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LiberatedUSA

(1,666 posts)
Thu Jul 29, 2021, 07:11 AM Jul 2021

Where do you fall?

Does everyone here remember the Snow Shovel double murder, suicide this past winter?

Here is a link to an article on it:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/pennsylvania-neighbors-dead-fight-snow-shoveling-authorities/story%3fid=75666109

There is graphic video of it out there (not at the posted link) that has audio so you can see and hear how it got started and went. I won’t post a link to that, that is on you.

Ok, so this one, across the political forum world, caused a lot of shouting matches. What I think was really going on, was everyone essentially agreed the murderer was a piece of shit, but many on the gun safety side just either could not see or would not admit that the couple were not blameless.

So where do you all fall on this? I am in the middle.

The reason the man was seen pacing in his living room, after the two murders, was his adrenaline was wearing off and he was realizing his 2 choices, prison or suicide. It shows had he not had access to that gun, those people would have stood a better chance of not dying from a revenge killing spree. The gun gave him an easy outlet before allowing him some time to “get a grip” and call the police since they assaulted him.

Those two were flat dicks; serious bullies. There was a long history of problems with that couple and the entire block. They taunted the guy, threatened him, threw a shovel at him and were so intense on bullying him, they straight ignored his first few shots. Holy shit! When he pulled the gun, she kicked the taunting up a notch!

I am sorry, they weren’t blameless. When you screw with someone long enough, you’re gonna get bit. They didn’t deserve to die, their 16 year old autistic son didn’t deserve to lose his parents, but you go looking for trouble, eventually you’ll find it. It is why I try to avoid places I feel I would need a gun on me to feel safe.

6 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Where do you fall? (Original Post) LiberatedUSA Jul 2021 OP
I'm with you so far-- being an asshole doesn't deserve death, but if you get killed, it's on you... TreasonousBastard Jul 2021 #1
Typical American, believing all problems can only be solved with a gun. sinkingfeeling Jul 2021 #2
I won't say.... quickesst Jul 2021 #3
Exactly this. ManiacJoe Jul 2021 #6
Clearly a failure on the parts of all parties. discntnt_irny_srcsm Jul 2021 #4
100% the couple's fault IMO. Not justifiable homicide, but the fault of the Goys unquestioningly. Decoy of Fenris Jul 2021 #5

TreasonousBastard

(43,049 posts)
1. I'm with you so far-- being an asshole doesn't deserve death, but if you get killed, it's on you...
Thu Jul 29, 2021, 07:53 AM
Jul 2021

Don't poke the bear.

Or an asshole neighbor.

ManiacJoe

(10,136 posts)
6. Exactly this.
Thu Jul 29, 2021, 08:51 PM
Jul 2021

The Goys were looking for trouble.
When asked to stop, the Goys escalated.
When the shooter (illegally) threatened lethal force, the Goys called his bluff and lost.
While their deaths were not legally justified, had the Goys been good humans they would still be alive.


discntnt_irny_srcsm

(18,475 posts)
4. Clearly a failure on the parts of all parties.
Thu Jul 29, 2021, 01:34 PM
Jul 2021

They all foolishly ignored USMC Rule for Gun Fighting #26:
"Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation."
https://www.snipercountry.com/gunfight-rules/

PA's stance on fighting words is that they constitute assault but in no way justify a violent counter-assault.

The Goys were clearly playing with fire and started the altercation. They are however, IMO, 100% blameless in the shooting response they instigated. There are few cases where breaking the law (the Goys did break the law) could justify a violent response but this is not one.

Apparently these parties were engaged in a long running feud and this fight brought things to the boiling point.
I would also highlight that any prior events (possibly showing Spaide or the Goys) are not included in the article. The fact that the feud was known to neighbors also demonstrates that rule #22 ( "Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH." ) was ignored by both parties. Obviously they had mutual grievances which would have better off being mediated.

 

Decoy of Fenris

(1,954 posts)
5. 100% the couple's fault IMO. Not justifiable homicide, but the fault of the Goys unquestioningly.
Thu Jul 29, 2021, 01:52 PM
Jul 2021

Reasoning:

1.) Goys cross the street to throw snow onto Spaide's property, not an accidental act at all.
2.) When asked to stop (Within the purview of Spaide's rights re. his property) "The Goys yelled at [him]" rather than just not going out of their way to throw snow on Spaide's lawn
3.) Mr. Goy throws "A tool" at Spaide; Could be a snowbrush or a shovel or some combination thereof. Possibly something dangerous but realistically probably not.
4.) Mr. Goy then threatens Spaide and advances towards him with a raised fist, a pretty obvious indicator of impending violence.
5.) After Spaide retrieves a firearm, the Goys do not back down and continue to escalate the altercation (from the middle of the street, for whatever that's worth.)
6.) Finally, after all this, Spaide takes an aggressive action and opens fire.

If we're to believe witnesses and apparently the security footage, at no point prior to the shooting is Spaide an aggressor, only exercising his rights to ask these people not to shovel snow into his lawn. Yes, it devolved into a mutual screaming match, but this all could have been utterly avoided had the Goys not proven to be insufferable and petty children time and time again; Namecalling, screaming, throwing shit, threatening violence. I mean, I could be off the mark, but I'd rather not look up the video footage myself; I've been to the dark parts of the internet too many times and I'd rather be a bit uninformed than go seeking a low-quality snuff film.

It takes a special kind of stupid to think that these people were "Blameless". Did they deserve to get shot? Fuck no, but if Spaide didn't do it, there's no doubt in my mind someone else would. Shame about the Goys' kid... Gonna be messed up for a while. I hope he gets the help he'll invariably need.

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