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[darkangel218]

This message was self-deleted by its author (darkangel218) on Fri Dec 21, 2012, 11:23 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[sinkingfeeling]

1. Really? Go talk to some.

[darkangel218]

6. I am one of the "some"

And I own a hand gun and two rifles. Trust me, I will never be a victim again!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

12. Good for you. Your position shows good sense.

[sinkingfeeling]

15. I know 5 rape victims of various ages and none own a gun.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

24. Well, according to post #6, you just met another rape victim who does.

In what way exactly does it matter that you know rape victims who choose to not own firearms for self-defense?

Isn't that their choice?

Why should their choice dictate what others should do or not do?

[sinkingfeeling]

25. I'm not the OP who stated 'cuz it will never happen' in reference to all rape victims.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

28. Actually, the phrase "a rape victim" was used in the OP. Not "all rape victims."

There's nothing in the OP to indicate that she was referring to all rape victims.

There's nothing in the OP at all to indicate that she wants all rape victims to be armed.

Why would you attribute something to her which she did not say and did not imply?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

34. nice try, but we can read english just fine. nt

[sinkingfeeling]

35. Read it again. "Themselves" is plural. I did not get that she was only refering

to herself at all.

"Try to convince a rape victim not to arm themselves
Good luck on that, cuz will never happen."

[AnotherMcIntosh]

45. "Themselves" is both plural and singular depending upon how it is used.

In addition, the fact that there may be more than one rape victim who has armed herself or may do so only means that there are multiple rape victims in that category.

From the plain words of the OP and the context, it is obvious that the author of the OP is not advocating that all rape victims will arm themselves. Nor does it mean that she believes that all rape victims should arm themselves.

[bettyellen]

58. this is exactly like the BS about "assault" rifles and "semi" automatics... when you don't have a

honest reply, parse the wording and make it ALL about the wording. Even when you know exactly what was being said.
Bullshit.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

80. No. It's plain English.

[VanillaRhapsody]

2. As a rape "survivor"....I disagree...never owned a gun in my life.

[Speck Tater]

3. Easy to do.

Given them a toy gun and tell them to demonstrate how they'd use it by having a large man grab them and act like they were going to rape them. They would discover for themselves how completely useless, and how potentially dangerous having a gun would be. See how secure they feel when the toy gun is taken out of their hands by force and pointed at their own head.

[darkangel218]

4. Completely useless??

Wow! I would laugh, but I remember when I was raped like yesterday. I can swear to you o wouldve shot that animal in a heart beat had I been armed!

I will never let that ever happen to me again!

[Speck Tater]

14. I really do sympathize, and I'm sorry for your ordeal.

But fantasies about what you would do with a gun are no answer.
Take a legitimate self-defense course. Learn how to protect yourself. Find out from someone with real world experience whether pepper spray or a gun would do you more good.

Relying on a dreamed up fantasy about how you would shoot the bad guys is worse than no preparation at all. It simply wouldn't go down that way in reality. Yes, you certainly would want to shoot that animal in the heart. I don't blame you. But what would actually have happened if you had had a gun on you that day? Who would have ended up with a bullet in the heart? Probably not the bad guy. Sorry, but as satisfying as revenge fantasies are, they are not preparation for reality.

[darkangel218]

23. Self defense??

I was raped on knife point! Do you really think my self defense skills would've made a difference??!?

Please don't traumatise us again by asking us to give up our weapons! It's not going to happen!

[Speck Tater]

41. I understand.

Comforting fantasies are so much easier than real training.
But comforting fantasies won't actually help you. I know your angry. I know you never want that to happen again. I really do understand. But fantasies are not what you need right now. I'm on your side. Really. I want you to be safe. Fantasies will not make you safe. They will only make your FEEL safe. And only until it happens again and your fantasy is exposed for what it is.

The truth will set you free. But first it will piss you off.

