Gun Control & RKBA
Related: About this forumIn Virginia governor’s race, gun control surfaces late as a key issue
Bloomberg is outspending the NRA 4 to 1 in their home state.
After months of inattention, Ken Cuccinelli II (R) and Terry McAuliffe (D) have drawn the polarizing issue of guns into the spotlight of the Virginia governors race.
For once, a Democrat is talking tough about gun control, as if daring the National Rifle Association to take him on.
It began with the Oct. 24 candidates debate at Virginia Tech, the site of the worst mass shooting by an individual in U.S. history. In response to a question, Cuccinelli boasted of his A rating from the NRA.
And then McAuliffe did something surprising: He said he didnt give a fig about the powerful lobbys rating. And, oh, by the way, he had earned an F.
Gun-control groups were equally wound up. Left dispirited by President Obamas lack of action on firearms, some took heart in hearing a Democrat talking tough about new gun-control measures.
Outsiders have also taken a stand. The Independence USA PAC, created by New York Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg (I), has spent nearly $2.3 million in Virginia this year, according to records with the Virginia Public Access Project, riling up gun-rights advocates who see him as a busybody.
The NRA, with headquarters in Fairfax County, has poured more than $500,000 into this years elections, all of it for Republicans.
I just dont think the NRA carries the power that they want everyone to believe, said Lori Haas, whose daughter also was injured in the Virginia Tech shooting. Theyre a paper tiger.
Democrats and gun-control advocates said a shift in demographics and the continuing series of mass shootings including at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., in December have reframed the debate since the last election cycle.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/virginia-politics/in-virginia-governors-race-gun-control-surfaces-late-as-a-key-issue/2013/11/01/0733d32c-4249-11e3-a624-41d661b0bb78_story_1.html
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Cuccinelli has basically handed the election to McAuliffe anyway due to his RW nuttiness, so it's not as if
Bloomberg's money has made all that much difference.
coldmountain
(802 posts)Last edited Sun Nov 3, 2013, 11:47 AM - Edit history (1)
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Are you laboring under the idea that Michael Bloomberg isn't an authoritarian?
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)outspent the NRA and allies 7-1 in Colorado in a strongly Democratic district and a purple district. The result was exactly what the incumbents own polls predicted.
coldmountain
(802 posts)The pro gun crowd is so degenerate that even Bloomberg looks good in comparison.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)it was about out of state billionaires and NYC employees writing and lobbying for laws in another state. Not only those two ignore and disrespect their constituents, and bragged about it on national TV, they put the interests of big money ahead of the people who put therm in office. That pisses people off. Polls are based on all registered voters. If there were a 100 percent turn out, the result would be the same. Speaking of degenerate, the prohibition crowd use dishonesty, emotional appeal, name calling, and incapable of making a logical argument. People like Sugarmann, Watts, and Bloomberg see mass shootings as a political opportunity not as a tragedy. Bombings, stabbings, etc, are simply not on their radar.
coldmountain
(802 posts)Hilarious when gun pushers say their opponents appeal to emotions and dishonesty
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)but they are also a membership organization that can mobilize the grass roots. The Kochs may also be members of ALEC, which is really a lobbyist co-op, but they don't give a shit about guns. Historically, the corporate elites, including the media, have been for stricter gun laws until it occurred to publicly claim otherwise would endure their agenda to many in the 99 percent. They do the same with the Evangelicals, but as Tucker Carlson once admitted conservatives and the Republican party will pander to them, but really can't stand them.
Yeah Ted Nugent is an ass clown, but compare this with Piers Morgan's inability to do anything beyond name calling. He also isn't speaking for any organization, he is speaking as a burnt out rock star.
Tell you what, show me one gun control argument that is honest and accurate.
coldmountain
(802 posts)It's much harder to murder people without guns, you have to get close and personal. That's why I think there's a big yellow streak down the back of many of the gun pushers.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)I guess I should have mentioned free of logical fallacies.
New Zealand's gun ownership rate is about the same as France and Florida (25 percent of households). Japan's culture has more to do with it than anything else, Ireland does not have the gang/drug problem we do. Come to think of it, neither do most other countries. The countries you listed also doesn't have the inequality of wealth that we do. That 's for starters. Japan has per capita more murder/suicides than we do. They are simply listed as suicides. BTW, Russia also has very few guns and a murder rate that makes us look like Japan. Brazil also has very strict laws, their murder rate also makes us look like Japan. Then there is Norway, which is second or third highest gun ownership rate, with a murder rate lower than Japan's.
Notice I said murder, not gun murder.
coldmountain
(802 posts)Excuses, excuse from a gun pusher, Massachusetts is other Americans living in a diverse industrialized state with a lot of population density and they have less murders as well.
