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Htom Sirveaux

(1,242 posts)
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 03:55 PM Oct 2014

Have you ever changed your mind about something religion/spirituality-related because of

what you've read in this forum?

I don't think I have, personally, although I have had many enjoyable, extended theological/political discussions here.

77 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Have you ever changed your mind about something religion/spirituality-related because of (Original Post) Htom Sirveaux Oct 2014 OP
i was going to say no, but now you've got me thinking.... unblock Oct 2014 #1
No shenmue Oct 2014 #2
Yes, I've burned all my rosaries. rug Oct 2014 #3
I never changed anything I believed but many articles posted here have taught me new things. hrmjustin Oct 2014 #4
Expecting significant change is unrealistic Cartoonist Oct 2014 #5
How would this statement go over with you" cbayer Oct 2014 #15
And then there's evangelism Cartoonist Oct 2014 #19
There is evangelizing whether one is attempting to convert or deconvert. cbayer Oct 2014 #20
Another BS attempt to equivocate between faith and nonfaith. AtheistCrusader Oct 2014 #23
Faith isn't phil89 Oct 2014 #54
Love isn't rational. cbayer Oct 2014 #56
Nope. djean111 Oct 2014 #6
This forum? Nope. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Oct 2014 #7
My views have changed since I started following this forum. Promethean Oct 2014 #8
What changes were those, if you don't mind sharing? nt Htom Sirveaux Oct 2014 #9
I don't mind but you probably will. Promethean Oct 2014 #10
My experience with religion has clearly been different from yours. Htom Sirveaux Oct 2014 #12
Yours may be benign or even generally beneficial. AtheistCrusader Oct 2014 #26
It has mostly edhopper Oct 2014 #11
Yeah, I used to think religion was a lot more benign/harmless than it really is. AtheistCrusader Oct 2014 #13
I've learned a lot about different beliefs and the whole spectrum of non-belief. cbayer Oct 2014 #14
Except you repeat 'faulty understandings' here in this thread. AtheistCrusader Oct 2014 #24
Yes. Iggo Oct 2014 #16
No, can't think of anything. Leontius Oct 2014 #17
I think I've gained some better understanding of the whole spectrum in discussions here. pinto Oct 2014 #18
I've come to the conclusion that there is no definite version of any religion CJCRANE Oct 2014 #21
Really well said. cbayer Oct 2014 #22
That sounds similar to my experience. Jamastiene Oct 2014 #53
I don't think I have because of things read on the forum... LeftishBrit Oct 2014 #25
Yes. ZombieHorde Oct 2014 #27
If you wrote this drunk, I'm sending you a barrel. rug Oct 2014 #29
And I'll send another. okasha Oct 2014 #41
What a great post! cbayer Oct 2014 #30
Maybe because you were drunk... MellowDem Oct 2014 #31
Inebriated or not, well said. I rankle at indentity labels, at times. pinto Oct 2014 #35
I find it a tad ironic that in complaining about and rejecting labels, you are using them yourself. trotsky Oct 2014 #39
Good. ZombieHorde Oct 2014 #43
I raise a glass to you, sir. longship Oct 2014 #59
yes and no DonCoquixote Oct 2014 #28
Just because some people you don't like are atheists.... MellowDem Oct 2014 #32
I do see people I dislike who are agnostics DonCoquixote Oct 2014 #36
I dont think they're allowed to define modern atheism.... MellowDem Oct 2014 #37
then what would you call Ms. Murray oh hair DonCoquixote Oct 2014 #40
Comparing people like Dawkins or O'Hair to radical Muslims is irresponsible and wrong. trotsky Oct 2014 #47
OH so DonCoquixote Oct 2014 #48
Didn't say that. trotsky Oct 2014 #49
no DonCoquixote Oct 2014 #50
So to answer my question, no, neither of them said anything calling for the murder of people. trotsky Oct 2014 #51
So callign somethign a great evil DonCoquixote Oct 2014 #57
I think the idea of racism is a great evil. trotsky Oct 2014 #58
advocating death DonCoquixote Oct 2014 #64
But you have yet to show either Dawkins or O'Hair having advocated death to anyone. trotsky Oct 2014 #65
if calling Islam a great evil DonCoquixote Oct 2014 #70
Islam's very own holy book... trotsky Oct 2014 #71
The Communist manifesto calls for war DonCoquixote Oct 2014 #73
"Your hateful language toward vocal atheists is disturbing to say the least" DonCoquixote Oct 2014 #72
I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself. trotsky Oct 2014 #74
Been watching the History Channel, have we? Act_of_Reparation Oct 2014 #66
Wow, well done. trotsky Oct 2014 #67
actually no DonCoquixote Oct 2014 #69
Absolute rubbish Act_of_Reparation Oct 2014 #75
I've become an anti-theist MellowDem Oct 2014 #33
"persavive privilege of religion that seems to shine most brightest in liberal circles" ? pinto Oct 2014 #34
Most people don't, because it is so pervasive... MellowDem Oct 2014 #38
Sorry, I still miss the basis for your point. Who on the left spectrum calls criticism bigoted? pinto Oct 2014 #61
Resa Aslan, Ben Affleck, Cenk of the Young Turks... MellowDem Oct 2014 #68
Extremists like who? Catholics? Because go ahead and try and pass death with dignity allowances in AtheistCrusader Oct 2014 #42
Or marriage equality. trotsky Oct 2014 #45
Or gun control. bvf Oct 2014 #46
Yeah, there are extremist activists in the Catholic church as with any other religious group. pinto Oct 2014 #60
I completely disagree. AtheistCrusader Oct 2014 #62
Thanks for the background data. pinto Oct 2014 #63
I haven't, bvf Oct 2014 #44
Yes, I have. Jamastiene Oct 2014 #52
Mmmm... Not really. BeanMusical Oct 2014 #55
No. I don't need someone else to think for me upaloopa Oct 2014 #76
No Hangingon Oct 2014 #77
 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
4. I never changed anything I believed but many articles posted here have taught me new things.
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 04:27 PM
Oct 2014