[Glaug-Eldare]

7. Poor little girls,

Last edited Fri Dec 21, 2012, 01:47 PM - Edit history (1)

so helpless to react when a big strong man is after them. Especially when you define the start of the encounter as immediately after the defender is restrained by the attacker.

[Lizzie Poppet]

13. Yes, that's one possible outcome....of many.

It's even a reasonably likely outcome if you've already been grabbed by someone larger and stronger than you, particularly if you panic and immediately try to draw the weapon (when the assailant's mind is focused specifically on subduing you). It is not, however, the only possible outcome, even in a situation that's already become tactically fucked up.

[Speck Tater]

21. Yes. You are on the right track now.

Simply having a gun is no protection at all. You must know exactly what you will do with that gun, and how you will do it, and when you will do it. You must know when you will have the advantage and how to use that advantage. You cannot simply say to yourself "I have a gun, therefore I am safe." That is a dangerous fantasy that will get you killed.

In short, if you want to carry that gun for protection then in order for that gun to be of any use whatsoever you must get serious training, including a lot of hands on practice against real opponents in realistic simulated attacks. If you don't, you will react out of panic and fear and you will do the wrong thing at the wrong time in the wrong way and you will get yourself killed.

[Lizzie Poppet]

65. I wholeheartedly agree.

In fact, I make it a point to urge anyone I know considering a firearm for self-defense to think long and hard about whether they're willing to commit to training and regular, effective practice, to also purchasing proper security measures for storing the weapon, and so forth. If they don't really want to do these things, I recommend against a firearm.

[spin]

77. You sound so absolutely positive that you are right. ...

I will definitely agree with much of your advice as you make some very valid points.

It only makes commonsense to take classes on gun safety and to go to the range and become proficient with your weapon. I advise everyone who is considering buying a firearm for self defense to do this.

It also makes good sense for a woman to take a self defense course which can teach her some basic techniques for warding off an attacker and escaping. Such courses often emphasize the importance of "situational awareness" which basically means you do not walk down lonely streets with a cell phone glue to your ear but instead are alert to your surroundings. The best way to avoid a dangerous situation is not to be there for it to happen.

I do see your point. Having a firearm without knowing how to use it is a lot like borrowing a book on karate from the library and studying it. The skills you read about will do you little good in a fight unless you practice them with another person and better yet take a class on karate.

However I feel a woman with minimal training who is armed with a weapon like a snub nosed revolver can use it to stop a rapist. Rapes occur at arms length. If the woman is able to access her weapon she can push the "snubbie" into her attackers belly and pull the trigger. Such revolvers are often called "belly guns" for good reason.

As I have said, I agree with your advise but I disagree with the way you word your assertion:

In short, if you want to carry that gun for protection then in order for that gun to be of any use whatsoever you must get serious training, including a lot of hands on practice against real opponents in realistic simulated attacks. If you don't, you will react out of panic and fear and you will do the wrong thing at the wrong time in the wrong way and you will get yourself killed.

I would replace the words "you will" with "there is a good chance" or "you may."

[Speck Tater]

95. Good. points. And I agree. nt

[AnotherMcIntosh]

17. It's impractical for women to defend themselves with firearms? As reported a few months ago:

"A Springfield man remained in the Clark County Jail on Friday night after he pleaded not guilty to rape and kidnapping charges arising from a woman’s report to police that she shot him after he assaulted her.
Duane Portman Sr., 44, was arraigned on Friday and ordered detained on a $50,000 bond.

"According to county Municipal Court records, Portman was shot in the face Sunday, Sept. 2, at his business, Labelz 4 Less, by a woman who told police Portman held a gun to her head and raped her inside the business in the 1600 block of East Main Street.

http://gunsinselfdefense.com/2012/09/12/rape-victim-shoots-attacker-in-the-face-during-attack/

[darkangel218]

26. Yould be surprised how on guard and quik former victims are!

I don't want to be graphic but I could discribe you in detail what would happen if someone grabbed me.

