2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumI Jumped Off the Fence
A funny thing happened to me today. I haven't said anything about the presidential primaries on Facebook, in part because I've been focused on Donna Edwards' Senate campaign. But there was another reason. For the most part, I didn't care. I knew that the heat was up between Bernie supporters and Hillary supporters, and it has been ugly. VERY ugly. And listening to Bernie supporters bash Hillary supporters was a big turn-off. I had done some reading about the candidates' positions on their websites, and Bernie's were definitely more ambitious, more pie-in-the-sky. I can see why he has so much appeal, although I think he'll have to take amazing liberties with Executive Orders... but all that to say, I was on the fence. Well, today, I fell off the fence and landed in the Hillary camp.
It was a weird thing really. I was reading about a group of airline stewardesses who had sued and won the right to wear pants. For them, it was a BIG deal. And I watched some men come along and talk about how they wanted to wear kilts. They really didn't understand. I don't think they wanted to understand. There were some women who tried to explain. How skirts are cold and impractical in cold weather, are impractical in most male-centered workplaces, and just in general are restrictive, on purpose. And then one man said "it's just a custom, it's a cultural thing". As if that excuses instances of sexism. At any rate, my feminist rage kicked in, and I fell off the fence. It's time for a woman president, Hillary has groomed herself for the job, and by golly, I'm going to vote for her. Sure, she's not as progressive as Bernie. Not by miles. Yes, she gets corporate money. Yes, she raked in millions as a speaker. Yes, yes, yes, she fails the progressive litmus test. But by gosh, I think she has the cajones to do the job, and to do the job well. So, IF she wins the nomination, I will campaign for her. This has surprised me. But sexism pushed me over the edge. And I want Hillary.
HillDawg
(198 posts)We are glad to have you
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)Welcome!
TNProfessor
(83 posts)I have been wavering between the two for months. My four year old daughter keeps telling me to "vote for the girl mommy." DH has been for HRC since the beginning.
I think I will "vote for the girl."
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)When we discussed Presidents Day (which they had learned about in school), she wondered who the next president would be. I asked her who she'd like it to be. "The girl," she said.
So there you have it!
TNProfessor
(83 posts)I have been really back and forth.
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)She is a pretty good girl to vote for, I think she will make you and your daughter proud.
w4rma
(31,700 posts)pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)Thanks for that.
Flying Squirrel
(3,041 posts)For every person who jumps off the fence for her, two jump off the fence for Bernie. I won't minimize the importance of a female president, and I think it will happen within my lifetime (I'm 47) but in case you hadn't noticed, having a black president did not end racism.
qwlauren35
(6,153 posts)Electing Hillary will not eliminate sexism. But it shows girls all over the country that women CAN do pretty much anything they set their minds to. And that's a big deal.
Voice for Peace
(13,141 posts)Her willingness to use dishonesty to manipulate voters is not okay with me.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Response to qwlauren35 (Reply #27)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)One woman defected because she didn't like what she was hearing at the table as the Hillary folks talked among themselves. When she got up to cross over a bunch of Hillary supporters got really NASTY calling her a "traitor" and a "moocher" and that caused another one of their number to come over to the Bernie side.
The attitude was one of superiority.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)It still takes time, and the backlash was awful, but that is always what happens when you take a leap forward. There's no button you can push to solve a problem, but there are watershed moments.
Millions of people won't think it can't happen anymore. It is powerful.
Nonhlanhla
(2,074 posts)to the Sisterhood of the Flying Pant(suits)!
Herman4747
(1,825 posts)My own mother would be against that -- and she was as feminist as one could be.
qwlauren35
(6,153 posts)but today, something just snapped, and I felt as though she represents me better than Bernie.
Jitter65
(3,089 posts)JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)Lorien
(31,935 posts)into oblivion? How "pie-in-the-sky" are Bernie's plans, if they've already been adopted for decades in most of the rest of the industrialized world? And we HAD free State college tuition throughout the 60s and 70s already! But Reaganism is a hard drug for many to quit, including the Clintons.
I'd personally rather worry about equitable pay than pants. Hillary had NO problem whatsoever with women being paid far less than men at Walmart when she was on Walmart's board. In fact, she said that she was "proud of the way Walmart does business."
