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Sun Oct 16, 2016, 06:53 PM

 

"When Trump demeans and assaults women, I consider it flat out blasphemy" ( #ChristianWomenPreach )


Dr. Serene Jones

“As a devoutly Christian woman, I am deeply appalled and righteously enraged by the demeaning and hateful words and actions of Trump towards women - and towards so many others. As a Christian, I believe that God loves all women and girls and has created us with bodies and lives and hopes and dreams that are truly sacred. We are precious in God’s eyes. So when Trump demeans and assaults women, I consider it flat out blasphemy; it’s against God, it’s death-dealing, not life-giving. God calls women to fullness of life and freedom. Trump, it’s seems, wants to either grope or imprison us.”
- Dr. Serene Jones, President, Union Theological Seminary





RELIGION

Here’s Why These Christian Women Don’t Want To Live In Donald Trump’s America

PREACH, sisters.


10/14/2016 06:01 pm ET

Carol Kuruvilla 

Associate Religion Editor

When women of faith get together, powerful things can happen.

This week, more than 700 Christian women clergy and lay leaders signed a letter strongly denouncing Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump’s callous attitude towards sexual assault. They also went one step further by calling out Christians who have stood by Trump and even tried to shrug off his misogyny as “macho” talk that’s “low on [Christians’] hierarchy of concerns.”

Well, these Christians are concerned. And they refuse to remain silent about it.

The Huffington Post reached out to a few of the women who signed the letter organized by Faith in Public Life, an advocacy group that amplifies the voices of faith leaders. In their responses, many of the women pointed out the Christian men that are often quoted in the press and are part of Trump’s advisory councils don’t speak for all Christians. As the historian and author Diana Butler Bass told The Huffington Post, it’s women who form the backbone of the church.

“All the women. The women who preach, the women who write theology, the women who pray, the women who serve ... Those who weep and mourn for the pain they’ve suffered,” Bass wrote. “And that church is rarely heard in public because it is too busy living its faith.”

The time has come to listen to these women preach.

Join the conversation at #ChristianWomenPreach.

snip---------------------

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/christian-women-donald-trump_us_580123d6e4b0162c043bdd7d





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Reply "When Trump demeans and assaults women, I consider it flat out blasphemy" ( #ChristianWomenPreach ) (Original post)
stone space Oct 2016 OP
Igel Oct 2016 #1
kestrel91316 Oct 2016 #2
Lordquinton Oct 2016 #3
trotsky Oct 2016 #4
stone space Oct 2016 #5
Goblinmonger Oct 2016 #6
stone space Oct 2016 #8
Goblinmonger Oct 2016 #9
stone space Oct 2016 #11
Goblinmonger Oct 2016 #14
stone space Nov 2016 #17
Goblinmonger Nov 2016 #21
stone space Nov 2016 #22
trotsky Oct 2016 #7
stone space Oct 2016 #10
trotsky Oct 2016 #12
Goblinmonger Oct 2016 #13
trotsky Oct 2016 #15
stone space Nov 2016 #23
Goblinmonger Nov 2016 #25
stone space Nov 2016 #26
Goblinmonger Nov 2016 #35
stone space Nov 2016 #16
Albertoo Nov 2016 #18
stone space Nov 2016 #19
Albertoo Nov 2016 #20
stone space Nov 2016 #27
Albertoo Nov 2016 #28
stone space Nov 2016 #29
Albertoo Nov 2016 #30
stone space Nov 2016 #24
Albertoo Nov 2016 #31
stone space Nov 2016 #32
Albertoo Nov 2016 #33
stone space Nov 2016 #34
Albertoo Nov 2016 #36

Response to stone space (Original post)

Sun Oct 16, 2016, 07:11 PM

1. That can be said about anybody.

Meaning that any dissing of men, boys, girls, women she should also consider blasphemy. They were also created by God, God loves them, and their hopes and dreams are sacred. Except that I suspect that many of those hopes and dreams she'd considered to be blasphemy. Because, well, they are. We can't expect consistency when it's about something so personal. God is personal. A veritable pokegah. Take out the pokeball, "God! Kill them with your kindness attack!" By which is not meant actual kindness.

