

I think a lot of Sanders people will vote Democrat for the Supreme Court reason alone, but this does not mean the party is flawless. The GOP is absolutely terrible, obviously. They are THE enemy if we really want to narrow it down as much as possible. The Democrats are better than the GOP but still part of the overall problem when they do favors for corporate America instead of working for the people. Get the money out of politics and then perhaps we will have a government that is more honest regardless of each politician's ideology or even each party's ideology.

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Response to TTUBatfan2008 (Reply #53)

Wed Feb 24, 2016, 09:00 PM

61. Thanks. I appreciate your response.

I should have said some (not all!) Sanders supporters. My bad. I agree with your goals & opinions. There have been many efforts over the years to limit the effects of big money on campaign financing. The Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act was the most recent. Unfortunately the Supreme Court's Citizen's United decision called the legality of this into questions because the Court ruled that such efforts restrict free speech.

That's why both Clinton and Sanders have pledged that their nominee for the Supreme Court would be likely to overturn Citizen's United. Sanders has gone even further by saying he would have that question as a litmus test. It's most definitely a problem in politics and as you say it's in both parties.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 03:54 AM

20. Sorry Algernon Moncrieff, but there are *contradictions* between the candidates.

What Hillary Rodham Clinton is, politically, is well known, and it *contradicts* what Bernie Sanders stands for.
What Bernie Sanders is, politically, is well known, and it *contradicts* what Hillary Rodham Clinton stands for.

This isn't a tempest in a teacup, it's the real thing.

Bernie Sanders' candidacy made the schism visible. Until his candidacy, there was no viable expression of it. This is perhaps the most substantial Dem primary that I can think of, where people are genuinely given a chance to decide their future. DU has been instrumental in defining Bernie Sanders' message for the public, IMO. He's been subjected to all kinds of Rovian ratfucking crap from the beginning, and his supporters are the stronger for it.

I'm not so pessimistic as you, as to want to call off discussion of critical differences.

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Response to delrem (Reply #20)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 04:10 AM

22. Bill Clinton got in trouble for comparing Sanders supporters to the Tea Party

Frankly, I wish he'd have chosen words more carefully, but the comparison is apt at this level: the Tea Party served to pull the Republican Party further from the political center, and the Sanders wing of the Democratic party is doing much the same thing.

Having said that, the discussion is reaching a point of diminishing returns. Nobody is winning over undecided DUers -- there are virtually none to be won.

I also reject the notion that Hillary Clinton "contradicts " what Bernie Sanders stands for. On most key issues, they are in broad agreement. Sanders supporters hold that Clinton is too close to Wall Street. Clinton supporters counter that true progressives wouldn't oppose the Brady Bill. I'm a cynic. I hold that no politician of any stripe is pure.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #22)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 04:19 AM

25. You make no sense to me. So sorry, I'm leaving this thread. nt

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #22)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 06:07 AM

33. Generally speaking, Hillary stands for more wars, fracking, the TPP, increased H-1B visas,

 

is against single payer. To name just a few things. Bernie is against those. You have over-simplified and over-generalized in limiting comparison to Wall Street and the Brady Bill.

So yeah, Hillary does "contradict" what Bernie stands for. This is not about purity. If you don't care for the discussions, maybe just don't read them?

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Response to djean111 (Reply #33)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 10:10 AM

36. Discussion is only useful if there is someone to convince or persuade

We appear to be fresh out of that

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Reply #36)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 10:33 AM

39. That's a good observation - but your dismissal of Bernie and Hillary as being pretty much the same

 

was WAY off course. There would not be as much rancor, IMO, if they only differed on Wall Street and the Brady Bill.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 04:17 AM

24. Clinton's camp is on a belittling marathon, but somehow Sanders supperters have to be the first

 

to stop splitting the party? I see what you are trying to do. I'm "sure" your intentions are all right.

"Can we be honest enough with ourselves to admit that both of our candidates, Bernie and Hillary, have some imperfections, drawbacks, and flaws?"

Clinton is the lesser of two evils. Just look at the dishonest way her campaign operates. Just look at the dismissive and arrogant way she handles any voter under 35.

Sanders has never been perfect. But he is good.