Hillary wants to attack Iran: http://www.globalresearch.ca/hillary-clinton-if-im-president-we-will-attack-iran/5460484
Hillary pushed Fracking on the rest of the planet: http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/09/hillary-clinton-fracking-shale-state-department-chevron
How women workers faired at Walmart when Hillary was on it's board:
Hillary's campaign had a gender pay gap: http://freebeacon.com/politics/hillary-clintons-campaign-has-a-gender-pay-problem/
brooklynite
(94,950 posts)oasis
(49,480 posts)qwlauren35
(6,153 posts)Everyone has their issues.
Mine is abortion. BIG hot button. HUGE hot button. I am virtually a one issue voter.
And both candidates support abortion rights. And so, I am still okay with either candidate winning. Really. I'm not going to campaign for Hillary. But when I go behind the curtain, my one little vote will be for her. Even with AAAAALLLLLLLL those things you don't like about her. And when I say "pie in the Sky" it's because we live in a country where some people would shoot themselves in the head before they would support something "socialist" even if it's in their best interest. So, yeah Europe has it. Remember "Freedom Fries". There are people in the US who pride themselves on NOT being like Europe.
So, pie-in-the-sky. And if he wins the nomination, I promise to ***campaign*** for him, not just vote, make calls, knock on doors, etc. Can you promise the same?
Jitter65
(3,089 posts)to own a gun but I am closing on-line and gun show loopholes that negate background checks and a waiting period until the background check clears. I am also for controlling or preventing the sale of bult weapons purchases and for checks and clearance on the sale of assault weapons ammo and explosives. I swear the pain of seeing children killed in mass murders and the lives of black children and others in black neighborhoods taken by easily accessible guns.
The latest incident reported about Uber driver just randomly shooting people made me sick on the stomach.
The President asked that we make this a voters issue and I did. So that puts me squarely in the Hillary camp but I will fight my heart out for Bernie if he wins the primary.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Hillary knows raising the guns issue will drive turnout against her and it's the right leaning voters she's going to want to capture in the general.
brooklynite
(94,950 posts)I respect anyone who's made a thoughtful choice about their political candidates.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)What is the problem with them wearing kilts? How is them wearing kilts sexist? Heck, the first thing I'd have done is PUT them in kilts (and lowered the temperature to an appropriate comparison to our own) so they can see why we wanted to change!
Anyway, I don't get the story but I'm happy you reached a decision, even if it's different from mine.
qwlauren35
(6,153 posts)There was a thread about women who had won a lawsuit to wear pants on an airline. Some of the men talked about how if women could wear pants on an airline, then they should be allowed to wear kilts.
It just pushed me over.
bkkyosemite
(5,792 posts)sniper fire.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)Proof is they have tiny junk.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,719 posts)Putting candidates aside it reminds me of the tendentious argument by some why we need black colleges, black beauty pageants, and groups solely dedicated to issues important to the black community and why there aren't white corollaries to these institutions.
These institutions exist because of the cultural history that created them.
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)Is everybody supposed to be clapping, because
you made up your mind?
Go ahead and wear pantsuits now for the rest of your life,
it will not make a difference to anyone else.
oasis
(49,480 posts)edgineered
(2,101 posts)I showed my friend how to duck between them. He laughed and said I'm 6'6 so I'll just step over. He too jumped off the fence, and landed where he started. It was not surprising that he was quite shocked, as he was told that it was an electric fence. Good luck crossing that fence again in November - you're still on the wrong side.
qwlauren35
(6,153 posts)I hope you will not stay home, I hope you will not vote for a Republican.
I am still okay with either candidate winning. Really. I'm not going to campaign for Hillary. But when I go behind the curtain, my one little vote will be for her. Frankly, before today, I wasn't going to vote for either one of them.
edgineered
(2,101 posts)than there is of my voting to be ensnared by it. I'm glad you have made a decision, even if my view of it is comparable to why someone would buy a BBQ chicken at the deli when there is a lemon-pepper one right next to it.
qwlauren35
(6,153 posts)let me be BBQ. I love BBQ.
edgineered
(2,101 posts)Next time there is a BOGO we can both be very happy.
Thespian2
(2,741 posts)is the same as voting for a Repukkkian...she cannot win the general election...her big money donors already know she will do what she is told to do...
artislife
(9,497 posts)Hillary and Jill.
