Muslims Are No Different, or Why Bill Maher’s Blood Libel Is Bigotry

[rug]

This piece originally appeared on Juan Cole’s Web page, Informed Comment.

Posted on Sep 24, 2012
By Juan Cole

Comedian Bill Maher puts himself in the company of “9/11 liberals” who believe that Islam as a religion is different and decidedly worse than all other religions. He said Friday that “at least half of all Muslims believe it is all right to kill someone who insults the Prophet.” His bad faith is immediately apparent in the reference to 9/11, not the work of mainstream Muslims but of a political cult whose members often spent their time in strip clubs.

Now, it may be objected that Maher has made a career of attacking all religions, and promoting irreverence toward them. So Islam is just one more target for him. But that tack wouldn’t entirely be true. He explicitly singles Islam out as more, much more homocidal than the other religions. He is personally unpleasant to his Muslim guests, such as Keith Ellison. His reaction to the youth of the Arab Spring gathering to try to overthrow their American-backed dictators was “the Arabs are revolting.” Try substituting “Jews” to see how objectionable that is.

Maher ironically has de facto joined an Islamophobic network that is funded by the Mellon Scaife Foundation and other philanthropies tied to the American Enterprise Institute, etc. which is mainly made up of evangelical Christians, bigoted American Jews who would vote for the Likud Party if they could, and cynical Republican businessmen and politicians casting about for something with which to frighten working class Americans into voting for them.

Maher is a consistent liberal and donated $1 million to the Obama campaign, so he is in odd company in targeting Muslims this way. So what explains this animus against Muslims in particular? The only thing he has in common with the Islamophobic Right is his somewhat bloodthirsty form of militant Zionism. He strongly supported the Israeli attack on helpless little Lebanon in 2006, in which the Israelis dropped a million cluster bombs on the farms of the south of that country. He talks about how the besieged Palestinians of Gaza deserve to be “nuked.” His interviews with Likudnik Israeli officials are typically fawning, unlike his combative style with other right wing guests.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/muslims_are_no_different_or_why_bill_mahers_blood_libel_is_bigotry_20120924/

Juan R.I. Cole is the Richard P. Mitchell Collegiate Professor of History at the University of Michigan. He has written extensively on modern Islamic movements in Egypt, the Persian Gulf and South Asia and has given numerous media interviews on the war on terrorism and the Iraq War. He lived in various parts of the Muslim world for nearly 10 years and continues to travel widely there. He speaks Arabic, Farsi and Urdu.

http://www.truthdig.com/juan_cole#bio

[cbayer]

1. He's also a sexist. I have absolutely no use for him.

[Bluenorthwest]

2. Yeah, I don't much care for Juan Cole either.

nt

[cbayer]

3. I am not as familiar with him, though I have likely heard

him speak on these issues on news shows.

[Voice for Peace]

29. I don't think he's been on a lot of live media, I'm not sure

but he's a middle eastern scholar and I've found his
Informed Comment blog to be very insightful and
helpful at times.

Plus he's got an original ongoing translation of the
Rubaiyat by Omar Khayyam
http://www.juancole.com/2012/09/omar-khayyam-186-wine-educates-the-soul.html

[cbayer]

30. Thanks for the info. Will check out his site.

[patrice]

4. k, but of the 2, Cole is the super-expert on Islam, with his professional reputation on the line

whenever he says anything about them.

[cpwm17]

5. That's why I stay away from Bill Maher

I despise him for this reason. I've seen him say some truly obscene racist things about Arabs. He's hard-core in his Zionism.

A lot of his anti-religion shtick is just a reflection of his religious bigotry rather than a dislike of religion in general. He's transparent.

[Oregonian]

6. Maher was kicked off of ABC

For saying that the terrorists on 9/11 possessed more courage than those who fire cruise missiles from the Persian Gulf into Islamic villages. I don't think the man is as racist and islamophobic as you say. What he has to say about the beliefs of Islam are not disparaging, and they are not bigotry: They are simply fact. 1/2 of Muslims DO believe that infidels must be killed for insulting the prophet.

He's right. Not all religions are created equal. Islam, by and large, calls for the extermination of Jews, and Israel. Population of Muslims in the world? 1.6 billion. Population of Jews? 13 million. I hardly see where the Arabs are being bullied here.

[rug]

7. "1/2 of Muslims DO believe that infidels must be killed for insulting the prophet."

Capitalizing "DO" does not establish a fact.

[Oregonian]

8. Fair enough

But do you seriously doubt the veracity of that statement, keeping in mind that over half of Muslims live in the 3rd world, are educated from birth (if educated at all) by fundamentalist Imams, and that the Koran explicitly instructs this?

[rug]

9. I do.

In addition, I doubt:

That living in the third world (an increasingly archaic term) ipso facto tends one to homicide;

That half of Muslims (I can't even begin to discern a non-privileged meaning to your phrase "if educated at all&quot , are taught by fundamentalists;

That the Qur'an explicitly and literally requires murdering infidels.

Stereotypes are the food of bigotry. I remember what he said about 9/11 and how dangerous it was to say it then. I applaud him for saying it. But here, at least, he's falling into false stereotypes.

[Oregonian]

10. Then we disagree

Yes, I am "privileged" to have the education I have (as are you). I don't shy away from that. It's not a phrase meant to demean the underprivileged.

This is the first I've heard of the "3rd world" being thought of as some kind of slur, or, uh..."archaic" term. I never said it tends one to homicide, but it certainly tends one to poverty, hunger, desperation, and therefore the willingness to cling to a, perhaps irrational, set of ideals so long as bread or acceptance comes with it.

