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cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 09:11 AM Jan 2015

Pope Francisí new clothes: Why his progressive image is white smoke and mirrors

Don't buy his populist rhetoric. The new pope is every bit the sexist homophobe as his predecessors


THE IMAGE OF Pope Francis is that he is a breath of fresh air, more progressive on social issues than his predecessor and a kinder, gentler pope. But when the facts are examined, you see that he is none of these things. There is an enormous disconnect between who the pope really is in terms of his policies and his public relations image, as crafted by the Vatican’s PR man, previously with Fox News. The current PR mission is all about reversing the incredible decline in fundraising under the last pope from the U.S. Catholic Church in particular. Pope Francis has made any number of statements that seem to indicate change and progress that are not reflected in policy. In fact, in the wake of such comments from Pope Francis, the Vatican often makes a point to explicitly state that no church policy has changed.

While the pope transmits a populist vibe—particularly about the economy— he is an old-school conservative who, despite his great PR, maintains nearly all of the socialpolicies of his predecessors and keeps up a hardline Vatican “cabinet.” He has done virtually nothing to change the policies of the church to match his more compassionate rhetoric. People excuse the pope, claiming that he doesn’t have much power to make changes, but this simply isn’t true. Further, it is ludicrous to suggest that a man who denies comprehensive reproductive health care (including all forms of birth control including condoms and abortion) and comprehensive family planning is a man who cares about the poor of this world. The bigotry of homophobia and sexism cloaked in religion are still bigotry and sexism. By giving to the church, American Catholics aren’t supporting “progress,” they are supporting oppression and in this way are complicit in the bigotry, sexism, and oppression of the church.

http://www.salon.com/2014/06/22/pope_franciss_liberal_reformer_image_is_all_smoke_and_mirrors_partner/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow




Glad to see that more and more are seeing the reality of who this man is and what his church actually stands for.

And Catholics wonder why attendance is down and churches are closing?
61 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Pope Francisí new clothes: Why his progressive image is white smoke and mirrors (Original Post) cleanhippie Jan 2015 OP
Why do they do that? Cartoonist Jan 2015 #1
Because they need to placate the conservatives too skepticscott Jan 2015 #2
Yeah, I don't get that either Prophet 451 Jan 2015 #3
He's a mixed bag, that's for sure Prophet 451 Jan 2015 #4
That's the problem, IMO, all talk, no action. cleanhippie Jan 2015 #6
You might well be right Prophet 451 Jan 2015 #13
His words on poverty are hard to appreciate or take seriously skepticscott Jan 2015 #14
You have no idea what he actually thinks skepticscott Jan 2015 #12
That essay is seven months old. rug Jan 2015 #5
1-16-2015 Pope, in Philippines, says same-sex marriage threatens family cleanhippie Jan 2015 #7
Yor essay is from 6-20-14. rug Jan 2015 #8
Lol cleanhippie Jan 2015 #9
Well now, this is interesting. rug Jan 2015 #15
If the shoe fits. cleanhippie Jan 2015 #18
This isn't about shoes, it's about your statement. rug Jan 2015 #20
Lol cleanhippie Jan 2015 #23
I see. Weaseling. rug Jan 2015 #26
As a Packers fan edhopper Jan 2015 #30
I'd prefer to remove the Catholic church from the discussion LiberalAndProud Jan 2015 #32
Since he brought it up, it's in. rug Jan 2015 #33
As you have no doubt noticed, I very rarely start an OP. LiberalAndProud Jan 2015 #35
I see. Weaseling. Lordquinton Jan 2015 #60
I see weaseling. rug Jan 2015 #61
That was edhopper Jan 2015 #37
That would be my answer as well. LiberalAndProud Jan 2015 #38
Make sure you donate plenty to the box edhopper Jan 2015 #11
Ok, ed, I'll aask you the same question. rug Jan 2015 #16
Yes edhopper Jan 2015 #24
"all who still support it are complicit." rug Jan 2015 #27
Yes edhopper Jan 2015 #28
The only one stretching here is you. ed. rug Jan 2015 #29
Yes edhopper Jan 2015 #31
That one is complete and utter bullshit. rug Jan 2015 #34
Why yes edhopper Jan 2015 #36
"you give support a criminal organization" rug Jan 2015 #39
Ones who support the Church edhopper Jan 2015 #43
Inclding those who throw five bcks in the basket? rug Jan 2015 #44
Are they giving money to the church? edhopper Jan 2015 #45
How mch of the five bcks is left to commit mayhem afterpaying for the heat and mortgage. rug Jan 2015 #46
You're to wrapped up edhopper Jan 2015 #47
You keep using the phrase "criminal organization" as if you onderstand it. rug Jan 2015 #48
What would you call a group that edhopper Jan 2015 #49
What do you call an organization, some of whose principals committed crimes? rug Jan 2015 #50
Your opinion edhopper Jan 2015 #52
You think this Rock Show edhopper Jan 2015 #10
Absolutely. BTW, no "Rock Show" has come close to a fraction of this attendance. rug Jan 2015 #17
I will not be holding by breath until that happens edhopper Jan 2015 #19
It's as clear as day. Now, why don't you answer the question dangling above. rug Jan 2015 #21
which one is that? edhopper Jan 2015 #22
answered edhopper Jan 2015 #25
Tsk. okasha Jan 2015 #40
At least he hasn't yet resorted to the Crusades. rug Jan 2015 #41
There is that. okasha Jan 2015 #42
I don't like it when someone interjects just to attack a contributor delrem Jan 2015 #53
I don't like concern trolling. okasha Jan 2015 #54
I wasn't concern trolling. I was telling you that I don't like your tactic. nt delrem Jan 2015 #55
Post removed Post removed Jan 2015 #56
I wasn't concern trolling. I was telling you that I don't like your tactic. delrem Jan 2015 #57
You've had as much of my time as you're going to get. okasha Jan 2015 #58
goodbye. Thanks for listening to my message. nt delrem Jan 2015 #59
kick Dawson Leery Jan 2015 #51