I know it's impossible to convert a "gun enthusiast" so I'll quit trying, they only change when the bullet strikes close to home. I've seen that a bunch.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)Faux liberals, maybe. Bloomberg isn't a liberal. OK so we agree with him on gay marriage, but he is conservative on everything else. I don't know about Sugarmann. Watts' last job was PR flack for Monsanto, and what is now the Brady Center was partly founded by Joe McNamera, who was once a San Jose police chief and now works at the Hoover Institute. I don't picture many liberals there. Bill Buckley was a gun control advocate.
I am calling the former Australian PM John Howard a liar, but he is a right wing neocon.
Are you saying I'm calling Piers Morgan a liar? I don't know about good liberal, but he is certainly a pompous boor who probably actually believes his bullshit.
Mass isn't one of the drug distribution hub like Chicago, NOLA, or Dallas either. USVI has even stricter laws that Hawaii and Guam, or Mass for that matter, yet is 30 times Massachusetts.
Excuses? Not from me. I try to make only sound rational arguments. If you call that an excuse fine.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)That should tell you all you need to know about his character
Bloomberg (amongst others, but him especially) knows how to play the
faux liberal card, as Walter Benn Michaels describes in
"Let Them Eat Diversity: multiculturalism as an artifact of neoliberalism"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022969789
http://jacobinmag.com/2011/01/let-them-eat-diversity/
To put it bluntly, anyone that takes support for gun control as a marker for progessivism
has been conned
Mojorabbit
(16,020 posts)"We recognize that the individual right to bear arms is an important part of the American tradition, and we will preserve Americans' Second Amendment right to own and use firearms." It does call for an increase in gun regulations. There are plenty of liberal gun owners and they are certainly "good" liberals.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)"It's OK to run Republican memes against Hillary but not against Indian princess Warren?"
I hope it's *really* cold on top of that mountain:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=301963
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Think about that...
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Both of them have somehow gotten the notion that the ability to garner attention is a sign of wisdom.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,482 posts)VADem1980
(53 posts)Honestly, if it puts a strong anti-2A Democrat in the governor's seat, Mr. Bloomberg, or anyone else can spend all the money they want down here in VA!
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)to be enacted in Virginia?
VADem1980
(53 posts)Two very different things.
What I EXPECT from our leaders is similar to New York- a complete ban on assault weapons (anything semi-automatic), a ban on hand guns, a ban on open carry, may issue concealed carry, (expensive) permits required for each and everyone gun in the home.
What I WANT is a complete ban followed by a Federal repeal of the Second Amendment. Possession only by the military. All law enforcement (and government employed game population control experts) would keep firearms locked in a federally monitored armoury.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)And will never, ever be enacted in this country as currently constituted...
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)quite frequently, gun control advocates mock pro RKBA propenents when they say gun grabbers want to confiscate their guns. At least you have stated that you want all privately owned guns to be confiscated by the government. What sort of compensation would you propose under your scenario?
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)Do you have the slightest shred of a clue about what laws New York currently has? I'll give you hint: You're about 60% wrong.
As for the rest of your wish list, all I can say is that the Tea Party will be eternally grateful to you for driving the vast center of the American political spectrum straight into their (formerly) paranoid embrace.
VADem1980
(53 posts)Let's take a look at the Wikipedia entry-
assault weapons (anything semiautomatic)- On January 15, 2013, the state assault weapons ban was made more restrictive by the NY SAFE Act. Specified rifle magazines are banned: a) manufactured after 1994; and b) the magazine holds in excess of 10 rounds (handguns included). A 10 round magazine is permissible, but may only contain 7 rounds. Any semi-automatic rifle or shotgun with just one of these features are banned: 1) pistol grip; 2) bayonet lug; 3) telescoping or folding stock; 4) flash suppressor; 5) threaded barrel; or 6) grenade launcher.[4][5][6] The SAFE Act expanded the ban to add the following features: 7) muzzle brake; 8) muzzle compensator; 9) thumbhole stock; and 10) foregrip.[7] All semi-automatic versions of "assault" style rifles and shotguns purchased prior to January 15, 2013 are grandfathered, but must be registered within one year of the SAFE Act passage.[8]
a ban on hand guns - New York City, which is effectively a "no-issue" jurisdiction for carry pistol licenses,[10] has even stricter laws, including those regulating handguns exclusively kept at home, thereby making it difficult to virtually impossible for ordinary citizens to obtain, possess, or carry firearms lawfully within New York City.[11]
May issue concealed carry, permits for each weapon- New York is a "may-issue" state, in that the individual licensing official (typically a local police chief or sheriff) has discretion to issue a license or permit to possess handguns, or carry a concealed firearm. The licensing authority may require the licensee go through firearms training and education, or dictate the conditions under which a permit holder can possess handguns or carry a concealed weapon
My expectations are what millions of other perfectly sane people wish to enjoy the protections of!