[Glaug-Eldare]

31. I'm loath to say you're dead wrong, but the fact that you say

"I could describe in detail what would happen" suggests to me that you could not. Attackers don't follow hard and fast rules, and there's no predicting what they will have, what their build will be, what the situation will be... There are too many variables for anybody to describe it before it happens. You can train to be prepared for such situations, but you can't predict them.

[darkangel218]

36. You are right there are alot of variables.

But my variable will be armed. And that's my choice and my right.

[GreenStormCloud]

50. Only if they are not willing to pull the trigger.

Rapist don't automatically have super-ninja skills. Disarming an armed person always works in the movies because it is in the script. It works far less often in real life.

Tell these women that a gun against a rapist won't work. Each of these intruders ended up dead, except the last one. He was wounded, arrested at hospital. I can easily post lots more stories of women who have used guns to defend themselves.

12 year old girl shoots home intruder. 911 call

[AnotherMcIntosh]

56. Even the last one, of course, shows that even a 12-year-old girl can defend herself.

Good for her, and the others.

[Prometheus_unbound]

5. .

Good, so they can shoot their husband, boyfriend, friend or relative? You know, they kind of people that commits the vast majority of rapes?

[Glaug-Eldare]

9. Oh, it was just her boyfriend that raped her?

Guess it's no big deal, then. No need to prevent things like that.

[HangOnKids]

59. Really Uncool and Quite Ridiculous

The poster did NOT say that and you know it.

[Glaug-Eldare]

105. Sure seems that way to me.

The way I read it, Prometheus_unbound is saying that using deadly force against a violent attacker is not appropriate, since they might be the defender's husband, boyfriend, friend or relative. The fact that a relationship may exist between a rapist and their victim does not make it less heinous, damaging, or malicious. Saying that it does seems to imply that husbands, boyfriends, friends, and relatives have some (small) measure of privilege -- that they get to rape without being subjected to deadly force in defense.

[darkangel218]

10. If the husband, boyfriend or relative atempts to RAPE

Fuck yes! Are you saying rape should be allowed???

[HangOnKids]

66. The Poster Never Said Anything Of The Sort

You know that.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

19. And the problem is what, exactly?

[Eleanors38]

37. Is this the "legitimate rape" exception we've heard so much about lately?

[Rocky888]

8. Right after being attacked!

A man broke into my apartment late one night 25 years ago. He was on top of me before I could create a thought or grab a gun.

The week following, I bought a hand gun. Even though I knew that a gun would not have saved me that night. But, for a year or to, it made me feel a little more secure. I still have that gun, locked away, out of harms way.

When I hear these idiots say how they could have prevented and saved those children, had the principle hada gun, shows how out of touch these people are. The element of surprise by an attacker makes it nearly impossible to protect yourself with a gun. But, it gives you a few months of false security, after being attacked. And, I can say this with experience.

And, the treatment I received from the detectives was almost as vile as the beating and assault I received by the attacker.

[Speck Tater]

38. You think so?

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=7298996&page=1#.UNSchHfInju

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/video/defend-gun-7312540

And there was a pair of videos posted here on DU a few days ago showing a TV report with simulated attacks with people who had guns loaded with paintball blanks and who claimed to know how to handle weapons who ended up "dead" (paintball splattered) and never got the attacker.

I know you really, really, really want it to be true. But what you are saying is a dangerous fantasy. A fantasy that can get you killed.

[darkangel218]

42. I KNOW SO!!

I work in security and I took more than a handful of criminal justice classes. You can't change the society overnite, nor can you ignore the reality. Passiveness and flowers don't help.

[Speck Tater]

46. Be careful. Certainty can be fatal. nt.

[Glaug-Eldare]

43. Being tested under bizarre, unfamiliar conditions

after receiving very brief training under ideal conditions by trainers and journalists with a vested interest in ensuring that the students would fail. They did not claim to be marksmen, except for one XBOX kid who thought Halo would translate into real life.

