2016 Postmortem
Related: About this forumHillary is fracturing the party.
She is alienating millions. And it is all so needless.
They won't vote for her.
I completely understand why.
Empowerer
(3,900 posts)mean that Sanders is fracturing the party more than she is?
Of course, your whole premise is ridiculous, but let's have a little fun with it anyway . . .
Metric System
(6,048 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Very few independent voters trust her.
jmowreader
(50,557 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)By 0.2% of Iowa caucus voters?
By superdelegates who have no obligation to stick to their endorsements?
Because no one has voted. Polls don't count. Did you know? But if you think they do, then you're out of luck, because the latest show them in a tie. Nationwide.
zentrum
(9,865 posts)
had a single opponent and should have been coronated?
Actually he's beating her in national polls against all Republicans.
Spitfire of ATJ
(32,723 posts)There are young Republicans who wish they were old enough to vote against Bill. Do you honestly believe they'll miss the opportunity to slam down that "R" against Hillary?
Metric System
(6,048 posts)out immediately.
cali
(114,904 posts)fit it. And her negative campaigning and smearing and lying won't help her in the general.
Metric System
(6,048 posts)intersectionality
(106 posts)And promptly dismantled 40 years of feminist thought. I'm not really sure why people are having a difficult time grasping what "fracture" means.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)Gloria Steinem...I just don't think her mind is working well at 81, and Albright...no surprise there.
trueblue2007
(17,218 posts)truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)juxtaposed
(2,778 posts)Lancero
(3,003 posts)On Sun Feb 7, 2016, 06:54 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
What are you babbling about? Some of you Sanders supporters would only be satisfied if she dropped
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=1168856
REASON FOR ALERT
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS
Babbling? That is OTT rudeness in response to a civil op. This is the kind of behavior that is making DU suck hard lately, and only juries can do anything about it.
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Feb 7, 2016, 07:01 PM, and the Jury voted 0-7 to LEAVE IT.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: You set the bait out Cali, don't be surprised when someone bites.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't much like what this poster is saying...but I believe s/he has a right to say it. Leave it alone.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I support Bernie, but if the word "babbling" is enough to warrant a hide, it's not worth being here. Leave it.
Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.
mak3cats
(1,573 posts)...so never let it be said that all Bernie supporters are rabid attack dogs. (I prefer cats.)
Skittles
(153,160 posts)Armstead
(47,803 posts)Proud Liberal Dem
(24,412 posts)By that definition, maybe we should consider asking him to drop out as well to make room for a "new crop of Democrats"? /s
grasswire
(50,130 posts).....because she knows that she is too flawed to represent Democrats. All the money in the world won't replace integrity and transparency in a candidate.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)but as a human being who cares about peace on the planet, one can only hope her conscience awakens and she drops out tomorrow. Wasn't my idea, but since you have brought it up...
leveymg
(36,418 posts)She just can't help herself. It's in the script.
farleftlib
(2,125 posts)it probably won't ever come to that. The meltdown is only in its beginning stages.
Metric System
(6,048 posts)social media. Character assassination is what it is.
cali
(114,904 posts)kath
(10,565 posts)Rilgin
(787 posts)You post a zillion (well a slight exaggeration) posts a day in support of Hillary.
For the last few days I had an OP asking any Hillary supporter to give one justification for her Vote against a ban on the use of Cluster Munitions in civilian areas. It was a single purpose vote not mixed in with competing goals so is not a gotcha moment. It was just a vote on the use of Cluster Munitions which are a heinous weapon.
Lots of views but crickets from any Hillary Supporter. Why don't you take a crack at explaining to us Bernie supporters how her vote is consistent with being for women and children in the world and is a sign of good character.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12511140849
ThreeWayFanny
(80 posts)The United States shares in the international concern about the humanitarian impact of the indiscriminate use of all munitions, including cluster munitions. That is one of the reasons that it spends more than any other country to eliminate the risk to civilians from landmines and all explosive remnants of war, including unexploded cluster munitions.