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)Even NY's SAFE Act doesn't come close to a "complete ban" on "anything semi-automatic."
Handguns are tightly regulated in NY, but are not completely banned, even in NYC.
Yes, open carry is illegal.
Yes, "may issue" is the order of the day.
While all handguns must be listed on a New York State pistol permit, there is not a separate permit required for each one, and the cost to add each handgun to a permit is a minimal administrative fee -- $5 in my county.
Three out of your five contentions are untrue, so yes, 60% wrong.
VADem1980
(53 posts)For all intents and purposes, hand guns are effectively banned in New York City. If only a tiny handful of politically connected individuals could vote, you would agree that effectually democracy in that place is banned, no?
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)Having the right to own a handgun?
WOW you sound like a 1%r.
VADem1980
(53 posts)But hey, nice strawman.
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)That's what they have. Are you changing your mind?
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)So you are agreeable to "a tiny handful of politically connected individuals" having the right to posses firearms when no others can?
Still sounds like you are a 1%.
discntnt_irny_srcsm
(18,482 posts)An excuse given when one is shown to be incorrect.
You're new at this aren't you.
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)But you said "New York" at first, not "New York City." It's a common elitist error. Nice to see you conflating gun rights with voting rights, though. I think you might be getting the hang of this.
VADem1980
(53 posts)Gun "rights" have more in common with slavery. I was just making an example.
Straw Man
(6,625 posts)Your "example" was perfectly apt: rights reserved for the few as opposed to rights recognized for the many. Now you may go ahead and explain your slavery analogy.
VADem1980
(53 posts)It seems your name is richly deserved.
oneshooter
(8,614 posts)Post #24
VADem1980
(53 posts)oneshooter
(8,614 posts)Straw Man
(6,625 posts)I refer only to the weakness of your arguments.
You are the one who conflated gun rights and slavery. Remember? And you're accusing me of ad hominem?
No, you're not very good at this. Apparently you don't even know what a "straw man fallacy" is.
gopiscrap
(23,765 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)DonP
(6,185 posts)Pullo
(594 posts)LOL, Bloomy must be proud.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)from a 15 point lead when it came out Bloomberg was pouring money into it.
Oh yeah, thank you Libertarian Party we couldn't do it without you.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)mwrguy
(3,245 posts)ONWARD
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)As soon as Bloomberg and former Monsanto PR flack, now mouthpiece for Astroturf Moms, Shannon Watts hit the scene TMcC went from a 15 point lead across the state to winning within the margin of error with a Libertarian spoiler and a higher turnout in the DC bedroom communities. Put it another way, without the Libertarian siphoning votes from Kenny, we wouldn't be celebrating.
Another factor is the money advantage TMcC had over Kenny, something like 10-1. The RNC wants to purge the Tea Party, thus it didn't support Kenny, and Bloomberg poured money into TMcC's campaign. Given how well the Libertarian did along with TMcC, Kenny's theocratic tendencies was a bigger loser, which is a good thing.
In short, gun control won a squad level action in a battle that really is a draw, but is still losing the war.
The loser was really theocracy.
Edit to ask, isn't true that Bloomberg et al didn't enter the race until TMcC was projected to win?
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Personally, I strongly suspect the latter. McAuliffe's support of gun control probably made the race closer than it would have been otherwise (and tipped the election the other way if the GOP hadn't nominated such an extremist jackwagon).
mwrguy
(3,245 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Clearly that will depend on just where the election is, but there was certainly a time in VA when that position would have been political suicide.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)I am sure the government employees in the northeast part of Viginia drive the vote.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)sarisataka
(18,779 posts)were defeated in their elections. Hard to find info on that.
friendly_iconoclast
(15,333 posts)Daniel Juarez Hawthorne, CA
(He was charged with perjury in August)
Patrick J. Morris San Bernardino, CA
Richard A. Moccia Norwalk, CT
Gow Fields Lakeland, FL
Earnestine D. Pittman East Point, GA
Nancy Chaney Moscow, ID
Joshua J. Cohen Annapolis, MD
Thatcher W. Kezer, III Amesbury, MA
Linda M. Balzotti Brockton, MA
James H. Suttle Omaha, NE
Eric A. Spear Portsmouth, NH
Lorenzo T. Langford Atlantic City, NJ
Robert L. Bowser East Orange, NJ
Mary Foster Peekskill, NY
Thomas S. Richards Rochester, NY
Robbie Perkins Greensboro, NC
Jackie Holcombe Morrisville, NC
Ted Andrzejewski Eastlake, OH
Margaret D. Stock Butler, PA
Pete Lagiovane Chambersburg, PA
Bonnie Heath Pottstown, PA
Ralph Harrington West Elizabeth, PA
Mike McGinn Seattle, WA