Zen Democrat
(5,901 posts)qwlauren35
(6,153 posts)If Bernie doesn't win, I hope you won't stay home.
I ***DO NOT KNOW*** who will win. I am okay with either candidate winning. Really. I'm not going to campaign for Hillary. But when I go behind the curtain, my one little vote will be for her. Frankly, before today, I wasn't going to vote for either one of them.
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)And she really is more progressive than many think she is. She has just learned to bide her time, and fight smart for progress.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)She is not really progressive. Her core is conservative. She runs a GOP style campaign and they are authoritarian -- you don't play their game they have a long list they keep.
But she is amazingly flexible, meaning, when the political winds shift and one of her conservative stated principles is no longer in vogue, she will parrot the popular stance like a pro. She talks the talk but when it matters she is not with the Democratic/progressive side.
Lucinda
(31,170 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)She's a woman! Bernie's not.
Eh, I had you figured as a pro establishment voter, but to come right out and say because : She...?
kiva
(4,373 posts)Somehow that dims your feminist creds a bit.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Skirts and kilts are totally lacking, so I voted for a Wall Street insider to help out those of us who make 75 cents for every dollar a guy makes. (Yeah, right! )
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)sadly mistaken. There is just as much bashing coming from Hillary supporters if not more.
Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)...to smear Bernie Sanders supporters. The David Brock led Super PAC coordinates with the Hillary Clinton campaign.
Bernie Sanders doesn't have a coordinated Super PAC.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)I don't think you were ever on the fence but use that as a way to promote Hillary. The reason I say this is because you're just regurgitating clinton talking points in this convenient packaging.
Bernie supporters bashing Hillary supporters. . that's a crock and one of the most prevelant talking points.
Every week or so, the surrogates come out and spread lies and misinformation about Bernie. Man, she even got her own DAUGHTER to come out and lie and smear him. Yea, that's a good mother. I wonder if that was a proud moment for her, watching her daughter spread the lies her mommie told her to say.
All Bernie does is go out and tell his message. There is a treasure trove of ugly stuff the Clintons have done that he could dredge up but he doesn't, he just keeps going with his message to the people.
So, you twist your little mind any way you like, but the fact is, you don't care who Hillary is or what she has done, you'll find excuses to rationalize what you want.
qwlauren35
(6,153 posts)I'm just telling you how I feel. I have not heard the smears on the outside, only what I see inside DU. It to be too much for me.
BTW, I don't have a "little mind".
I will say over and over, I never intended to vote for either candidate. I am usually an independent, but I had to register Democrat to vote for Donna, and so then I was presented with the dilemma. Hillary or Bernie. Now it's possible that in my mind, I was more like "why not Hillary?" but I don't think so. I really don't care, I really don't think a single vote matters, I really believe that unless you campaign, you're just talking sh*t. And I'm not campaigning for Hillary. That's how much I don't care who wins. But I've decided to vote for her. And truly, that skirts thing really did it.
Again, it's REALLY okay if you don't believe me.
pdsimdars
(6,007 posts)I can't believe how small minded this thread mostly is. It's all about the sex of the candidate.
At least with the Bernie supporters they actually think about issues.
It is not about sex. If Elizabeth Warren were running I'd vote for her in a heartbeat because she is on the right side of the issues, like Bernie. See, in case many of you didn't know this, any sex can be on the right side of history or the wrong side of history. It is not about their sex but their MIND.
I think all who are posting about the "message" this sends to their daughters are sending a pretty stupid message to them ... vote for the girl, i.e. their sex is what matters. Yea, that's the way to make your daughters smart. . . don't worry about what they are saying or what they do, vote gender. What a shallow thought process.
wildeyed
(11,243 posts)Campaigning Pro Tip: Calling voters "small minded" and accusing them of lying will not persuade them to your candidate. In fact, if you force them into a corner with insults, they will double down.
This was a public service announcement
Bread and Circus
(9,454 posts)fun n serious
(4,451 posts)Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)The UK having had a female leader didn't stop British Airways from fighting the stewardesses in court. Fortunately, the stewardesses won.
JonLeibowitz
(6,282 posts)snot
(10,549 posts)I see talk here about Bernie Bros., but I guess I'm not going to the places where it's posted . . . I'd just like to see for myself.
betsuni
(25,789 posts)"Women Who Wear Pants: Still Somehow Controversial." Not as much fun as insinuating people aren't telling the truth?
