Was Yesterday's Mass Shooting in Texas Part of "God's Plan?"

[MineralMan]

If so, I want nothing whatever to do with such a deity. Same question for the Las Vegas concert shooting. What sort of deity includes such tragedies in any sort of "divine plan?"

This is part of why I'm totally and irrevocably unable to believe that any deities or other supernatural entities exist. It is illogical to hold the idea that a deity would allow the mass killing of people while in the very act of worshiping that deity. That concept makes zero sense at all.

I welcome attempts to counter my argument.

[3catwoman3]

1. Your second paragraph says it all.

I additionally reject the the dismissive explanations that fall under the "Everything happens for a reason/God works in mysterious ways/We're not meant to understand" bullshit.

Man has made God in man's image.

[Zambero]

2. Yes

First off, the "God" in question needs to be fabricated, and then the will of said deity needs to be established in a matter that affirms the "core beliefs" of followers. Finally, any perceived divine motivation associated with these mass killings must not be questioned, in light of "God's" master plan, which also happens to be fully in sync with said "core beliefs".

[longship]

3. Always, the escape clause...

His will be done.

As George Carlin put so well, if god is going to do whatever he wills no matter what, what purpose is worship or prayer?

Like George, I pray to Joe Pesci.

Joe bless you, MM!

[MineralMan]

4. Thoughts and prayers? Are they a waste of time, then?

Discuss...

[longship]

12. It goes to the concept that there's some spooky guy in the sky to pray to.

That says nothing about remorse and regret for the tragedy. It only states that prayer is likely a singularly useless endeavor. However, if that's what one wants to do, have at it Hoss.

I have no problem with people praying. Just keep it to oneself, especially if one is in government.

I wouldn't have this opinion except that the GOP has long since merged with the maniacal fringe of the Religious Right, where preaching grifters of all sorts, long allied with the Republican Party, now pray for the likes of Donald Trump.

They are despicable. I would prefer that they study the causes of this kind of violence and possibly do something about it. But apparently all they have is thoughts and prayers, which do absolutely nothing.

Again, Joe bless you, my friend. I enjoy your posts.

[marylandblue]

5. Before I became agnostic, I concluded that.God was

either not omnipotent or not all good. I did not get many followers among theists, yet this is the near universal conclusion of non-Abrahamic religions since antiquity. In many ways, monotheism is a step backwards, because it creates a God even further removed from our ordinary experience than the pagan gods. Pagans understood that life was chaotic, so the gods are chaotic. Monotheists expect everything to be ordered and get upset when it is not.

[MineralMan]

6. I transitioned through agnosticism quickly.

Either there are deities or there are not. Either they are all-powerful or they do not exist, particularly in a monotheistic religion. Finding no evidence of their existence at all, I simply knew that I could no longer believe that they existed.

[marylandblue]

14. I am stuck with agnosticism I think

Maybe just because nothing in life is 100% certain. Maybe some wishful thinking.

[Mariana]

36. Atheists don't have to be 100% certain of anything.

An atheist can say, "Maybe there's such things as gods, but I don't believe in them."

[AtheistCrusader]

50. Depends on the usage of 'atheist' and 'agnostic'.

Gnosticism is knowledge.
Theism is belief.

I'm an agnostic atheist, because I do not believe, and do not perceive the need to believe, but on the other hand, I lack the discoverable knowledge to determine that there is not, never was, and never will be a 'god like thing'. I must allow the possibility that there is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being that does not want me to perceive it. I don't believe it (atheist), but I cannot know for sure (agnostic).


It's also possible to be a agnostic theist. Deism would be an example. They think there is a god, believe that there is a god, but believe it is unknowable to us (not an Abrahamic faith).

[democratisphere]

7. Humans are a flawed and failed species.

I'm sure "god" has a plan.

[Nay]

47. Well, "nature" has a plan, and it ain't pretty. The same flaws over god(s) are going to kill us

just as dead as a species when we delude ourselves that we're going to be JUUUUST FINE through climate change and eco collapse. The difference is that nature is real and there's no bargaining or bullshitting with her.

[DetlefK]

8. Your argument is pseudo-profound doo-doo.

Per the religious teachings, everything is part of God's plan, either directly through his will or indirectly through the laws of nature he designed. (Depending on what kind of religion you use.)