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Response to Betty Karlson (Reply #24)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 04:22 AM

26. Yes. It's plain as the nose on your face.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 04:23 AM

27. Damn fine question!

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 06:33 AM

35. I'm here for the lolz nt

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 10:35 AM

40. DU performance art featuring the Lord of the Flies. nt

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 10:43 AM

43. This is a non-productive food fight. Nothing more, nothing less.

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Response to Agschmid (Reply #43)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 12:01 PM

47. As long as we all realize that.

At this point, nobody is convincing anyone of anything.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 11:02 AM

44. Excellent post

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 11:14 AM

45. Problem is ---we are still continuing the Bush policies, even worse.

Listen to all those whistle-blowers who are put into prison and silenced. (Watch the movie "Silenced" @SilencedFilm )

So your assumption "we all agreed that the Bush policies had to end" may not be accurate. In order to discontinue/curtail the Bush policies, we need Bernie. That is the crux of the augments. It takes changes in our tax system, military budget, CIA, NSA... you name it.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 11:59 AM

46. Here, we can argue.

Try that in the Hillary group or the Bernie group, and you'll be banished instantly.

The rancorous entertainment should continue until one of them quits. Then there will be grave-dancing, followed by attempts at reconciliation.

I'm putting a dollar on June. Grovelbot will hold all the bets.

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Response to JustABozoOnThisBus (Reply #46)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 12:17 PM

49. I think you'll win the pool.

Like 2008, I think we'll have a good idea after Super Tuesday, but it won't be settled until June.

I'd just like more DUers to start laying the groundwork for reconciliation -- or self-interested cooperation -- now. We know the nominee will be Hillary or Bernie (barring something bizarre); we know who supports who (or whom -- I can never keep that straight) and that everyone's support is entrenched at this point; and we know that both sides have competing interests and don't want anyone from the other side defining who is or isn't a Democrat. What we have now is both sides making essentially the same posts over and over and over.

For the record, I asked the Bernie group to banish me. They haven't done it yet. So whatever banishment is, it's not instant.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 12:17 PM

48. There's also the most important use of an Internet discussion board in a functioning democracy:

Telling all those ________ supporters that they are wrong and bad. Just like in fourth grade.

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Response to Orsino (Reply #48)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 12:19 PM

50. Like fourth grade, but without references to "your mama"

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 12:28 PM

52. I come here for information, not to persuade other DUers.

If that happens, great. But that's not primary to me. We exchange information and spread it out to the circles that each of us influences. DU is great for that.

It'll go till the convention and depending on how the cards fall, may go beyond that. For sure there will be no large scale conceding anytime beforehand. Forget about Super Tuesday, we all have the schedule of races and we know where our strengths are.

This is a year when the conventional wisdom is worthless. This isn't news to us. So all previously predictable bets are off. It's wait and see all they way.

I believe sooner or later (hopefully sooner) HRC will self-destruct, much like Mitt Romney did. I'll be very surprised indeed if she doesn't.

As to who to support all I can say is I want the corporatists out. Whatever it takes to do that.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 12:31 PM

54. Answers

If we can't come together on who should be President, can we set aside our differences to get Dems elected to the House and Senate?

Depends on the Dems. If there's one thing my experience with Hillary has convinced me it's this: don't simply vote for someone based on them being a Democrat.

Can we at least try to agree that either Clinton or Sanders would be an improvement over Rubio, Cruz, or Trump?

I'm not sure. I'm with Assange; a Clinton Presidency would be a disaster. Why would I support any disaster? And why would I put my stamp of approval on a corporate and dishonest person who's a pawn of big corporations? Just because of her party? Or because I'm meant to be scared of the alternative? Forget it.. Not voting out of fear again.

Can we be honest enough with ourselves to admit that both of our candidates, Bernie and Hillary, have some imperfections, drawbacks, and flaws?

Which would you rather eat: a piece of chocolate that briefly fell on the floor, or a piece of rotten uncooked beef?

Both have flaws...

Trying to equivocate between the two based on them both having flaws is absurd. The scope of their flaws is so different that any attempt simply makes you look dishonest.

Bernie has flaws, I can list them:

- his foreign policy (hers is worse)
- his gun policies (hers are as bad)
- his support for military spending
- his willingness to accept some pork for VT

There's also some things I'd change about his campaign.