Or she views women as somehow more sacred, more worthy. Just because they are women. Genitals matter, in other words, and we're not really created equal.

It's not a question of if she's wrong, it's a question of where and to what extent.

Which has been my assumption about pretty much everybody at Union TS since the early '80s. They and I seldom see eye to eye on the reasons for any belief, value, or ideological stance, even when we agree on the basic underlying morality. One will surprise me with some argument, but then, on page 2 or 3, I'm disabused of my perception that we're in agreement.

"Considering the context of this verse, and erasing what's been written and searching carefully all the interstices to ascertain what we should understand this to mean, it's clear that the only possible meaning of the word 'not' in this verse must not be to indicate prohibition, but to indicate not just assent but the obligation to do what is on the surface prohibited, with the further clarification that this verse is speaking directly to the provision proposed by Senator so-and-so in SB 10353, after we discussed it over wine and cheese at the reception after his victory party."

Meh.

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Response to Igel (Reply #1)


Response to stone space (Original post)

Sun Oct 16, 2016, 10:15 PM

3. There is no difference between Trump's America and the Republicans America

He's just not bothering to hide it.

This ties into all the other Republicans claiming to jump ship, this is their party, this is the Fundy party, trump is merely dropping the façade. If they don't like it, they shouldn't have been supporting it for decades.

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Response to stone space (Original post)

Mon Oct 17, 2016, 10:15 AM

4. That's nice.

Other people think that marriage equality is blasphemy. Some folks think denying god is blasphemy. I think we're better off identifying bad actions by the consequences they have on real-life people, and not the imagined responses of an invisible, undetectable god.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #4)

Mon Oct 17, 2016, 10:20 AM

5. The words of women can be reflexively dismissed, but is that the path to wisdom?

 

One can always find men who disagree, so I'm not sure what that proves.



That's nice.

Other people think that marriage equality is blasphemy. Some folks think denying god is blasphemy. I think we're better off identifying bad actions by the consequences they have on real-life people, and not the imagined responses of an invisible, undetectable god.


Some men of the religious right could have saved themselves some embarrassment had they listened to these women.



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Response to stone space (Reply #5)

Mon Oct 17, 2016, 11:05 AM

6. When one uses religion as the reason why something should be done

 

one runs the risk that the other side can be equally upheld by the same source text and/or that equally or more repellant things can be upheld.

I think the point being made is that the argument should be that we should do these things because that is what good humans do. No because the god of Abraham says so.

You post some really pro-religion stuff for being a militant atheist.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #6)

Mon Oct 17, 2016, 11:47 AM

8. If women speak out, their words might be contradicted by men saying repellant things?

 

When one uses religion as the reason why something should be done

one runs the risk that the other side can be equally upheld by the same source text and/or that equally or more repellant things can be upheld.

I think the point being made is that the argument should be that we should do these things because that is what good humans do. No because the god of Abraham says so.


So?

That's just part of the risk of women speaking out publicly, isn't it?




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Response to stone space (Reply #8)

Mon Oct 17, 2016, 11:51 AM

9. Way to completely miss the point.

 

Let me know when you figure out what trotsky and I are saying. Be happy to discuss it with you when you do.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #9)

Mon Oct 17, 2016, 12:01 PM

11. The two of you are saying that women who speak out might find others in disagreement.

 

Way to completely miss the point.

Let me know when you figure out what trotsky and I are saying. Be happy to discuss it with you when you do.


Now, of course, you are both correct, as that is a rather trivial and obvious fact of life.

But there's a subtext to your comments as well, a subtext that seems to suggest that this rather obvious fact is true only in the religious sphere, and not anywhere else in life, which is, of course, total nonsense.

That subtext is where both of you are wrong.