The Koran most explicitly and literally requires mudering of infidels.

Quran (8:59-60) - "And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah's Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape. Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy."

Quran (8:15) - "O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. (16)Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless maneuvering for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end."

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."


There are many, many more. I'm really having a hard time discerning the metaphor in all this hate. Even the old testament has to quiver in fear of the level of anger spewed by the Koran.

Maher's words are not an attack on Muslims, they're an attack on Islam -- and belief in general. And I think he's 100% right.

[rug]

11. The third world as a term has been meaningless since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

What's left is the connotation that it is the domain of the illterate, the impoverished and the uneducated.

My comment about privilege had nothing to do with education and everything to do with Western privilege.

Regarding interpretation, here's a start.

http://islamlib.com/en/article/the-urgency-of-the-perpetual-and-plural-interpretation-of-the-quran

Anyone who says half of Muslims would kill infidels is not talking about an idea or belief - in general - but is talking about people, in this case, a half billion people. It's ignorant bigotry.

[Oregonian]

12. That is not what Maher said

He said half of Muslims "think it is okay" to kill someone who insults the prophet. He didn't say half of muslims are murderers. He's talking about their philosophy. As in "do you think the penalty should be death for those who insult the holy prophet?" If they answer "yes", they pass the test. It's not about claiming that half of them would seek us out with a knife and slit our throats. You are impugning words that were not there. That's not stereotyping Maher, that's blatant intellectual dishonesty.

Of course the 3rd world is the domain -- relative to the industrialized nations -- of the illiterate, impoverished and uneducated. There are exceptions within the 3rd world, but this is simply fact. I understand that "3rd world" was a Cold War-era term, but its usage today is still applicable, as anyone knows what you're talking about when you mention it. Do you somehow feel that if we come up with a different designation for Pakistan, China, El Salvador, Honduras, Mexico, Burm and Sudan they will all of a sudden have potable water, compulsory education and democracy?

Yes, "interpretation" of the Koran is nice. Similarly, you could "interpret" that God did not repeatedly and indiscriminately wipe out hundreds of thousands of men, women and children in the Old Testament -- and then declare himself almighty, merciful and infallible -- but that wouldn't make it true.

[rug]

13. Oh bullshit.

[Oregonian]

14. LMAO, nice concession speech

Good to know I wasn't dealing with a serious person. Makes it easier to ignore you.

[rug]

17. That was all I had time for before I had to deal with someone with a pressing matter.

Now you have my full attention.

Before you go all Dewey, this why it's bullshit.

In your Islamophobic rant, you poorly try to say a half billion religious believers have no problem with killing a blasphemer, due to their Islamic beliefs, as if that baseless slander is somehow better. That is precisely why your post contains large amounts of bullshit.

I will leave your neocolonial claptrap about less developed countries as a testament to Western privilege.

[Oregonian]

18. Apparently you don't know what the fuck you're talking about

Neo-colonial claptrap? Since when is recognizing that conditions are bad in the 3rd world "neocolonial" claptrap?

And you misquoted be again, because I never said "a half billion religious believers have no problem with killing a blasphemer." There's a big chasm between killing someone, and thinking they deserve to die. The Koran commands killing infidels, and pronounces death for those who insult the prophet. This is simply fact. The idea that hundreds of millions of people who are brainwashed by the Koran in the 3rd world believe this is not far-fetched.

You can stick your head in the wet concrete of political correctness, or you can recognize reality. Up to you.

[rug]

19. "He said half of Muslims "think it is okay" to kill someone who insults the prophet."

As I said, bullshit.

[Oregonian]

20. And you have zero basis to call bullshit

Yeah, it was an assertion, but there's plenty of evidence to back it up. Pew has even done a poll of muslims, and determined that few, if any, waiver from literal belief in the one true god/holy prophet doctrine.

http://www.pewforum.org/Muslim/the-worlds-muslims-unity-and-diversity-executive-summary.aspx

The majority of Sub-Saharan African muslims, Southeas Asian Muslims, Central Asian Muslims, South Asian muslims, and Middle Eastern Muslims believe in a "single interpretation" of the Koran.



You can say "bullshit" over and over and over, but it -- to paraphrase you -- doesn't establish it as fact.

[rug]

21. Show the evidence.

Here's your claim:

"He said half of Muslims "think it is okay" to kill someone who insults the prophet."

That's not even a question in the Pew survey.

An assertion without evidence is, as I've heard, bullshit. In this case, it's bigoted, Islamophobic bullshit.

[Oregonian]

22. You can't connect the dots?

It's a straight line. 60-90% of muslims (depending on where you are) in the populated Islamic areas claim there is a "single interpretation" to the Koran. The Koran orders the death of infidels, and orders the death of those who insult the prophet. That's the "single interpretation."

What other evidence do you need? Pakistan aiming nukes at India? Done. 9/11? Done. Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon and Iran demanding the destruction of Israel with huge popular support? Done.

Evidence seems clear to me, but you're intent on the John Lennon/Stevie Wonder "we are the world" view where all people are just as clear-headed as the suave Muslim protagonist in a Tony Scott terrorism film. Delude yourself all you want.

[rug]

23. There you go. Let it all hang out. Post the video too.

But kindly leave John and Stevie out of it.

[Oregonian]

24. What "pressing matter" do you have now?

Haven't noticed an increase in your intellect when you provide me with your full attention, that's why I'm asking.

