Are some Christians really Christian?

[TexasTowelie]

The issues that have stirred emotions across the nation over the past weeks have elicited decidedly un-Christian reactions.

When some called for the removal of the Confederate flag in South Carolina and the removal of the Confederate statue in front of the Caddo Parish Courthouse, social media exploded with hurtful and hate-driven comments. Another firestorm followed the Supreme Court ruling allowing nationwide same-sex marriages.

"This is not news, it's a disgrace," said Matthew Lyons in a comment on a Times Facebook post concerning the marriage of two Caddo men in Festival Plaza last week. "I would be grateful if you moved to a different state!"

Though many offered congratulations and praise, others had only condemnation.

"Sodomites ... nothing more than perverted Sodomites," Tom Wharton said in a comment on a Times article detailing celebrations from the local gay community on the SCOTUS ruling.

Read more: http://www.shreveporttimes.com/story/news/local/2015/07/09/christians-really-christian/29898891/

[HFRN]

1. there are many true christians

but there are also people who call themselves that, and are anything but, and just use it as a weapon against anyone they don't like, which can be almost everyone

(there are people like that in any group, there are those who preach 'tolerance' who are intolerant of anyone who differs in opinion on any topic to the slightest degree)

[mr blur]

11. Ah, the old "No True Christian..." defence.

Who gets to decide though, who's a true Christian and who isn't?

[Warren Stupidity]

2. who gets to define "true christians"?

I'm sure Tom Wharton thinks his view is entirely justified by his religion, and he or whoever he learns his bigoted nonsense from, can likely provide a detailed theological argument for that view.

[AuntPatsy]

6. That's what I was thinking

[Warpy]

3. You have to realize that such people worship a weak, wimpy god

who can't do a damned thing without their earthly interference. It's not a god to fear, it's a little one that fits into a shoebox under the bed, to be taken out and ordered around at will.

[stopbush]

4. Based on the bigotries and prejudices preached by Jesus in the buy-bull,

I'd say that Xians are just following what their lord has taught them.

They're excellent Xians, just lousy human beings.

[TexasProgresive]

5. Would you care to expound on the bigotries and prejudices preached by Jesus in the Bible?

Like he cared for the poor, the downtrodden, the imprisoned, the ill, the halt, the blind and the deaf. That he saw women as equals and not someone to keep at arms length. He only condemned hypocrites, never prostitutes or tax collectors.

[trotsky]

7. If he saw women as equals, why were all 12 disciples men?

As to your other questions, consult this post:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218206850

[stopbush]

15. Saw women as equals?

Check out his encounter with the Canaanite woman, where he basically calls her a dog. That was an unvarnished racial slur. He also tells her that his ministry on the Earth is exclusively for the Jews, so she need not bother asking for his help in healing her daughter.

Really quite a loathsome creature, this Jesus.

[TexasProgresive]

16. This is probably a waste of space, but thank you for getting me to think it out.

Let's look at that passage from Matthew 15:21-28.
The Canaanites were Gentiles that is not Jewish, so the perceived slight is not because she is a woman but a Gentile. Jesus as usual is surrounded by those who want to know what he's about and those who wish to trap him is heresy. Technically Jesus as an observant Jewish man should have nothing to do with any woman not his wife, sister or mother.

Some see this as a lesson in prayer. She calls out to Jesus for help, he listens but delays responding, When he does it is to say that he came to the lost sheep of Israel, so don't ask any good thing of me.

The woman teaches us humility and persistence in prayer. She doesn't run away in tears but offers Jesus homage. Now comes the strongest rebuke of Jesus: "It is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs." Remember "dogs" refer to Gentiles not women to the Jews, women were much much lower on the scale.

There is more than one lesson being taught here by Jesus. The woman is showing those around him persistence and humility in prayer. It is almost as if the woman and Jesus are in a role play.

Continuing to plead her case in humility, "Please, Lord, for even the dogs eat the scraps that fall from the table of their masters."

Her persistence in humility paid off, "Then Jesus said to her in reply, 'O woman, great is your faith!* Let it be done for you as you wish.' And her daughter was healed from that hour."

What Jesus did here is one more stroke of the whip he was to receive as it filled his enemies' mouths with sour grapes. He elevated a Gentile woman above them.

Then Jesus went from that place and withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. And behold, a Canaanite woman of that district came and called out, “Have pity on me, Lord, Son of David! My daughter is tormented by a demon.”

But he did not say a word in answer to her. His disciples came and asked him, “Send her away, for she keeps calling out after us.” He said in reply, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

But the woman came and did him homage, saying, “Lord, help me.” He said in reply, “It is not right to take the food of the children and throw it to the dogs.”

She said, “Please, Lord, for even the dogs eat the scraps that fall from the table of their masters.”

Then Jesus said to her in reply, “O woman, great is your faith!* Let it be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed from that hour.

[trotsky]

17. Humility is not viewing yourself as a dog.

What a horrible way to teach that lesson.

[Igel]

19. What is humility?

the quality or condition of being humble; modest opinion or estimate of one's own importance, rank, etc.

Humble:
not proud or arrogant; modest:
having a feeling of insignificance, inferiority, subservience, etc.:
low in rank, importance, status, quality, etc.; lowly

If you're meek, you're humble; if you're poor in spirit, you're humble; if you're a peace-maker, you're humble. Much of the sermon that people think says that the poor are automatically virtuous and blessed by virtue of their bank balance and who are justified in making demands and standing up for themselves is about humility.