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Response to stone space (Reply #11)

Mon Oct 17, 2016, 01:10 PM

14. Swing and a miss.

 

That is not the subtext at all.

This person you quote is saying that as a Christian she sees these things a blasphemy. My response, as should most, is "who cares." Christians think a lot of stuff is blasphemy.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #14)

Sat Nov 5, 2016, 04:17 PM

17. Whether or not men care, it is still a good thing for women to speak out.

 

This person you quote is saying that as a Christian she sees these things a blasphemy. My response, as should most, is "who cares."


I care what women have to say.

I can't speak for "most people".





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Response to stone space (Reply #17)

Sat Nov 5, 2016, 05:02 PM

21. Strike two

 

I'm not dismissing what she has to say because she is a woman. I'm dismissing it because what does a Christians determination of blasphemy mean to anyone who isn't her flavor of Christian? Let's say you shouldn't do something because that's how humans should treat each other and not because your particular god may or may not like it.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #21)

Sat Nov 5, 2016, 05:21 PM

22. When Christian women speak out, you are going to hear Christian women.

 

I'm not dismissing what she has to say because she is a woman. I'm dismissing it because what does a Christians determination of blasphemy mean to anyone who isn't her flavor of Christian? Let's say you shouldn't do something because that's how humans should treat each other and not because your particular god may or may not like it.


You'll probably find something about the way they talk to nitpick about.

After all, they aren't in your religion. So they may not talk like you. In fact, they almost certainly won't talk like you. I mean, you don't call misogyny a sin, do you? If not, that would be a perfect excuse to dismiss them.






Over 700 Christian Women Condemn Trump’s Abusive Remarks

As Christian women we are appalled by Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump's recorded remarks that disparage women and condone sexual assault. Such language cannot be dismissed as “locker room talk.” Mr. Trump must offer public contrition that fully acknowledges the seriousness and depravity of his actions.

The sin of misogyny has caused many of us to experience sexual assault or sexually abusive language that threatened our safety, dignity and well-being.

Christian leaders cannot condone such violent speech about women as a minor mistake or an innocent attempt to be “macho." These excuses teach our young people that such language is acceptable and do further harm to those who have been abused.

We urge all religious leaders to preach, teach and help their communities heal from the twin sins of sexual violence and misogyny. While we are disheartened by Mr. Trump's toxic words, we believe this moment presents an opportunity to teach our daughters and sons that they are loved, and to teach all Americans how to speak out against sexually violent language.

In Faith,



(I don't feel like formatting over 700 names, address, and affiliations for posting here at DU, so here's the pdf)

http://media.wix.com/ugd/03e723_a9c878d1bd7e4da2a93b989d23147879.pdf

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Response to stone space (Reply #5)

Mon Oct 17, 2016, 11:11 AM

7. Your response has nothing to do with what I said. n/t

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Response to trotsky (Reply #7)

Mon Oct 17, 2016, 11:55 AM

10. Do you have names?

 

Other people think that marriage equality is blasphemy. Some folks think denying god is blasphemy.


Whose views are you parroting here?





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Response to stone space (Reply #10)

Mon Oct 17, 2016, 12:10 PM

12. Your dishonesty here is atrocious, but not unexpected.

This style has become your modus operandi.

I am "parroting" nothing. I am reporting facts.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=marriage+equality+is+blasphemy

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=atheism+is+blasphemy

Do you believe either of those things are blasphemous? Should we automatically listen to and respect people who do?

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Response to trotsky (Reply #12)

Mon Oct 17, 2016, 01:08 PM

13. Well, a deeply religious person said those things are blasphemy

 

so we gotta listen.

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #13)

Mon Oct 17, 2016, 01:48 PM

15. That is indeed the message being sent.

Much like when the pope says it's a sin not to help the poor. Well, he says it's a sin to be gay or use birth control, too. If you're going to carve out a special exception for respecting what a religious person says because of their religion, you open the door to a lot of bullshit.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #15)

Sun Nov 6, 2016, 09:16 AM

23. No, that's not the message being sent. The actual message seems to be going over your head.

 

That is indeed the message being sent.