[rug]

25. As a matter of fact, a woman will be here shortly to talk to me about her daughter who is in jail.

Don't you have some mosques to correct, some third world nations to enlighten?

[Oregonian]

26. Is this pouting?

Never said I'm enlightened, but I have yet to scream for the head of someone over a bad movie trailer.

[rug]

32. No, you just slander a half billion people.

[Oregonian]

65. It's not slander (did you mean libel?) if it's true

[rug]

73. Actually, slander is spoken and libel is printed so it must be libel.

Primarily because it's not true.

[sabrina 1]

52. 60% to 90% of Christians if asked, would say the same thing about the Old Testament,

that there is a single interpretation of it. So, what has that got to do with claiming that half a billion people agree that 'infidels' should be killed? They haven't been very successful at it. We otoh, have been far more successful at killing them, haven't we?

We have thousands of right wing radio hosts hourly calling for the elimination of Muslims here.

Ann Coulter, one of the more rational of our fundy types 'invade their countries and convert or kill them'. And we did! She wasn't kidding! And we give HER a platform on a national Sunday Political Show. What does that say about the Judeo/Christian United States of America?

You have yet to prove your assertions. But you have highlighted the problem we have here in the US with this kind of bigotry, most of it coming from so-called Christians and sadly, many of their fantasies about killing Muslims have been realized. See Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Pakistan where the killing continues.

[Nina7777]

37. There is evidence of something very similar

Hi, this is my first post at DU. I wanted to post because my Master's thesis was actually on this topic.

Though Pew never asked if people think its ok to kill someone to insults the prophet, they had a question assessing a similar attitude about execution as a punishment for leaving the Muslim religion. Now, note that this question was very specifically worded to ask for support for enacting a law in the present day in the respondent's country. You can see results here:

http://pewresearch.org/databank/dailynumber/?NumberID=1184

It's actually not 50%, but an overwhelming majority- over 75% even in some countries that supported execution for people who were born muslim that chose to leave their religion.

Pew surveys are conducted in a number of regional languages and try to sample people from all over these countries to get a representative sample.

Given the strong support for other draconian measures in a number of Muslim majority countries, I would not at all be surprised if more than 50% of Muslims actually do support death for anyone who insults their prophet. The question has not yet been asked. I hope Pew asks this question for the future Global attitudes study, so we don't have to argue about which one of us is actually holding the inaccurate stereotypes.

[rug]

38. Welcome to DU!

Do you have a pdf of your thesis?

[Nina7777]

41. Yes, do you want it?

Seriously, I would cry tears of joy if any person aside from my thesis advisor ever reads that thing.

[rug]

43. I'd like to read it.

Religions and religious beliefs are a great avocation of mine.

Be careful about revealing your name though unless it's already on the web.

[Nina7777]

44. I dont have a link to it

Do you have some address where I can send it?

[rug]

46. I sent you DUmail.

I don't know how many posts you need to receive or send DU email but if you don't get it, just send me DUmail when you have enough posts and I'll resend it.

Thanks. I know theses require an inordinate amount of work for a limited audience.

[sabrina 1]

34. That proves the opposite of what you claimed:

The world’s 1.6 billion Muslims are united in their belief in God and the Prophet Muhammad and are bound together by such religious practices as fasting during the holy month of Ramadan and almsgiving to assist people in need. But they have widely differing views about many other aspects of their faith, including how important religion is to their lives, who counts as a Muslim and what practices are acceptable in Islam, according to a worldwide survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life.

The survey, which involved more than 38,000 face-to-face interviews in over 80 languages, finds that in addition to the widespread conviction that there is only one God and that Muhammad is His Prophet, large percentages of Muslims around the world share other articles of faith, including belief in angels, heaven, hell and fate (or predestination). While there is broad agreement on the core tenets of Islam, however, Muslims across the 39 countries and territories surveyed differ significantly in their levels of religious commitment, openness to multiple interpretations of their faith and acceptance of various sects and movements.

Where does this study back your claim that half of all Muslims believe that anyone who doesn't believe what they believe should be killed?

This study could be about Christians, who basically believe the same things. And there certainly are Christians who think all Muslims should be killed for being non-believers. Worse, those 'Christians' actually have gone and killed over one million Muslims when Bush went on his 'crusade' to Iraq.

Many of our very own Christian warriors including some of our Generals, were fully on board with killing those Muslims who never did anything to us. 'Treat them like dogs' said General Miller. And we certainly did worse than that.

Still waiting for the evidence that more than half of the world's Muslims want to kill anyone who does not share their beliefs.

[Nina7777]

39. Please note my previous reply to rug

Please note my previous reply to rug about the actual prevalence of support for draconian and violent punishments across the Muslims world-

Though Pew never asked if people think its ok to kill someone to insults the prophet, they had a question assessing a similar attitude about execution as a punishment for leaving the Muslim religion. Now, note that this question was very specifically worded to ask for support for enacting a law in the present day in the respondent's country. You can see results here:

http://pewresearch.org/databank/dailynumber/?NumberID=1184

It's actually not 50%, but an overwhelming majority- over 75% even in some countries that supported execution for people who were born muslim that chose to leave their religion.

Pew surveys are conducted in a number of regional languages and try to sample people from all over these countries to get a representative sample.

Given the strong support for other draconian measures in a number of Muslim majority countries, I would not at all be surprised if more than 50% of Muslims actually do support death for anyone who insults their prophet. The question has not yet been asked. I hope Pew asks this question for the future Global attitudes study, so we don't have to argue about which one of us is actually holding the inaccurate stereotypes.