Betty Karlson
(7,231 posts)I don't believe you anymore than I believe Clinton. And that is saying a LOT.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)The only reason Hillary supporters support her is in contrast with Bernie.
Beacool
(30,254 posts)What a nonsensical comment.
I want Hilliary, and non other, to be the next POTUS
mhatrw
(10,786 posts)In the case of your rationale for supporting Clinton over Sanders, kilty as charged.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)the most toxic campaign for President by any candidate on the left in our nation's history.
Something about Sanders candidacy has caused way too many of his supporters to behave like this, and he hasn't done nearly enough, soon/early enough, to take them to task for it.
Few if any of the responses by them to you are the slightest bit respectful or issue based, most are nasty, insulting and personal. Even the ones that purport to bring up issues for you to consider are sneering and rude.
As I have said before, I really hope Hillary closes him out because I don't think I can support that superfund site of a campaign. Let's hope it's over soon.
Herman4747
(1,825 posts)...a Liar-in-Chief, but evidently you are.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)It's toxic.
Eric J in MN
(35,619 posts)...whose purpose is to smear Bernie Sanders and his supporters.
People on a message board who don't think someone should choose a presidential candidate because of an argument with random guys about kilts doesn't compare to Hillary Clinton having a Smear Super PAC.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)bigtree
(86,016 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)ismnotwasm
(42,023 posts)livetohike
(22,169 posts)MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)I've always been in Hillary's camp, but do understand Sanders' appeal.
hoosierlib
(710 posts)Enjoy Camp Weathervane!
BlueMTexpat
(15,374 posts)I really don't care who supports whom in the primaries, so long as they are not smearing my candidate and her supporters with every post and repeating GOPer talking points ad nauseam, which has too often been the case here. We have two good candidates and each has a core group of loyal supporters, the overwhelming majority of whom behave very well. But some behave outrageously.
The anecdote you mention about airline stewardesses demonstrates exactly the kind of latent sexism that too many deny and that is omnipresent in this race. Any woman who has ever worked in an organization and who, time and time again, has seen men who are less qualified and experienced given more power and authority simply because they are ... men ... has also experienced that.
Hillary - as a woman candidate - must be 100 perfect - which is impossible. She is human and she has made mistakes, some of them more serious than others. Men who have made the same, e.g., voting for the IWR, have NOT been punished for that as she has. For example, John Kerry became the Dem nominee in 2004. And that "progressive icon" Susan Sarandon was a supporter of John Edwards in 2008. Both Kerry and Edwards voted for the IWR. In spite of Hillary's mistakes, they do NOT outweigh the tremendous good that she has done throughout her career, and they never will.
Despite the fact that since graduation from university studies, she has worked tirelessly with and for others, she is criticized for every single thing she thinks, says, does and wears. She cannot evolve or change her mind about anything without being called untrustworthy or worse.
Bernie, apart from a spurt of activism in his college days and early youth, basically held no job until his 40s, when he was successful in his run for Mayor of Burlington. There is no question that he has been other than an excellent Representative and Senator for Vermont in DC. But if a woman with the same background were running for President in 2016, I don't believe that she would be forgiven the kind of early life that Bernie had. She would literally be hung out to dry.
Considering his long time stay (since 1991) in DC, he can hardly be considered other than "Establishment" simply because he has been an Independent. His legislative record for that long period is somewhat lacking although he has indeed supported progressive causes for the most part. He has also made mistakes. But he has NEVER been held accountable for his mistakes in any way comparable to the way Hillary has for hers. He has NEVER been pilloried and vilified by his opponents in the same way that the RW has done with Hillary since at least 1992.
Their records, education, experience and public service are simply not comparable, IMO. Hillary's, by far, exceeds Bernie's, IMO, and her record of forming coalitions of interested parties who can actually achieve badly needed progress is simply superb.
She will be an outstanding President and I am very proud to support her.
R B Garr
(17,011 posts)You gave some great examples of her strength and why that appeals to you. I'm very impressed by the depth and breadth of her personal relationships that span many years throughout much of her life/background. That takes effort to do that, which Bernie never bothered much with. I see red flags and flaws in his character because of his lack of relationship skills.
Hillary 2016! Great thread!