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Tue Jun 24, 2014, 10:54 AM

 

One map that puts America's gun violence epidemic in perspective

When it comes to gun ownership, the US blows the rest of the world out of the water. And the research on guns suggests that's probably contributing to our gun murder problem one that the 74 school shootings that have happened since Sandy Hook demonstrate isn't yet under control.

Here's a map of firearm ownership around the world, using 2012 data compiled by The Guardian. The United States has nearly twice as many guns per 100 people as the next closest, Yemen 88.8 guns per 100 as opposed to 54.8 in Yemen. Here's how that looks mapped:

[center][/center]

How does this relate to homicide rates? Not simply. For instance, the United States has over 12 times as many guns per person as Honduras, but the 2012 US gun homicide rate per 100,000 people (2.97) is 1/22 of Honduras' (68.43). That's because, while guns make murder easier, wealthy industrialized countries generally have significantly lower rates of violent crime than comparatively impoverished ones.

But when you compare the United States to nations like Britain and Japan, it becomes clear that firearm ownership contributes to America's murder problem. The American firearm homicide rate is about 20 times the average among Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development countries (excluding Mexico).

http://www.vox.com/2014/6/11/5797892/us-world-firearm-ownership-map

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Reply One map that puts America's gun violence epidemic in perspective (Original post)
SecularMotion Jun 2014 OP
NYC_SKP Jun 2014 #1
thucythucy Jun 2014 #2
gejohnston Jun 2014 #5
thucythucy Jun 2014 #14
gejohnston Jun 2014 #18
friendly_iconoclast Jun 2014 #7
beevul Jun 2014 #12
thucythucy Jun 2014 #15
friendly_iconoclast Jun 2014 #21
NYC_SKP Jun 2014 #17
Fred Sanders Jun 2014 #3
sarisataka Jun 2014 #4
friendly_iconoclast Jun 2014 #8
hack89 Jun 2014 #6
discntnt_irny_srcsm Jun 2014 #9
Hangingon Jun 2014 #10
thucythucy Jun 2014 #16
hack89 Jun 2014 #19
friendly_iconoclast Jun 2014 #22
Logical Jun 2014 #23
hack89 Jun 2014 #24
Logical Jun 2014 #25
hack89 Jun 2014 #26
gejohnston Jun 2014 #27
Logical Jun 2014 #28
gejohnston Jun 2014 #29
Logical Jun 2014 #30
gejohnston Jun 2014 #31
Logical Jun 2014 #32
gejohnston Jun 2014 #33
Starboard Tack Jun 2014 #36
gejohnston Jun 2014 #37
Starboard Tack Jun 2014 #41
gejohnston Jun 2014 #42
Starboard Tack Jun 2014 #55
gejohnston Jun 2014 #57
Starboard Tack Jun 2014 #58
Jenoch Jun 2014 #59
Starboard Tack Jun 2014 #61
Jenoch Jun 2014 #63
Starboard Tack Jun 2014 #65
Jenoch Jun 2014 #67
Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #68
Jenoch Jul 2014 #69
Starboard Tack Jul 2014 #70
gejohnston Jun 2014 #60
Starboard Tack Jun 2014 #62
Straw Man Jun 2014 #54
Starboard Tack Jun 2014 #56
Straw Man Jun 2014 #66
pablo_marmol Jun 2014 #35
Logical Jun 2014 #38
pablo_marmol Jun 2014 #39
Logical Jun 2014 #40
pablo_marmol Jun 2014 #43
Logical Jun 2014 #44
pablo_marmol Jun 2014 #45
Logical Jun 2014 #46
pablo_marmol Jun 2014 #47
Logical Jun 2014 #48
pablo_marmol Jun 2014 #49
Logical Jun 2014 #50
pablo_marmol Jun 2014 #51
Logical Jun 2014 #52
pablo_marmol Jun 2014 #64
krispos42 Jun 2014 #11
NYC_SKP Jun 2014 #13
krispos42 Jun 2014 #34
ileus Jun 2014 #20
Duckhunter935 Jun 2014 #53

Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 11:08 AM

1. Yawn.

 

Big fucking deal...

Look at Canada and Norway, they have a lot of guns too.

I think it proves that social ills, not guns, are at the root of violence.

Thanks for playing just the same.

