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EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:23 PM Feb 2016

Bernie Sanders is NOT a Socialist, by ANY definition

Socialism is defined by the STATE owning the means of production.

That's not what he believes in

Here's what he believes in:

"support for a "universalist" welfare state aimed specifically at enhancing individual autonomy and promoting social mobility; a corporatist system involving a tripartite arrangement where representatives of labor and employers negotiate wages and labor market policy mediated by the government; and a commitment to widespread private ownership, free markets and free trade."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

That's Bernie.

Socialism on the other hand is this:

"Socialism is a variety of social and economic systems characterised by social ownership and democratic control of the means of production; as well as the political ideologies, theories, and movements that aim at their establishment. Social ownership may refer to forms of public, cooperative, or collective ownership; to citizen ownership of equity; or to any combination of these. Although there are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms."

Bernie DOESN'T believe in that.

Social ownership is NOT the same thing as universal healthcare or building roads.

This is from the Wiki page on Social Ownership:

Misuse of the term

See also: Socialized medicine

Particularly in the United States, the term "socialization" has been mistakenly used to refer to any state or government-operated industry or service (the proper term for such being either nationalization or municipalization). It has also been used to mean any tax-funded programs, whether privately run or government run. The term "socialized" is usually used in a pejorative sense, most commonly in reference to publicly funded health care programs.[43]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_ownership#Misuse_of_the_term

23 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Bernie Sanders is NOT a Socialist, by ANY definition (Original Post) EdwardBernays Feb 2016 OP
Why has he called himself a Socialist? redstateblues Feb 2016 #1
He has defined it as democratic socialism... MrMickeysMom Feb 2016 #2
They know the answer HassleCat Feb 2016 #4
words DO have meaning EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #6
As a democratic socialist for 35 years HassleCat Feb 2016 #9
The vice president of the Democratic Socialist of America EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #12
Oh, is that why we endorsed him? HassleCat Feb 2016 #16
Youre confused EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #17
Thanks. I'll fix that. HassleCat Feb 2016 #18
they know. and don't care. just another attempt restorefreedom Feb 2016 #11
they know Duckhunter935 Feb 2016 #7
To quote the vice-chair of the Democratic Socialists of America. EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #5
Thank you, EdwardBernays... MrMickeysMom Feb 2016 #13
He is a Social Democrat. It is very clear. yodermon Feb 2016 #3
+Infinity! - nt KingCharlemagne Feb 2016 #10
A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Juliet in Romeo and Juliet. Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2016 #8
OCT 11 2015, 11:50 AM ET Meet the Press Transcript - October 11, 2015 Gothmog Feb 2016 #14
Democratic Socialists aren't socialists EdwardBernays Feb 2016 #15
Why Bernie Sanders isnít going to be president, in five words Gothmog Feb 2016 #23
Drop him in water if he floats he's a socialist Cheese Sandwich Feb 2016 #19
Nor does he believe in dialectical materialism Recursion Feb 2016 #20
it's such an insane argument anyway-- as if "socialist" is such a naughty, dirty thing Fast Walker 52 Feb 2016 #21
There are lots of Socialisms. According to Richard Wolff, the definition is continually changing. Gregorian Feb 2016 #22

MrMickeysMom

(20,453 posts)
2. He has defined it as democratic socialism...
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:28 PM
Feb 2016

I have an entire speech transcript of it from months ago, which I quoted to another person who was unaware. I never seem to hear more from people who ask this question, and when providing them documentation, still think he's lying.

He's not lying. Now, answer me this... Do you seriously want to read this or not?

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
4. They know the answer
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:39 PM
Feb 2016

They just like to use the dictionary to pretend democratic socialists have no "right" to call themselves that. If we follow that logic, the Democratic Party is not very democratic, and the word "republican" is not defined as, "eligible for involuntary detention in an asylum." This is so much like the right wing schtick insisting socialists are the same as Nazis because the Nazis called themselves national socialists. Nothing more than meaningless static.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
6. words DO have meaning
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:42 PM
Feb 2016

The word socialism means social ownership, which is not the same thing as a government program.

Bernie, and every country he references as being examples he'd like to follow, do not have social ownership.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
9. As a democratic socialist for 35 years
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:52 PM
Feb 2016

I would tell you you're wrong, but I would be wasting my breath, or my key strokes. People who like to play little semantic games to cause trouble would never listen to the actual party that calls itself Democratic Socialists of America. What do they know? Somebody should whack them upside the head with an unabridged dictionary until they give in and admit they're not socialists. Then we can move on to the Democratic Party, which does not support democracy at all. Maybe you guys should start a Words Mean What I Say They Mean Party. You could call it the Mean Party for short.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
12. The vice president of the Democratic Socialist of America
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:00 PM
Feb 2016

Says Bernie is not a socialist.

I don't know.. Maybe send him an email.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
17. Youre confused
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:18 PM
Feb 2016

Democrat Socialists aren't Socialists.

Neither is Bernie.

They go together perfectly well.

 

HassleCat

(6,409 posts)
18. Thanks. I'll fix that.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:51 PM
Feb 2016

I have been confused for 35 years,but no more! I'm quitting the Democratic Socialists, since they have nothing to do with socialism. Then I'm quitting the Democratic Party, since they have nothing to do with democracy. Whew! I feel better. Thanks.

restorefreedom

(12,655 posts)
11. they know. and don't care. just another attempt
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:58 PM
Feb 2016

to exploit low info voters to gain votes that can't be attained by having good positions or policies.

fortunately, this cycle seems to have a high percentage of high info voters.

