Convince me to stay a liberal.

[F4lconF16]

Sanders was my last hope for liberalism. He was my last hope that maybe a liberal could make a difference, or at least convince people that the current system is not 1working.

But then I see shit like in this thread: this (alao my response: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1280&pid=77882) and I am totally ready to give up on liberalism entirely. I am done with the falsehoods, the pretension, the hypocrisy. I am done. Simply done.

Sanders isn't going to fix crap with supporters like this. (And Clinton is far worse, btw.) His movement, while it strikes at the heart of white america, is nothing when it comes to real transformatiom.

It does not embrace and center on black lives, or women's lives, or trans lives. His movement is about recreating an America that never existed. His movement is full of shit. I wouldn't say that except for the fact that almost every white person in Seattle that I've talked that supports him doesn't care at all about BLM.

I like Sanders. I think he gets it. But his movement doesn't.

If I don't vote for him, I'm done. I'm voting for the most left candidate, period. I couldn't care less about the Democratic Party. It has no meaning to me. It's a party that has fought for racism, for privilege, for the oppressors rather than the oppressed.

I'm done with it. It's time for radical solutions.

Convince me not to give up.

This is asking a hell of a lot from people who who have been asked far too much of already. But I really don't want to be done with the current system. The alternative is kinda crap. Revolution sucks. But I'm on the verge of becoming revolutionary, or at least close to it. So please, convince me not to abandon liberalism.

I want to believe.

[NanceGreggs]

1. It's not my job ...

... to convince you of anything.

[F4lconF16]

3. Truth.

But I'll just say this:

I'm not the only one who feels this way.

I have a feeling I may not be on this site for much longer.

[bravenak]

2. Hell, convince me first!

Stop thinking this is normal. Look and say, it is just a concentrate of all of the bad parts.

[F4lconF16]

4. I'm sorry...

But I'm confused by your response

Explain further?

Thanks in advance...

[bravenak]

6. Trash that group

[F4lconF16]

7. Fair enough

[Kind of Blue]

33. +1000!

[Number23]

5. All I got to say about this... Look at the people MAKING those comments and the people

applauding it. They represent the worst of DU and have for YEARS.

"Bernie was BLM 50 years before BLM existed."

This is PRECISELY, EXACTLY 987% why the tone deaf ignorance of so many of his supporters has turned off so many MASSES of black people. This kind of shit RIGHT THERE. THAT is why.

[F4lconF16]

8. Yeah...and i just got a massive dose of it at a gathering tonight.

I'm too young to remember what it was like years ago. But I imagine it was much the same.

This is why I'm a radical. And about done.

Ain't nothing to be fixed if we can't even talk about it honestly.

White people are bad about that (me included, as I realized yet again after a party where whites were about 4% of people). It doesn't seem to make a difference how liberal one is, the only ones that understand are the people that live it daily.

And only the far left seems interested in at least trying to understand, even if we can't. They're the only ones who haven't tried to pretend they could.

[Number23]

38. Unfortunately, it's up to intelligent, decent Sanders supporters to try to turn this around

And Lord knows I hope that there are enough of you because the OTHER Sanders supporters have gotten all of the publicity and have been running around for months making a fool of that man and insulting the very people needed for him to win.

We have lots of Sanders supporters in this forum and there are others all over DU that are as horrified by the behavior of the OTHERS as the rest of us are. Look at the Catherina situation. This woman was so unhinged and full of hate, she was actually flailing and lashing out at EVERYBODY including other Sanders supporters (joshcryer). Her behavior was so destructive that other Sanders supporters (including geek tragedy) worked to expose her. And geek tragedy got three hides for his trouble.

Though there will be some that will try their hardest to pretend that Catherina was run off because she's a Sanders supporter, or even worse a poc that supports Sanders -- because apparently, black people that support Sanders are the ones being hunted here to hear some special people tell the tale -- it was YEARS long abhorrent behavior that got people including decent, principled Sanders supporters to say "enough." That's the only way this kind of ignorance is going to go away. When the people ON YOUR TEAM say "enough." (Though having said that, the comments from TONS of decent, principled Sanders supporters including Thom Hartmann condemning the idiocy didn't do all that much.)