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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #1)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 11:22 AM

2. So you're saying Canada, for instance,

has no "social ills?"

Big news to all the Canadians I know.

And "lots of guns" is fairly amorphous. According to the map, the US clearly has significantly more guns per capita than either Canada or Norway.

The "thanks for playing" repost is getting kind of old. Seems to me presenting discussions of gun violence as some sort of game is pretty crude and unfeeling, considering the sorts of horror we see in the headlines every day. Certainly, it does nothing to refute the stereotype of pro-gunners as borderline sociopaths, as in "Your dead children don't trump my second amendment rights."

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #2)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 11:55 AM

5. has nothing to do with number of guns per capita

the more important number is households with at least one private gun. I doubt the accuracy of the number. That puts US, Norway, Canada, and Sweden within a couple of percentage points of each other. Finland is closer to 50 percent.
If you compare the gun ownership rates, and the most violent countries, there is an inverse relationship. The most peaceful countries have higher gun ownership rates.
There are more guns, possibly more gun owners, yet violence is dropping. We have all of these guns, yet most of them are in the safest parts of the country. Besides, in terms of world wide murder rates, ours is quite low.

"Your dead children don't trump my second amendment rights."
Isn't that the attitude of the average bong owner? "I don't care how many innocent kids are killed in drive bys, or how many campers and hikers are murdered or caught in booby traps as long as I get my toke."

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #5)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 06:29 PM

14. "Isn't that the attitude of your average bong owner?"

I wouldn't know. Are pot smokers insisting on "open carry"--i.e. public consumption with the public forced to watch--in churches, hospitals, schools, Target stores. etc.? That's news to me.

It's a rather bizarre analogy, though, in that any lethality connected to marijuana (drive by SHOOTINGS, etc.) has to do with the substance being illegal, and thus inflated in value and open to exploitation by the underworld. As opposed to guns, which in and of themselves directly cause tens of thousands of deaths a year (including drug and gang related deaths). Along those lines, if you want a strained (or not so strained) analogy, every American who relies on cheap petroleum for income or entertainment is saying, "Your dead environment doesn't trump my riding mower/jet-ski/4 x 4." It seems none of us are guiltless.

As for comparing countries, didn't you start out by blaming the high incidence of gun deaths in the US, as opposed to Canada, on our "social problems?" So how it is this caveat doesn't work for countries with incredibly high rates of grinding poverty, dysfunctional law enforcement, corrupt criminal justice systems, etc.? It seems like you're saying, if a country is developed, has stricter gun controls, and a lower gun death and injury rate, it's not the gun controls at work, but the "lack" of "social problems." But if a country that has less guns, but enormous social problems, has a high incidence of violence, the fault isn't those self-same "social problems"--it's the lack of guns. Funny how that works.

And is the violent crime rate dropping in other developed countries as well, countries that don't fetishize firearms? I honestly don't know, but it would be worth checking. What's the violent crime rate doing in Japan--rising, or falling? How about France, Holland, Australia?

The point seems to be that the US has a far higher rate of gun deaths than any other developed nation in the world. The causes are no doubt varied and complex, but the fact that our society is awash in guns, so much so that most anyone can get one or more, legally or not, must also be a factor here.

But I know you don't believe that. Ah well, someday the tide will turn. Just as young people seem less bigoted about gay rights and marriage equality, from what I've seen they're also less besotted with firearms. Time will tell.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #14)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 07:02 PM

18. just many things

I wouldn't know. Are pot smokers insisting on "open carry"--i.e. public consumption with the public forced to watch--in churches, hospitals, schools, Target stores. etc.? That's news to me.
Actually, I'm saying it should be up to the church, hospital, and Target store, not the State. When it comes to schools, it depends on who owns the schools. I actually don't have an opinion either way.

It's a rather bizarre analogy, though, in that any lethality connected to marijuana (drive by SHOOTINGS, etc.) has to do with the substance being illegal, and thus inflated in value and open to exploitation by the underworld. As opposed to guns, which in and of themselves directly cause tens of thousands of deaths a year (including drug and gang related deaths). Along those lines, if you want a strained (or not so strained) analogy, every American who relies on cheap petroleum for income or entertainment is saying, "Your dead environment doesn't trump my riding mower/jet-ski/4 x 4." It seems none of us are guiltless.
Most of which happen where legal gun ownership is low to non existent, like Oakland and Chicago. I can picture some, like the fans of the PATRIOT Act that "your BoR doesn't trump my right to feel safe." Look at Japan, where there is no right to council while questioning, often brutal, no right to a fair trial, force confessions, including torture, are admissible in court. No exclusionary rule, so there is no consequence of not getting a warrant.

