Police say 11-year-old girl used her own shotgun to scare off robbers in Lapeer County

[Brickbat]

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/02/two_detroit_residents_charged.html#incart_related_stories

LAPEER COUNTY, MI -- An 11-year-old girl used the shotgun she normally keeps to go hunting with her father to scare off a robber in her home, police said.

The girl was alone at her North Branch Township home on Five Lakes Road about 3:45 p.m. on Jan. 30 when police said she surprised burglars who had broken into the house.

The girl hid in a bathroom closet, where she grabbed her shotgun that police said she stores in a gun safe.

When one of the burglars opened the closet door, police said the girl -- whose parents were due home from work a short time later -- pointed the shotgun at him and he ran off.

Go, girl!

[Lurks Often]

1. Having a shotgun pointed at you tends to damper one's enthusiasm

for one's criminal endeavors.


Of course someone will be along to say all guns are bad or that the parents are bad or that she should have used a can of beans to defend herself.

[LynnTTT]

2. Another outcome

It's certainly possible she scared them off. But another outcome could have been the burglars grab the gun and shot and killed her. Or a friend could have come over and the girls were looking at the gun and one of them was shot by mistake. That scenario happens many more times than the gun scaring off burglars. Not every burglar is a murderer.

[kcci]

3. Factually incorrect.

“Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year … in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008,”--CDC report commissioned by Pres. Obama.

From the same report: “Unintentional firearm-related deaths have steadily declined during the past century. The number of unintentional deaths due to firearm-related incidents accounted for less than 1 percent of all unintentional fatalities in 2010.”

[Brickbat]

4. "It's certainly possible she scared them off."

What, you think they got bored?

[DonP]

5. How about dealing with the reality of what happened

Gun control supporters seem to have a real, therapy worthy issue dealing with reality, when it comes to successful self defense occasions.

Sometimes they actually sound almost disappointed that someone actually used a gun for a legitimate self defense purpose.

How about speculating on what "might" have happened to the girl if she didn't scare them off?

Trust herself to the tender mercies of two criminals?

[NYC_SKP]

6. Projection.

Gun control activists can't help but project their personal POV and fears into situations. It's just a human thing we do.

If one was raised to fear guns, they can't imagine an 11 year old knowing how to safely use one.

I'm very proud of the little girl, and think it's a shame that she was alone and hope that doesn't happen often.

It's a rough world.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

9. Guns are evil

Next time she should just yell "BOOOO!" Or perhaps just go for the Bush's Beans; keep several of the small cans in a high cap messenger bag.




Oh, I forgot the

[gejohnston]

7. But another outcome could have been the burglars grab the gun and shot and killed her.

As far back as the 1970s the gun prohibition lobby claimed that was the most common outcomes but offered no evidence to back it up, mostly because there wasn't any. It was, however, a common trope in TV cop shows in that era. I'm guessing that is where the advocates got the idea. Kind of like the sudden push to require biometric "smart guns" after seeing James Bond's modified Walther P99. Unfortunately, that only exists in the movies too. If the technology existed, it would be on every Walther and other German made guns at the local gun store.
Not every burglar is a murderer, but every burglar and home invader is a potential murderer, rapist, or otherwise violent and should be assumed to be as such.

Or a friend could have come over and the girls were looking at the gun and one of them was shot by mistake.

That is what makes the national media whenever it happens. That in itself shows that it is very rare. dog bites man isn't news, but man bites dog is.

[ileus]

8. Not every burglar...not a chance most want to take.

[jimmy the one]

10. thumping heart

... another outcome could have been the burglars grab the gun and shot and killed her. Or a friend could have come over and the girls were looking at the gun and one of them was shot by mistake. That scenario happens many more times than the gun scaring off burglars. Not every burglar is a murderer

That's certainly more 'factually correct', Lynn, than what another GN thought. I think most people would say she's lucky to be alive (without much reason to, tho).
I don't think the shotgun even played a part. I think the burglar just saw an unexpected person in there, panicked, & left as soon as possible to get away. Had she been unarmed & screaming woulda likely had the same effect. There's a big difference between assaulting or hurting a young girl and burglary, like maybe 15 years more prison. There's a line in the sand where most all burglars won't go, even if it means they get caught.

When one of the burglars opened the closet door, police said the {11yo} girl -- whose parents were due home from work a short time later -- pointed the shotgun at him and he ran off.

I think she done did the right thing tho, hid in the closet with the SG. Bet her heart was thumping, could she have shot the gun? without missing?
I suppose this will go down as a dgu (defensive gun use), when it is more like surprised burglar running off.

burglar: charged with first-degree home invasion, second-degree home invasion, burglary tool possession, receiving and concealing stolen property and felon in possession of a firearm and firearm used in commission of a felony

[blueridge3210]

11. I think it was aliens....

as long as we're engaging in baseless speculation regarding the motives of the felons and their intentions upon making contact with the legal occupant(s) of the residence.