I don't get into the weeds on theological discussions here because it doesn't interest me all that much. My faith is a simple one.

Even with our not so great moments here you can still learn something new.

Cartoonist

(7,316 posts)
5. Expecting significant change is unrealistic
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 04:32 PM
Oct 2014

The best one can hope for is in planting the seed of doubt, or making someone see something from a differing point of view.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
15. How would this statement go over with you"
Fri Oct 24, 2014, 10:41 AM
Oct 2014

"Expecting significant change is unrealistic.

The best one can hope for is planting the seed of belief and faith, or making someone see something from a differing point of view"

Cartoonist

(7,316 posts)
19. And then there's evangelism
Fri Oct 24, 2014, 01:37 PM
Oct 2014

Which goes beyond planting seeds and attempts to plow the ground and salt the earth. Stuff like passing judgment and condemning people. Writing laws and demanding privilege. Your attempt to portray both sides as somehow being equal will never succeed.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
20. There is evangelizing whether one is attempting to convert or deconvert.
Fri Oct 24, 2014, 08:35 PM
Oct 2014

There is no difference at all, imo.

I agree that passing judgement based on whether someone is a believer or not is the wrong thing to do. I also agree about writing laws and demanding privilege to accommodate religious beliefs.

My attempt succeeds just fine. There are differences and there are similarities. And when you are attempting to deconvert, it is exactly the same thing as someone who attempts to convert.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
23. Another BS attempt to equivocate between faith and nonfaith.
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 03:51 AM
Oct 2014

We're not blind or stupid, you know. Evangelizing for something not religious wouldn't be atheism, it would be humanism, or some other secular faith construct.

I'm not 'selling' people on active non-belief in god. I'm tearing down bullshit, made up myths and monsters.

There's no equivalency here, no matter how desperate you may be to paint it as such.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
7. This forum? Nope.
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 04:49 PM
Oct 2014

My religious/spiritual views have changed over time, but I have only been here less than a year of my 45 on earth, so those changes took place before my arrival here.

Promethean

(468 posts)
8. My views have changed since I started following this forum.
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 06:25 PM
Oct 2014

However there hasn't been just one post or subject that has resulted in the change. It has been the culmination of what I have learned that has brought the change and some of that was contributed here.

Promethean

(468 posts)
10. I don't mind but you probably will.
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 07:39 PM
Oct 2014

I'll try to give the nice version. I have become more cynical. I no longer consider religion even a neutral influence on the world, it has shifted entirely to negative. If someone admits to being religious my trust for them markedly decreases now as opposed to before it would have had no change. This has come about from interacting with and observing believers of all stripes. From fundy to progressive the behavior that I reject is ever present.

Htom Sirveaux

(1,242 posts)
12. My experience with religion has clearly been different from yours.
Wed Oct 22, 2014, 10:56 PM
Oct 2014

I have found it to be an encouragement to grow as a person, and an environment where people struggle to bring out the best in each other. It reminds me every week to look beyond myself to people that I would not otherwise experience, and issues that it would be very easy to turn away from. In the past month alone, we've been exhorted at my church to take action on the environment, homelessness, and economic injustice. Our previous minister was last seen protesting the hobby lobby decision at the local hobby lobby, and for all we know, she is still there. Our new minister has been quite the activist as well.

Where in all of this is the negative influence on the world?

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
26. Yours may be benign or even generally beneficial.
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 04:00 AM
Oct 2014

But its still predicated on the acceptance of an unprovable supernatural, and that acceptance gives cover to other religions that depend on similar acceptance, and claim THEIR interpretation of that supernatural is true and right, and makes demands upon people to do this or do that, to not use birth control, to outlaw abortions, to trash the civil rights of same sex couples and hundreds of other vile assaults on humanity, and oh, by the way, fork over some arbitrary portion of your income, so said church might spend that lobbying to achieve aforementioned goals.