How did you arrive at the conclusion that it would be illogical for a god to let his worshippers die? Do you have any experience with gods? Please tell me what a god is like and what being worshipped means to a god.



Gods only exist within a certain world-view. You are using an argument from outside that world-view to attack the behavior of gods, which is nonsensical.

If you would like a comparison for how bad your argument is, imagine some nerd complaining how unscientific Harry Potter is. You are that nerd.

[MineralMan]

9. Thank you for your assessment. Really.

Doo-doo. I can't imagine a more descriptive word. And, as for being a nerd, well, I own that designation proudly. With regard to Harry Potter: Expelliarmus!

So, thanks again!

[DetlefK]

10. I could have used a different word, but I think "doo-doo" properly conveys my feelings.

[MineralMan]

11. Well, we all use the words that are in our active vocabulary.

[DetlefK]

13. Hehe. You said "vocabulary".

[Hoyt]

15. God works in mysterious ways. Accept it, just like FOX News.

[MineralMan]

16. And like Fox News, I don't have to accept anything.

I leave that to others.

[yallerdawg]

17. Our relationship with God...

described from Genesis to Revelation is predicated on two things.

Free will and our sinful nature.

Are you not familiar with the Adam and Eve story and our rejection of Paradise, known as the Original Sin?

If we were bound by a laid-out plan, we wouldn't have free will.

And what more proof do you need of our 'sinful' nature than what happened yesterday?

[MineralMan]

19. Circular reasoning.

Of course I'm familiar with the story. It's based on oral tradition and proves nothing except that it is part of a scripture used by a couple of religions.

Arguments that simply point back at faulty premises are in error.

[Act_of_Reparation]

21. Oh, bullshit.

Free will is irrelevant. God could have easily intervened without violating the free will of the attacker by making the guns fire ice cream instead of bullets.

[yallerdawg]

22. Same kind of thing Satan said to Jesus high on a mountain!

At least you're following a more traditional argument.

[True Dough]

28. Good point.

Or just caused the rifle to malfunction period (the ice cream ammunition would have led to overwhelming cries of "miracle!&quot .

But none of that happened.

[trotsky]

23. For claiming not to be a Christian,

you sure do buy into a lot of Christian theology.

[yallerdawg]

24. Broadly condemning and provoking Christians and their beliefs...

just seems to be very divisive when we need to be more inclusive and tolerant.

Rigorous, vigorous gun contol is in order, but WTF does "thoughts and prayers" hurt?

[trotsky]

25. "thoughts and prayers" keeps us from even having a discussion about...

"rigorous, vigorous gun control."

Because religious beliefs are held sacrosanct and special and above criticism by people JUST LIKE YOU.

[yallerdawg]

29. I and many others can feel compassion and empathy.

My first thought is NOT "in a church" and "God's plan."

Especially when "God's plan" is twisted into something it is not.

I argue with our 'resident gun humpers' that personal ownership of guns should be one of the hardest things we can do, with lots of 'well-regulated security of a free State' involved!

People having 'thoughts and prayers' has no impact on my Democratic position on gun control.

[trotsky]

41. None of what you said addresses my post.

And who are you to be the authority on what "god's plan" is, anyway?

[yallerdawg]

48. I addressed your post exactly...

and I am not an authority on God's plan but I damn sure know what it isn't as described by avowed atheists!

[trotsky]

56. Nope, you didn't.

And this:

"I am not an authority on God's plan but I damn sure know what it isn't"

Is blatantly contradictory. Carry on.

[Lordquinton]

34. One of the most devistating stories from the Bible

People who had no sense of right or wrong were supposed to know what God meant when he said eating the fruit was wrong.

Ever since that fiction was written women have been oppressed in Christian societies. It also undermines any argument that the Jesus myth is separate from the old testament, because without original sin, he has no reason to die (and he comes back, so no big sacrifice there really).

Also please look up confirmation bias.

[yallerdawg]

39. I'm glad you can synopsize the Bible in a couple misinformed sentences.

Remember Bill Maher's "talking snake" critique? Nothing about temptation (right from the beginning)?

What historical human culture has ever not oppressed women besides mythological Amazons?