But.

To list all of her flaws would take days. And days. And new ones seem to be discovered on a daily basis.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 12:37 PM

55. Answering the question of what are we doing here

 

My reason is to find out what the candidates are doing and saying . There is so much information. Sure, we interpret the information differently depending on our candidate of choice. Then we get into turf wars....but the information still is coming in.


That is the nugget of this site. There is real information mixed in with spin, hubris and some dog shit.

I will be voting for issues and I probably never look at the Democratic Party the same way again.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 12:52 PM

57. There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge. Bertrand Russell

 

Or, I've been here since 2001 because I like discussing politics and current events. I'm not trying to "accomplish" anything.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 12:55 PM

58. With regard to this ...

Can we at least try to agree that either Clinton or Sanders would be an improvement over Rubio, Cruz, or Trump?

Can we be honest enough with ourselves to admit that both of our candidates, Bernie and Hillary, have some imperfections, drawbacks, and flaws?


In our hearts, I think everyone knows and understand this already. Those who pledge to "never vote for the nominee if it's not their candidate" are just angry and are trying to antagonize the other candidate's supporters. If not that, then they're just feeling helpless because they don't like that there are circumstances which are totally beyond their control, so they're acting-out and seeking comfort and validation (regardless of whether they realize that's what they're doing.)

It will pass. People will cope and adapt. Most will come around, and there will (of course) be a few stragglers who do live up to their pledge to sit-out the election. That's their choice and nothing will change their minds, so why bother with them?

Fortunately, in the real world ... those types of individuals (whether for Bernie or Hillary) don't exist in number sufficient enough to make a difference. In the end, cooler heads will prevail, the SMART and MATURE voters (who know how to handle disappointment) will do the right thing.

Go, Democrats!

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 12:58 PM

59. I confess I only come here to read when there are big current events

Last edited Tue Feb 23, 2016, 02:55 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't post much because I just am plumb out of energy to argue about politics anymore. And your post struck a chord with me. You are saying what I keep thinking but not just here at DU but on other social media as well. The discourse between Hillary and Bernie supporters is pretty horrible. And that worries me very much for the fall.

When both Bernie and Hillary became candidates, I was very pleased. I thought we had two good people vying for the presidency. I had no strong pull to either. I consider myself progressive/liberal but not all the way to the left (though my conservative family would differ on that). And I have to say, reading here as well as comments on other social media is making me dislike both Hillary and Bernie And it has nothing to do with Hillary or Bernie. It is the supporters that I have to keep reminding myself is causing this misplaced dislike. I have to consciously separate the candidates from the rhetoric of the supporters.

There are a lot of people/voters out there like me. We don't live and breathe politics. We read and try to be informed but we don't want or need to argue every issue. And fighting and name calling and insults only drives people away.

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Response to Algernon Moncrieff (Original post)

Tue Feb 23, 2016, 01:37 PM

60. Oh I agree so, so much...

Read some posts and answers. " I have 15,000 on ignore, oh yeah I have more and DU is sooo much better if you do that ignore thingy".
How can you possibly have a discourse if you don't listen?

No matter the political bent, people in this country are angry at how things are going.
Trump and Sanders are proving that statement. We need to change stuff up.
But here's the odd point.... Change is difficult, it requires those who want it to become engaged.

"Oh crap, you now want me to DO something? You want me to give up a little of my time?
I want change, but my TV show is on now and I really can't get behind. I want and need this counry to change its ideas but will it effect my savings? I want change but I'm going to Myrtle Beach for break and it's just not a great time, by the way I hate the direction this country is going, does that help? I hate the way corporatism is driving this country, I just won't buy anything after I get my new curved TV, new router, some cables, and a new sofa, so I can watch the debates in style." And on and on and on.

Get my point?

We here at DU are a slightly different animal. We are more politically engaged than most.
Most of America really doesn't give a flying fuck. We are a lazy, nonengaged populace. Just give me comfort.

A perfect candidate? There is no such beast.

Real problem between the two camps... Some see the need for change, others can't fathom it. It's just easier to do the same, over and over. It just feels right.

I must add that some of this is sarcasm.

It a sorry fact that I have to add that.

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