You accept the supernatural, on faith? You plant a tree those fuckers can hide behind, to shelter them from the disinfecting daylight.

I know you don't mean to, but that's the net effect.

And as for all the positive things you listed? Religion is wholly unnecessary to accomplish that.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
14. I've learned a lot about different beliefs and the whole spectrum of non-belief.
Fri Oct 24, 2014, 10:40 AM
Oct 2014

I've discovered more about my personal position regarding religion. I've also been shown on many occasions that my understanding of something was faulty, and I changed in response to that.

pinto

(106,886 posts)
18. I think I've gained some better understanding of the whole spectrum in discussions here.
Fri Oct 24, 2014, 01:27 PM
Oct 2014

Rethought some assumptions I held and revisited what roles religion plays in my personal life. And have been introduced to voices I had not known before.

CJCRANE

(18,184 posts)
21. I've come to the conclusion that there is no definite version of any religion
Sun Oct 26, 2014, 03:43 PM
Oct 2014

and that it's all up for debate (partially influenced by posts in this forum and on DU in general).

In many ways, that is a good thing, because it means that we shouldn't judge an individiual believer based on things that another coreligionist says or does.

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
22. Really well said.
Sun Oct 26, 2014, 08:21 PM
Oct 2014

I also think that is a good thing. There are as many types of christianity/judaism/islam/etc as there are christians/jews/muslims/etc.

I think the same is true for non-believers and spiritual, not religious and every iteration that you can think of.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
53. That sounds similar to my experience.
Tue Oct 28, 2014, 01:46 PM
Oct 2014

There are some really good ones out there of all religions and some bad apples too. Too many bad apples have the biggest mouths and too much power.

LeftishBrit

(41,205 posts)
25. I don't think I have because of things read on the forum...
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 03:54 AM
Oct 2014

though I have certainly learned some interesting things about religion and culture.

I have changed at times because of personal experiences and observations. I have always had friends and relatives of all faiths and none; and have almost never had a negative personal experience directly related to religion (the only exceptions were a couple of Christian anti-Semites who insisted that the Jews killed Jesus) or to atheism. But I have observed all kinds of harshness and intolerance related to religion in world politics, as well as to non-religious gods ranging from communism to the holy Free Market.

My 'annus horribilis' as regards religion and politics was 2010; and I did go through a bit of a crisis in my attitudes at that time. The Christian Right, and specifically the political 'pro-life' movement, intruded into politics in my backyard in a very ugly way in the May elections: a way that I would never have thought possible in my country, let alone the apparently liberal place where I live; and I have to admit that for about 2 months I was something of an anti-theist. Then, that summer, I came across some great inspiring Christian-left material, and when I investigated, it turned out to be someone with some quite close personal connections to my life (this sounds vague but I don't want to identify myself or my friends/colleagues/etc.) I suppose if I were religious I would consider that a sign from God; as it was, I just considered it as a coincidence and a lesson in not letting oneself become prejudiced. No, I did not become religious; just returned to my long-term realization that religion does not equate with right-wing fanaticism.



So there was all this in the background when I started woffling away on the Religion forum.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
27. Yes.
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 04:26 AM
Oct 2014

When I first joined DU I was mostly anti theist, but now I am not, and that is largely due to my time on DU. I say "mostly" because I have had a soft spot for cults most of my life. I have had personal interactions with several cults.

Some theists here have pointed out that the Chinese government, which is atheist --as opposed to secular-- contains many dick heads. The atheist argument I have read against this is the Chinese government acts as a state religion. That may be true, but I am currently unconvinced.

In my current opinion, the perceived problem isn't religion, but obedience and the tools of obedience, such as identity and the social construct of rule of law. In my opinion, the greatest atrocities were acts of obedience to law and order. The holocaust, slavery, war, modern famine, etc., are all legal acts of obedience. The Underground Railroad was comprised of disobedient criminals. Gandhi was a disobedient criminal. MLK jr., was a disobedient criminal.

My college major is propaganda, and the number one tool of propaganda is identity. According to my classes our identities are created for us, and are used to control us. Gay, American, male, mother, liberal, etc. It's all bullshit created by others and we desperately cling to them. Abandon them as fast as you fucking can, but remember their "existence." As you examine your identities, you will start to notice people using them against you. You're fellow DUers use them against other DUers very often. The people on TV use them. Commercials rely on them very heavily. Look for it, and you will see it. You're not a label, but you are being played. The map is not the territory.