As for comparing countries, didn't you start out by blaming the high incidence of gun deaths in the US, as opposed to Canada, on our "social problems?" So how it is this caveat doesn't work for countries with incredibly high rates of grinding poverty, dysfunctional law enforcement, corrupt criminal justice systems, etc.? It seems like you're saying, if a country is developed, has stricter gun controls, and a lower gun death and injury rate, it's not the gun controls at work, but the "lack" of "social problems." But if a country that has less guns, but enormous social problems, has a high incidence of violence, the fault isn't those self-same "social problems"--it's the lack of guns. Funny how that works
say what? 2/3 of our gun deaths are suicides, so that's kind of obvious. I said our higher murder rates, regardless of means, was because of various social problems. Actually it does, if you look at places like Mexico, Jamaica, Brazil, Russia, Bermuda, anywhere in Central America, they all have gun laws closer to Chicago and DC than Canada or Wyoming, yet they have higher murder rates than we do. The fact that less than 20 percent of Mexico's murders are gun related is of no consequence.

And is the violent crime rate dropping in other developed countries as well, countries that don't fetishize firearms? I honestly don't know, but it would be worth checking. What's the violent crime rate doing in Japan--rising, or falling? How about France, Holland, Australia?
"Developed" is actually a meaningless term. It is falling here, and has been for 20 years. It has been steady there. In terms of wealth inequality and the GINI index, we are closer to Mexico's "development" than any of those places. Australia gun laws always varied by each state and AFAIK, never had laws similar to most of the US. Europe actually had same or lower murder rates before they passed any gun control at all. Japan never had liberal gun laws.

The point seems to be that the US has a far higher rate of gun deaths than any other developed nation in the world. The causes are no doubt varied and complex, but the fact that our society is awash in guns, so much so that most anyone can get one or more, legally or not, must also be a factor here.
Because most of them are suicides. Just like Switzerland has "more gun deaths" than anywhere else in Europe, but they have a high suicide rate. If you remove the guns, they will simply become rope deaths. That isn't progress.

But I know you don't believe that. Ah well, someday the tide will turn. Just as young people seem less bigoted about gay rights and marriage equality, from what I've seen they're also less besotted with firearms. Time will tell.
I don't know what gays and guns have to do with each other, but most kids I know lean libertarian or classical liberal. They support gay rights, but also like their guns too.

My point was that the average bong owner is responsible for more gun violence than 99.9999 percent of all gun owners. Same with beer drinkers in the 1920s.

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #2)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 02:41 PM

7. Treating non-gun murders as less important is callous and unfeeling

 

It adds to the stereotype of anti-gunners as being more interested in
methods of violence than the victims of violence

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #7)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 03:27 PM

12. Judging them by their actions ...

 

(Decided I didn't like that wording there)

Judging them by their actions, which lead to a logical conclusion, isn't adding to a stereotype.

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Response to friendly_iconoclast (Reply #7)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 06:32 PM

15. Straw man, much?

You think people who favor stricter gun regulations simply don't care about non-gun deaths? Really?

And you ascribe this to an alleged "unfeeling" nature? As opposed, say, to someone up-thread whose first response to an OP about gun deaths is to "yawn"?

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Response to thucythucy (Reply #15)

Wed Jun 25, 2014, 02:43 PM

21. I'm sure *some* do care- but most downplay non-gun deaths

 

There are some easy markers or 'tells' that show who the indifferent are:

Anyone that emphasizes methods of violence over rates of violence.

Anyone that counts suicide via gun as "gun violence"- I've yet to
see anyone refer non-sarcastically to other forms of suicide as "rope violence",
"pill violence", "pesticide violence", or "hibachi/carbon monoxide violence" (a method sometimes used in Japan and other places:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning#Suicide

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brad_Delp#Death



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Response to thucythucy (Reply #2)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 06:58 PM

17. Your points are well taken, however in this particular instance....

 

We have a post by a member and no discussion, at least none from their member account.