[PavePusher]

48. And it's been explained repeatedly how that scenario was "fantasy" to use your favorite word. n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

75. That was NOT a realistic test.

The armed students were set up to fail. The so-called test was stacked against them. Here are ways it was stacked:

Armed students had on thick gloves, which make firearms handling difficult. Real World: Who wears gloves indoors in a classroom?

Armed student has on greatly oversized shirt, which made gun difficult to access. Real World: CCWers dress so that they can get to the gun.

Shooter was a police firearms instructor - a gun expert. Real World: Rampage shooters don't have that level of proficiency.

Shooter knew in advance that there was an armed student. Real World: Because they are in a gun-free zone they expect everybody to be unarmed. They are greatly surpised on those rare occasions when someone shoots back.

Shooter knew in advance exactly where the armed student was. Real World: Shooter doesn't know that there is an armed citizen present.

ABC set up a phony test to push their gun-control agenda.

[NYC_SKP]

62. Some people think your comment is an NRA talking point.

I disagree.

And, in fact, I can name schools where teachers have firearms as a matter of course, and nobody in the community has a problem with it.

Your comment was alerted upon.

It might not be a popular stance, but it seems a point that you ought to be free to make.

At your own peril, but free nonetheless to make.

[darkangel218]

72. Any pro RKBA post seems to be a bloody NRA " talking point "

Fuck the NRA! I'm not associated with them or any other organisation! I'm a democrat who belives in her second amedment. And I'm tired of seeing our right to bear arms trashed around and called RW!!! It's disgusting!

[NYC_SKP]

74. I was juror #3 on the jury that adjudicated an alert:

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Crazy talk. The teachers in this school IF they even had guns would not have had the time to unsecure those weapons before confronting Lanza. NRA talking points on DU is just gross!

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Dec 21, 2012, 01:26 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Just because you disagree with a potential course of action (and opinion) doesn't mean it should be hidden. Security guards isn't a bad idea in addition to some gun control measures.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: It is a rant but crimes do tend to be lower when armed guards are present. The post is not only about arming teaches and it is just an opinion.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Not an NRA talking point. Not all points that you disagree with are NRA talking points!
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Hiding a post is not confronting the message, which is being refuted and is not a personal attack etc. This is in the gungeon where this sort of thing is to be debated. This shit is why I only come in here when dragged in on a jury.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: While I do adamantly disagree with the reasoning, and agree that is
boilerplate, it speaks for itself. Let it be.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

Happy holiday!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

11. Apparently you post is being misinterpreted by some as meaning that all rape victims arm themselves.

A truly liberal position would be consistent with the view that those rape victims who choose to own a firearm for self-defense should be allowed to do so.

And law-abiding rape victims should be allowed to do so without any discussion about whether they should also belong to a militia, own muskets, own firearms which do not have plastic stocks or otherwise look scary.

For those rape victims who do not choose to own firearms, the liberal position should be that the choice is theirs to make.

The contrary authoritarian position under the big "D" label (by those who presume to speak for all Democrats and particularly liberal Democrats) is that no rape victims should be allowed to buy or continue to own firearms for self-defense.

[Lizzie Poppet]

16. A poster in another forum here...

...stated that the difference between a "liberal" and a "progressive" is precisely the sort of differentiation your post describes. The former would allow people to make their own choice; the latter would make it for them. With only their best interest in mind, of course...

Proud to be a liberal, thanks.

[darkangel218]

20. I posted this OP as a reply to other posts who attack my right to defend myself.

Sorry I wasn't more specific.

[Lizzie Poppet]

69. Sorry for wandering more than a little off on a tangent.

Train of thought got a bit of a head of steam up!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

22. Sometimes I find it hard to distinguish for myself the difference between a liberal and progressive.

But I was raised with the term "liberal" and I often like to refer to myself as a liberal (rather than a progressive) because the term seems to piss off the right-wingers. (Just to clarify, I am a liberal and not a libertarian.)

