Religion
Related: About this forumVirginia Women Ordained As Catholic Priests Against The Will Of The Church
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/25/virginia-women-ordained-catholic-priests_n_3497256.htmlBy Will Wrigley
Posted: 06/25/2013 2:39 pm EDT | Updated: 06/25/2013 2:39 pm EDT
When your religion says you cannot do something because of your gender, do it anyway.
At least that is what five Catholic women in Falls Church, Va. did on Saturday when they were ordained as priests and deacons -- against the rules of the Roman Catholic church that sees ordaining women as heresy -- according to WJLA.
"In the theologically grounded tradition the priesthood passes through man. The woman has another function in Christianity," Pope Francis wrote in his first book, "On Heaven and Earth." But that didn't stop women like Joleane Presley of Manassas from joining fellow female Catholics at the First Christian Church to be ordained, just like men.
Presley and the other ordained women are part of the growing Association of Roman Catholic Women Priests, a movement within the Catholic church that espouses "full equality for all within the Church as a matter of justice and faithfulness to the Gospel," and in order to do so, oversees the ordination of female priests, deacons and bishops.
more at link, including video
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)But they can call themselves Roman Catholic "priests" until they turn blue, and it still won't make them Roman Catholic priests. Why they feel the need to go through this silly charade is a mystery (or is that a MysterY?), and frankly a little sad, too.
EvilAL
(1,437 posts)but she can't do anything but hand the priest stuff, claims it as a victory. Maybe she is right, she gets to be up there, but she can't do any ceremonies or fuck all, it's a start? I don't fuckin know, it's just weird.
okasha
(11,573 posts)This is exactly how the change began in the Episcopal Church.
Same do-it-anyway tactic, same misogynist blowback, same eventual change.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)That's worked like a charm to change fundamental doctrine in the RCC for centuries.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)The church really responded to them!
trotsky
(49,533 posts)They've just ex-communicated themselves by their actions.
Now if they would take their talents to a more tolerant, welcoming church, they'd have a more serious impact on the institution that desperately needs to change.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)equality. Out automatically. Of course it sounds more impressive in the secret language of God.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Rape some children, you get protected and relocated.
Cover up the rapes of untold numbers of children, get a free trip to Italy and protection from prosecution for your crimes for the rest of your life.
Witness the Mystery of the holy church.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)It's a nice stunt and all, but it won't change the RCC one iota.
Now if they went and formed their own church. Or joined one that already existed that fit their views.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)they want to be priests in THE Catholic Church. The irony of course being that the refusal to ordain women is one of the things that makes it THE Catholic Church, and if that changed, it would no longer be the Catholic Church that they're so enamored with.
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)It has as much relevance as if I had a friend "swear me in" and then claim I'm now the President.
If these women want to be priests, then they ought to leave the RCC behind and join a non-discriminatory denomination (like maybe the one of the church that hosted this for example.)
cbayer
(146,218 posts)I consider those that openly challenge the status quo to push for that change heroes.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)The RCC is not a democratic organization. The hierarchy is designed to not allow for change from within. Those that pick the new leader are chosen by the old leader.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)if those 59% went and joined the Episcopal Church - a church that shares so much with the RCC except for its archaic anti-progressive stances - the RCC would have no choice but to change immediately, or collapse.
Instead, by remaining in the RCC and giving their time and money to it, they are helping strengthen the institution that they are trying to change. How's that been working out so far? The new guy treats women and homosexuals the same way the last one did. And the one before that. And the one before that...
okasha
(11,573 posts)whose knees hit their front teeth every time the Catholic Church is mentioned, these women should not leave the RCC.
What needs to happen instead is that the 59% of Catholics who support the ordination of women need to form congregations and invite the women priests to be their pastors. That would get the hierarchy's attention real fast while encouraging more women to answer the call to ordination.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)It's rather Dan Quixote-ish to think that the RCC will actually be taken down.
But change can happen, imo and my hat is off to those trying to do it.
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)The Roman Catholic hierarchy would never recognize these congregations or new churches as Catholic, taking them out of communion with the Vatican, and making them something else.