So you've got a tough job, Falcon. Most of the regulars in this forum (regardless of who we support or don't support) are long since past the point of seeing any benefit towards engaging with these people. We are tired of being told that we are calling Sanders a "racist" that we are "race naggers" who do nothing but "play the race card." It's up to you to take care of your own and you've got a hell of alot of work to do.

[F4lconF16]

42. I think you may be mistaken...

I do not consider myself a Sanders supporter. It took me quite a while to even consider voting for him after he started running. For a little while, I thought I might be able to go further than voting and actually support him, but his supporters have since convinced me otherwise. Right now, I can't even say I will vote for him when people ask me whether I support him.

His supporters have been my biggest turnoff. It was right after the BLM demonstration in Seattle that I came to a firm conclusion that his movement will never be my movement. He doesn't represent me--his focus on economics is opposite of what I've learned will bring us forwards. Without centering on trans lives, on PoC, on women--any of the oppressed--they will inevitably be left behind.

I have done my darndest to convince liberals in Seattle that BLM is even more important than the Sanders campaign. That building local communities and understanding our neighbors will do much more for the world than voting once and forgetting about it. That maybe, in fact, we are white supremacists. Nobody will even talk about it, let alone agree. The only ones that do are the ones that already had it figured out, the ones that I'm still learning from.

This OP was because I'm not sure if I can be part of his movement. He's about as true of a liberal as they come, and I'm not sure that his movement won't do more damage then harm. There's immense possibility and drive for a genuine third-party workers/minority movement, but he's taking that energy and dropping it into the Democratic party, something I am very uncomfortable with. He's avoiding discussing the fervent attacks by his supporters on any minority that dares to think otherwise. He's not calling out the inherent injustices in our Constitution and our form of government.

This movement doesn't represent me. You say I have a lot of work to do, but I'm not sure I even want to be near this movement, let alone supporting it.

[Number23]

59. Yeah, I did misread that! I thought you were a strong Sanders supporter.

I am very sorry about that. As someone who is constantly "reminded" that I support Hillary just because I am AA, I know how fucking annoying it can be when people decide/assume you support someone when you don't.

I really applaud you on the work you're doing in Seattle. I know this may sound trite, but even if you change one person's mind you've done remarkable work. I am really appreciative of what you're trying to do.

It was right after the BLM demonstration in Seattle that I came to a firm conclusion that his movement will never be my movement. He doesn't represent me--his focus on economics is opposite of what I've learned will bring us forwards. Without centering on trans lives, on PoC, on women--any of the oppressed--they will inevitably be left behind.

Alot of people have come to that same conclusion. Which I think is kind of sad because I agree almost 100% with what Sanders says. But I just wish he'd say MORE about other issues that are of equal importance to Americans, even hard working, close to poverty Americans.

As for his supporters, they have by far been the most revolting thing about his entire campaign. The fact that one white Sanders supporter on DU has taken it upon herself to speak for black people (when just about every black person on DU has made it clear we don't even want her speaking for WHITE people, let alone us) is entirely indicative of how tone deaf, out of touch and destructive his fans are. He deserved better.

[bravenak]

44. Damn straight.

Putting this in my journal.

[gollygee]

61. I don't see how we can turn them around

There are too many of them and they are intense.

I like Sanders and plan to vote for him, but I fully recognize he isn't perfect. You can't be in the Sanders group or in GDP unless you are willing to idolize him. Any mention of him being a human being and not perfect and you get pushback. Even if you support him.

I poke my nose in from time to time but I leave pretty quickly. I can't wait for the primaries to be over.

[Number23]

70. "I can't wait for the primaries to be over."

You and every single moderately intelligent person on this board.

[lovemydog]

11. +1

[Cha]

17. +!0000000000

[Kind of Blue]

29. +1000!

I can't believe that was even written but then again it is a funny thing to me, and I mean funny ha-ha, that Sanders is doing a great job of corralling them for HRC/the party and they don't even know it or want to even face the possibility. So the vicious ones can be as tone deaf as they want to be, Sanders won't speak to it because their passion for him is against the Republicans and is exactly what Clinton needs, no matter how much they hate her.

It is wise to "look at the people making those comments and the people applauding it," and there are many of them. As far as I'm concerned, on BLM activisim, the campaigns are using the tone deafness to solidify black votes for Clinton. The vicious Sanders' supporters are playing their part quite well.