[sabrina 1]

42. So you admit that all you had before making this assertion was your own opinion.

'I would not be surprised'.

Well I would not be surprised if a majority of Christian fundies ( I assume you are talking about fundies which most Muslims are not btw) also support death for anyone who is not a Christian believer. In fact I think we actually have statements from the likes of Ann Coulter and Pat Robertson calling for the deaths of Muslims who will not 'convert' to Christian beliefs.

But those of us who are rational, do not believe that either Ann Coulter or Pat Robertson, or General Miller eg, represent a majority of Christians. They are crazy. And so are the minority of Muslim extremists.. The too are crazy and the rest of the Muslim world, just like the rest of the Christian world, should not be judged by their crazies.

We, the US, have killed over one million Muslims over the past ten years.

Do you have some numbers on how many Christians have been killed by Muslims during that same period?

[Nina7777]

47. nope

"Well I would not be surprised if a majority of Christian fundies ( I assume you are talking about fundies which most Muslims are not btw)"

That poll was not does on Muslim fundies or some subset of Muslims, but a general sample of all Muslim identified residents of the country. It may well be the case that more than half of some extreme fringe of Christian dominionists supports death for anyone who is not Christian, but I would doubt that the 80% of Americans that identify as Christian would give you the same results.

"
Do you have some numbers on how many Christians have been killed by Muslims during that same period?"

Could well be similar. There is Darfur and the surrounding areas.

[Leontius]

75. A rough guess just in Sudan about two million.

[okasha]

15. What's your source for these quotes?

We've seen bogus references before, most of them created by right-wingers.

[Oregonian]

16. Are you unable to do any of your own research?

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/8/index.htm

I am the furthest thing from a right-winger. These are literal quotes from the Koran. For what it's worth, I detest the hatred in the bible, but we are fooling ourselves if we insist that all religions are equal in their wrath and worthlessness.

I've seen people whine and complain about the "misreading" of the bible before, too, and usually they're right-wing fundamentalists.

[sabrina 1]

35. Did you read the Bible quotes about God's violence on that site??

Yet very few Christians believe or condone that kind of violence.

Same thing with Muslims. They like Christians, have their extremists. But the vast majority of both groups, are just ordinary people who want to live their lives in peace.

Your focus only on Muslims is interesting to say the least.

[sabrina 1]

27. Generally when you make claims like that here, links to reputable sources are required.

Where did you get these figures from? I have never met a Muslim, here or in Europe or for that matter those I met in college who returned to their countries later, who believed that 'infidels must be killed'. Not one.

So can you provide some statistics since there are over one Billion Muslims in the world and they do have their Fundies, (and any Muslims I met, especially women, despised those fundies as much as we on the Left despise ours), their extremists calling for murder, just as we do. We have elected officials in this country calling for the death of an Editor and Publisher of an International News Org. But they do NOT represent one half of the Western World.

I would really like to see where these numbers are coming from.

[Oregonian]

28. See Post #20

I hardly see where one person's experience with muslims on foreign exchange (usually well-educated, wealthy people) can possibly qualify as "reputable sources". But thanks for your anecdotes.

[sabrina 1]

33. Thanks for your opinion, without any facts to back it up.

I did not say my experience was indicative of the opinions of one billion people. YOU made the claim that half a billion people want to kill 'infidels'. I stated I had never met a Muslim who agreed with that. Maybe I just never met the other half. I asked you for some credible sources that prove your assertions. You have provided none.

Therefore I will go with my own experiences until someone shows me some actual facts.

[Oregonian]

54. What is it with people and reading fucking comprehension here???

I never "made the claim that half a billion people want to kill infidels."

Bill Maher made the claim that "half of Muslims thinks it's okay to kill someone who insults the prophet."

There is some real data out there to suggest that this is true, and I don't think it's Islamophobia to say so.

[Nina7777]

40. Again

Numbers are here:

http://pewresearch.org/databank/dailynumber/?NumberID=1184

You probably have never met a Muslim who told you they supported the death penalty for leaving the Muslim Religion or adultery, but that is because you do not speak to the masses of people in Pakistan.

It is actually untrue that only the Muslim extremists fail to comprehend human rights while the majority of Muslims are moderate. By their own admission through many years of surveys from many organizations, the data shows that the majority of Muslims are actually extremely reactionary and supporting of death to a number of cultural dissenters.

[sabrina 1]

45. Even the Pew results, which tested only seven countries, disagree with your assertions.

Clearly you did not read the whole study.

In contrast, Muslims in Lebanon, Turkey and Indonesia largely reject the notion that harsh punishments should be the law in their countries. About three-quarters of Turkish and Lebanese Muslims oppose the stoning of people who commit adultery (77% and 76%, respectively), as does a narrower majority (55%) of Muslims in Indonesia.

Opposition to whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and to the death penalty for people who leave Islam is even more widespread in these three countries; 86% of Muslims in Lebanon, 82% in Turkey and 61% in Indonesia are against making harsh punishments for robbery and theft the law in their countries, and 93%, 91% and 64%, respectively, object to the death penalty against those who leave the Muslim religion.

Maybe you should read the whole study. Looks to me like Christian Fundies are more in favor of hell fire for those 'who do not believe', than Muslim countries, if you believe the Pew study.

[Nina7777]

48. so what if they are more in favor of hell fire?

You say:

"Looks to me like Christian Fundies are more in favor of hell fire for those 'who do not believe', than Muslim countries, if you believe the Pew study."