Cluster munitions have demonstrated military utility. Their elimination from U.S. stockpiles would put the lives of its soldiers and those of its coalition partners at risk. Moreover, cluster munitions can often result in much less collateral damage than unitary weapons, such as a larger bomb or larger artillery shell would cause, if used for the same mission.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)And they don't care if she is a Margret Thatcher or what, just as long as she is a female.
It's single issue politics at it's best. So don't expect any concerns like that to be addressed.
tazkcmo
(7,300 posts)to have it assassinated. She IS a character or is that caricature?
Vote2016
(1,198 posts)her role and has doubled down on all of her 2008 weaknesses
Corey_Baker08
(2,157 posts)Old Codger
(4,205 posts)This time around will win in a landslide
Corey_Baker08
(2,157 posts)Vote2016
(1,198 posts)2016 it's still about her.
Clinton can blame her failures on a right-wing conspiracy, or bad on-the-ground intelligence data, or Obama, or demographics, or mean Sanders supporters, or sexism, or whatever, but the common element in every failure scenario is Clinton.
The tone of your post suggest that you don't think much of Sanders. If Sanders is such an unworthy opponent, then why is she not smoking him with a $uper PAC fundraising advantage and every establishment endorsement and the DNC tipping the balance in her favor at every opportunity?
The weak link is Clinton.
Clinton's campaign is about Clinton, while Sanders' campaign is about beliefs and those of us who share those beliefs. If Sanders had not run, but Elizabeth Warren ran on the same platform, Clinton would be in the same hole. If Clinton was not a triangulating status quo centrist, and -- instead -- she had been a dove and not a hawk and progressive like FDR or JFK or LBJ who didn't get "things" done but accomplished progressive goals and not someone whose ideology is falls somewhere between Nixon and Ford, then she would not be in the position she is in.
Clinton's weakness in 2008 and in 2016 was and is not because she faced and faces an unbeatable challenger in in either election. Clinton's weakness is Clinton and she's worse now than she was in 2008.
Old Codger
(4,205 posts)Nothing else matters really she is the be-all and end-all of her campaign win or lose it is on her...and since she didn't make the necessary changes since 08 it is way past the chance to do so now, just be more flip flopping
Corey_Baker08
(2,157 posts)In fact I have no doubt in my mind that he would make a better President than Hillary Clinton However I Can't Help But Think If He Is The Democratic Nominee We Run A Much Much Greater Risk Of A Republican Winning the White House...
I Think It's Respectable That Bernie Doesn't Have Nor Want A Super PAC, but I don't think it's very rational or plausible in 2016 that he could run a viable 50 state National Campaign against a Billionaire while only relying on small Campaign Contributions.
Listen, I Will Work My Heart Out For Whomever The Nominee Of The Democratic Party Is...
In My Opinion Though The Fact That The 45th President Will Be Responsible for Seating 3 or More Supreme Court Justices Scares the Hell Out Of Me At The Thought That It Could Actually Be A Republican Nominating Them & I Believe The Risks of That Becoming A Reality Will Increase Greatly If Sanders is our Nominee.
Don't Get Me Wrong I Like & Respect Bernie Sanders but his Campaign has some major holes in it. For one its great that young people like myself are participating in the primary elections and voting in droves for Bernie, But Unfortunately We've Been Through This Before, Will They Actually Show Up On Election Day? Again I Agree with Bernie Sanders that we need to End Citizens United & Reform Our Campaign Finance Laws which he has made a central theme in his Campaign, but with all due respect the poor, the middle class, the Working Class & Even The Youth Are Way More Worried About The Economy, Climate Change, Healthcare, Foreign Policy & Soo Much More, Its Not An Issue That Will Sway A Single Voter.
Also Yes It's Commendable That Bernie Sanders Doesn't Have Nor Want A Super PAC, It's Commendable That Bernie Sanders Refuses To Hold High Dollar Fundraisers Or Take A Single Cent From The Rich, While Its Commendable It's Certainly Not Rational When He Is Going To Be Running Against A Billionaire With Unlimited Money To Spend. You Can't Run A Winning National Campaign While Depending On Contributions That Average $27, not in this Election, Not in 2016, Not Until We End Citizens United & Have Real Campaign Finance Reform...