[Number23]

37. I have been waiting for months for Sanders to say something about this behavior from his supporters

and he hasn't. At this point, I guess it's pretty safe to say that he won't.

The vicious Sanders' supporters are playing their part quite well.

You give them far too much credit, KOB! There is no doubt in my mind that they have gotten the reputation they have up and down the Internet for being clueless and paternalistic because that is exactly what they are. I don't think it was part of some design or plan at all.

[Kind of Blue]

39. I know, it's probably my conspiracy state of mind.

I just don't trust politicians as with prosecutors and public defenders. All this is conjecture but I think Clinton, of course, knew what was coming from the very far left and Sanders is setup as their balm. But BLM confronting him as "the socialist" knocked him off kilter because that's not what he's supposed to address as part of the sheepdog strategy. So he failed to act repeatedly and accordingly, as any candidate would have immediately done, with a large contingent he needs to convince. I don't think it has to be a grand design but just simple psychology of knowing how people feel and will react that the campaigns are using, for the imperative of keeping them in the fold to turn out to vote against the Republicans. She's been ordained to run unopposed, and what better way to keep people calm and hopeful than to let them think there's a choice in a real opponent on her heels.

I think this poster sums it even better than I ever could. I just feel that it was planned.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=835759 and this http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=835924

[F4lconF16]

43. Actually, those posts echo much of what socialist groups have been saying for a while...

He will take the popular energy that's revolting against any establishment tendencies and recapturing it for the epitome of establishment parties. When he most likely loses the primaries, he will endorse Clinton, and the Democrats will win yet again. Crisis averted for the establishment.

As many have socialists have said, they would have supported him if he had decided to run as independent. As it stands, they're far too nervous about what you suggested would happen.

[Kind of Blue]

67. "Crisis averted for the establishment," exactly!

I just don't believe the revolution we want can come from within the party, now to me the party of the status quo, no matter how brilliant Sanders is. Revolutions seems to always come from the streets. Not to lose morale, I had to start thinking beyond the election, after and during which, I think some change will come but will once again benefit and appease white people. But where will the great fervor be for the rest of us, I wonder.

“No one will find the way out of hate and violence unless we do. Go without hate, but not without rage… Heal the world!” – Paul Monette.

[randys1]

40. The attitude we are seeing here, that I cant characterize the way I want to as if I did

I would be hidden and banned, is it unique to here possibly?

Is Bernie aware of this at all?

How have we seen it manifested outside of DU?

[Kind of Blue]

69. I don't know any POC who is politically

aware that has not been confused by Sanders' stance last summer. We think that we're natural socialists. That movement has always included us in this country but failed repeatedly not because we don't understand socialism, but I think for placating unhappy white people and always managing to leave us out. And Sanders this past summer was the current Exhibit A. Then we're back to unhappy white people every few decades and the process starts again. Few white friends', about 3 in real life, knee-jerk reaction has been the same but not vicious at all. But the majority have known better since birth it seems and just as frustrated as me and you, randys1.

[Starry Messenger]

9. Don't think about labels. Think about process,

What work can we do that preserves and advances the greatest good for the working classes and the oppressed? Voting is one part of the package. But depending on voting is also not the full picture. Creating a conduit for further action with a more positive person in office can be an opportunity for advancement.

[Cha]

14. Thank you, Starry~ you're so smart!

[JustAnotherGen]

22. I should have read the responses

Prior to posting below - and just said - [phone]

[brer cat]

24. On point and on target

as usual, Starry Messenger.

[F4lconF16]

45. A good post...

And one I tend to agree with.

The problem for me is that labels have a fair bit of meaning. I am a socialist, and when I say that, I mean it. I don't know yet if I fully agree with revolutionary theory or not, but I absolutely believe in the immorality of profit and the capitalist system.

When it comes to making progress, one might argue that FDR made progress. But in doing so, he blocked a much more genuine movement from sweeping the US.

I worry that supporting Sanders may have a similar effect now.

More positive is a very relative term. More positive doesn't really do enough for me--yes, we can get past some things, but unless it is just straight up positive, we aren't going to solve any of the root issues. And I think that's what I've committed to at this point in my life.

And of course, voting will never be enough. But a vote is still a powerful thing. This OP is about much more than just Sanders.