Cartoonist

(7,280 posts)
1. Why do they do that?
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 09:41 AM
Jan 2015
in the wake of such comments from Pope Francis, the Vatican often makes a point to explicitly state that no church policy has changed.
-
If it's a PR ploy for Frank to say nice things, why don't they let it stand at that? Let the people be fooled. Why go and take back what he said? They could keep the same backward policies without having to admit anything.
 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
2. Because they need to placate the conservatives too
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 10:10 AM
Jan 2015

The Vatican has perfected the art of talking out of both sides of their mouth to try to keep the money flowing in from both sides.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
4. He's a mixed bag, that's for sure
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 10:49 AM
Jan 2015

On the one hand, he's saying things I agree with on poverty and social injustice/exclusion.
On the other hand, he heads an organization that's still horribly anti-woman and homophobic and even if he personally doesn't hold those views, he's not made any move to change them.
I reserve the right to agree with some but not all of what he thinks, same as I do with Jimmy Carter.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
6. That's the problem, IMO, all talk, no action.
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 10:52 AM
Jan 2015

That's why it's all seen as a PR stunt. It's all BS rhetoric.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
13. You might well be right
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 11:55 AM
Jan 2015

Still, I can appreciate his words on poverty while thinking he's flat wrong on both women's rights and gay rights (his position on both is immoral, IMO). I'm not Catholic so I don't have to accept everything he says.

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
14. His words on poverty are hard to appreciate or take seriously
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 12:08 PM
Jan 2015

When he and the church he leads adamantly cling to principles and rabidly pursue policies that are fundamentally at odds with them. Allowing women to control how many children they have and when is one of the best weapons available to fight poverty. On the other hand, opposing the use of artificial contraception in any form condemns thousands if not millions of women and children to poverty, starvation and early death, and all because they claim that their god requires all sex to be open to the transmission of life (witjh no evidence that their "god" even exists, let alone that he really wants that).

And you're just fine with that? Seriously?

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
12. You have no idea what he actually thinks
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 11:51 AM
Jan 2015

You only know what he says. And what the Vatican says he really meant. And what he does to change bigoted, homophobic church doctrine, policies and practices (which would be essentially nothing).