And the posting member is one of the two hosts of the "gun control reform activism group" that has a history of blocking anyone who isn't in lock-step with their point of view, so not much discussion going on over there.

The group, RKBA, is very permissive, it takes a LOT of poor behavior to be blocked.

So when one of the hosts of the other group posts here, it doesn't seem to be for discussion unless they actually engage in discussion, not by my way of thinking.

It seems to me more about playing games, thus the reference.

All of this matters not, our side is winning, I'm confident that the individual right to bear arms isn't going to go away.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 11:27 AM

3. Honduras has a murder rate 22 times that of America? I would seriously want to take my children

to another country to escape that, would you?

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 11:31 AM

4. So a map

That show gun ownership per capita with an explanation that immediately points out there is not a direct relationship between ownership and violence is putting the epidemic in perspective.

I suppose if you call a trend that is flat or falling an epidemic it isn't much stretching to say there is a relationship that you just denied because it is true in some cases- especially if you exclude Mexico.

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Response to sarisataka (Reply #4)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 02:44 PM

8. Meh, just another repeat of the "guns kill you deader" meme...

 

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 12:50 PM

6. One third of all murders take place in Central and South America

yet they have significantly lower gun ownership rates than America. How is that possible?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 02:54 PM

9. Because...

...all the bad guys from Central and South America come to US gun shows to arm up.
The ones that don't, buy from folks in the US via craigslist.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 02:57 PM

10. Perhaps only the bad guys have guns?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #6)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 06:45 PM

16. How is that possible? You really have to ask?

How about, for starters, grinding poverty, dysfunctional or non-existent law enforcement, lack of social safety nets, all directly or indirectly the consequences of several centuries of imperialist intervention and exploitation by outsiders, in league with the local oligarchies.

There's a whole literature on how Central and South America have been fucked by imperialists. Check out "Bitter Fruit" for starters, about the US overthrow of the democratically elected government of Guatemala in the 1950s, and the decades of civil war that followed.

Would the easy availability of hundreds of millions of firearms make any of this better? Or would the death toll of the violence there be even higher? My suspicion is that adding unlimited or nearly unlimited firearms would only make matters worse.


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Response to thucythucy (Reply #16)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 07:13 PM

19. In America we have cut our murder and manslaughter rate in half over the past 20 years

How is that possible if more guns = more deaths?

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Response to hack89 (Reply #19)

Wed Jun 25, 2014, 02:55 PM

22. We are not supposed to notice that poverty and corruption correlate...

 

...far more closely with violent crime and murder rates than "percentage of population
that own guns" does- and if we should be so uncouth as to point this inconvenient
truth out, it will be waved away as an 'NRA talking point'...

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Response to hack89 (Reply #6)

Thu Jun 26, 2014, 09:07 PM

23. We have a horrible murder rate compared to countries like us. No one can deny it. n-t

 

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Response to Logical (Reply #23)

Thu Jun 26, 2014, 09:30 PM

24. Yet the point of the OP is that high gun ownership rates cause high murder rates

Can we agree that it is a very simplistic notion and is easily proven wrong.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #24)

Thu Jun 26, 2014, 09:36 PM

25. I am fine with guns. But I have no doubt that if there were no guns the USA murder rate would......

 

drop. Guns make it really easy to kill someone. Yourself included.

It would not drop to zero but it would drop.

About 70% of murders are caused by guns. Remove them and murder gets a lot harder.

But I agree, more guns does not mean more murders.

Only about 9,000 guns a year are used to murder someone. We have 300 Million. 400 million would not cause more.

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Response to Logical (Reply #25)

Thu Jun 26, 2014, 09:58 PM

26. Extreme gun violence in America is very geographically localized

For most Americans, where they live is just as safe as any European country - even though they are surrounded by guns. That tells me the root causes are very specific to certain demographics. Extreme poverty immediately comes to mind. Let's fix root causes.