(note: I am pretty drunk, so I hope this post makes sense)

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
29. If you wrote this drunk, I'm sending you a barrel.
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 10:19 AM
Oct 2014
My college major is propaganda, and the number one tool of propaganda is identity. According to my classes our identities are created for us, and are used to control us. Gay, American, male, mother, liberal, etc. It's all bullshit created by others and we desperately cling to them. Abandon them as fast as you fucking can, but remember their "existence." As you examine your identities, you will start to notice people using them against you. You're fellow DUers use them against other DUers very often. The people on TV use them. Commercials rely on them very heavily. Look for it, and you will see it. You're not a label, but you are being played. The map is not the territory.

okasha

(11,573 posts)
41. And I'll send another.
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 10:57 PM
Oct 2014

Mother M. Fidelis, OSU, my 7th.-grade teacher, condensed that to one sentence: "Labels are for pickle jars, not people."

cbayer

(146,218 posts)
30. What a great post!
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 11:27 AM
Oct 2014

I have never really looked at things the way you describe in your last paragraph, but it really rings true to me.

Thanks so much.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
31. Maybe because you were drunk...
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 12:57 PM
Oct 2014

But I have no idea what the Chinese government being atheist has anything to do with convincing you of anything. Nothing in atheism says to be a dickhead or not.

As for propaganda, I always get mad that most religions, even more benign ones, almost all rely on the indoctrination of children, and the tacit support of this indoctrination by society, to the point where calling it what it is offends.

pinto

(106,886 posts)
35. Inebriated or not, well said. I rankle at indentity labels, at times.
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 01:45 PM
Oct 2014

I am many things, as we all are, imo. And likewise, I am exactly who I am. Labels have a tendency to box us in, to define us. There's one aspect of myself that taught me a lot, taught me that I don't fit in a defined box. Thanks for your comments.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
39. I find it a tad ironic that in complaining about and rejecting labels, you are using them yourself.
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 05:09 PM
Oct 2014

cults, theists, Chinese, atheist, dickheads, criminal, bullshit, DUers

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
43. Good.
Tue Oct 28, 2014, 03:34 AM
Oct 2014

You should because those labels are fallacious. If I had my way, my labels would rub everyone wrong. I use labels often for convenience, but it almost always bugs me. I would love for you, or someone else, to call me out each and every time. That would save me a lot of personal grief.

In my opinion, labels are fine for convenience, but I fear that I perpetuate the belief in them every time I use them. There are other things in play for my label use too, such as habit and false beliefs.
I sincerely thank you for calling me out.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
28. yes and no
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 04:53 AM
Oct 2014

I became a lot more comfrtable describing myself as Agnostic because of what I read here, however, my discomfort with the term "athiest" increased.

To be put it bluntly, the first time I got turned off on the term Athesit was when madalyn Murray O Hair yelled out "an agnostic is just an atheist without GUTS!" Frankly, that tone reminded me of Christians,Muslims and others that would brag to my face that somehow, they knew more about me than I could myself, and therefore had the right to define me. Richard Dawkins doubled down on that, especially since he seemed to defend a lot of what used to be supported by religion, namely racism and sexism. If you are going to keep all the racism and sexism that was supported by religion, you are keeping all the toxic parts and ditching everything else.

Not that I would expect Atheism to be a monolith. Both Ayn Rand and Karl Marx have followers who claim to be Athiests. But if I am going to waste a large part of my existence hating and waging war against something that will never be resolved as long as humans think and feel, than there is no point. Hate is not the opposite of something, indifference is.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
32. Just because some people you don't like are atheists....
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 01:00 PM
Oct 2014

Doesn't change the definition of words. If you see people you dont like who are agnostic, will you drop the term?

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
36. I do see people I dislike who are agnostics
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 02:01 PM
Oct 2014

but the term agnostic does not involve proving ther is or is not a God. While soem atheists are quite mellow, when Murray O Hair seeks to define ME, she loses me. When Dawkins carries on a similar bent, he loses me. For the moment, these folk are being alloed to define modern athiesm, just as the iradicals are being allowed to define modern Islam.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
37. I dont think they're allowed to define modern atheism....
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 03:09 PM
Oct 2014

I think many people, especially the religious right, has been demonizing the term for a long time, and part of the strategy is to say that certain controversial people represent or define atheism, which isn't true, and also to say atheism is a religion. I see both of those strategies used extensively on here.

Considering the amont of demonization by society the term has endured and continues to, it seems like you are blaming the victim here.

The term atheism doesn't include proving or disproving God, it's simply a lack of belief. Theism doesn't include proving anything either. It's about belief.

Atheism has been intentionally defined as something it is not to make it an easier target for a long time now, and it continues to this day.

You compare Dawkins and OHair to radical Islamists, which shows how successful the religious right has been at demonizing the term, many people automatically think "militant". The comparison is terrible for several reasons, but the main one is that atheism says nothing about anything, whereas religion, like Islam, makes many claims and is full of opinions on morality. A radical lack of belief is non-sensical, and the opinions you disagree with have nothing to do with atheism.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
40. then what would you call Ms. Murray oh hair
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 08:09 PM
Oct 2014

"who stated an agnostic is just an atheist without guts?"