Much like when the pope says it's a sin not to help the poor. Well, he says it's a sin to be gay or use birth control, too. If you're going to carve out a special exception for respecting what a religious person says because of their religion, you open the door to a lot of bullshit.


The actual message being sent would seem to be to be something more along the lines of "it is not OK to grab women by the P***Y without their consent."

I don't understand how you could possibly have missed this.

Why do some men have such a difficult time understanding women when they speak?

It's not like these women are going out of the way to hide their message. It is more like men are going out of their way to willfully "misunderstand" the message that these women are saying.













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Response to stone space (Reply #23)

Sun Nov 6, 2016, 11:10 AM

25. But why is it bad? Because it is blasphemy.

 

So, as long as god doesn't like it, then it's not ok.

Isn't is a much more powerful and universal message to say that it is bad because it's bad and not "because god said so." Especially given that the god in the Bible can be a prick a lot of the time. And he gives rules for how to treat your slaves, so is slavery OK, then?

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Response to Goblinmonger (Reply #25)

Sun Nov 6, 2016, 11:18 AM

26. I get it. These women speak a different language than you do. Their religion is different from yours

 

But why is it bad? Because it is blasphemy.

So, as long as god doesn't like it, then it's not ok.

Isn't is a much more powerful and universal message to say that it is bad because it's bad and not "because god said so." Especially given that the god in the Bible can be a prick a lot of the time. And he gives rules for how to treat your slaves, so is slavery OK, then?


When atheist women gather together to speak out collectively, I would hope that Christian men don't have similar difficulties in understanding them, but I'm sure that many will.

Cross cultural communication can be difficult, especially when involves women speaking out collectively, and men doing the listening.


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Response to stone space (Reply #26)

Mon Nov 7, 2016, 11:59 AM

35. This isn't about women as much as you are trying to paint me as a sexist.

 

This is about saying something is blasphemy and expecting that the world will agree and act accordingly.

I think the more universally accepted message would be to take your god out of this and discuss how humans shouldn't be treated this way because it's shitty. Full stop. Once you rely fully on "god doesn't like it" you then open up the debate to other interpretations of the bible as arguments against you. There are lots of shitty things in the bible about how women should be treated. There are people even in 2016 that believe the bible says that women should be subservient to their husbands. That cuts against the "Trump is committing blasphemy" argument.

Take god (i.e. blasphemy) out of the argument and just discuss why it's horrible to treat another human this way. Then there is no "Oh, but god DOES think it's ok" counterargument.

I'm sure you will, in some way, try to turn this into me not wanting to listen to women. And, if so, I'm done trying to explain it to you.

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Response to trotsky (Reply #12)

Sat Nov 5, 2016, 03:57 PM

16. Your links don't work for me. Can you tell me what they said about demeaning and assaulting women?

 

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Response to stone space (Original post)

Sat Nov 5, 2016, 04:36 PM

18. Dr. Serene Jones should learn to use words with precision

 

blasphemy is a direct insult to god
blasphemy
ˈblasfəmi/Submit
noun
the action or offence of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; profane talk.

Disrespecting women, while extremely unpleasant, does not fit the definition.

Using words loosely isn't productive.

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #18)

Sat Nov 5, 2016, 04:55 PM

19. This is what happens when you let women preach. They say the darndest things, don't they?

 

Oh my!



Rev. Dr. Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite, a professor at the Chicago Theological Seminary, is one of the women who signed the letter. She told The Huffington Post that she wanted to add her voice to this chorus of Christian women who are confronting Donald Trump’s “blatant manipulation of the Christian faith for political ends.”

“He ‘found Jesus’ just as he was being nominated as the Republican presidential candidate, and that’s only one example,” she told HuffPost in an email. “Given his sexually aggressive behavior toward women, in his own words, this is an insult to the Christian faith itself.”