[Starry Messenger]

51. Well, I'm a socialist too.

There are varying schools of thought on how to function as one though. The one I'm in holds that the right wing are the biggest obstacle to any social change, (while not ignoring that there are strains in liberalism that can perpetuate monopoly, racism, and other problems.)

Someone very sensible said something that made sense to me--even if the revolution came tomorrow, we'd still need to enact measures to bring equity to society. If we have an opportunity to bring some of those measures into being before any system change, there isn't really any good reason to wait.

I have heard that arguement about how reforms blunt "real" revolution--I even knew some people who said that Black people would be more revolutionary if the Civil Rights Act hadn't passed. I honestly don't think that's a productive line myself. I know from my own experience as a woman, that reforms that improve life free up energy to work for other advances.

And I know this goes beyond this one election, I was speaking more generally. I consider many liberals allies, because we are shoulder to shoulder on a variety of issues, and I think it is important to get feedback from friends about what they find important and relevant to their lives. Otherwise we can get isolated saying our goal is the goal that matters, and we know the only way to get there.

[F4lconF16]

54. Do you have a link to information on your school of socialism?

It echoes much of what I don't like about the revolutionary groups.

I think I may need to come up with my own brand

[1StrongBlackMan]

63. WOW ... Well put and very sound counsel. n/t

[Starry Messenger]

71. Aw, thanks everyone!

It's what works for me.

[lovemydog]

10. There's cool & creepy folks

most everywhere people gather. Wherever you go take care of yourself & find the stuff that refreshes you.

[Kind of Blue]

31. +1000!

[bravenak]

12. Btw: i recognized the fraud of it all to.

Do not trust politicians. Just don't.

[Cha]

16. bernieso#BLM..

Give.Me.A.*******.Break.

[bravenak]

18. Audacious.

[Cha]

19. Presumptuous.

[bravenak]

20. I say! Just so.

Desperation.

[uhnope]

13. so what will you become instead?

[F4lconF16]

46. Some form of socialist. Though I am already.

This is about convincing myself that voting for liberals isn't going to just postpone the problems we face now.

[lovemydog]

73. I'm not too into labels.

As Emerson said 'Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.' But I guess I sort of identify myself as both a democratic socialist and a democrat. My heroes aren't so much politicians. They tend to be down to earth people like my parents & family & friends. Or people I've run across over the years. Or people in letters or activism or music. I think I understand somewhat how you you feel. I'm a crossover person in the sense that I feel more radical than the mainstream democratic party.

I try and vote for the most progressive candidate on every ballot. Local, state and federal. It's mainly in how I identify that particular candidate as being progressive, not someone else's definition. My primary interest in posting here is in straddling that line of leftist with liberal because I think we need a human face to things and because I think coalition building is essential to progress. I don't look down on liberals, I consider them essential to that process, every bit as essential as the more leftist among us. I consider voting the least one does as a conscientious person. Not the most. The most is how you live your life day to day. How you treat people. I hope this helps a bit or that you can relate to it somewhat.

Happy Thanksgiving to you and your loved ones, F4lconF16!

[Cha]

15. "Not Sanders".. I like this part, F4lconF

"This ain't a white person fight. Don't you dare claim it is. This is a response to systemic oppression. BLM is a cry of pain, pain that white people cannot begin to imagine. It's a cry of dignity, of furious anger, of respect. BLM is about black lives. Not Sanders. Not fucking white people."

No fucking clue.

[JustAnotherGen]

21. Wow

I only see that group via links - have never posted there and never will.

I will tell you what I tell myself -

We have a choice - our Seniors eating cat food or our Seniors enjoying those years of their lives safe and snug as a bug.

Should the right wing wingnuts get their way and force child birth we have another choice - shelter, food, clothing, medical care insecure children or children who know their country loves them.

We have a choice - Same sex couples being able to marry but the next day losing their job or their home - or knowing they by law have the right to prosper.

I'm going directly after that OP - Civil Suits/Civil Court. We have a choice - do we want to live in a country where we are at the whims of the Domininant Culture in terms of receiving justice when murdered or beaten by cops? Or do we - the survivors get to have our day in court -

And sue the snot out of the individual cop and community that hired him for millions of dollars?

I've "come out" in two posts this weekend making clear - civil law suits will be most effective in stopping brutality by law enforcement. Take your drug laws, your pout rage over not being able to make BLM bow down to you as an individual, and your platitudes about MLK and shove off!