We Need A Candidate That Is Capable Of Running A 50 State Campaign Who Has The Funding & The Resources To Compete Against A Billionaire...
Binkie The Clown
(7,911 posts)OhZone
(3,212 posts)There aren't millions of Socialists waiting to see if a SOCIALIST could actually win a couple of states.
Rocky the Leprechaun
(222 posts)Trajan
(19,089 posts)That would be a shame, wouldn't it? ...
Maybe we can vote for John Birch ... He HATED those guys ...
Old Codger
(4,205 posts)Call in Iowa and really probably lost there and she is already on the ropes...She is a bye bye..
passiveporcupine
(8,175 posts)OhZone
(3,212 posts)Bernie is not Obama. There aren't as many people waiting to see if someone like him could actually win a state or two before voting for him.
in_cog_ni_to
(41,600 posts)believe Bernie WILL be the nominee, so HRH won't be "needing" any votes for anything.
She runs some if the dirtiest, filthiest, sleaziest campaigns I've ever seen and I've been voting a long, long time. Thankfully, Bernie expected this and is fully prepared for it. He's still standing.
PEACE
LOVE
BERNIE
MissDeeds
(7,499 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)And he's finally taken notice of the "Bernie Bros" this weekend, but unless he really makes an effort to reign that stuff in, it could be too little to late.
Lorien
(31,935 posts)I've seen very little nastiness come from *actual* Bernie supporters, but a lot come from Republicans who jump on to any post about Hillary. Hillary supporters have been arrogant and incredibly condescending from the beginning. If your candidate takes the primary, you'll have YOURSELVES to blame when she loses in the general election.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Like I said, this is a good first step, an indication that he does take it seriously, but he needs to do something more to put it to an end, or there really is a risk of dividing the party for the general election.
cali
(114,904 posts)he was smart to address it.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Hekate
(90,683 posts)Hekate
(90,683 posts)...to rein in his campaign staff and volunteers. They are the ones besmirching his name; no one else.
Lorien
(31,935 posts)for herself that might sway voters, she and her surrogates scold and threaten us. "No we can't" is NOT a good campaign slogan. Neither is "vote for me because I want to be the first female President! If you don't, then you just want a boy's attention and you'll burn in Hell!" or "You had better vote for me or you'll be stuck with President Trump!". Voters are DONE with the "lesser of evils" bullshit. We're not playing that game again. Make your case based on the issue and her platform, not just because you "like her", think it's "her turn", or have some twisted anti-feminist belief that a having a vagina automatically makes one a better option.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)It's preferable to everyone falling in line behind the Third Way.
It's time we ripped the mask of these impostors and expose them for the charlatans they are.
pa28
(6,145 posts)Ingrained corruption in the Democratic party and the fictional progressives who practice it are being forced into the open on a daily basis now.
We're watching a house cleaning and it never would have happened without Bernie's presence in this race.
Hekate
(90,683 posts)Lorien
(31,935 posts)to destroy the party from within by moving it to the right. Mission accomplished! It no longer resembles the party that I knew in the 1970s. So now REAL DEMOCRATS who are left of center will either have to take back the party or let it wither and decay while forming a new one. The pro corporate, anti-worker anti-environment agenda of the DLC isn't working for anyone but the 0.01%.
Hekate
(90,683 posts)As opposed to another candidate who's been a Dem for about 45 days.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)Here's the site: political compass.org
I'm curious: what is your criteria, and if you dare, what is your score?
Or do you only care about labels.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]
stillwaiting
(3,795 posts)We have to get Bernie the win in the primary.
It's the ONLY way we have a chance at the White House.
Hillary is not going to get the youth, independents, and after this primary some progressives won't be able to vote for her either.