Favoring hell fire is not a human rights violation. Pat Robertson surely wants me as an atheist to burn in hell, and that is quite fine with me because it doesn't impede my life and hell has no real chance of existing in my mind. However, there are many many people who are accused in courts of law of apostasy and insulting the Muslim faith in a number of Muslim majority countries. Some of them are executed and others spends years in prison. Would you like links to that?

You say:

"and 93%, 91% and 64%, respectively, object to the death penalty against those who leave the Muslim religion."

And this is no reason for rejoicing or believing that the majority of people in these societies are not what we would consider extreme fundamentalists if held to western standards. Lebanon and Turkey are widely reputed as two of the most secular countries in the middle east. And even then, millions of people in Turkey likely support death for the crime of merely leaving Islam. In Indonesia, a large minority, over one third, support this measure. Could you imagine living in an American where 1/3 of people wanted you formally executed for leaving the religion you were born into? That is not the America I am living in. I know because I am alive and no one has called for otherwise.

[sabrina 1]

49. I live in an America where possibly 50% or more of the population think that

women who have an abortion are murderers and should be prosecuted as such, some demanding the death penalty for that 'crime'.

I tell you what, when we finally manage to take care of our insane fundies, then we can start worrying about other people's fundies.

Meantime I hate bigotry and it is not welcome on DU just fyi.

[Nina7777]

50. how many?

How many people in the US want a law enforcing the death penalty on women who get abortions? Is it 50%? What do you think it is?

I've had an abortion, honestly. However, i can see that there is some moral consistency is believing that an abortion is a deliberate and premeditated murder of a child and therefore merits the death penalty. People who believe this are still more tolerant and respectful of human rights than people who believe two consenting adulterers should be stoned to death.

"I tell you what, when we finally manage to take care of our insane fundies, then we can start worrying about other people's fundies. "

They aren't other people to me.

"Meantime I hate bigotry and it is not welcome on DU"

Bigotry is what? Not believing that the general population Muslims is equally tolerant and moderate to the general population of the world's christians? and why exactly is this bigotry rather than an observation of societies?

Pat robertson is a fundie. It looks to me that a much greater percentage of people in several Muslim countries sympathize with their even more reactionary versions of Pat Robertson than do Christians in this country.

[sabrina 1]

57. Wow, so to you, people who believe that a woman who has an abortion should

receive the death penalty are 'still more tolerant and respectful of human rights than people who believe two consenting adulterers should be stoned to death'.

So you think that people who support the death penalty for women who have abortions are 'morally consistent'?? Consistent with what? Morally? Is the death penalty moral? There is nothing moral about wanting the death penalty for women who have had abortions. There isn't even consistency for Right to Lifers, read that again 'Right to LIFE' demanding the DEATH penalty for anyone.

Here is what would be morally consistent if you are a Right To Lifer.

1)You would oppose all wars except in the case of an imminent threat that required self defense.

2)You would oppose the death penalty.

3)You would also oppose abortion.

But you cannot support WAR which involves DEATH and the DEATH PENALTY and think that by opposing ABORTION, you support Life. It simply doesn't compute.

You do know this is a Democratic forum btw?

'They aren't other people to me'. They live in other countries. Their business is their business. Since when is it our business to tell other countries how to run their affairs? Imperialism is largely responsible for the status of many third world countries, having robbed them of their resources, destroyed their cultures, not to mention killing untold numbers of them over the centuries.

We are NOT an Empire, although the attitude of many Americans lately, mostly right wingers, seem to believe that would be a good thing.

Here, read those numbers again, and remember, this is only 7 countries and even there it's hard to find anything close to the claims you are struggling so hard to make true:

In contrast, Muslims in Lebanon, Turkey and Indonesia largely reject the notion that harsh punishments should be the law in their countries. About three-quarters of Turkish and Lebanese Muslims oppose the stoning of people who commit adultery (77% and 76%, respectively), as does a narrower majority (55%) of Muslims in Indonesia.

Opposition to whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery and to the death penalty for people who leave Islam is even more widespread in these three countries; 86% of Muslims in Lebanon, 82% in Turkey and 61% in Indonesia are against making harsh punishments for robbery and theft the law in their countries, and 93%, 91% and 64%, respectively, object to the death penalty against those who leave the Muslim religion.

Those are pretty high numbers in opposition to what you claimed they supported. I wonder if the same poll were done here, how we would fare? Listening to the rantings and ravings from the bigots on the Right here, I think we may have a larger number of people right here who would support the death penalty for anyone who is not a Christian.

[Nina7777]

61. number are not high in opposition

So you think that people who support the death penalty for women who have abortions are 'morally consistent'?? Consistent with what? Morally? Is the death penalty moral? There is nothing moral about wanting the death penalty for women who have had abortions. There isn't even consistency for Right to Lifers, read that again 'Right to LIFE' demanding the DEATH penalty for anyone.

Personally, I'm not especially offended by the use of the death penalty against sadistic serial killers and the like. The idea of pro lifers who are against the death penalty is that the embryo is equal to a child, an innocent child at that, and it is therefore immoral to murder an innocent child. However, some pro lifers support the death penalty for the murderer of an innocent child (usually the abortion provider, not the woman). Right to life in abortion does not need to imply opposition to the death penalty. They just support the right to life for what is in their minds innocent children, but they do not support a right to life for what is in their minds, murderers.

I do not think embryos qualify as children, but if I did, then I would feel it just to severely punish people who "murdered" these innocent children.