Millions of dollars need to be paid and any Liberal or Progressive who wants to poo poo that - is NOT my ally, is in the way, and needs to get out of my way or I'm blowing up up your mountain!


Now - did I convince you?

I've said before - with all due respect to the anti plutocrat, oligarch, corporate whore fascist overlords crowd - black folks KNOW. We have had HUGE wins staring with about 50 years ago when President Johnson made damn sure we were American Citizens. 100 years prior to that - we endured.

This is why the movement needs to be lead by black folks. WE KNOW how to put BIG WINS on the BOARD!

If we don't hold the line (and the little pups in BLM that are heads - women and lesbian included) - things will get worse for all groups who have benefitted from that leadership.

For women, for the GLBT community, for the poor, for the marginalized, for our New Americans, for the UU Church in TN, the Sikh temple, the Mosque, the Synagogue . . . stick with us.

We who are overwhelmingly liberal and progressive and Democratic Party VOTERS - we black folks know how to endure and get shit done!

Please - stick with us.

[Cha]

23. Excellent post, Gen~ Thank you.

"I've "come out" in two posts this weekend making clear - civil law suits will be most effective in stopping brutality by law enforcement. Take your drug laws, your pout rage over not being able to make BLM bow down to you as an individual, and your platitudes about MLK and shove off!"

[brer cat]

25. + a million, JAG.

The point that the movement must be lead by the black folks must be said over and over, unfortunately. Too many whites simply cannot get past the black face at the front of the room being the conductor, or maybe they are just so full of themselves that they can't accept that anyone has more experience than they do or their candidate does. You can see it on discussion forums and in person...they are so busy waving their hand in the air to make their next profound statement that they didn't even hear what was being said. Getting caught up in labels and purity tests is part of that same issue.

I am frequently reminded of my granddaughter when she started first grade. Her teacher told the students to arrange themselves around her on a mat, and my granddaughter protested "That's not how we are supposed to sit." The teacher said, "That is how I do it." My granddaughter responded "Well, I've been to kindergarten so I know how it's done." A lot of white folks have been to kindergarten...

[giftedgirl77]

26. Yes ma'am...

I saw above where you said you would've just put +1,000000,000 etc instead of writing this out.

Well, I'm glad you didn't because this is an excellent piece. Thanks for writing it.

[Starry Messenger]

28. I love this!

+1000

[Kind of Blue]

32. +1000, Preach!

[F4lconF16]

48. Thank you for this post.

I appreciate you posting your thoughts.

A few things in response...

We do have a choice. Between humanity and respect and understanding, and rejection of all of that.

But I don't know if the choice is between liberal or conservative. You have to understand, I have not had a long relationship with liberalism or the Democratic Party. I have never held a party membership, or been interested in one. To me, when I look at history, liberalism has simply been a much nicer form of conservatism. And it absolutely has been--the "republicans and democrats are the same" canard has never held much truth for me. There is a wide, wide gulf between the two. But there's an even wider gulf between liberalism and socialism, or communism/anarchism/etc.

I of course will always do my best to stand with the oppressed, to help them have their voices heard and their demands listened to. We absolutely need to send a clear message (and civil suits are one way to do that) about where our priorities lie--about the choice we have made.

But I guess this is the problem for me. Liberalism does not seem to do that. We talk about abortion and women's rights, but Democrats have not made it a priority. Look at Sanders--his movement is probably the most truly liberal movement I am likely to see in American politics in my lifetime. And it barely mentions gender inequality and the value of women's rights. We talk about BLM, but liberalism has shown again and again, countless times, that black lives are NOT a priority.

I just don't identify at all with liberalism. My question in the OP is, can I vote for a liberal in good conscience? Of course if the only options are between Democrat and Republican, I will always choose the former, but if there is a third-party running? I don't think I can. Sanders is the perfect example. He exemplifies the modern "left-wing" (by american standards), but his focus is 180 degrees from mine.

I can't tell you how much I agree that black folks need to be leading whatever new movement emerges--they, and women, and trans/gay folk, and others. We cannot succeed without prioritizing those voices.

So far, your post has come closest to salving my conscience. When you say that black folk have endured for hundreds of years, it reminds me that there will always be more progress to be made and that there will never be a perfect candidate or a perfect theory or a perfect party.