I will HATE voting for her, but I will. I have always been able to get quite a number of votes for the Democratic candidate from friends and family in every prior election, but everyone that knows me already knows I don't trust HRC. They have already told me to not even try to get them to vote for her.
From my personal perspective, HRC doesn't have a chance.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)If the precious young of this country choose to stay home if Hillary wins the nomination, they can go and jump off a short pier. They can stomp their feet and run to the internet to spread their special brand of immature vitriol all they want.
Come election time, real Democrats and other people who care about this country will have a choice between two candidates with clear and distinct agendas. I will vote for the Democratic nominee, I'm mature enough to know that a Republican in the WH would be disastrous for the country. If people choose to cut their nose to spite themselves and sit on their hands or vote third party, so be it. I neither have college debt, plan on getting pregnant or lack health insurance. If these issues are so unimportant to the young, then they should suffer the consequences of sitting out an election because their candidate of choice didn't get nominated. In other words they need to grow up.
Metric System
(6,048 posts)they choose to sit out the general election.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)I fervently wanted Hillary to be the nominee in 2008, but it was obvious that Obama was the only choice once he clenched the nomination. Was I supposed to vote for McCain?
To state that they will stay home, be it the young or the "purists", is just lacking in political maturity. I refuse to beg anyone to vote for the nominee, but I have zero patience for people who are so selfish that they rather throw the presidency away because their candidate didn't win the nomination.
Bohemianwriter
(978 posts)Now, the establishment is doing yourt best to alienate them. And you expect their suport for your the republican lite Hillary after this attitude?
Keep dreaming!
You get much further with sugar than vinegar.
I think many will go 3rd party. They vote with their principles. They do not base their vote on partisanship, but on who will represent their interests the best. Hillary is clearly not that person.
As a veteran from her husband's little adventure in Yugoslavia, I cannot see any reason why anyone should support a candidate who have not been right once regarding the 4 wars in the Middle East the last 15 years, and think he or she will have it right the 5th time.
I will not endorse someone who are unwilling to go after war criminals. I doubt that Bernie will go after the Bushies, but it would be refreshing if he did. Unfortunately, he would have to after after the Clinton klan as well, since they do not have clean hands in these wars.
I do not endorse someone who's endorsement has a past where she thought that a half a million dead people (during Clinton's bomb campaign) was worth it stating that there is a special place in hell for Bernie supporters.
I do not endorse a candidate who has taken money from corporate donors and try to give the impression that she has YOUR interest at heart.
I do not endorse a candidate who is all about "me, me, I, me, I will I have been attacked, I am such a great bullshiter" kind of candidate.
I do not endorse a candidate who takes a stop in the campaign trail to have a fund raiser with people she wants to regulate next year.
I know it's disingenouos of me. I know what she did it for.
She went there to wag her finger at them! The money she raised was to buy one of those big foam hands that they sell at sporting events (do you know how much one of those costs at the stadium? (highway robbery I'm telling you, highway robbery) Once she has one of these foam hands, then she'll really be able to wag her finger.
I do not endorse a candidate that confuses facts with smear.
So why do you support Hillary, and why do you expect people's support after that littler self righteous moral tirade of yours?
From what I see, I see a middle class person without the struggles of the young, and you want them to vote more of the same that has led to this. You don't have hardships, and want the people you smear to vote for an elitist far removed from reality and in bed with Wall Street.
It's like asking OWS to vote for someone who's in bed with Wall Street. Do you feel comfortable voting for someone who has the same donor as Ted Cruz?
Sorry.
I have yet to see any tangeable argument for any vote for Hillary whatsoever.
?1438898746
Beacool
(30,247 posts)If I'm wrong and Sanders becomes the nominee, then I will vote for him in the general election. Would you rather see a Republican in the WH than vote for the party's nominee if it's not your candidate of choice? That's my point. To expect a candidate to stop running because young people prefer someone else, is ludicrous. The voting will trudge along until one or the other one wins enough pledged delegates. The young can choose what to do at that point. What more do you want me to say about it? I don't believe in pie in the sky promises and any agenda that requires a "political revolution" to come to fruition. I think that Sanders means well, but is an ideologue.