"I suppose this will go down as a dgu (defensive gun use), when it is more like surprised burglar running off. "

Well, yes, this would count as a successful defensive gun use (dgu) even though no shot was fired. Kellerman would not have counted this as one, which is one reason his study was so seriously flawed.

[kcci]

12. Oh sure. Home invaders are notoriously afraid of 11 year old girls.

Great argument.
Really.

[Straw Man]

14. Whaddya think?

I don't think the shotgun even played a part.

You don't think? What you "think" means nothing. It's just idle speculation.

Had she been unarmed & screaming woulda likely had the same effect.

Yes, burglars are notoriously scared of screaming 11-year-old girls. Forgot the guns, ladies: sign up for a class in tactical screaming.

There's a line in the sand where most all burglars won't go, even if it means they get caught.

Really? Have you polled burglars on this? Ones that choose to go armed?

I think she done did the right thing tho, hid in the closet with the SG. Bet her heart was thumping, could she have shot the gun? without missing?

Let's see. Hiding in closet. Pointing shotgun at door. Burglar opens door. Could she have shot without missing? Point-blank range with a shotgun at a person framed in a doorway? I don't know, Jimmy. What do you think?

I suppose this will go down as a dgu (defensive gun use), when it is more like surprised burglar running off.

Yes, I suppose it will go down as a DGU. Because the burglar was surprised by ... wait for it ... a shotgun. Surprise!

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. I see our local gun control advocates are operating at their usual level of competence...

[jimmy the one]

19. Annie Oakley, straw girl

Last edited Fri Feb 6, 2015, 01:05 PM - Edit history (1)

blueridge: as long as we're engaging in baseless speculation regarding the motives of the felons..
kcci Oh sure. Home invaders are notoriously afraid of 11 year old girls.
straw man: Really? Have you polled burglars on this? Ones that choose to go armed? .. burglars are notoriously scared of screaming 11-year-old girls.

I don't believe it, you people are so unaware of burglary strategy? that you take the above undereducated positions? that I posted 'baseless speculation'? or that burglars generally aren't scared off by the presence of unarmed residents? that they'd rather work alone & not be seen?
Duh, burglary is a property crime, not a violent crime on a person like robbery; Most always (edit) a burglar does not want to harm if he inadvertently encounters anyone. It's pretty evident that burglar was unaware of presence of 11yo girl & ran off after seeing her.

here, blueridge, shove this 'baseless speculation' down your throat: .. burglar will park his car around the block and walk over. He'll go right up and ring the front doorbell. If someone comes to the door, he'll pretend to be selling something or that he's looking for a different house. If there's no answer, he'll typically head around to the back of the house..
While burglars would prefer to work in darkness, they do not want to confront anyone , and generally choose to operate during the day when the house is more likely to be unoccupied. They don't much care if your alarm goes off. They know that most neighbors won't pay attention and the police won't arrive for quite a while. The burglar is usually in and out within eight minutes or less. He'll go straight for the master bedroom, looking for jewelry, money, and drugs. If he finds a gun or laptop computer or something else that's relatively small and of high value, he'll grab that. He may take a quick sweep through other areas of the house, especially the living room, dining room, and den. He will never go down in the basement, up in the attic, or into any confined area for fear of being trapped there should the homeowner or police arrive. http://www.urbachletter.com/Archive/Safety_1003_BurglaryPrevention.htm
..home burglar. Less than 15% are ever arrested during their entire criminal careers. Six out of seven professional home burglars are still on the job year after year.

I wrote: .. Bet her heart was thumping, could she have shot the gun? without missing?
straw man, baselessly speculating: Let's see. Hiding in closet. Pointing shotgun at door. Burglar opens door. Could she have shot without missing? Point-blank range with a shotgun at a person framed in a doorway? I don't know, Jimmy. What do you think?

Whoosh, evidently, over your head; she's an 11 yr old girl never shot anyone before in her life, scared most likely, heart likely pounding (as American snipers say), & I ask whether an 11 yo could have shot the surprised burglar, & straw man thinks she's Annie Oakley.
Why then, didn't she?

[blueridge3210]

20. "here, blueridge, shove this 'baseless speculation' down your throat:"

Why so angry , Jimmy? Why didn't you respond to my post instead of hiding it in your response to another post?

Why don't you go soak your head and cool off a bit?

[friendly_iconoclast]

22. Like I said, "...usual level of competence"

[blueridge3210]

23. Spot on.

[Straw Man]

21. This burglar had a gun, Jimmy.

Your non-violent burglar tales notwithstanding, this one chose to arm himself. Would an armed burglar have run from a screaming 11-year-old girl? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

Whoosh, evidently, over your head; she's an 11 yr old girl never shot anyone before in her life, scared most likely, heart likely pounding (as American snipers say), & I ask whether an 11 yo could have shot the surprised burglar, & straw man thinks she's Annie Oakley.

There there's a great big honking straw man (or woman) ... Annie Oakley? It wouldn't take Annie Oakley to hit a human framed in a doorway at point-blank range. Welcome to the real world. Would she have shot? Maybe, maybe not. If she had shot, could she have done so "without missing" (your phrase)? Absolutely. It would be very hard to miss in that scenario.