But then I listen to BLM protests downtown, and I hear them saying that we must reject the establishment. That we must reject what we have now. That we must NOT endure any longer, that we must RISE UP in opposition. And I have to say, I hear that message loud and clear. It's time for me to stand up in support of the oppressed, in rejection of everything about our current situation that places them at the bottom. It's time for me to listen to and fight for them.

The question for me is whether voting for someone like Sanders is going to help that. When history tells me he will at best postpone a movement and a rejection of our current society that we dearly need.

Apologies if this post isn't a great response, I'm fairly drunk at the moment...

[Tarheel_Dem]

78. zOMG! What JAG said!

[betsuni]

27. Ah, you think too much.

Henry Miller:

"Perhaps i am still very much of an American. That is to say, naive, optimistic, gullible. In the eyes of a European, what am I but an American to the core, an American who exposed his Americanism like a sore. Like it or not, I am a product of this land of plenty, a believer in superabundance, a believer in miracles."

On being a proofreader in France: "How could I have foreseen, in America, with all those firecrackers they put up your ass to give you pep and courage, that the ideal position for a man of my temperament was to look for orthographic mistakes? Over there you think of nothing but becoming President of the United States some day. Potentially every man is President some day. Here it's different. Here every man is potentially a zero. If you become something or somebody it is an accident, a miracle. The chances are a thousand to one that you will never leave your native village. The chances are a thousand to one that you'll have your leg shot off or your eyes blown out. Unless the miracle happens and you find yourself a general or a rear admiral."

"i have no money, no resources, no hopes. I am the happiest man alive. A year ago, six months ago, I thought that I was an artist. I no longer think it, I am one. Everything that was literature has fallen from me. There are no more books to be written, thank God. This then? This is not a book. This is libel, slander, defamation of character. This is not a book, in the ordinary sense of the word. No, this is a prolonged insult, a gob of spit in the face of Art, a kick in the pants to God, Man, Destiny, Time, Love, Beauty ... what you will. I am going to sing for you, a little off key, perhaps, but I will sing. I will sing while you croak, I will dance over your dirty corpse ...."

[F4lconF16]

49. I'm not sure how exactly this is relevant

but those quotes made me smile

have any more?

[betsuni]

60. Not surprising my response isn't relevant because I didn't understand your OP.

More Henry:

"To walk in money through the night crowd, protected by money, lulled by money, dulled by money, the crowd itself a money, the breath money, no least single object anywhere that is not money, money, money everywhere and still not enough, and then no money or a little money or less money, or more money, but money, always money, and if you have money or you don't have money it is the money that counts and money makes money, but what makes money make money?"

Notes From Underground (Dostoevsky):

"I am a sick man ... I am a spiteful man. I am a most unpleasant man. I think my liver is diseased. Then again, I don't know a thing about my illness, I'm not even sure what hurts. I'm not being treated and never have been, though I respect both medicine and doctors. Besides, I'm extremely superstitious -- well at least enough to respect medicine. ... No, gentlemen, it's out of spite that I don't wish to be treated. ... Of course, I won't really be able to explain to you precisely who will be hurt by my spite in this case; I know perfectly well that I can't possibly 'get even' with doctors by refusing their treatment; I know better than anyone that all this is going to hurt me alone, and no one else. Even so, if I refuse to be treated, it's out of spite. My liver hurts? Good, let it hurt even more!"

[randys1]

30. If Sanders isnt the nominee you are voting for some left candidate other than Hillary?

Is that what this is about?

[F4lconF16]

53. Not quite.

It's about whether I'm even willing to vote for Sanders.

[randys1]

64. Oh, so I was completely confused. sorry...either way, we vote for whoever the candidate is

as if our sisters, nieces and wives lives depend on it, because they do

[Kind of Blue]

34. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the loser kitchcen

and concentrate on working with those you unabashedly stand with. It's a freaking waste of time and good energy that's draining. Focus on what you do want. Join the groups of whites who understand what you're saying and are trying to be and learning how to be good allies while actively engaging in the BLM movement. The groups are out there because they know it's not about the ism but your heart that remains undivided and steadfast.

Trash them, as Bravenak succinctly put it. Trash them.

[F4lconF16]

50. Good advice...thank you for your thoughts. nt

[Blue_Tires]

35. Because the conservative side is even more useless?

Just do what I'm doing, which is supporting Sanders while keeping his "fans" at arm's length...

