Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumWhy Americans don’t understand Israeli Jews
Excerpt:
Most Americans hate it when Israelis say to them, “Well, you don’t live here, so you don’t know,” when discussing Israeli politics. Yes, most Americans can understand that they do not suffer the consequences of Israeli and regional politics on an everyday basis—or for that matter, ever. However, the logic of stating that someone who doesn’t reside in a country can’t comment on its politics seems to completely diverge from accepting objective opinion, and also seems to counter any foreign policy analyst who isn’t exclusively commenting on his or her own country. It is precisely because Americans don’t live in Israel that they feel they can be less emotional about issues relating to Israel.
Another sensitive spot is political incorrectness. Many Israelis will joke about racism, the Holocaust or terrorist attacks, oftentimes as a way of coping with the political and military situation in the country. For Americans, these jokes are simply incomprehensible. For one, Americans have had few terrorist attacks on their own soil, unlike the second intifada, for example, in Israel. Second, America’s history of racism is a turbulent one, fought over centuries, and remains a sensitive topic today. American political and social culture denounces overt jokes on subjects like terrorism or race—even sketch comedies in the United States favor nuanced commentary on race or war rather than outright jokes about the subjects, which Israeli comedies favor. For most Americans, telling a joke about a bomb would be in extremely poor taste. So, when the Israeli father of incoming White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel makes a comment about an Arab, most likely intended as a joke, it becomes national news and the subject of a sizable controversy.
The army is also viewed in completely different ways by Israelis and Americans. For Americans, the military is a place where you learn how to fight and use weapons against an enemy. The majority of Americans do not serve, and those who do are oftentimes deployed to regions far beyond their home country. There hasn’t been a draft in the United States since Vietnam (even then it was extraordinarily unpopular) and no universal civil service requirement exists either. Many Americans believe the Israel Defense Forces should reflect the military in the United States, but in most cases it doesn’t. The way I see it, Israelis look at the army as a time to bond with other countrymen and women, a place to learn a skill that can be used later in the workforce, and a place where a type of unification occurs - no matter your origin, you are a solider like anyone else. Americans can’t, essentially, understand the role the military plays in Israeli life, because it just doesn’t appear in Americans’ life as often. Israelis use the army as a networking resource, a place to meet other friends or a potential mate; oftentimes roles in the military will determine much of a person’s adult life. In America, this just isn’t the case. Oftentimes, the prevalence of a military experience in Israeli life leads Americans to view Israelis as a violent people, and this has grander ramifications on American-Israeli relations.
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/why-americans-don-t-understand-israeli-jews-1.426753
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saras
(6,670 posts)"oftentimes roles in the military will determine much of a person’s adult life"
There are damned good reasons why America doesn't want to be like this. It's not just an arbitrary career choice.
"Israelis look at the army as a time to bond with other countrymen and women...and a place where a type of unification occurs - no matter your origin, you are a solider like anyone else."
Ick. Just... ick.
Personally I looked forward to a country that hasn't had to militarize for a few generations - cultures just start to blossom when the effects of war and militarization finally fade away, but the neocons sold us out on that one. If we'd only had the sense to get the hell out of the Middle East in the seventies and get off of oil when the getting was good...
shira
(30,109 posts)Israelis have no choice but to serve, so they make the best out of it. They don't serve, they die. It's as simple as that.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)No one refuses on grounds as conscientious objector status, eh?
shira
(30,109 posts)Fortunately for Americans, they have neighbors like Canada and Mexico.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Sunday school? really
oberliner
(58,724 posts)You don't think most go any more?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)in the first place? .I've known quite a few none went to Sunday school heck not many secular non-Jewish kids go to Sunday school that I know of
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Pretty much every American Jewish kid who has a bar or bat mitzvah goes to Sunday school up until that year for at least some period of time.
Unless of course they attend a Jewish day school or the like.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)now perhaps Bar Mitzvah lessons were held on Sunday for some but the term Sunday School caps or no generally refers to Christian instruction of young children held on Sunday's either after or even during church services so the term would be misunderstood unless of course you will say that Jews would not misunderstand is that the case?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Check out this info from Wikipedia for the basics:
Hebrew school can be either (1) the Jewish equivalent of Sunday school - an educational regimen separate from secular education, focusing on topics of Jewish history and learning the Hebrew language, or (2) a primary, secondary or college level educational institution where some or all of the classes are taught in Hebrew.
The first usage is more common in the United States, while the second is used elsewhere outside of Israel, for example, in reference to the Colegio Hebreo Unión in Barranquilla, Colombia, or the Associated Hebrew Schools in Toronto. See Jewish day school.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_school
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but as you wish however the useage of terms demonstrates a lack of understanding
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... you're telling Jewish people what we call our own religious education based on the fact that you "have a few Jewish friends"?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)denotes Christian nursery school type thing usually held on Sunday morning
the rest is a rather sophomoric attempt at insult and backhanded accusation of antisemitism do you understand?
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)...because you believe that term applies exclusively to Xtian religious education. I'll let everyone know at our next International Conspiracy Meeting.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)you are free to call Hebrew school whatever you like but don't get in hissy if you are misunderstood
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)This Jew appreciates your tolerance.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)nothing more or less but if you feel better calling it that what can I say
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)You would think a progressive would understand that, wouldn't you?