Christianity is not the source of human nature.

[Lordquinton]

82. Why do all counter arguments leave out the important detail

That they had no concept of right or wrong? Why was the snake there? God must have put it there to cause the fall, or is good not omnipotent?

Ignoring the whataboutism except to call it out for what it is.

[AtheistCrusader]

51. AND YET, god prevented adam and eve from eating from the tree of life.

So he's capable of doing things counter to our free will, to stop us from doing XYZ action.

(Per the bible anyway)

[yallerdawg]

63. Start with The Fall...

and read through to the end of Revelation and you will see a progressive transition in God's interaction with us.

Even when the Word becomes manifest before our eyes - "proof" - most of humanity still rejects what is offered in the end.

Free will is just that. Starting with the Adam and Eve story.

[AtheistCrusader]

65. Not granting the claimed situation is real, but if I were given a choice between free will

and eternal life without free will, I'd choose free will.

[yallerdawg]

67. See?

That is EXACTLY what free will is!

What choice would you have if you knew beyond a doubt that God existed, had a specific, predetermined plan for you and your life was laid out like a tech manual?

Of course, that "Star Trek: TOS" episode comes to mind.

"Have you ever read Milton, Captain?"

[AtheistCrusader]

72. I would have the same choice that humans illustrated in the bible had.

Humans exposed directly to god/his powers/ or his supernatural agents.

They still had freedom to choose.


If god popped up and introduced himself, I would still have the choice whether or not to follow/ally with/endorse.

[yallerdawg]

78. At that level, that's not a choice.

That's a rejection.

You would choose to sin and put your soul in eternal jeopardy.

So "proof" isn't the most important factor here for you, is it?

[AtheistCrusader]

80. I would choose to reject knowing what I know now.

Proof/evidence would need to convey some additional understanding of the nature of the claimed god before I would choose otherwise.

(I doubt that bar could be reached, but it would be inconsistent to claim it is impossible.)

[trotsky]

83. "You would choose to sin and put your soul in eternal jeopardy."

That's three totally unsupported claims right there.

1) Prove that choosing NOT to follow what by all accounts appears to be a corrupt, capricious god is a "sin." Perhaps it's exactly what the REAL god wants us to do?

2) Prove that we have "souls" that outlive our physical body.

3) Prove that by "sinning" as in #1, we put our "souls" as demonstrated in #2 in "eternal jeopardy." (which needs to be defined as well)

Can you do any of those?

[safeinOhio]

18. God does not work that way.

I found this out as a child.

I really wanted a bike and prayed for one. Mom told me God does not work that way and signed me up for Sunday School. Using what I learned, I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness.

[MineralMan]

20. See. You used reason, rather than prayer.

You got your bike through reason. You had no bicycle, but desired one. You saw a bike and took it. After that you had a bike, which satisfied your desire. Action by yourself fulfilled your desire.

Did you get your forgiveness? Are you sure? I rest my case.

[Kleveland]

64. Sounds like the semi- religious logic of a Republican...

Tell a lie, you know it is a lie, but God will forgive because I am one of his beloved sheep.

[gopiscrap]

26. No that is always the bullshit easy way out

it is not God's plan (unless perhaps if you're a Calvinist) the human race is capable of both being very noble and very sinful at the same time. It is because of our separation from the sight of the "Beloved Community" that these horrible events happen. We were given a free will at birth.

[Not Ruth]

27. The shooter was an atheist

[smirkymonkey]

33. But the people in the church weren't.

[AtheistCrusader]

52. Not known at this time. The facebook 'screencap' indicating such, was fabricated.

it may be that he turns out to have been, but the screenshot was by way of Alex Jones and his ilk, trying to cast him as a democrat/left/antifa and an atheist.

[MineralMan]

70. That has not been shown to be true, as far as I know.

If you can find some evidence of that, please link to it. Thanks.

[Not Ruth]

71. Someone on another thread said "All accounts I've seen indicate he was an atheist."

Last edited Mon Nov 6, 2017, 04:04 PM - Edit history (1)

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=9804516

[MineralMan]

73. I'm sorry, but that isn't really evidence of anything.

Truly it isn't.