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
5. That essay is seven months old.
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 10:52 AM
Jan 2015

Are you running out of material?

Maybe you can document the decline in attendance with this today.

18 January 2015 Last updated at 08:46 ET

Pope Francis in Manila: Six million attend outdoor Mass



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30869019

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
7. 1-16-2015 Pope, in Philippines, says same-sex marriage threatens family
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 10:56 AM
Jan 2015
Appealing to the traditional values of Filipino Catholic families, Pope Francis made one of his strongest calls as pope against movements to recognize same-sex unions as marriage. "The family is also threatened by growing efforts on the part of some to redefine the very institution of marriage," the pope said Jan. 16, hours after warning that Philippine society was "tempted by confusing presentations of sexuality, marriage and the family."

"As you know, these realities are increasingly under attack from powerful forces which threaten to disfigure God's plan for creation and betray the very values which have inspired and shaped all that is best in your culture," he said. Pope Francis made his remarks at a Mass in Manila's cathedral and then at a meeting with families in the city's Mall of Asia Arena.

At the latter event, the pope called on his listeners to resist "ideological colonization that threatens the family." The Vatican spokesman, Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, said later that the pope was referring to same-sex marriage, among other practices.

The pope's comments came less than a week after a speech to Vatican diplomats in which he criticized "legislation which benefits various forms of cohabitation rather than adequately supporting the family for the welfare of society as a whole," saying that such legislation had contributed to a widespread sense of the family as "disposable."

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1500200.htm



 

rug

(82,333 posts)
8. Yor essay is from 6-20-14.
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 10:58 AM
Jan 2015

Last edited Sun Jan 18, 2015, 12:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Your comment about the decline in attendance is from today.

I'd enjoy continuing this nonsense but I'll be late for Mass.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
9. Lol
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 11:01 AM
Jan 2015
Don't buy his populist rhetoric. The new pope is every bit the sexist homophobe as his predecessors


THE IMAGE OF Pope Francis is that he is a breath of fresh air, more progressive on social issues than his predecessor and a kinder, gentler pope. But when the facts are examined, you see that he is none of these things. There is an enormous disconnect between who the pope really is in terms of his policies and his public relations image, as crafted by the Vatican’s PR man, previously with Fox News. The current PR mission is all about reversing the incredible decline in fundraising under the last pope from the U.S. Catholic Church in particular. Pope Francis has made any number of statements that seem to indicate change and progress that are not reflected in policy. In fact, in the wake of such comments from Pope Francis, the Vatican often makes a point to explicitly state that no church policy has changed.

While the pope transmits a populist vibe—particularly about the economy— he is an old-school conservative who, despite his great PR, maintains nearly all of the socialpolicies of his predecessors and keeps up a hardline Vatican “cabinet.” He has done virtually nothing to change the policies of the church to match his more compassionate rhetoric. People excuse the pope, claiming that he doesn’t have much power to make changes, but this simply isn’t true. Further, it is ludicrous to suggest that a man who denies comprehensive reproductive health care (including all forms of birth control including condoms and abortion) and comprehensive family planning is a man who cares about the poor of this world. The bigotry of homophobia and sexism cloaked in religion are still bigotry and sexism. By giving to the church, American Catholics aren’t supporting “progress,” they are supporting oppression and in this way are complicit in the bigotry, sexism, and oppression of the church.

http://www.salon.com/2014/06/22/pope_franciss_liberal_reformer_image_is_all_smoke_and_mirrors_partner/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=socialflow



It;s like the author is talking directly to you.

Have a nice mass. Do you get the gluten-free wafer for communion?
 

rug

(82,333 posts)
15. Well now, this is interesting.
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 12:15 PM
Jan 2015

Are you saying I'm "complicit in the bigotry, sexism, and oppression"?

Come on ch, don't be shy. I'm back from Mass now and I'm all ears.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
20. This isn't about shoes, it's about your statement.
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 12:32 PM
Jan 2015

You typed that this months-old screed was addressed to me. Now own your statement.

Are you saying I'm "complicit in the bigotry, sexism, and oppression"?