[lovemydog]

36. There's great wisdom in all the questions

& responses in this thread.

[JI7]

41. The US presidency is not a dictatorship. Jimmy Carter is one of the kindest

Well intentioned people we have and look what happened to him with the presidency. If it was up to him we would have started on a serious path on clean energy.

But he didn't just quit after that. He has done a lot of good in the world .

I have no question sanders wants the best for people but even he is not going to give up if he does not become president.

[ismnotwasm]

47. No

I know you are young and you live around my area--you want my advice? Join a group like socialist feminists. Attend as many pro-immigration protests as you can find. Find your local anarchists--go hang out at Left Bank Books. Talk to people.

http://www.leftbankbooks.com

Support Kshama Sawant-by that I mean, be involved in her political activism. Find a way to go to nurses legislative day on February 1st 2016--I'm going this year--you learn a lot about inside processes. If not that day then another.

Don't settle for what your heart can't accept, if you are not a Democrat, if the "liberal" label doesn't fit you, don't force it. Be that revolutionary--we need you to be. I came to be a Democrat by a process of years, as well as process of elimination. I was born a feminist I think sometimes.

Don't put too much trust in politicians to be what you want--they are all part of the same system--learn all you can about it. Don't buy into conspiracy theories, be radical, but be discerning.

That's the best I can do.

[F4lconF16]

52. Thank you.

I think this may be what I needed to hear...it struck a chord with me as soon as I read it.

Actually, this hit me pretty hard.

I should have been able to figure this out on my own, but I've been struggling with this question for months now and couldn't arrive at a conclusion. I guess I just needed someone to tell me what I kinda already knew.

I will be saving this post to come back to...thank you. Really, thanks, Ism. You have no idea how much you've changed my life. Or maybe you do. I hope so.

[ismnotwasm]

58. ..

[840high]

55. ...^ that

[GitRDun]

56. Don't give up on us...white people are just a little dumb when it comes to this stuff.

I'm 52. White. I live in the Chicago area. My dad was a tradesman in the city. Pretty much racists...although they tried to hide it in mixed company. This was the generation of stupid that MLK fought to get civil rights.

My generation was raised by these people. I was wired differently...never saw things the way my dad did. However, a lot of white people my age really struggle with race because we were indoctrinated into a life where privilege is normal.

The good news is, no matter how many of us think like buffoonish privileged dufusses, our kids don't think that way. My town is a tea bagger town, with many my age still displaying these intolerable views. But OUR KIDS DON'T THINK THAT WAY AT ALL.

They all cross cultures just like breathing. You can see it in their friend groups from grade school now into college. They do naturally what my generation would naturally NOT DO.

So don't worry so much about the people on here...we'll get old and retire. Our kids will fix it despite our views.

[kwassa]

57. I've never defined myself as a liberal.

Nobody has ever come up with the exact political mix that I have believed in, and never will.

Definitions are not important. Vote for what you believe in, or vote the closest available candidate to your position, otherwise the assholes win.

There is no one that excites me in this election, yet I will vote for any Democrat that wins the nomination because the alternative is regressive insanity.

[nc4bo]

62. Sorry, no can do. You are on your own.

As are each of us.

I'm considering becoming an inDy. Really sick of the bullshit here, there and everywhere.

To all the politicians, lay that spread on the table and I'll take it from there. Don't send out your doves or lions thinking I'm an easy lay, not happening anymore. I'm wide freaking awake at 53 years old and did my best to open my children's eyes as wide as mine.

Don't care what others blah on about, if we're eye to eye on a majority of issues of importance than we have a deal, if not

All that to say.....if you're not feeling "liberal" than there is absolutely nothing I can do to persuade you and I can/will not, that's something only your unique life circumstances can do.

[1StrongBlackMan]

65. F4lconF16, just some random, disconnected thoughts ...

I sense, and understand, your frustration; but societal change is a process, not an event or a "movement." It is slow to show results, unrecognizably slow, especially to those working to effect that change. But know, that merely having the conversation, even when it appears to be falling on deaf ears, is adding energy to that change.

I think that releasing yourself from ALL labels will free you to travel your path.

[randys1]

68. AFAm have had good reason to not just give up a long time ago but do so with vengeance

and yet....