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Response to Logical (Reply #25)

Thu Jun 26, 2014, 10:24 PM

27. caused by guns

it is more accurate to say with guns. The guns didn't cause the deaths of three Elliot Roger's victims any more than the machete caused the murders of the first three. In 2001, a guy about the same age, same issues killed four people with a car. I don't believe Christine was a Saab.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #27)

Thu Jun 26, 2014, 10:26 PM

28. Guns are designed to kill things. Stop the silly comparisons. I will take my chance.....

 

against a bat or knife anyday. So would you.

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Response to Logical (Reply #28)

Thu Jun 26, 2014, 10:34 PM

29. Not at all a silly comparison

just that I find inanimate objects having psychic powers or a soul as absurd as you apparently find sky gods. You rush a gun, but run from mele weapons and knives. Besides, Jamaica's and Mexico's strict gun laws hasn't stopped the shooting or stabbings.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #29)

Thu Jun 26, 2014, 10:36 PM

30. Guns make it easy to kill people. LOL, why do cops/military carry guns? Get it yet? n-t

 

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Response to Logical (Reply #30)

Thu Jun 26, 2014, 10:42 PM

31. it also equalizes

it gives grandma a fighting chance against thugs. The weapon doesn't make it easy to kill people, it is the mind set of the individual. Russia has more murders than the US, but almost none with guns. Guns are used in less than 20 percent of Mexico's murders, and 1/3 of Canadian murders.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #31)

Thu Jun 26, 2014, 10:44 PM

32. You really think if there were NO guns that they would all be replaced with other weapons? n-t

 

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Response to Logical (Reply #32)

Thu Jun 26, 2014, 10:53 PM

33. Do you have a valid argument

backed up with evidence that they wouldn't? How would you dis-invent guns?

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Response to Logical (Reply #28)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 04:06 AM

36. You are being too logical, Logical

Stating the obvious doesn't seem to get much traction around here.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #36)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 09:49 AM

37. logic implies the use of

empirical evidence, facts, and history. All of that is absent. Just because you like it, doesn't make it logical. All of the evidence shows otherwise. The world was a much more violent place before guns were invented.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #37)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 04:40 PM

41. All of what evidence?

"The world was a more violent place before guns were invented"
You're kidding right? Tell me you're kidding.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #41)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 05:02 PM

42. Europe was certainly more violent

I'm not saying guns had anything to do with it. I do think they deter the more predatory in our society, which has nothing to do with anyplace else. That is one reason, according to sociologists James Wright and Peter Rossi, we have fewer "hot burglaries" aka home invasions than other countries. According to the inmates they interviewed, they fear getting shot by the home owner than getting caught by the cops.

My claim is based on:
http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/23/us/historical-study-of-homicide-and-cities-surprises-the-experts.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#History

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #42)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 05:45 AM

55. And this had what exactly to do with firearms?

Why the homicide rate in Europe began to drop in the 16th and 17th centuries is a matter of debate. The most widely accepted explanation stems from the work of Norbert Elias, a sociologist who in the late 1930's introduced the idea of a "civilizing process," in which the nobility was transformed from knights into courtiers, bringing in a new set of manners, and the modern state spread its power over the populace.

Official justice administered by courts replaced private vengeance conducted by feuds, fights and duels. Challenging conventional academic wisdom, Mr. Elias suggested, too, that the power of the state extended to cities first, so urban homicide rates would be comparatively low.


The introduction and use of firearms was purely coincidental and the rate of violence went down regardless of firearm proliferation, due to a combination of "state power" and a "civilizing process". Imagine how the rate of violence will be reduced when the US eventually undergoes a "civilizing process".

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #55)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:52 AM

57. I didn't say it did

Simply refuting that disinventing guns, or having a legally disarmed public creates a utopia. It really is an argument against Anarcho-capitalism. The relevant years are 1900-1930, when European murder rates were very low. It was also an era where concealed carry may have been fairly common (given the number of small pistols produced and sold in Europe at the time), and the laws were not as stringent as some parts of the US (especially in the South. The White Citizens Councils and the KKK were more effective in getting gun laws passed, including limits on concealed carry. Oh, then there are gangsters like Tim Sullivan.) In fact, it was the Klan that got universal background checks passed in Michigan, Missouri and North Carolina, almost got registration passed in Mississippi in 1954. But I digress.
In Europe, it had more to do with the labor movement and the red scare.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate_by_decade#1920s

It also disproves the canard (usually made by stupid people on CNN) that Europe solved its violence problems by gun control.