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/more-than-700-christian-women-condemn-trumps-misogyny-in-powerful-letter_us_57fe614ee4b0e8c198a548c7


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Response to stone space (Reply #19)

Sat Nov 5, 2016, 05:00 PM

20. In what is your answer relevant?

 

I could not care less who preaches, man or woman, as I consider both are wasting their time by doing so. The religious sacred texts are so flawed that preachers have no leg to stand on.

But this has nothing to do with my initial contention, i.e. that unsavory opinions about this or that are distinct from blasphemy.

I understand the stretch of language involved, which is why I referred to the 'blasphemy' sentence as loose talk.

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #20)

Sun Nov 6, 2016, 12:18 PM

27. Sexually assaulting women is more than a mere "unsavory opinion". Some even consider it blasphemy.

 

But this has nothing to do with my initial contention, i.e. that unsavory opinions about this or that are distinct from blasphemy.




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Response to stone space (Reply #27)

Sun Nov 6, 2016, 09:24 PM

28. Now, you apparently understand (I hope)

 

I was referring to sexism, as blasphemy is merely an opinion

But yes, taking note that sexual assault is far more than an opinion,
it makes that preacher's comparison of sexual assault to blasphemy even worse.

Glad you finally saw that.

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #28)

Sun Nov 6, 2016, 09:30 PM

29. Please do not try to associate me with your opinions here. It is offensive.

 


Glad you finally saw that.


If you feel confident and secure in your own statements, you will not need to falsely claim my validation for them.

I can't help you with any insecurities that you may feel.

It's not my job.

You need to seek validation elsewhere. There's nothing that I can do about that.



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Response to stone space (Reply #29)

Mon Nov 7, 2016, 10:52 AM

30. That is pretty rich from someone who tried to pretend I condoned sexual violence

 

Something for which I might have reported you for if I was playing that little game.

But, unlike some people here, I do not.

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #18)

Sun Nov 6, 2016, 10:07 AM

24. How do you know? Has God told you directly that She is not insulted?

 

Dr. Serene Jones should learn to use words with precision

blasphemy is a direct insult to god

Disrespecting women, while extremely unpleasant, does not fit the definition.

Using words loosely isn't productive.


You seem very sure of yourself, here.

As if you might have some direct knowledge.

Are you in communication with Her?

Does She speak to you and answer your prayers?





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Response to stone space (Reply #24)

Mon Nov 7, 2016, 10:56 AM

31. What a fine off focus word salad

 

I commented on the use of a word as defined by humans.

I stayed within the confines of human syntax and logic.

The opinion of an imaginary being is not part of the equation.

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #31)

Mon Nov 7, 2016, 10:58 AM

32. As opposed how women use the word?

 


I commented on the use of a word as defined by humans.


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Response to stone space (Reply #32)

Mon Nov 7, 2016, 11:03 AM

33. Are you trying to suggest women are not human beings?

 

Because if you're trying to insinuate that's what I could have meant in any way, shape or form, please bring a quote and a reasoned explanation of your underhanded suggestion.

For someone who defends the existence of a superior being committed to help people behave well, I suggest you review either your belief or your behavior: you're doing something wrong.

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Response to Albertoo (Reply #33)

Mon Nov 7, 2016, 11:41 AM

34. Can you understand why a woman might feel that God could be insulted by sexual assault?

 

Or do you just dismiss the notion out of hand?



For someone who defends the existence of a superior being committed to help people behave well, I suggest you review either your belief or your behavior: you're doing something wrong.


I'm not sure what to make of this.

You have some bizarre notions of what atheists believe.

Do you know an atheists in real life?



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Response to stone space (Reply #34)

Mon Nov 7, 2016, 12:05 PM

36. Your attempts to justify your imprecise use of words are bizarre

 

I gave you a copy of the definition of the word the word blasphemy.

Syntax and logic show the pastor quoted in the OP stretched the term beyond its definition.

If you wish to persist disregarding the definition of the word I provided, may I suggest you stop pestering me with messages which will remain off topic as long as you disregard the meaning of the word?

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