Over time, I've seen that some of those who post on this board and call themselves progressives, or liberals, are not progressives, liberals, or even Democrats. Instead of remaining true to traditional Democratic values, there are those who demand lock-step type thinking. The authoritarians destroyed the Republican Party from within. Other authoritarians are in the process of trying to do that to our Party as well.

Regards,

[Lizzie Poppet]

68. It's a very real division in the leftist community.

I'm not on the side of the authoritarians (as I suspect is obvious). I've been aghast at how many DU'ers seem to be insisting on ideological purity and actively urge censoring deviation from the "straight and narrow." I can see banning outright support of the GOP and unabashedly right-wing advocacy. But many of these folks seem just as willing to silence people who are merely a different sort of liberal than they are. I find that profoundly contrary to genuine liberal thinking.

[Eleanors38]

40. Agreed. I think some Demos can remember: "Freedom of choice."

[HangOnKids]

60. Demos?

What does that mean Eleanor? I have seen it as a slur on other sites. Just askin'.

[Eleanors38]

90. Just answerin'...

I have seen "Demos," "Dems," "Big Ds," and other references to Democrats used in short hand for yrs. in (ahem) "D"U. You are the first to call it something other than that, and to term such negatively.

What's really on your mind, fellow democrat?

[HangOnKids]

97. Done Talking To You El

[AnotherMcIntosh]

101. Some people have all the luck.

[villager]

27. While I'm sorry for what happened to you, how does this translate into allowing military grade

...weapons onto our streets, where they can plow six bullets a second into the body of a child?

[darkangel218]

30. It doesnt.

I'm against assault weapons, they should be banned. But please don't mess with my right to own a hand gun and hunting rifles, even though I don't hunt.

[villager]

32. Exactly.

n/t

[PavePusher]

51. One of my hunting rifles is one of the ones some people want banned.

So, what do we do about that?

[darkangel218]

53. If you own it already, i would do nothing.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

55. How many hunting rifles do you have? There are some who want all rifles banned.

And then there are some who are more moderate and will allow you to keep a flintlock.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

29. I've been thru it twice, and I will never carry a gun again.

If I had had a gun the first time, I would probably be dead (ambushed, no time to react), and it wouldn't have helped the second time either (date rape).
Having a gun around kids is FAR more of a threat to me.

[darkangel218]

33. Thats your opinion and your right to do as you chose.

Please don't impose it on everyone else .

[Viva_La_Revolution]

39. not imposing it on anyone

just saying I choose based on reality, not emotion.

[darkangel218]

44. Your perceived reality is not everyone elses reality.

Chose for yourself and let others make decisions within their legal rights!

[Speck Tater]

49. Please, please, please.

For your own safety, don't confuse fantasy with reality. Especially not fantasy fueled by anger and fear. You are setting yourself up for disaster. If you want to protect yourself, as is your right, get some real training by people who can teach you, and help you actually practice ways to protect yourself. Muscle memory is more important that brain memory in the field. You have to go through the motions so many times that when crisis strikes your muscles know what to do without your brain having to think about it. Anything less can and will be fatal. Please, please, please, don't kid yourself with false fantasies of Rambo gunplay.

[Speck Tater]

57. I'm sorry about your trauma. I'm trying to help because I care. nt

[darkangel218]

61. By victimising me again and telling me my rape is a fantasy??

[HangOnKids]

64. The Poster Never Said Your Rape Was Fantasy

In addition he is quite sympathetic to your ordeal.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

89. He said "don't confuse fantasy with reality. Especially not fantasy fueled by anger and fear."

Whose "fantasy" is he referring to if not the poster's? Why should he imply that the poster has a "fantasy fueled by anger and fear"?

If you sincerely believe that he is not critizing the poster with words implying that she has a "fantasy fueled by anger and fear," why is he using those words and directing those words towards the poster?

[bettyellen]

96. the fantasy is that the gun would be used by, and not against her next time.

because the latter is statistically more probable.
if you followed the conversation, that was pretty clear.

[HangOnKids]

98. The Poster Was Talking About Her Fantasy About What She Would Have Done If She Had A Gun

During her assault. It is really clear in the post, sorry you didn't catch it.