The introduction and use of firearms was purely coincidental and the rate of violence went down regardless of firearm proliferation, due to a combination of "state power" and a "civilizing process". Imagine how the rate of violence will be reduced when the US eventually undergoes a "civilizing process".
Guns at the time were rare and very expensive. A matchlock pistol would cost about $20K. People still mostly stabbed each other. Our problem is organized crime and the drug war. Besides, I can't picture any European city government even coming close to the corruption of Chicago's.
Some argue were were more "civilized" back then. There was a time when people wore three piece suits to the ball game. Dillinger robbed banks in suit and tie. Today, people go to graduations and weddings in flip flops, ratty tee shirt, and underwear hanging out.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #57)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:28 AM

58. Your problems are many.

Gangs and drug wars don't help. Gun control does not diminish violence, it controls the instruments of violence. It makes it a lot more difficult to kill people. The aim of gun control is not to reduce violence, but the consequences of violence wrought by a society which embraces firearms as problem solving tools.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #58)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 10:38 AM

59. "Your problems are many."

 

Does this mean you are not a U.S. citizen?

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #59)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 12:05 PM

61. No Jenoch. It means your problems are many

It has nothing to do with citizenship, especially mine, which you appear to be overly concerned with.
I say "your problems" because I no longer live in the "land of the free, home of the brave" and have no desire to return there.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #61)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 12:26 PM

63. Thank you.

 

You have told me everything I need to know.

I have never put anyone on ignore, I am not going to do it now either. I will just consider the source when I see you being critical of the U.S. Constitution and other U.S. laws, which do not apply to you. Your opinion is of no value to anyone on these subjects.

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #63)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 04:45 PM

65. I'm sure the rest of the world shares your xenophobic view

You might want to unwrap yourself from that flag you wear so proudly and realize that the world is a small place and US residency is not a requirement for participation in social media, political blogs or boards like DU.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #65)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 09:16 PM

67. You really have no clue.

 

I never said nor implied anything about U.S. residency and participation in social media. Participate all you wish. I did not say nor imply that you could not participate.

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #67)

Tue Jul 1, 2014, 03:44 AM

68. Right, just that my opinion is worthless.

Otherwise, wtf do you care about where one has citizenship. Why is it relevant to anything?

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #68)

Tue Jul 1, 2014, 10:45 AM

69. If you have no stake in the game, why should it matter what you think about the game?

 

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Response to Jenoch (Reply #69)

Wed Jul 2, 2014, 03:14 AM

70. Do you think having family there gives me a "stake in the game"?

Do you think living in a world where the US peddles its wares, including weaponry, gives me a "stake in the game"?
You really need to climb out of your xenophobic box. You might gain some perspective on life.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #58)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 11:28 AM

60. One problem with several causes

It makes it a lot more difficult to kill people.
no it doesn't, it does make it harder for innocent people to defend themselves against violence.
The aim of gun control is not to reduce violence, but the consequences of violence wrought by a society which embraces firearms as problem solving tools.
Historically incorrect. As the Wiki page shows, it didn't matter even in Europe, which was as nonviolent as now. Reducing violence is theater. In the US, as I explained before, it has been historically been used by State sponsored terrorist organizations (specifically the KKK) to freely terrorize citizens. Today, it is used by big city mayors scapegoat to excuse their inability (or unwillingness) to do anything about their problems.
society which embraces firearms as problem solving tools.
What problems are you referring to? The only problems they are legally allowed to "solve" are the kind where it is the only tool for the job. Unless of course, you take the view that it is better to be a victim and hospitalized (or killed), which is the official view of DC's city government?
You are free to have uninformed and baseless opinions, just don't use them to make public policy.

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Response to gejohnston (Reply #60)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 12:07 PM

62. I give up GE

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #41)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 12:42 AM

54. Evidence.

Professor Stone has estimated that the homicide rate in medieval England was on average 10 times that of 20th century England. A study of the university town of Oxford in the 1340's showed an extraordinarily high annual rate of about 110 per 100,000 people. Studies of London in the first half of the 14th century determined a homicide rate of 36 to 52 per 100,000 people per year.

By contrast, the 1993 homicide rate in New York City was 25.9 per 100,000. The 1992 national homicide rate for the United States was 9.3 per 100,000.