Viewing yourself as a dog (metaphorical, at least, compared to the heirs of the promise given by God to Israel) is certainly humble, meek, poor in spirit, and rather than demanding her place she convinced in a way that made peace.
And the humility Jesus showed makes her look like an arrogant female dog: He was stripped, whipped, and essentially lunched on a cross while a group of people came out to picnic and watch him and others die. At the end he said, "forgive them." Meanwhile, the narrative goes, he was tempted and didn't sin. In other words, all those OT laws that we spit on today he followed, in spades.

If you're Xian, you're trying to be Xlike.

Humility is in very short supply in US culture; it's actively frowned upon and openly held in contempt. Since it's a standard virtue in some circles, it's often redefined to ensure that the arrogant can view themselves as "humble." Many confuse humility with theomachy. And most often try to use X as a club to bludgeon others when they aren't willing to do much themselves besides bludgeon others. (I think of them as the New Pharisees. Some are on the right, some are on the left.)

[trotsky]

21. Wow, just wow.

I can't believe you're attempting to justify this. No wait, I can.

Humility doesn't mean comparing yourself to an animal, debasing yourself. This bit of Christian theology is putrid. Everyone has worth. Everyone has value. Excuse me, I need to leave now or I'll be sick.

[stopbush]

18. Like most apologists for Jesus, you seek to put the most-positive spin you can

Last edited Fri Jul 10, 2015, 04:30 PM - Edit history (3)

on a clear case of Jesus acting like a racist and a megalomaniac.

You may be interested to know that this particular story is always a topic of discussion at seminaries, because it shows Jesus in a very unfavorable light. Potential ministers need to deal with the story. While most apologists spin it as you do, others have met the story head on. The takes on the story run from "proves Jesus was human and that this was a learning moment for his human side," to "yep, it's racist, even considering the times."

What no Xian seems to consider is that the story simply reflects the beliefs that were rampant (and are still rampant) in religions that grow out of paternalistic, misogynistic societies. This is myth-spinning at the most-insulated and -tasteless level. This is a story written by men, for men. There's really no divine lesson being taught here - no deeper, hidden message to discern. The lesson YOU derive above is heavily influenced by man's enlightenment, and has nothing to do with the actual words and actions of Jesus in this story.

No matter what apology you provide for Jesus, the fact remains that for whatever reason, he treated this woman with disrespect that I dare say you would find appalling were it practiced by your run-of-the-mill human being. Imagine any human being who had it within their power to cure this woman's daughter with a snap of their fingers subjecting a concerned mother to refusal after refusal to help her, calling her a dog, and only relenting and deigning to help her after she groveled at their feet, assuaging some megalomaniacal belief that she somehow "earned" their help through a demonstration of "faith" that was based entirely on her degrading herself before them. Yeah, I'd think we'd all say that was disgusting behavior...unless it's Jesus! Then, it must be OK, right?

And BTW - you may also want to consider the racism, bigotry and misogyny that is present in The Law as presented in the OT. That would be the same Law that Jesus said was FULLY in effect until heaven and Earth passed away. Ergo, his dealing with this woman - just like his parable of the Good Samaritan - serves in the main as an exception to the rules of a Law that is still very much in effect, at least in Jesus' mind. That is, if you take Jesus at his word.

You might check out this article that sheds a different light on the story of the Canaanite woman:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davidhenson/2012/09/jesus-was-not-colorblind-racial-slurs-and-the-syrophoenician-woman-lectionary/

[mr blur]

20. Well said.

[Leontius]

23. They can't understand.

They will never understand.

[TexasProgresive]

24. I knew that before I posted.

Thanks for the affirmation.

[cbayer]

13. I am also interested in the bigotries and prejudices preached by Jesus.

Surely you can list them and make references to the bible.

[trotsky]

8. So, if a person is good, they're a Christian...

and if they're not, they're what? An atheist?

[edhopper]

9. Real Christians read the Bible in Latin or Greek

And stay away from the English Tynsdale Bible.

[Act_of_Reparation]

10. Are some Scotsmen really Scotsmen?

The world may never know.

[cbayer]

12. Yes, they are.

The definition should be very simple and very concrete. Since the teachings of christ are wide open to interpretation, there are going to be a wide variety of want that people express their christianity, but i think it's a mistake to say that some people are and some people aren't.

Modifiers can be used for all kinds of groups, including christians, and that is where you begging to make the distinction.

[hrmjustin]

14. Personally i think too many mix their Christian religion with right wing nationalism.

I am not particularly good at bring a Christian but they are rotten at it.

[Humanist_Activist]

22. The person who wrote the following article is a Christian....

http://www.mikeleake.net/2015/07/guest-post-how-the-gospel-ended-my-same-sex-relationship.html

I'm not going comment too much on this article I came across, I figure Jesus can do that for me:

[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#dcdcdc; padding-bottom:5px; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-bottom:none; border-radius:0.4615em 0.4615em 0em 0em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]Matthew[div class="excerpt" style="background-color:#f0f0f0; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-top:none; border-radius:0em 0em 0.4615em 0.4615em; box-shadow:3px 3px 3px #999999;"]10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

I'm truly puzzled at anyone who would think this person was a good moral or ethical teacher when his teachings, fully applied, involves hurting other people. Indeed, you better love him more than anyone on Earth, or you aren't worthy of him in the first place. This is the Christian God, a petulant child who demands absolute obedience and devotion.