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
5. To quote the vice-chair of the Democratic Socialists of America.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:40 PM
Feb 2016

"When Bernie is asked, ‘Are you a socialist?’ he doesn't deny it, and he immediately talks about Scandinavia. He uses them interchangeably. But if you look at his history, he knows the distinction," Schwartz said.

Many Democratic Socialists use the term interchangeably for reasons beyond me, but none of them are socialists, and they know it...

You'll also note that he ALWAYS references Scandinavia, which has no socialist countries in it.

yodermon

(6,143 posts)
3. He is a Social Democrat. It is very clear.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 08:35 PM
Feb 2016
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

Social democracy is a political ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a capitalist economy, and a policy regime involving welfare state provisions, collective bargaining arrangements, regulation of the economy in the general interest, measures for income redistribution, and a commitment to representative democracy.[1][2][3] Social democracy thus aims to create the conditions for capitalism to lead to greater egalitarian, democratic and solidaristic outcomes; and is often associated with the set of socioeconomic policies that became prominent in Western and Northern Europe—particularly the Nordic model in the Nordic countries—during the latter half of the 20th century.

Gothmog

(142,961 posts)
14. OCT 11 2015, 11:50 AM ET Meet the Press Transcript - October 11, 2015
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:02 PM
Feb 2016

Last edited Mon Feb 8, 2016, 11:37 PM - Edit history (1)

Sanders has given the GOP and the Kochs plenty of material to use http://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/meet-press-transcript-october-11-2015-n442476

CHUCK TODD:

Alright, you joked about the idea when people call you a socialist, you say, "Yes, I'm going to make everybody wear the same color pajamas."

BERNIE SANDERS:

Especially you.

CHUCK TODD:

Especially me?

BERNIE SANDERS:

I have a pair of pajamas just for you.

CHUCK TODD:

I hear you. And then the other day I noticed you said, "You know what? Don't use the word 'Socialist.' I'm going to say I'm a progressive." Are you pushing back on that idea? Or are you embrace "I'm a European Socialist."

BERNIE SANDERS:

No, no not at all, it's not a question of-- look. When one of your Republican colleagues gets on the show, do you say, "Are you a capitalist?" Have you ever referred to them as capitalists?

CHUCK TODD:

Yeah. Are you a capitalist?

BERNIE SANDERS:

No. I'm a Democratic Socialist. But what I mean is I've been elected as an Independent throughout my political career. I am running now in the Democratic nomination process and will support-- I hope to win, I expect to win, but--

EdwardBernays

(3,343 posts)
15. Democratic Socialists aren't socialists
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:08 PM
Feb 2016

In the same way a moon pie is neither the moon or a pie.

Socialist believe in social ownership. Bernie does not.

Gothmog

(142,961 posts)
23. Why Bernie Sanders isnít going to be president, in five words
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 11:49 PM
Feb 2016

The attack ads from this appearance on Meet the Press write themselves https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/10/12/why-bernie-sanders-isnt-going-to-be-president-in-5-words/

Meet the Press ✔ @meetthepress
CHUCK TODD: Are you a capitalist?@BernieSanders: No. I'm a Democratic Socialist.
8:33 AM - 11 Oct 2015

And, in those five words, Sanders showed why — no matter how much energy there is for him on the liberal left — he isn't getting elected president.

Why? Because Democrat or Republican (or independent), capitalism remains a pretty popular concept — especially when compared to socialism. A 2011 Pew Research Center survey showed that 50 percent of people had a favorable view of capitalism, while 40 percent had an unfavorable one. Of socialism, just three in 10 had a positive opinion, while 61 percent saw it in a negative light.

Wrote Pew in a memo analyzing the results:

Of these terms, socialism is the more politically polarizing — the reaction is almost universally negative among conservatives, while generally positive among liberals. While there are substantial differences in how liberals and conservatives think of capitalism, the gaps are far narrower.

...The simple political fact is that if Sanders did ever manage to win the Democratic presidential nomination — a long shot but far from a no shot at this point — Republicans would simply clip Sanders's answer to Todd above and put it in a 30-second TV ad. That would, almost certainly, be the end of Sanders's viability in a general election.

Americans might be increasingly aware of the economic inequality in the country and increasingly suspicious of so-called vulture capitalism — all of which has helped fuel Sanders's rise. But we are not electing someone who is an avowed socialist to the nation's top political job. Just ain't happening.

You can try to argue that the two terms are not the same but that will not stop the Kochs from running $200 milion to $300 million using that term in negative ads that would be very effective.
 

Cheese Sandwich

(9,086 posts)
19. Drop him in water if he floats he's a socialist
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:52 PM
Feb 2016

It's right up there with trying to figure out if somebody is a true Christian. You have no idea what's going on in his head.

His policies are progressive or social democratic, very mainstream American.

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
20. Nor does he believe in dialectical materialism
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:52 PM
Feb 2016

I've met very few self-professed socialists who actually believe that, for that matter...

 

Fast Walker 52

(7,723 posts)
21. it's such an insane argument anyway-- as if "socialist" is such a naughty, dirty thing
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 09:57 PM
Feb 2016

I actually love the idea of supporting someone who is popular who carries a term reviled by the establishment so much.

Gregorian

(23,867 posts)
22. There are lots of Socialisms. According to Richard Wolff, the definition is continually changing.
Mon Feb 8, 2016, 11:12 PM
Feb 2016

It doesn't take much change to turn what we have into more of a democratic socialist arrangement.

The bottom line is everybody having more say in their livelihood; starting the process of a workplace that is owned and run by workers. That's about it.

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