--http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/23/us/historical-study-of-homicide-and-cities-surprises-the-experts.html

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Response to Straw Man (Reply #54)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 05:50 AM

56. Faulty causality.

Maybe it was the introduction of he potato into Europe that reduced the violence. Or maybe it was because we sent many of our more violent miscreants to the New World.

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Response to Starboard Tack (Reply #56)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 05:18 PM

66. I never mentioned causes.

You questioned the assertion that there was more violence before firearms were invented. I supported the assertion with evidence. Causality is an open question and another discussion.

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Response to Logical (Reply #25)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 06:12 PM

35. YOU "have no doubt" that the U.S. murder rate would drop?

But then again, you are "going from the gut" rather than empirical evidence.

Fortunately, criminologists don't have that luxury. Since they appreciate the law of unintended consequences a lot better than you do, they understand that gun bans (or severe restrictions) would affect good citizens a lot more than criminals. Which means that said bans/restrictions could result in HIGHER victimization rates, and higher murder rates.

Did you know that you are LESS likely to be injured by a robber with a gun than with any other weapon - including no weapon? That's because the lethality of the gun means that victims are more compliant, and thus less likely to be injured. Thieves are pragmatic. They just want to get your money and disappear. Of course if the robber does pull the trigger, you are more likely to be severely injured or killed......but the point is, that rarely happens.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #35)

Sat Jun 28, 2014, 05:58 PM

38. LOL, so under your logic we should give guns to robbers to reduce injury's? Classic! n-t

 

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Response to Logical (Reply #38)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 03:37 AM

39. There you go......with another childish strawman. It's your only ammo.

What I was very obviously pointing out is that the facts relating to gun violence are not the least bit as self-evident as individuals like you believe they are. The subject is nuanced -- and sometimes counter-intuitive.

You reading comprehension skills, and/or logic skills are clearly severely lacking -- making your moniker quite a good joke!

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #39)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 01:34 PM

40. No, based on what you said would that not prevent injury's??? You said it Einstein, not me.......

 

And your "nuanced" actually means "made up shit".

If there were no guns there would be less murder. There is no debate that is not true.

There is no way to reach that goal I agree. But for anyone to say murders would not go down with no guns means they are so biased that they are not to be taken seriously.

Why do people carry guns for defense if they are not more lethal?

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Response to Logical (Reply #40)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 08:26 PM

43. "Why do people carry guns for defense if they are not more lethal?"

Way to miss the point, "Einstein"!

I never claimed that guns were not highly lethal. Reading comprehension FAIL!

What i said was that a gun's lethality means that the user rarely has to pull the trigger. This is true regardless of whether the gun is used offensively or defensively, with the obvious exception of criminal on criminal gun violence - which makes up 66% of the total.

And your "nuanced" actually means "made up shit".

Laughable, considering it's you who "goes from the gut" rather than empirical evidence. Try something brand new, "Logical". READ A BOOK rather than relying on ignorant/misinformed media bloviators.

But for anyone to say murders would not go down with no guns means they are so biased that they are not to be taken seriously.

So who ever said that? Point to when and where it was said, "Einstein". Why even bother bloviating on what "no guns" would mean since it's never going to happen? Bringing up these distractions only proves how little you really care about the victims of gun violence, because folks who care don't give a damn about anything but pragmatic questions.

Finally.....to address your first "point": It obviously makes no sense to give guns to criminals of any type because data demonstrates that killers escalate to murder after a long series of less serious crimes. It's only your ill logic that can come up with such infantile horsesh*t. Again, by virtue of the bankruptcy of your position you have to stuff words in the mouths of others.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #43)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 08:38 PM

44. You still have not explained why we don't arm robbers with guns to prevent injury's! Please....

 

explain why that is not a good idea based on your claim (with no links to proof I might add).

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Response to Logical (Reply #44)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 09:15 PM

45. Because I don't need to back up a theory I never put forward, Einstein!

If you can't figure that out, -- gotta say I'm done with you at this point. You insist of persisting in this infantile issue re. why it's not a good idea to arm criminals? Seriously?

(And I actually did respond in a manner to your childishness when I pointed out that criminal behavior has been demonstrated to escalate.)