Weaseling around with-passive aggressive squirming doesn't cut it.

Now answer that question in broad daylight.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
23. Lol
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 12:39 PM
Jan 2015

You get so worked up, rug. That's not good for your health. Take a break, it's Sunday.


I'm off to Church, my mass starts at 12:05 PST, but I need to get there early to score a good seat for the sermon. My communion usually consists of Hot Wings, Craft Beer, and Poutine (Living so close to Canada has it's perks).

I'll save you a seat if you want to join. Send me a PM when you get to Bellingham and I'll let you know where we are. If you're not there by the end of the 1st Quarter, I can't guarantee you a seat, sorry.

Have a nice day!


Oh, and GO SEAHAWKS!!!












LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
32. I'd prefer to remove the Catholic church from the discussion
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 01:19 PM
Jan 2015

to illustrate why I would answer yes to your question. Please keep in mind I am trying to illustrate the idea of why I think congregants are, in fact, complicit. My real-world experience has been more approximate to the United Methodist church, so I will share my thinking as it relates to that denomination.

There are a great many United Methodists who passionately support equal rights for homosexual people politically, monetarily and personally. Many would be willing to sacrifice their own reputations and professional standing in support of those rights. Still the fact remains that the United Methodist church has taken a doctrinal stance in direct opposition to that worldview.

I have had the misfortune of sitting through more than one sermon by more than one minister regarding the responsibility of the congregation to meet their apportionment obligations, not because the ministers enjoy delivering these types of sermons, but because they are compelled by the church conference to do so. Also the church leadership demands of ministers that they must not preach from the pulpit in support of same sex marriage. Ministers who support same sex marriage are to be silent from the pulpit. Reconciling congregations have been enjoined from naming themselves Reconciling.

So the question, if a congregation continues to fund an organization that stands in opposition to social justice, how is that congregation not complicit in perpetuating the injustice?

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
35. As you have no doubt noticed, I very rarely start an OP.
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 01:44 PM
Jan 2015

I think I'm not very good at it. I would hope that some interpolation could be made to other denominations. If not, then I'll leave it with the unanswered question.

LiberalAndProud

(12,799 posts)
38. That would be my answer as well.
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 02:51 PM
Jan 2015

The (paraphrased) answer I received from one reconciling Methodist was, "We're trying to figure out how to not pay apportionments." That answer seemed to me to concede the point.

The same Methodist and I both believe that an institutional rift in the church is imminent. I think this is how denominations procreate.

edhopper

(32,977 posts)
11. Make sure you donate plenty to the box
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 11:07 AM
Jan 2015

to go to Amicus Briefs to defend Hobby Lobby and bans on Same Sex Marriage.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
16. Ok, ed, I'll aask you the same question.
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 12:19 PM
Jan 2015

I'm more likely to get from you an answer in words, not smileys.

Are you also saying I'm "complicit in the bigotry, sexism, and oppression" because I went to Mass?

Spare us both the weaseling and give a straight answer.

I'll wait.

edhopper

(32,977 posts)
24. Yes
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 12:42 PM
Jan 2015

I think the RCC has shown itself to be a Criminal Organization. And all who still support it are complicit.
If any other organization had perpetrated the kind of enabling and cover-up that the Vatican did over the pedophilia crimes,it would have been disbanded and shunned by the rest of the World.

I don't know what the answer for people who do not want to reject the teachings but want to reject the Vatican.

If joining a different Church doesn't work, perhaps it's time for a new Church.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
27. "all who still support it are complicit."
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 12:55 PM
Jan 2015

That incudes Kerry, does it not?

Senator Leahy?

Durbin, Harkin? Mikslsky, Cantwell, Gillibrand?

You voted for Gillibrand, didn't you, ed? Are you complicit?

I know you better than to say you are a bigot but I suggest you wash the handle of that broad brush before using it again. You may catch something from the one who used it before you.

edhopper

(32,977 posts)
28. Yes
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 01:05 PM
Jan 2015

all who support the Vatican.
If I found out my donations to Gillibrand went to the Church and still gave, yes, if not, no.