[lovemydog]

74. +1

'releasing yourself from ALL labels will free you to travel your path.'

Happy Thanksgiving my friend.

[BainsBane]

66. You don't need to be a liberal to vote for Sanders or any other Dem

I see voting as something I do, not who I am. The ballot does not capture or define my political consciousness. You can vote for who you think best, or least objectionable, and still work outside the system. Many people do. I see no virtue in, as you indicate a desire to do, "believing." He's a politician. They are all politicians. You can vote for them and hope for the best--more importantly work for the best--but to put faith in him (or any of them) is folly. Even if a candidate were entirely well intentioned, the system is set up to resist profound change.

I myself believe Sanders has some good intentions but too readily misleads the public as to what he can do. Seeing comments by him about, for example, single payer being a non-starter in 2010, I do not believe he thinks it a viable option in the current GOP House and Senate majority climate. I resent being bullshited to that extent, and I resent a pol pretending that voting for him is a revolution. If you, however, see him as the best or least worst alternative, vote for him. Voting takes maybe an hour. It doesn't need to define your life. Leave the voting booth and go about doing the things that you think have an impact on society. It doesn't have to be an either/or choice.

[JustAnotherGen]

77. You articulated something I have "felt" quite well here

I resent being bullshited to that extent, and I resent a pol pretending that voting for him is a revolution.

Like it or not - the word Revolution as well as the concept has been invoked by the campaign and supporters alike. Revolution will not come via the Federal Republic representative method of governance in the current political environment.

Voting for Sanders will no more change that environment than voting for Clinton or O'Malley will. It comes down to who can best navigate a House that will remain Republican in January 2017 and appoint SCOTUS judges. The Senate we have a chance at as the Republicans are going to be playing defense for those seats next year - and quite a few are in states that are Gettable Gets.


The Freedom Coalition aka TEA Party will continue to be rewarded on their gerrymandered districts. IE The House remains a hot mess.

[Kind of Blue]

72. Just wanted to post what activists, working from their hearts,

are doing in your area that will benefit us all. First Seattle then hopefully the rest of us will get their technology.

Activists Acquire GPS Data and $30,000 in lawsuit decsion, build Cop Check Database on Police Officers Investigated by the Department’s Office of Professional Accountability

Washington-based organization Center for Open Policing (SEACOP) recently sued the city of Seattle, the State Patrol and the Tacoma Police Department over access to public records and won. They received more than $30,000 compensation and access to historical GPS data showing travel patterns of police vehicles, according to the Seattle Times.

The location data is going to “open up a whole new level of visibility into SPD patrol operations,” allowing analysis of police coverage neighborhood by neighborhood and shift to shift, SEACOP member Phil Mocek told reporter Steve Miletich. He went on to explain “this data belongs to the public,” as well as “the citizenry deserves to know where the patrol cars go, how frequently, where they are used, and how often.”

http://www.copblock.org/147769/activists-win-30000/

[aikoaiko]

75. Just vote your conscience.

[Gloria]

76. Well, consider the GOP contolling all levels of government

like they do in so many states...think about a Justice Dept that doesn't give a shit about voters,etc.

Think about a Supreme Court that goes hard, hard right...

Then, put on your big boy/girl pants and vote to keep these creeps out of office...

If you don't you will be really helping to screw yourself long term...

[KittyWampus]

79. A Comparison Between Sailing And Politics:

as someone upthread, it's not my job to convince you, however I would like to point out how progress is generally made.

While the Left is more populous and more closely linked to the Common Good and the betterment of society, it doesn't have the same vicious capacity to win at all costs nor the huge amounts of money.

Therefore I compare politics to the Left with sailing. Sailing against a strong wind, the only way to move forward is to tack. In politics it's the same thing, you have to triangulate. Now pragmatics know this and accept it, but their weakness is they sometimes 'triangulate' simply for the sake of moving and also their moral compass may falter.

What I see amongst many Sanders supporters is a tendency towards being ideologues. People who INSIST on a path straight forward. People who shriek about authoritarianism yet are unable to deal with those with varying opinions or strategies. People who must see their political foes render total capitulation.

So look within and decide, if you are a liberal, how you want to make progress. Do you prefer none at all or a little at a time.

Yes, occasionally society makes a large step directly forward. But that is rare and if you look closely, you'll find a lot of smaller steps behind that one big step.