'They aren't other people to me'. They live in other countries. Their business is their business. Since when is it our business to tell other countries how to run their affairs? Imperialism is largely responsible for the status of many third world countries, having robbed them of their resources, destroyed their cultures, not to mention killing untold numbers of them over the centuries.

That's your story, but I have citizenship in one of those countries because all of my ancestry is from there. "Their" business is my business.

Those are pretty high numbers in opposition to what you claimed they supported. I wonder if the same poll were done here, how we would fare? Listening to the rantings and ravings from the bigots on the Right here, I think we may have a larger number of people right here who would support the death penalty for anyone who is not a Christian.

The controversial comment at hand is that Bill Maher said more than half of Muslims support death for people who insult their prophet.

more than 90% of Lebanon is against executions for adultery, while 80% of Pakistan is for it. But lebanon has 4 million people while Pakistan has 175 million. Culturally, Afghanistan is very likely to have similar extremist attitudes prevalent as Pakistan (they are neighboring countries with somewhat similar forms of religiosity). the majority who opposes stoning for adultery in highly populous Indonesia is a narrow one- 55%. It's not impossible that more than 50% of Indonesians would support death for insulting the prophet. It's not guarenteed either.

Lebanon, Syria and Turkey are the most secular countries in the Middle East (people in Tehran were historically secular but their govt has done everything to crush that). Outside of that, the secular Muslim countries are central asian secular dictatorships (which are not populous) and a few European muslim countries (Albania etc).

But the masses of Muslims come from Bangladesh (poor and south asian), pakistan, indonesia, the middle east and north africa. Given the data from Jordan, Egypt and Pakistan, it is definitely possible that Bill Maher's statement is true, especially if we are not counting Uzbekistan and the like as Muslim countries (where Islam is practically illegal to practice). There are comparatively few Muslims in Lebanon and Turkey when compared to all the more culturally conservative states when you combine those countries (Iraq, Sudan, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan etc). To say more than 50% of Muslims support death for those who insult the prophet is fairly consistent with other indicators of the prevalence of support for violent punishments for religious infractions in the middle east. To make Bill Maher's statement is conjecture, but not a de facto indication of bigotry because there is reason based in evidence to believe that the statement is plausible.

[sabrina 1]

79. "That's your story, but I have citizenship in one of those countries"

That is not the problem of the US. So you have citizenship in one of those countries. So do lots of people. And it is still THEIR business, and yours but not mine, what they do in their own countries.

You're working hard to prove that 50% of Muslims support the killing of people who are not Muslims for some reason.

All I can say to that is, they have not been very successful from the POV of the West. You would think that with that many people supporting death for Infidels they would have succeeded in at least evening the numbers between us and them.

Like I said, when they put this into action and start dropping bombs on Europe and the US, let me know.

Meantime, I will go with my own experiences with Muslims, who have all been good citizens of whatever countries they live in, as disgusted by their extremists as we are with ours and wanting nothing more than to raise their families in peace, something we seem determined not to let them do.

[Oregonian]

56. This isn't bigotry, this is fact

And you've yet to support your claim that "50% or more" of the population think you should be prosecuted for murder if you have an abortion.

I'm pro choice, I'm a democrat, and I'm an atheist who detests ALL fundamentalism, not just Islam. But it's okay to recognize when one form is a bit more insidious and physically dangerous than another.

[sabrina 1]

58. My claim of 50% is as valid as yours. You have made a claim and failed to prove it.

It's almost as if you WANT it to be true, which is very strange and sad. I am very happy to be able to say that from my own pretty extensive experience with Muslims I have seen far less in fact zero evidence of this claim, while I cannot say the same from my experience with Christian fundies here.

One Million Muslims are dead and untold numbers of others are permanently disabled because our Christian President, who claimed he got the word from God, his Heavenly Father, to invade Iraq, believed he was on a Crusade. And that is not including those who were tortured, many to death.

And that was just in Iraq. We are also killing Muslims in several other countries. All of our leaders have been Christians.

If Muslims think that killing 'infidels' is a such a great idea, they are not very successful at it from what I can see.

We, otoh, are pretty efficient at killing THEM.

[Oregonian]

64. LOL, okay

So you have your anecdotal evidence, and I have a Pew Research Forum study about the attitudes of 1.6 billion Muslims all over the world. Whatever. It stands to reason that producing a poll about the thoughts of Americans on abortion would be pretty easy. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure more than half of all Americans polled (most of the time) believe we should keep the law as it is, i.e. pro choice. Not sure how that translates to 1/2 of us being bloodthirsty fundamentalists who want you executed for exercising that choice.

[sabrina 1]

69. The Pew forum study does not back you up.

Clearly you have trouble reading the results of that study which I have posted several times now, and which you called 'a strawman'.

Lol, it's a strawman when it proves you wrong, but it's 'evidence' when you think no one read it.

[Oregonian]

71. It's a straw man when you impugn my statements

as saying something they did not say. The Pew forum suggests that an OVERWHELMING majority of Muslims all over the world believe in a single interpretation of the Koran. And the Koran commands death for whoever insults the prophet.

These are indisputable facts.

[Oregonian]

55. Sabrina, this is a bullshit straw-man

and it's off-topic. No one is talking about death penalty in general. We're talking about who "thinks it's okay to kill someone if they insult the prophet mohammed".

To these people, that is 1000x the crime of theft and adultery.

[sabrina 1]

59. The Pew Poll is 'off topic'? I am not the one who introduced the poll airc.

I am quoting from the Pew Poll. Apparently you don't like the results.