Bohemianwriter
(978 posts)If people insist on voting against their own interest and pissing on your alleged principles, then neither you or anyone who does similar deserve my respect nor my support.
Sorry. But if the establishment selects Hillary and you are her stooges as minions, I will become a Carlinist full time and hope that my own book about your dirty wars will create enough havoc in itself and pray to St. George that whomever gets to become boss creates disasters that is long due. I think it's about time you people should deal with the consequences of voting for neo-liberals who has been instrumental in creating havoc in the Middle East.
Because that's when I will lose my faith in humanity.
Hillary, like any other republican makes me lose faith in humanity. And you're not helping.
Kind regards
A veteran and writer
If Bernie doesn't win, I'm sort of curious about what kind of dystopian society you will create with corporatist A or corporatist B.
RufusTFirefly
(8,812 posts)He doesn't know his place.
Why doesn't he just step aside and let corporate America take over?
You can trust them. They're experts!
TIME TO PANIC
(1,894 posts)Not only has she run an unethical campaign, but she is also far to the right of the democratic base.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)reformist2
(9,841 posts)CharlotteVale
(2,717 posts)Hekate
(90,683 posts)muriel_volestrangler
(101,316 posts)Neither candidate is 'fracturing the party'. It's just supporters who want to say anything to get their name down as a real important partisan.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)Sanders' supporters saying that Hillary is fracturing the party. He's the Johnny-come-lately to the party. Hillary has been a registered Democrat since the late 60s. I'm not going to take advice about party unity from a supporter of the guy who just joined the party 5 minutes ago out of political expediency.
Ahhh, this place gets crazier and crazier by the day.
Hydra
(14,459 posts)But as one of the best faces of the Establishment, she certainly highlights why our party is failing most of its members and why the rift has opened between the out of touch DLC monied members and the rest of us who have to work for a living.
taught_me_patience
(5,477 posts)Seems more like projection to me.
mythology
(9,527 posts)We get it. You don't like Clinton. But it would show more effort and conviction if you could even be bothered to post something that vaguely attempts to support your post. Without that, I suspect it's just what you want to believe.
jalan48
(13,865 posts)If Elizabeth Warren had been the nominee just think how united Democrats would be. But then, she wasn't the corporate choice and never will be.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)blame for even the way she breathes and her voice since republicans went after Obama.
Metric System
(6,048 posts)because it's all true. You can't reason with that kind of hatred.
MariaThinks
(2,495 posts)opposed to hating the people who have destroyed the water shows me what they are really after. It may not be for a better country.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,412 posts)The hate and vitriol being spewed against Hillary by some Sanders supporters here and elsewhere is OTT/unwarranted IMHO. I can get why some people might have a bone to pick with her or why they might want Sanders to win instead but still..............
Dawgs
(14,755 posts)Maybe you're okay with that stance. Many of us aren't.
So disappointed in all of the arguing. Be a Democrat.
I actually believe that Bernie Sanders represents my perception of what a true Liberal should be. I don't think that Hillary Clinton is evil, or should be discounted. On the contrary. She's served the public for most of her adult life. She deserves my/our respect.
I will be voting for Bernie Sanders in the primaries. If he wins, I believe he will win the general election, and I believe that he will be a great president.
If Hillary wins the nomination, I will gladly support my parties candidate and I will vote for her. I don't believe her interests are in line with the majority of Americans, but she would, in that scenario be my candidate, so I would gladly vote for her in the General election.
The bickering is getting old.
loyalsister
(13,390 posts)A lot of help that will be when people refuse to vote at all if she's nominated. For so many people, her candidacy will make them feel like nothing will change. The disaffected Obama voters want nothing to do with a candidate who was in his administration, and has ties to wall street accompanied by the "dead broke" assertion.
She does not understand how much people are hurting. In my area, we have 3% unemployment and 19% poverty. She has not given any indication that those voices matter to her.