(with no links to proof I might add).

See, here's the the thing about "proof" --- it's not all found on the internet. Some of it is found in BOOKS. Quite frankly, with an person willing to engage in honest debate I'd expend the effort to dig around for it. The lack of integrity that you've displayed informs me that I'd be wasting my time, as no amount of evidence is ever good enough for people like you. You've established your MO very clearly by now, "Logical". There's no reasoning with someone who hasn't arrived at their position through reason in the first place.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #45)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 09:31 PM

46. So you have no proof of this claim except something you read who knows where? LOL.....

 

I get it. You got nothing.

so that claim at this point is worthless. And you telling ME to research your claim is really classy.

OK, here is my claim, everyone who owns guns ends up killing someone. Really! It is true. Research it. I read it in a book! It is NOT my job to prove it. See how silly you sound now?

At least now you don't have to explain why we don't arm robbers with guns for the safety of the people they are robbing!

This has been maybe the funniest thread I have even been in.

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Response to Logical (Reply #46)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 10:15 PM

47. "I get it. You got nothing."

Actually, it took me about 3 minutes on a search to find the proof from the Bureau of Justice. Scroll down to about the 1/3 mark on the page linked, and you find this: (under assault)

"Overall, about 1 in 4 assault victims were injured during the incident. Victims of firearm violence were less likely
than other victims to be injured.
"

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/ascii/wuvc01.txt

So my memory may be off a bit -- given that I referred to robbery rather than assault -- but since robbery is by definition an assault this statement likely applies to robberies as well.

See how silly you sound now?

At least now you don't have to explain why we don't arm robbers with guns for the safety of the people they are robbing!

No one ever has to explain an absurd statement made by another person. Guess you'll just never get that advanced concept.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #47)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 10:16 PM

48. LOL, you said it was a book! So you didn't even look before? Just BSing me? n-t

 

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Response to Logical (Reply #48)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 10:20 PM

49. Unbelievable!

It was faster googling for it than digging through my copy of Kleck's "Targeting Guns." And once again your "logic" shines through. Somehow the fact that I found the proof on the internet means that it can't be found in a book as well!

Your desperation is showing!



Edited to add: Some of us are actually capable of remembering what we read......sometimes as long as years later!

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #49)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 10:37 PM

50. I understand your low post count. Asssume you were kicked off before. n-t

 

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Response to Logical (Reply #50)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 10:51 PM

51. Again -- your desperation is showing.

Needing to continually change the subject, and playing the "low post count" card! Clearly, you're out of ammo.

Done here.

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Response to pablo_marmol (Reply #51)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 11:03 PM

52. Ahhh......Ok Einstein! LOL! Sorry if feeling hurt! n-t

 

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Response to Logical (Reply #52)

Mon Jun 30, 2014, 03:45 PM

64. And sorry I destroyed all of your lame "arguments".

One sincere apology deserves another!

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 02:59 PM

11. Again...

...people don't die in snowmobile accidents in Florida. Not because Florida is full of very safe, careful snowmobilers, but because Florida doesn't have any snow.

Ergo, you have to be a special kind of stupid (or unlucky) to die in a snowmobile accident in Florida.


Of course, our TOTAL homicide rate is far less than 20x that of comparative countries... who also have better primary education, better mental health care, better Gini index numbers, and more social services than us.

We're far more towards Honduras than the UK and Japan, at least in terms of wealth inequality, social services, education, etc.

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 04:21 PM

13. Your subject line doesn't match the map.

 

Here are two maps that specifically indicate murder and violent death by country, the US doesn't seem to be of concern:

Murder:



Violent death:



Credit to http://www.worldmapper.org

Since 2/3 of our gun deaths are suicides, you'd think this map of suicides would look much different:

Suicides:



Go figure.





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Response to NYC_SKP (Reply #13)

Fri Jun 27, 2014, 06:55 AM

34. *snicker*

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Response to SecularMotion (Original post)

Tue Jun 24, 2014, 10:43 PM

20. I sure hope to add two firearms to my collection before the year is out.

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Response to ileus (Reply #20)

Sun Jun 29, 2014, 11:17 PM

53. just added one

 

built from scratch M16A1 clone. Of course it is just a semi-auto version. Correct lower receiver took a while to get.

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