If we are talking only about 'who thinks it's okay to kill people' then we have to look at the support the illegal, immoral, brutal invasion of Iraq got here. 70% of Americans supported invading that country and a good number of them supported 'killing all ragheads'. And we did! We didn't just have an opinion about it, we did it, over one million of them.

Our leader at the time, stated he got his guidance for that slaughter, from his 'heavenly father' when asked if he had solicited advice from his earthly father. No, he said, his Heavenly Father directed him to go kill Muslims. And he did. And tortured them and destroyed their environment for generations resulting in the births of children who are deformed and will be for generations to come.

Show me something similar in reverse, and I might take you seriously. Some Americans fail to see how the rest of the world views our brutal invasions and murders of innoncent men, women and children. Then they act all innocent when they find out the world doesn't see their WMDs raining down on human beings as ' noble' as they see it.

Get back to me when we stop killing Muslims in their own countries. I detest bigotry of any kind and consider it a mental problem that needs treatment.

[Oregonian]

62. The topic was Bill Maher's reference to muslims believing that insulting the Prophet

was worthy of the death penalty. How the hell does the U.S. invasion of Iraq come into play in that discussion?

And having the economic and technological means to invade a country isn't always the same thing as wanting a certain kindof people dead.

[azurnoir]

74. From the Qur'an

Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/62/default.htm

[JDPriestly]

31. That so many Muslims rioted over that stupid movie proves just how fanatical and violent

many of them are. Juan Cole wishes that what he is saying were true.

We also have insanely fanatical Christians.

Let's talk about tolerance, but let's don't pretend it exists in countries and faiths in which it does not exist.

Juan Cole would have been wiser to write about the need for tolerance EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

Saudi Arabia still does not allow Christians to convert anyone to their religion. Egypt discourages conversions away from the Muslim religion. And then they criticize Israel for being a Jewish state.

Let's persuade all nations to let their citizens have freedom of religion.

[sabrina 1]

36. Actually, as has been pointed out by many observers now, the number of people who

reacted with violence, were very few. Most of the demonstrations were peaceful and involved no violence. And the crowds were relatively small in most of the places where there were protests.

Most of the world's Muslims were not part of those demonstrations. The media focus on the Libyan tragedy which many believe had nothing to do with the film btw, made it seem as if all the protests were huge and violent.

[David__77]

53. That many would even demonstrate is eminently contemptible.

I cannot fathom a Christian parallel to such a thing, except in the odd fringes of the various sects that are decidedly countercultural in the Western countries and in many developing countries as well. Is there Christo-fascism? Yes. Much of Christianity has accommodated itself to respecting the supremacy of secularism and ecumenism. Such inklings among Islamic scholars and masses of worshipers are decidedly in the minority.

I do not see this as an inherent problem of Islam itself, but rather a reflection of the political left to address the Muslim peoples' demand for paths to liberation.

[sabrina 1]

60. I guess you've been missing all those Christian anti-Muslim hate fests in NYC and elsewhere

in this country. I cannot fathom why organizations would spend over $46 million just to show how much they hate an ethnic group in this country. You missed the attacks on Mosques for no reason other than the fact that they are there also, I guess and the physical attacks on Muslim Americans for no reason at all.

I guess we see what we want to see.

You missed the killing of over one million Muslims in their own country too. I cannot fathom Muslims invading a country and slaughtering that many Christians. You missed our leader explaining how his heavenly Father directed him to go there and kill all those people I suppose. Christian that he is, he needed guidance from his God in order to invade and kill Muslims in their own country.

Bigotry is blinding. It does not see its own sins, only the sins of 'the other'.

I don't know how I wandered into this forum, but I'm sorry I did. I never knew that DU tolerated this kind of bigotry before.

[Oregonian]

63. If you have to leave

none of us will shed any tears. You seem clinically unable to follow the discussion.

[sabrina 1]

68. I followed the 'discussion' very well. What I saw was sickening. Nothing different to what

I saw back when Bush was occupying the WH and his 'followers' engaged in the same kind of diatribe about Muslims. Back then, it was not generally found here on DU. Sad to see it here but at least it is confined to this forum and not out in the main forums where it would most likely not be acceptable..

[Nina7777]

66. ironic

You say this:

You missed the killing of over one million Muslims in their own country too. I cannot fathom Muslims invading a country and slaughtering that many Christians.

Then you say this:

Bigotry is blinding. It does not see its own sins, only the sins of 'the other'.

You cannot fathom Muslims invading somewhere and slaughtering that many Christians, yet they have in present day in Darfur. You do not see the sins of Muslims because you hate Christian fundamentalists so much. Bigotry is Blinding.

[sabrina 1]

67. Oh no, I see what is happening in Darfur and have followed that story

for ten years. What I do not see, is any acknowledgement that Christians are responsible for the deaths of over one million Muslims and that the killing is ongoing, and each time it is mentioned, it is ignored.

Now maybe if the US stopped calling itself a Judeo/Christian nation, we could eliminate the religious aspect of the US invasions of Muslim countries, but the fact is, that this is what we claim to be.

Otoh, all these wars and conflicts are far more about resources than about religion or ethnicity, but the leaders USE religion and ethnicity to fire up the hatred and bigotry we see right here in this thread in order to get support for their invasions. And it works, unfortunately. 'Ragheads', 'camel jockeys' etc. It was stunning how quickly people here in this country adapted the language of bigotry and got behind a tragic war that never should have happened.