I think it is foolish to not vote for the Democrat or to not vote at all, but I am not feeling the economic strains a lot of other people feel.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)to attract voters.
i.e. "The left swiftboated her"
and/or
"The left sat the election out".
Laughable as that is you can count on hearing it.
wouldsman
(94 posts)Sanders gives us the chance to bring in lots of new energy. Build the party of the future.
razorman
(1,644 posts)Metric System
(6,048 posts)Skittles
(153,160 posts)Chico Man
(3,001 posts)Skittles
(153,160 posts)gawd, ENOUGH already
I am referring to the hysterical hatred of Hillary
Hekate
(90,683 posts)Beacool
(30,247 posts)DU, mirror image of Free Republic. Same extremes, same purity tests, different party.
Bohemianwriter
(978 posts)"We must do this together"!?
The only thing we hear from MSM is how they discard Bernie Sanders as a socialist (and leave out Democratic).
Whenever I hear "liberal media", I hear RW talk.
When I saw how different Cuomo treated Bernie and Hillary, and not a cricket from Hillary supporters, only whining, it makes me wonder.
And now we get the ad hominems as well and must bow down to the will of over sensitive Hillary supporters who thinks that pointing out the systemic corruption and ties with Wall Street is a smear campaign against Hillary.
My sympathies to civilian Hillary and her supporters whom unlike Bernie supporters have had such a hard life and feel that their personal integrity being attacked.
Sort of makes bullets from wars given to you by Clinton and Bush since 1990 flying around seem like a walk in the park, doesn't it?
I'm sorry. But to feel sympathy with people who seem to live in your bubble of privilege and entitlement and smear the only honest candidate and his supporters is very, very hard.
So tell us, do you think that Bernie Sanders have been given a fair treatment by MSM and CNN in comparison to Hillary?
And why do you feel entitled to attack Bernie supporters? Is it because there is nothing you can attack Bernie himself on?
Response to cali (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Rocky the Leprechaun
(222 posts)Signed, soon to be former Democrat.
Hekate
(90,683 posts)Think carefully about your answer.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)trueblue2007
(17,218 posts)Bernie is the fracture.
Beacool
(30,247 posts)This place is like a parallel world. Hillary is the Democrat who has been a member of the party for decades. A man who ran against Democrats, who relished being an Independent, who refused for years to join the party is not considered to be the person fracturing the Democratic party. It's Hillary. On this board, top is bottom and left is right.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)Independents.
So the only people who may be alienated by not all Dems worshipping at his feet were never really Dems.
Solid party members will vote for the nominee and will not be fractured off, no matter who wins.
SunSeeker
(51,554 posts)HassleCat
(6,409 posts)It was dumb when someone posted that about Sanders, yes, but let's not reply in kind. It amounts to, "I know you are, but what am I?"
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)Eko
(7,293 posts)for that far right rag you should apply to. Bravo!
bigtree
(85,996 posts)...considering the campaign here among supporters to force a wedge between Democrats.
Too funny.
Chico Man
(3,001 posts)Soon to be Bernie Babies
Agnosticsherbet
(11,619 posts)which is normal for revolutions, by rejecting a big tent that includes a wide range of political beliefs for a smaller, ideologically pure lean-to.
Ferd Berfel
(3,687 posts)when they sold it to the Koch bros and the others in the oligarchy
glinda
(14,807 posts)the nomination. To me the state of the Planet and its wildlife and non-human life forms are passing away before my very eyes and Republicans will just put the final nail in the coffin faster. I do not believe HRC shares my concerns on this either but overall she is not as extreme as them. I get it when people say they will not vote and let it all be damned but it makes me so sad......because I know it is a lot of people saying this.
I hope for the sake of the Party, the Planet and my heart that she will care enough to step aside. I can hope but.....
eridani
(51,907 posts)ViseGrip
(3,133 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)We're grown-up enough not to panic as the sight of multiple candidates. This is what it's like in the years we're not just trying to reelection a president.
Clinton IS the party, and so is Sanders.