Look, I could care less what she believed; to quote jefferson "it neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg." But when she decided A) what I was and B) that I am just what she says without guts, I got the same aftertaste I get when a Muslima/Mormon/instert group tryign to convert me give off when they imply the same thing.

Now, I realize that O hair , nor dawkins, nor Ayn rand, nor marx, has the lock on any theism, much less athiesm. On the other hand, since this questions was about THIS board, I have seen the more "militant"types on here make an ass of themselves, along with the religious they fight.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218150219
http://www.democraticunderground.com/121816377

and scenes like that have made me reluctant to deal with anyone who clings onto ANY label, be they rastafarian or pastafarian.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
47. Comparing people like Dawkins or O'Hair to radical Muslims is irresponsible and wrong.
Tue Oct 28, 2014, 08:56 AM
Oct 2014

"An agnostic is just an atheist without guts" - is that the worst thing O'Hair ever said?

Shall we compare that to what Muslim extremists say?

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
48. OH so
Tue Oct 28, 2014, 12:45 PM
Oct 2014

When someone decides to attack another group, they get a pass because they are not Muslims, because of course, Muslims are eay targets at the moment?

Any time any group demonizes or illgetimatizes another is the first step towards amkign it easier to make them a lesser class of people, you know this, because you see the Christians do it all the time. If Murray who claimed to speak for Atheists (thankfully she did not) makes a statement like that, it deserves to be compared to the other times one group with an organized opinion on the subject of the Divine does the same.

and by protecting them, you also enable them to continue their ability to "speak for" atheists. Frankly, Athiests do not need a wonky genetics professor turned social critic or a lady who was murdered because she had been hiding away gold in her "AMERica athiests" group and that made it easy for her murderertosteal a . theism has done far, far better. But once we attack St. Dawkins, people break out their poms poms.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
49. Didn't say that.
Tue Oct 28, 2014, 01:08 PM
Oct 2014

I asked you if the things Dawkins and O'Hair have said actually compare to what Muslim extremists say. And I'm not defending any of them - I'm challenging your comparison. You haven't responded to that challenge at all.

Perhaps you can just answer one question: Did Dawkins or O'Hair ever advocate the murder of people for their beliefs?

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
50. no
Tue Oct 28, 2014, 01:19 PM
Oct 2014

although you know it is a short step to "so and so is just that" to "treat so and so like shit."

or saying "islam is one of the great evils of the world."

#at=17

Though I will say O Hari did not dance with violence, to her credit.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
51. So to answer my question, no, neither of them said anything calling for the murder of people.
Tue Oct 28, 2014, 01:30 PM
Oct 2014

Thanks for conceding the point. And of course we know that plenty of Muslim extremists have, and do. I can dig up some quotes or videos if you'd like. Or you could just punch "ISIS beheading" into Google and view the grisly evidence yourself.

Still gonna insist they're the same?

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
57. So callign somethign a great evil
Tue Oct 28, 2014, 02:43 PM
Oct 2014

is not allowing for killing? Especially in light of the fact that several Million Muslims have died because they were prtrayed as an evil?

It is very possibly to win a point, and have a useless argument, as several million parents in the Mid eat can tell you. Yes, Isis called for killing of people. We, lincuding the Atheist USSR, actually killed them for years before isis was a seed of anything.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
58. I think the idea of racism is a great evil.
Tue Oct 28, 2014, 02:46 PM
Oct 2014

Is that the same thing as advocating death to racists?

Oh and your USSR comment is both a red herring and also moving the goalposts.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
64. advocating death
Tue Oct 28, 2014, 10:56 PM
Oct 2014

of any sort tends to get out of control very very quick, regardless of who does it or why. For exmaple, there was a group in Italy formed to kick out the invading French. Their name was a code for "Morte Alla Francia, Italia Avanti" (Italian for "Death to France, Italy Forward!&quot But we know them as the MAFIA. The fact is, when Dawkins said "Islam is one of the great evils of the world" he was feeding the machinery of death that is killing Arabs around the world, including many who were Atheist.

Asfar as the USSR being a red herring or moving goalposts, it is not the goal is not to make it easier for human to kill other humans. Like it or NOT, the USSR did use propaganda to make it easy to kill Muslims, as did the US. I know that The USSR did not get the right to define Athiesm, but the fact they professed it and did many things that were laughable shows that our Humanity, for better and worse, trumps ANY ism. All Humans fail in predicatble patterns.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
65. But you have yet to show either Dawkins or O'Hair having advocated death to anyone.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 07:16 AM
Oct 2014

You're reaching desperately but have utterly failed to show any equivalence between "extreme" atheists like them and the extreme religious fundamentalists who not only wish death on others, but follow up on the threats.