Why then, didn't she?

She didn't have to. He ran. Remember? Score one for defensive gun use without a shot being fired: best of all possible outcomes.

[jimmy the one]

24. you don't need no gun to get a dgu

Would an armed burglar have run from a screaming 11-year-old girl? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

.. you say you wouldn't bet your life on it that he wouldn't run from an 11yo? wheee, what kind of lame remark is that? Neither would I bet my life on it, duh.
But odds are very high that a burglar would indeed run if he found out he was discovered, since burglars just wanna burgle.
.. and, he 'ostensibly' did run from the armed girl once he saw her. But evidently coming across the girl allowed him to be charged with home invasion, when his original intent was ostensibly just burglary. A competent lawyer should diminish the former.

straw man Would she have shot? Maybe, maybe not. If she had shot, could she have done so "without missing" (your phrase)? Absolutely. It would be very hard to miss in that scenario.

BS, odds maybe 50/50 her shot would've hit, for myriad reasons: trigger pull leans her off center, burglar backing off or moving, no shell in chamber just loaded (if pump), safety left on, she shifts position to better aim at burglar.

strawman: Score one for defensive gun use without a shot being fired: best of all possible outcomes.

I think score one for 'imaginary defensive gun use'.
Reminds me of a friend of mine who doesn't even own a gun, but said to a guy who was scowling at him 'go away or I'll get my gun', & scowler run off. He called it in to the fbi. See? you don't need no gun to get a dgu.

[Straw Man]

25. Classic Jimmy.

Would an armed burglar have run from a screaming 11-year-old girl? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet my life on it.

.. you say you wouldn't bet your life on it that he wouldn't run from an 11yo? wheee, what kind of lame remark is that? Neither would I bet my life on it, duh.

No, Jimmy, you've got it exactly backwards: I wouldn't bet my life that he would run from an unarmed 11-year-old. Big difference. If I were the 11-year-old in question, I would rather be armed with the shotgun than with nothing but a high-pitched scream when facing an armed burglar. Betting her life is exactly what she (and you) would be doing by going into that situation unarmed.

Lame remark? With characteristic rudeness, you're blaming your comprehension failures on me. Not very nice, Jimbo.

BS, odds maybe 50/50 her shot would've hit, for myriad reasons: trigger pull leans her off center, burglar backing off or moving, no shell in chamber just loaded (if pump), safety left on, she shifts position to better aim at burglar.

Ladies and gentlemen, Jimmy speaks. He thinks that a girl who, despite her age, is trained and experienced with a shotgun, would have trouble hitting an adult human at point blank range, with the element of surprise in her favor, and with her own shotgun.

This beggars belief, Jimmy. Even "off center," she couldn't miss. The burglar's body would be filling practically her entire field of vision. He's in the doorway of the closet she's hiding in -- remember? Backs off or moves? How far could he get in the split second it would take to pull the trigger? (BTW, he did "back off" -- he ran, which is why she didn't shoot.) No shell in chamber? It's her own gun, and she knows how to operate it. Shift position? Why? She's ready. She is aiming.

FFS, Jimmy -- maybe she'd miss because she'd stop to answer a text on her phone just at the moment the bad guy opens the door. Maybe a freakin' comet would crash through the roof of the house and bonk her on the head. Yes, there are "myriad reasons" she might miss ...

[NaturalHigh]

17. "I don't think the shotgun even played a part."

Cool story bro.

[NaturalHigh]

18. Or another outcome could have been that the burglars reached for the gun...

and the girl shot them.

[machI]

13. Vice President Biden advocates the use of shotguns

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/joe-biden-double-barrel-shotgun-comments-draw-buzz-18544964

If you want to protect yourself get a double barrel shotgun. Have the shelves at twelve gauge shotgun. The vice president said that is exactly what he told his wife to do. Said Jill if there's ever a problem just walk out on the balcony here walk out. Put that double barreled shotgun and fired two blasts.

[NaturalHigh]

16. That's why we keep a shotgun for home defense.

The sight of the weapon and the sound of the pump will scare off 99% of the criminals. The other 1%...

[ladjf]

26. Personally, I'm a gun control advocate.

I wouldn't have given my child a personal shotgun. However, her father chose to do so.

She was familiar with her weapon, went to the closet where she knew that the gun was locked in the safe. Her plan was to hide in the closet until the burglar left. However, in the event that the burglar confronted her by opening the closet door, she obviously realized that she would have the "drop" on him.

I don't believe that the burglar could have grabbed the gun before she could pull the trigger.
Her plan was a good one. Fortunately, the burglar fled when seeing his situation. She could have taken him down as he fled but showed smart and compassionate restraint.

If this family situation, the father and child were capable of using the gun as needed. It certainly worked for them. Congratulations.

But, despite my admiration of the young girls performance, I still believe that for most of us, it's probably safer to not give guns to children to use at their discretion.

[louis-t]

27. Lucky she was able to get into the closet where the gun was.

And why is the gun safe kept in the bathroom closet?