That is where someone else said something. Something seen somewhere else. It is certainly not something that is known to be true.

[Not Ruth]

74. I suppose that I could have challenged it

[MineralMan]

76. That's OK. I just did, although I don't expect any evidence to

be presented. Apparently, the source is a fabricated FB post from a right-wing source. Not actual evidence at all. But, I'll wait to see whether the poster at your link provides any further information.

I doubt it very much.

[Mariana]

84. You state that like it's a bald fact.

You might want to edit your OP to say something like, "Someone on another thread said "All accounts I've seen indicate he was an atheist." It would be more accurate.

[Not Ruth]

85. Updated as requested

[True Dough]

30. Same thing regarding

babies born with terminal illnesses like cancer or infants dying of malnourishment in famines. What sort of deity turns a blind eye to that. Not the sort of god I want to play poker with after supposedly passing through the Golden Gate.

[Fix The Stupid]

75. Those cancer filled babies had free will. Checkmate. n/t

[Doreen]

31. So if you say that while standing over the body of a dead child

belonging to one of those people who say that will they agree then? I hate religion.

[Binkie The Clown]

32. Permit me to quote my response to another post...

Re "thoughts and prayers"

If god had any intention to intervene, he wouldn't need your prayers to convince him.


The same people who claim god has some divine plan for the universe seem to think they can talk god into changing that divine plan to benefit themselves. If god does exist and if he does has some divine plan for the universe then his plan includes people getting shot, stabbed, abused, taken to the concentration camps and gas chambers, not to mention children starving to death or dying of cancer before they even get a chance to grow up. Frankly, a god like that has to be one sick sadistic son of a bitch. If that's your god, then your god makes Trump look like an angel.

[zipplewrath]

35. Makes no sense at all

So you think that if there were a diety, you'd be smart enough to know and understand what did and did not make sense to them.

Kinda proud of yourself aren't ya?

[MineralMan]

37. There is either logic or there is not.

As for being proud of myself, I am what I am. I take pride in accomplishments achieved, not in my existence. That was my parents' doing.

[zipplewrath]

38. Logic is the beginning of wisdom

Strange you'd think you were wise enough to understand the mind of God.

[MineralMan]

40. Faulty premise; faulty logic.

Your statement assumes the existence of a deity. I don't believe any such entities exist.

[zipplewrath]

42. Faith based reasoning

Your reasoning is based upon faith (I don't believe).

Kinda strange when discussing the logic of a deity.

This how your logic works?

[MineralMan]

43. I'll just let you think about that.

[zipplewrath]

55. You're not as clever as you imagine.

Anyone who has spent any time around theology has "thought" about this. You're questions and "logic" aren't particularly original, much less involving much thought or depth.

YOU attempted to explain how your logic leads you to a conclusion that a deity doesn't exist. That logic followed this path.

1. Does a deity exist
2. How would a deity behave
3. Are observed phenomenon consistent with those behaviors.

Your "logic" is all grounded upon step 2. i.e. you know how a deity would behave so you can then observe past and present phenomenon and conclude that a deity doesn't exist.

Of course, then you undermined your own logic by admitting that you had decided, based on faith, that 1. was already false so then the rest of your logic stream was corrupted by the need to support your prejudgement. It's why the "double blind" test is important in science.

Wrap your logic around this. IF a deity existed, it would very likely be far too complex for you to understand, and in fact it might actually be nearly impossible for you to recognize it. Furthermore, if one did exist, it may, or may not, have the "powers" to which you ascribe it. Lastly, even if it did have said control over the universe, it could also be true that for reasons you may not be able to comprehend, it would not behave in the manner you assume.

Oh, and just for fun, one could consider this concept. There could be a deity, and it doesn't share our "values". i.e. it might be someone you wouldn't consider "worthy" of worship.

[MineralMan]

59. Hmm...your three steps are not the ones I followed at all.

You're putting your concepts into my head. That's always a risky move, especially when you have only superficial knowledge of a person. Try thinking about other paths to an inability to believe in supernatural entities. I do not believe that there are any deities, because I cannot. It would be impossible for me to believe in their existence.

I didn't use your example of logic to come to that conclusion.

See if you can find another possible path.