Your hateful language toward vocal atheists is disturbing to say the least. Dawkins isn't advocating death for anyone, and I think even you know it. You've just committed yourself to this equivalence meme and refuse to let it go.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
70. if calling Islam a great evil
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 12:50 PM
Oct 2014

in a nation like England that is ponderign whether or not to go to war with the Muslim world, AGAIN,
and help kill a lot of Muslims, AGAIN
is not advocatign for death, what is?

And I already let O' Hair of the hook for violence, even though degarding a whole other area of belief is, at the very least, anti-social.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
71. Islam's very own holy book...
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 12:56 PM
Oct 2014

calls for people who were raised Muslim but reject the faith to be executed.

And yet here you are wanting to say the person who says that is monstrously wrong is JUST AS BAD.

Fuck man, I give up. Your mind is locked shut.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
73. The Communist manifesto calls for war
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 01:11 PM
Oct 2014

does that mean we should ban it?

Frankly, I can tell you that you are willing to broadbrush Yusuf the Muslim who works at the Deli with Yusuf who is a jihadi Syria.

I would put you on ignore, but you might take that as a moral victory, so I will still read your stuff, where Atheism is simply warped into an excuse to bully people who do not agree. Athiesm and Religion have one thing in common, they can be embraced by fools who simply want to make the world conform to their fears and desires.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
72. "Your hateful language toward vocal atheists is disturbing to say the least"
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 01:07 PM
Oct 2014

Do you claim to speak for "vocal athiests"? Funny, because I read Atheists from Carl Sagan to Penn Jilette, and I find them both enlightening. Now Sam Harris I find annying, but that is because he is agressive against people who happen to be Muslim:

Here is what another Athiest, Glenn greenwald (arguably a portion of DU is devoted just to discussing him says:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/03/sam-harris-muslim-animus

"The crux of those columns is that these advocates have increasingly embraced a toxic form of anti-Muslim bigotry masquerading as rational atheism. Yesterday, I posted a tweet to Hussain's article without comment except to highlight what I called a "very revealing quote" flagged by Hussain, one in which Harris opined that "the people who speak most sensibly about the threat that Islam poses to Europe are actually fascists."

Shortly after posting the tweet, I received an angry email from Harris, who claimed that Hussain's column was "garbage", and he eventually said the same thing about Lean's column in Salon. That then led to a somewhat lengthy email exchange with Harris in which I did not attempt to defend every claim in those columns from his attacks because I didn't make those claims: the authors of those columns can defend themselves perfectly well. If Harris had problems with what those columns claim, he should go take it up with them.

I do, however, absolutely agree with the general argument made in both columns that the New Atheists have flirted with and at times vigorously embraced irrational anti-Muslim animus. I repeatedly offered to post Harris' email to me and then tweet it so that anyone inclined to do so could read his response to those columns and make up their own minds. Once he requested that I do so, I posted our exchange here."

Now, I do NOT think Sam Harris speaks for Athiests, obviously GG had a way of showing that clearly, especially by quoting other Athiests that have nothing to do with Sam harris. While I myself disagree a lot with GG on certain things (like his support of Citizen's United), I have no reason to believe he mans any religious bigotry.

A willingness to broad brush in order to defend one's scared cows is "disturbing to say the very least." Are Dawkins and O hair the only ones who get to be called "vocal athiests.",or will you share that with those that disgree? If so, take it up with Penn Jilette, Car Sagan, Gleen greenwald, and other very vocal Atheists that find a willingness to paint all Muslims with the same Brush very distrubing.

I know, you will say that quoting other vocal athiests that disagree with dawkins is "appeal to authority", but if you are going to accuse me of being "hostile to vocal atheists" the burden of proof is on YOU, in which you may want to explain why was able to give examples to the contrary. I am not hostile to the authors who I have provided with readership and coin.

Dawkins could learn a lot from his fellow atheists such as the ones I mentioned, but frankly, I doubt he will, nor will those who gild him as some sort of atheist Prophet.

trotsky

(49,533 posts)
74. I don't claim to speak for anyone but myself.
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 01:15 PM
Oct 2014

*I* have a problem with your hateful language. The "New Atheists" in no way compare to murdering religious fundamentalists - but you're spreading the hateful message that they're the same. Dawkins writes books. ISIS beheads people. Yeah, they're totally fucking the same. I'm done with this. Feel free to have the last word.

Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
66. Been watching the History Channel, have we?
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 11:12 AM
Oct 2014
For exmaple, there was a group in Italy formed to kick out the invading French. Their name was a code for "Morte Alla Francia, Italia Avanti" (Italian for "Death to France, Italy Forward!&quot But we know them as the MAFIA.


Nope.

No one really knows for sure how the term mafia originated, but most serious scholars regard your tale as ahistorical nonsense. The word "mafia" is virtually unknown in Sicilian or Italian literature predating 1860 or so; though historian Guiseppe Pitre asserts the Sicilian word mafiusedda was used in Palermitin communities to describe beautiful women. Pitre suggests the masculine form of the adjective, miafiusu, would therefore connote the paragon quality of a Sicilian male--namely, courage.