[Speck Tater]

94. Your rape was NOT a fantasy.

And I never said it was.
The fantasy is believing that simply carrying a gun will solve the problem.
That gun is less than worthless unless and until you get loads and loads of training and practice in how to use it in a crisis. Without that training, thinking that a gun makes you safe is a fantasy, and I stand by that. And that is exactly why I told you in an earlier post: Don't get a gun, get training in how to protect yourself.

[darkangel218]

99. "Don't get a gun, get training in how to protect yourself."

You keep insisting on telling me what to do, as I you would have any right to do that.
It's getting funny , carry on.

[Speck Tater]

100. I'm done. Best of luck. nt

[Viva_La_Revolution]

79. never said they couldn't

and I use Reality as in facts and statistics, not 'perceived reality' as in emotional response.

[darkangel218]

81. You dont have the stats to prove it.

Because guns save lives. Guns deter crime.

Bring up the stats which say guns do more harm than good plz

[Democracyinkind]

54. Because a gun would somehow would have helped me?

The only difference it would have made .... I can't even write this out...

[darkangel218]

67. Guns save lives every day!! even as a simple deterant!

Wow... I can't argue the ignorancen. To each their own, but please don't mess with our constitutional rights. I'm all for gun control, as are majority of the gun owners, but you will never take away our second amedment!!

[HangOnKids]

73. Ignorancen? Amedment? Deterant?

Those are not words. I am confused.

[Democracyinkind]

86. Telling a rape victim that he is ignorant

Because a gun would not have helped me - classy dude that one is.


I thought this thread was asking rape victims? I was asked and answered... He didn't seem to like it...

[Democracyinkind]

84. Ignorance indeed. Enjoy life in your little bubble.

[darkangel218]

88. In my own lil SAFE bubble!

I will, thank you very much.

[Democracyinkind]

91. Something about truer words never been spoken.

[wryter2000]

70. You don't have to convince me

I've been raped, and I'd rather not be killed with my own gun or kill someone else. Have you been raped? If not, please don't speak for those of us who have.

[2ndAmForComputers]

76. Anybody can say anything on the Internet.

But back to the point. What about rape victims who choose NOT to acquire a gun? Are they committing some terrible mistake?

[spin]

82. Enough people own firearms in this nation that the Constitution will not be changed. ...

As long as we live in a representative democracy the 2nd amendment is safe.

[thucythucy]

83. I'm a rape survivor

and I used to volunteer at a rape crisis center.

I have never in my life, either before or after being raped, wanted to own a gun.

For what it's worth.

[GreenStormCloud]

85. Over fifty years ago my wife used a gun to prevent her own rape.

She was young, alone at her mother's home in the country. A man entered, announce that he was going to f**k her. Fortunately, her mother's double barreled 12 gauge shotgun was close by and she was able to grab it first. He changed his mind and decided to take up running for his hobby.

A few years ago, she twice used her concealed handgun to prevent herself from being mugged. I have posted the details several times of those two incidents.

She is completely convinced that women should have guns handy. I completely agree.

[Walk away]

87. That's nice. Let's use rape survivors to muddy the waters about realistic gun control laws.

This is what is happening with the republican party as well. They are "shooting themselves in their foot" with their desperate need to hold on to their dangerous and unproductive guns and ideologies by throwing just about everyone under their creepy bus including raped women and slaughtered children.

Disgusting!

[friendly_iconoclast]

92. Do you have any evidence that the OP is being 'used'?

Or that she is not, in fact, a rape survivor? If so, please produce it.

If not, you are just another authoritarian intolent of differing opinion.

[bowens43]

93. nonsense.

[ZombieHorde]

102. "Try to convince a rape victim not to arm themselves"

No thank you. I would offer an ear, and I may strongly advise counseling in some cases, but I wouldn't try to convince her or him of anything else.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

103. no one is trying to take away Your guns. I read it on the internet. It must be true.