I think you are stretching in comparing voting for a Politician with some different views and giving money to such an institution.

I am not using complicit in a sense that you would be guilty of a crime.

Do you think Gay people who give to the GOP are complicit in anti-gay laws?

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
29. The only one stretching here is you. ed.
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 01:14 PM
Jan 2015

Those are all Catholics in good standing, along with thousands of other elected Democrats.

All of whom you call complicit in misogyny, homophobia and whatever else is on your list.

It's a bullshit position.

edhopper

(32,977 posts)
36. Why yes
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 02:34 PM
Jan 2015

yes it was.
As it is whenever it is trotted out.


More to the point, we all support politicians we disagree with on some things. And we criticize them for those things.

Are you saying you don't?

I support your membership here, even though I think you give support a criminal organization.

The world is full of gray areas.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
39. "you give support a criminal organization"
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 04:57 PM
Jan 2015

Well, now, there's another bullshit opinion.

To be clear, that statement would apply to every practicing Catholic. Is that your statement?

edhopper

(32,977 posts)
45. Are they giving money to the church?
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 07:50 PM
Jan 2015

Then yes they are helping.
Though to a small degree.

I get you don't like my opinion here, so I am not sure why you wish me to keep repeating it.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
46. How mch of the five bcks is left to commit mayhem afterpaying for the heat and mortgage.
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 07:57 PM
Jan 2015

You should really read what Hegel wrote on quality and quantity. As it is, you're coming off like a backwater DA trying to
convict a shoplifter.

edhopper

(32,977 posts)
47. You're to wrapped up
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 08:06 PM
Jan 2015

In me thinking Churchgoers are also criminal.sorry you can'tbsee the distinction.
They are supporting a criminal organization, though I am sure they don't see it that way.
You obviously don't, I do.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
48. You keep using the phrase "criminal organization" as if you onderstand it.
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 08:09 PM
Jan 2015

It is not one under any code of criminal law. I don't mind rhetorical hyperbole but I object when it's passed off as fact. And that misstatement completely undermines any point based on it.

edhopper

(32,977 posts)
49. What would you call a group that
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 08:15 PM
Jan 2015

Enabled and covered up child rape.
I call it a criminal organization.
You are free to differ and keep supporting and defending them.
Doesn't change what they did or my opinion of them.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
50. What do you call an organization, some of whose principals committed crimes?
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 08:22 PM
Jan 2015

Hint, not "criminal organization".

What is more obnoxious than that is calling every member of that organization complicit in those crimes.

What is worse than the sheer obnoxiousness of it is that it's flat out wrong.

What is worse than being flat out wrong is that you're actually taking actions based on those demonstrably wrong ideas.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
17. Absolutely. BTW, no "Rock Show" has come close to a fraction of this attendance.
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 12:24 PM
Jan 2015

Here, read the lead from your link:

MANILA — Cheering throngs greeted Pope Francis when he arrived in the deeply Catholic Philippines on Thursday evening, the first papal visit in 20 years to a country whose church is struggling with profound social changes and a decline in political power.

What you and your gluten-concerned friend fail to realize is that once the church gets out of politics, it will be stronger than ever.

What oh what will you do then?

edhopper

(32,977 posts)
19. I will not be holding by breath until that happens
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 12:31 PM
Jan 2015

Are you?

Is that when everyone gets a pony?

Are you seriously taking my "Rock Show" point that literately? Seriously?

delrem

(9,688 posts)
53. I don't like it when someone interjects just to attack a contributor
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 08:43 PM
Jan 2015

to the discussion, after which 2 or more in an attack pack conduct a back and forth about how disgusting that contributor is.

Maybe you think that tactic has something to do with "religion". I don't.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
54. I don't like concern trolling.
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 08:53 PM
Jan 2015

If you're hellbent on doing it, though, I can suggest. some areas where your efforts might be more appropriate.

Response to delrem (Reply #55)

delrem

(9,688 posts)
57. I wasn't concern trolling. I was telling you that I don't like your tactic.
Sun Jan 18, 2015, 09:02 PM
Jan 2015

I still don't.

Now, go look up "concern trolling" on google.

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