Asfar as the USSR being a red herring or moving goalposts, it is not the goal is not to make it easier for human to kill other humans. Like it or NOT, the USSR did use propaganda to make it easy to kill Muslims, as did the US. I know that The USSR did not get the right to define Athiesm, but the fact they professed it and did many things that were laughable shows that our Humanity, for better and worse, trumps ANY ism. All Humans fail in predicatble patterns.


Yes, the USSR is a red herring. Specifically, it is an appeal to consequences. You're claiming the murder of "millions" of Muslims by the USSR was directly related to the Soviet government's official endorsement of atheism over religious belief.

This is a claim you cannot possibly hope to substantiate.

The USSR killed a lot of people, and not all of them were theists; the sweeping majority were killed for overtly political reasons. Orthodox priests, along with Social Democrats, were sent off to the GULAGs not because deeply paranoid men like Stalin had an axe to grind with believers, but because they saw these groups as political competitors to their authoritarian rule.

And your claim that atheist language alone led to the persecution of Muslims in the USSR is, frankly, fucking absurd. Yes, in the final years of World War II, the Stalin government forcibly deported Muslims from their homelands in Crimea, the Caucasus, and Central Asia. That's a given. But these deportations weren't couched in atheistic language; Stalin accused the Muslims of collaborating with the Germans against him.

Who knows whether or not these allegations were true. Honestly, it doesn't matter, because Stalin had much more concrete, and again political, reasons to break up the various ethnic enclaves speckling the USSR. Simply put, many of them were preventative security measures. Stalin feared nationalistic uprising in these enclaves and therefore tore them up root and stem, atheists and Party members right along with the rest.

The absurdity is palpable. If you're going to accuse people of "advocating death" on such a weaksauce connection, then I could just as well accuse you of advocating the deaths of communists.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
69. actually no
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 12:48 PM
Oct 2014

"
And your claim that atheist language alone led to the persecution of Muslims in the USSR"

No, not atheist language, language of violence, a language that all humanity is fluent in,regardless of whatever ism. The reason I brought up the USSR is because, despite being athiests, read again despite beign athiests, they did the sort of things theists did, including kill Muslims. The point is that being Atheists dd not have any effect, it did not prevent them from giving in to old hatreds. That is not saying Atheism is bad, but that it can be as useless as any other ism. Be careful what you read into things.

As far as where I got the Millions from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

" The decade-long war resulted in the death of 850,000–1.5 million civilians[23][24] as well as causing millions of Afghans to flee the country, mostly to Pakistan and Iran."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/55844/rajan-menon-and-graham-e-fuller/russias-ruinous-chechen-war

And that accounts for two nations.

casualties 25,00 to 50,000 inn the Second Checyen War.

and no, the last thign I would do is advocate death for anyone. Even if I had no morals, the last thing you want to do to any group, especially an ambitious group hopiing to gain power, is martyr them. Yes, I would rather political enemies be seen having to scrub the walls of the jails than become immortal martyrs. If we could have caught Ben ladin alive, he would be a much better propganda tool being filmed in the prison infirmary cleaning bedpans.


Act_of_Reparation

(9,116 posts)
75. Absolute rubbish
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 02:28 PM
Oct 2014
No, not atheist language, language of violence, a language that all humanity is fluent in,regardless of whatever ism. The reason I brought up the USSR is because, despite being athiests, read again despite beign athiests, they did the sort of things theists did, including kill Muslims. The point is that being Atheists dd not have any effect, it did not prevent them from giving in to old hatreds. That is not saying Atheism is bad, but that it can be as useless as any other ism. Be careful what you read into things.


Atheism is a simple proposition, dealing specifically with the existence of deities. It is not a moral code. It makes no claim that one who rejects the existence of deities will in any way prove morally superior to someone who does. And, most importantly, apart from disbelief in deities, it is not a proposition that unites people in any meaningful way.

No, officially embracing atheism did not make the USSR a particularly nice place to live. And there is absolutely no reason to suspect that it would have based on that quality alone. Furthermore, criticizing religion for its encouragement of violence does not, in any way whatsoever, suggest that an atheist society would be free of violence. Just because violence would continue to exist in the absence of religion doesn't make those criticisms of religion invalid. Why is that so difficult to understand?

Then, onto more nonsensical claims:

As far as where I got the Millions from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan

" The decade-long war resulted in the death of 850,000–1.5 million civilians as well as causing millions of Afghans to flee the country, mostly to Pakistan and Iran."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/55844/rajan-menon-and-graham-e-fuller/russias-ruinous-chechen-war

And that accounts for two nations.

casualties 25,00 to 50,000 inn the Second Checyen War.



The Second Chechen War was launched in 1999, eight years after the Soviet Union officially collapsed.

But that's neither here nor there, I suppose, because your point--that these wars were somehow directly related to "old hatreds"--is, nevertheless, a load of bullocks.