There is an "Independent Catholic" church near me (The closest "Catholic" church of any type in fact, I live in the type of neighborhood where ranked by how numerous they are the ranking would probably be: 1-open homosexuals, 2-Republicans, 3-white Catholics) that has married and female priests, but they don't claim to be Roman Catholic or part of the same church as the Vatican. I don't think the hierarchy really gives a shit about this church or is too bothered, considering that they're just a drop in the bucket out there. Still I'll give them credit for actually splitting and not just making meaningless noise. If these women want to go found a church good for them. But it's not going to be a Roman Catholic church.
okasha
(11,573 posts)n/t
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Your rather lame attempt at dismissal notwithstanding. These women are "ordained" only in their own minds, and not in any way that is meaningful, or that should be meaningful to them.
As I said, pretty sad.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)Hoisting up their own flag on their property, declaring themselves an independent state, refusing to get their vehicle licensed, etc.
I'm sure they think their actions are special and meaningful, and their fellow nutjobs cheer them on, but in the end they are still in the USA and so is their land and they're still subject to all the same laws.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)are challenging hierarchies from within.
okasha
(11,573 posts)the "cute" little "nutjobs" and "loons" who are pushing for reform in the RCC?
A new low for sexism on DU.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)or perhaps
cbayer
(146,218 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)Those of us commenting on the futility of this act aren't demeaning the women at all. We have suggested they truly empower themselves and LEAVE THE ROTTEN FUCKING SEXIST CHURCH that made it necessary to do this stunt in the first place.
Disgraceful and dishonest, cbayer. You should be above this.
okasha
(11,573 posts)And the rest of us wimminz just need to accept that "cute" is the highest praise a man can offer to women struggling for equality. That and comparing them to "nutjob" and "wacko" right wing secessionists.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)for restricting their desire to be ordained to an organization that would not longer resemble the organization they want to be ordained by if it DID ordain them. But I won't. I'll limit myself to being amused by this rather silly and uselss stunt, and point out that there are plenty of churches where they could fulfill a desire to use their gifts as true members of the clergy, if only they had the courage.
Your trying to make this a sexist issue, in the face of the true and fundamental sexism practiced by the RCC basically forever, is really rich. But about what I'd expect from you any more.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)You should stop doing it.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)of intellectually dishonest crap with a straight face? And do you think anyone swallows it, other than...well, you know.
Goblinmonger
(22,340 posts)If those 60% that you claim left the RCC and stopped giving it their time and money, the RCC would crumble. That is the ONLY way that hierarchy will meaningfully change.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)The women aren't actually priests and will not be recognized as such by the hierarchy.
In fact, as I pointed out, they have officially ex-communicated themselves with this act. Why not leave the church entirely and find one that embraces the same principles they do?
More importantly, why are the people pointing this out so worthy of being attacked by you and others?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)There are many denominations that ordain women like my church does.
cbayer
(146,218 posts)Change can happen, even within the RCC.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)in the 20th century the Catholic Church changed fundamental doctrine because enough members wanted them to. Or the 19th. Or the 18th. Then tell us again what we "fail to see"
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)In my denomination Bishops decided to go ahead and ordain women to show the national church it can be done and a few years later the national church followed suit.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)You know perfectly well that's not what I said, not what I meant and not what I advocate, so I'm baffled why you would even inject that idea into the conversation. Care to explain?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)If I am wrong I am sorry but that is how you came off to me.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)you claim I'm advocating that they "shut up and be silent" about the whole thing, forever? Unbelievable.
There are all kinds of ways to send a message, in case you hadn't noticed.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I meant should they not bother getting ordained.
trotsky
(49,533 posts)But they'll have to leave the Catholic Church to do so, because they are not in any way ordained right now. They should join a church that embraces everyone.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)trotsky
(49,533 posts)I hope that others making such an unfounded and insulting accusation are appropriately ashamed.
Though I certainly would never expect an apology.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Have democratic assemblies where people chosen from the membership have a vote on church policies?
That would be...all of them. And the RCC is not one such. So what was your point again?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)It may take another hundred years but people still need to raise hell.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Answer: None.
Try again, and this time address the question that was really asked, instead of more lame deflection.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Y&es you got me on that but it does not mean it won't happen.
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)could start popping out of my navel tomorrow. I don't have a history of it, but that doesn't mean it won't happen, right?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)skepticscott
(13,029 posts)It depends on what they really want, which is unclear, since even they don't seem to be sure.
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)Then their ordination will actually be recognized.