[zipplewrath]

62. You may not have

But it is the process you represented in your OP

This is part of why I'm totally and irrevocably unable to believe that any deities or other supernatural entities exist.

You asserted that (part) of why you draw this conclusion is because you think you have the ability to know how a deity would behave. Fundamental to the assertion is addressing the question of whether deities exist.

Of course you also undermine this by admitting that your intent was not to actually consider, nor prove that deities don't exist, but that is was an assumption of your "logic" from the start.

[AtheistCrusader]

54. Lack of faith.

I don't have faith in your god. I don't have 'faith that your god doesn't exist'.

One is a positive claim, the other negative. One has burden of proof, the other does not.

[zipplewrath]

57. Neither was the OP claim

He basically claimed he could conclude based upon logic that a deity didn't exist. Then, of course he undermined his own logic by stating that he had already concluded that prior to applying his logic. Kinda undermines the whole process.

[AtheistCrusader]

53. Easy to understand things that don't exist. 'Hey it doesn't exist!'; understanding achieved.

Tongue-in-cheekiness aside, you misquoted the bible in your subject line there.

Psalm 111:10.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise.

Which explains all that kneeling and servitude and worshipping bit. God is the ultimate narcissist.

[zipplewrath]

58. I wasn't quoting the bible

Your bias is showing.

Believe it or not, deities are not the sole possession of Christianity.

[AtheistCrusader]

61. Sorry, it seemed like an intentional usage.

If it's not what you meant, then that's not what you meant and I withdraw the criticism.

[Nay]

44. Why, yes, of course. God needed 26 more angels since he's got special

projects in need of workers, so he went to a town of 200 people and grabbed up 26 churchgoers at random. Through gunshots. Maybe when he needs even more workers, he can be even more helpful to this town and just have the rest of the grieving relatives harvested for his needs. That way they could at least all be together in Heaven. I sure wish He'd do it in a less painful and frightening way, though. I'm sure the kids were terrified. Both the dying ones and the ones left alive.

[HopeAgain]

45. I haven't a clue what God's plan is...

So you are free to conclude whatever you wish. Another's belief or non-belief has no bearing on my own, so don't I feel compelled to make others believe anything. When I have experienced difficult times, my prayers have given me comfort. Others telling that they have prayed for me or my family has also given me comfort because of my faith. That is the essence of spirituality to me, a very personal and inward focused matter.

Fundamental religiosity is not spirituality, it is a human institution and I can't answer for them. I can say that even with my faith I would have to be arrogant as hell to profess to know God's will.

[zipplewrath]

60. I would have to be arrogant as hell to profess to know God's will.

Or as I like to suggest, to truly think that I could really understand him at all.

[HopeAgain]

66. Exactly. I understand what he does for me,

Not much else.

[zipplewrath]

81. People question me about deities

They want to know all sorts of unknowable things. My response is usually something about it being unknowable, and furthermore, even if it was, I'm dubious I could understand. The complexity of the universe is still not completely understood. My guess would be that the complexity of a deity would be much greater.

[bobbieinok]

46. That's the Calvinist view of God

This view -- predestination -- has been taking over much of the So Baptist Convention and Evangelicalism in general.

It is not the only interpretation among today's Christians. Contrary to the media, there are those who identify themselves as Christian who are neither SBC members nor Evangelicals.

[MineralMan]

49. You're right of course.

The Christian Right is made up almost entirely of people with Calvinistic views. Some aren't aware of that, but others are very, very aware of it. Much of the leadership of the Religious Right falls into the category of Dominionism, which is as Calvinistic as it gets. You're correct, too, that many, perhaps even a majority of Christians are not Calvinists. However, due to the zeal of those right-wing Calvinists, the entire Republican party is held for ransom by Calvinists.

I'm familiar with that doctrine, unfortunately.

[rurallib]

68. Epicurus from so long ago

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
― Epicurus

[MineralMan]

69. Yes. I'm familiar with that. Thanks!

[radical noodle]

77. The pastor and his wife seem to think so

even though they lost their daughter and their church. Personally, I believe if there's a God, he doesn't intervene in anything. We're on our own.

[guillaumeb]

79. Free will is the answer.

And the counter argument for all of the arguments about any plan.

[Iggo]

86. Isn't everything?