Both the Afghan and Chechen wars were about the Soviet Union and Russia asserting its hegemony over bordering nations, and in the case of Chechnya, its own territory. These were political wars. Religion, or lack thereof, had nothing to do with them whatsoever.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
33. I've become an anti-theist
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 01:04 PM
Oct 2014

and this forum influenced it to a degree. Seeing the harm in all false beliefs, even more progressive ones. Also, seeing the persavive privilege of religion that seems to shine most brightest in liberal circles in the US.

Finally, the rank hypocrisy and double standard as a result of said privilege.

pinto

(106,886 posts)
34. "persavive privilege of religion that seems to shine most brightest in liberal circles" ?
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 01:32 PM
Oct 2014

I don't see it. Most liberal circles I'm aware of have a fairly benign opinion of religions in general. And have a well justified opposition to extremist religious groups that seem intent on legislating their version of religious standards for everyone.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
38. Most people don't, because it is so pervasive...
Mon Oct 27, 2014, 03:17 PM
Oct 2014

Certain religious leaders are praised when they hold incredibly conservative views because religion gives them a free pass. Criticism of religious dogma that is very conservative is called bigoted or offensive. Those are the obvious ones that I see a lot in the US among "the left". The left in the US is very religious relative to other parts of the world. They don't see their own privilege and defend and uphold it all the time on here and elsewhere.

pinto

(106,886 posts)
61. Sorry, I still miss the basis for your point. Who on the left spectrum calls criticism bigoted?
Tue Oct 28, 2014, 04:49 PM
Oct 2014

Thanks.

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
68. Resa Aslan, Ben Affleck, Cenk of the Young Turks...
Wed Oct 29, 2014, 12:34 PM
Oct 2014

Are some recent big examples. Many other smaller voices on the left joined them. Many DUers have as well, especially re: Islam and the Catholic Church.

Many on the right are bigoted towards minority groups, including minority religious groups, but many on the left can't make the distinction because of religious privilege.

Most on the left don't even criticize religion or recognize it as a factor in violence or oppression, but instead offer up mealy mouthed apologetics for it. The ready made excuse being no true Scotsmen. This is just a bow to religious privilege. Having Rick Warren speak for the inauguration is a good example of this. Also, Bush, then Obama stating who is or isn't a true Muslim (re anyone who they like is, etc.) and declaring that Islam is a religion of peace etc., that's all religious privilege, no meaningful discussion of religion can take place in such an environment.

Religions are excused and defended, with most on the left being religious themselves, even identifying with religions with very explicitly bigoted texts and dogma. But the dissonance and contradictions are never addressed because of privilege, and pointing it out is "offensive".

The Democratic Party is still completely beholden to religious privilege, almost no atheist politicians feel they can come out even in the "left" party of the U.S., language in the Democratic platform referencing God was left in despite a strong opposition to it, nonbelievers are rarely if ever mentioned or have their votes sought.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
42. Extremists like who? Catholics? Because go ahead and try and pass death with dignity allowances in
Tue Oct 28, 2014, 12:04 AM
Oct 2014

Your state, and see who shows up to fight you.

pinto

(106,886 posts)
60. Yeah, there are extremist activists in the Catholic church as with any other religious group.
Tue Oct 28, 2014, 04:43 PM
Oct 2014

I think death with dignity legislation is a poor example, though. There's a wide range of opinions, pro and con, among religious, secular and professional communities. It's an issue that spans all those communities. And a tough one at that, for many.

AtheistCrusader

(33,982 posts)
62. I completely disagree.
Tue Oct 28, 2014, 08:27 PM
Oct 2014

Of the top 15 donors, 14 were explicitly catholic orgs. Of the individuals, 9 of the top 10 were identifiably catholic. Of the' secular' doctors org that opposed, I was able to identify, again, many Catholics, and mostly catholic hospitals participating. This was the most single-issue initiative I've seen in my life, in this state. It was as close to exclusively catholic as any issue can possibly get.

There was nothing extremist about the issue. Its mainstream.

pinto

(106,886 posts)
63. Thanks for the background data.
Tue Oct 28, 2014, 09:45 PM
Oct 2014

To me, it's a personal choice. I think many other Catholics, as well as other folks of any religion or no religion would agree.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
52. Yes, I have.
Tue Oct 28, 2014, 01:40 PM
Oct 2014

By talking to some of the more liberal Christians on DU, I realized that not all Christians were anti-gay hate mongers. Where I live, the vast majority are, but that doesn't mean it is like that everywhere. I quit hating all Christians based on the Christian school I went to and the violence I was the victim of because of what some really bad ones did to me in my hometown later on in life.

So, in a way, I have changed my mind about those matters. You'll never hear me agree with anyone like Pat Robertson, but there are some nice Christians who are not hatemongers out there too. I can't fault them for what others did, when they believe I should have equal rights and that God does not hate me.

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