Bigotry is bigotry.

[Oregonian]

72. I was never a fan of GW

And I think the Iraq War was a tragedy. But #1, your "1 milion muslims killed by the U.S." claim is a bald-faced lie, and #2, bigotry and hatred were not the core justification for the war; a fictional threat about WMDs were.

I am no fan of fundamentalism of any stripe, and I constantly stick a finger in the eye of bigoted, fundamentalist Christians, but you are so willfully stupid and ignorant and aggravating and dishonest in this discourse that you're making me stick up for them. That's quite a feat, congrats.

[Leontius]

78. I think it was a WHO estimate of 500,000 children dying in Iraq

Last edited Fri Sep 28, 2012, 04:29 PM - Edit history (1)

from the effects of the sanctions under Clinton between the two wars in Iraq. No link not even sure I correctly remember the scource so take it for what it's worth. Edit: It was a UNICEF estimate the Lancet also had similar estimates.

[sabrina 1]

80. Seems you are 'concerned' about what I 'bring to DU'! Lol, considering you have been here

for just a few weeks, maybe you should wait awhile before deciding what is acceptable on DU.

Just fyi, bigotry has never been acceptable on DU. A couple of weeks probably isn't enough time to understand what is or is not acceptable. Another thing generally not acceptable is calling other DUers names. But after you've been here a while, you'll probably have a better feel for these things.

Re this comment, #1, over one million Iraqis died in our illegal war. That is not a 'bald-faced lie'. For all we know, since our Generals have stated 'we don't do body counts' (well not for Iraqis/Muslims) it could be more.

And #2 You are correct that for the War Mongers who lied us into that war, bigotry was not the reason, Oil and control over all those Muslim countries was THEIR goal, but they used Bigotry to fire up the masses and an alarming number of people, most of them on the Far Right, were only too happy to oblige.

[defacto7]

81. In reading this thread, it is very clear

that in 29,631 comments which have taken considerably more than a few weeks to accomplish, you feel you have advanced yourself to the pinnacle of high rank, overshadowing the underlings of mere lowly status. I assert you have posted so many times without thought that you only see your own opinion and it's become your personal dogma; it's a blinder that keeps you from seeing logical arguments. You keep on repeating that word "bigotry" to the point that it's obvious you have an obsession with it.

As far as Oregonian and Nina7777 are concerned, they have portrayed excellent arguments, well defined and substantiated. No one needs to agree with them, but your blind obsession with your personal definition of bigotry masks any usefulness to your own argument, whatever that is.

Your posting numbers mean diddly squat. As far DU's allowance of name calling... wow, you sure missed that one in your vast experience. Oregonian's remarks were incredibly tame compared to what people get away with every day. The jury conviction is also totally meaningless as well; it's always a crap shoot, no more. And as for your remarks pronouncing your judgement of bigotry on these commenters, you are far more guilty of it than they are.

Your obsession with "bigotry" is it's own pit. I resent opinions that use displacement, exaggeration and habit to derail logical opinions because it has a way of turning away excellent thinkers who look to objectivity as an asset. Objectivity is discarded too often by subjective gobbledygook that's no different than raving fundamentalism. This subject requires more of an open mind than you seem capable of at least in this instance. That incapability disqualifies reasonable argument and seeds the very origin of bigotry itself.

Oregonian, Nina777... great job, and stick around, this place needs an injection of reason and a whole lot less bull shit.

[sabrina 1]

82. It is a well known fact that a debate is over, and won, when one's opponents

resort to personal attacks. Your friend Oregonian was unable to hold a civil debate without becoming frustrated and resorting to personal attacks. Thereby losing all credibility and/or any interest in what else s/he had to say, as is always the case.

Your own comment is nothing but a personal attack, conceding the debate before it even began.

Personal attacks do not bother me. I've said it before, and repeat, I spent years 'debating' the far right, whose only means of debate is personal attack, so I am very familiar with it and pretty much immune. It is the most ineffective online tactic and now so old and boring.

The internet seems to give false courage to some people to reveal character they most likely would never have the courage to reveal in RL. It's definitely an internet phenomenon. Anonymity, like liquor, emboldens some people, and like liquor, mostly to their detriment.

What is always refreshing are those who can disagree without becoming frustrated because the whole world doesn't agree with them and lowering themselves to that level.

Btw, I did not get your friend's post hidden. I guess DU as I said, is not impressed with childish personal attacks. You take your chances I guess.

Oh, and for the record, on the subject of the OP, I will take Juan Cole's view of Maher's ridiculous assertions over your friends' in this thread:

Maher is not important, but his thesis is widely put forward, and it matters in real people’s lives. There is a nation-wide campaign by religious bigots (most of them sadly evangelical Christians) to prevent American Muslims from building mosques in their communities, and one of the reasons often given is “fear” that the Muslims are homicidal and so the mosque is a conspiracy to commit murder waiting to happen. Maher’s singling out of Muslim as different willy-nilly encourages people to treat them as different, i.e., to discriminate against them.

Bigotry is no less ugly now regarding Muslims in this country, our latest round of bigotry, than it was when it was aimed at African Americans or any other ethnic group, anywhere.

[defacto7]

83. I'll take that under advisement.

Be well.

[demosincebirth]

51. I like Bill Maher. I think he is right on this subject.

[Cattledog]

76. F all the fairy tales

[Sekhmets Daughter]

77. He's also more than a bit of a sexist

but I never miss his show (unless Ann Coulter is on the panel) because I find him highly amusing.