What is common in YOUR community may not be common in another community, ya think?
I'm not willing to make "my way or the highway" pronouncements about how Lutherans spend their Sunday afternoons based on the fact that I know a few people with German surnames.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)pronouncements as you claim and enlighten me please just what would you consider to be "my community" as in mine not yours I do not presume to know such things this should be indeed interesting
cali
(114,904 posts)who didn't have any religious component growing up. No bar or bat mitzvah no Synagogue.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)If they didn't have a bar or bat mitzvah, then they probably didn't go to Sunday school.
I can only speak from personal experience, but most of the Jews that I knew growing up were secular, but they pretty much all went to Sunday school and had bar/bat mitzvahs. Things dropped off precipitously after turning thirteen, generally speaking, for the secular Jews with respect to that sort of thing.
Most Jews I know who are secular still participate in a lot of the rituals (seder, hanukah candle-lighting, etc) even though they don't go to synagogue, keep kosher, or believe in the religious tenets of Judaism. During 7th grade, I pretty much went to a Bar or Bat Mitzvah every weekend, and almost none of those families were religious in any way. We had about sixty kids in our Sunday school class - I'd say about 3/4th of them were secular.
So I have nothing but anecdotal evidence, of course, but my only point was that the author commenting about "Sunday school" did not strike me as odd at all in the way that it did for the poster who felt that the author somehow was showing ignorance of American Jews in using that phrase. I don't agree with that, which is the sole point I was trying to make.
Shaktimaan
(5,397 posts)Every Jew I know did.
Behind the Aegis
(54,057 posts)Who knew we were all "wrong."
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)well that is nice indeed 
however in common American English usage Sunday school denotes Christian nursery school type thing usually held on Sunday morning
Behind the Aegis
(54,057 posts)I had Hebrew school on Wednesdays. Sunday school was religious and took place on Sundays.
To help you along...
Sunday school
n.
1. A school, generally affiliated with a church or synagogue, that offers religious instruction for children on Sundays.
2. The teachers and pupils of such a school.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Sunday+school
Sunday school
noun
1. a school, now usually in connection with a church, for religious instruction on Sunday.
2. the members of such a school.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sunday+school
Definition of SUNDAY SCHOOL
: a school held on Sunday for religious education; also: the teachers and pupils of such a school
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sunday%20school
It is "enjoyable" watching you "school" 5 Jews on what we know and don't know.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)associated with a church and the only thing I am schooling as you claim on is common usage your free to call Hebrew school whatever you want it is enjoyable indeed though that 5 people turned out for this exercise in ???????
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Behind the Aegis
(54,057 posts)Sunday School was for teaching the Talmud and other Jewish religious issues. I find it enjoyable you think you know more than 5 Jews.
On edit: Only ONE said it was usually associated with Church. All three said "religious education."
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)but you are free to make any claim you want however I am glad you chimed back in 'cause it seems you left out part of your free dictionary link
Sunday school
n.
1. A school, generally affiliated with a church or synagogue, that offers religious instruction for children on Sundays.
2. The teachers and pupils of such a school.
Sunday school
n
1. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms)
a. a school for the religious instruction of children on Sundays, usually held in a church hall and formerly also providing secular education
b. (as modifier) a Sunday-school outing
2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) the members of such a school
2003-2011 Princeton University, Farlex Inc.
once again it comes down to common usage no matter what you wish to seem to accuse me of or insinuate
Behind the Aegis
(54,057 posts)You are wrong.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)not what you can or can not call it but as I pointed out long ago a quick Google of the term Sunday school will show at least has for the past few hours, it could I suppose change a list of Christian schools, sorry I did not create this it simply is and as I have said if you want to call it Sunday school be my guest
Behind the Aegis
(54,057 posts)9. When did secular American Jewish kids go to Sunday School ?
in the first place? .I've known quite a few none went to Sunday school heck not many secular non-Jewish kids go to Sunday school that I know of
Five Jews have now told you we all attended Sunday School. I have even shown that Sunday School refers to religious education. You moved the goalposts to "common usage" rather than just admitting you didn't know. And, if you had gone to the wiki page like you instructed Oberliner for "Sunday School", you would have seen, "Hebrew School (also called "Sunday School" by Reform Jews)" in the related links.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)be my guest and BTW your screen shot is from hours ago when it was a one on one well before the middle of night pile on that occurred here and now you change it to Reform Jews ?
Behind the Aegis
(54,057 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I did not specify that in every comment be my guest to do that as well, and your last comment was the first time Reform Jews was specified
Response to azurnoir (Reply #53)
Behind the Aegis This message was self-deleted by its author.
shira
(30,109 posts)Azurnoir can therefore safely ignore it.
The other 2 sources are just as bad for noting Sunday School is:
a) "usually in connection with a church".
b) "a school held on Sunday for religious education".
Unbelievable.
Even the other 2 sources allow for a Sunday School to be Jewish.
This is a conspiracy, I tell ya'...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...as you said it's quite a few, whether they went to Sunday School. It's okay that you didn't know. Why would they tell you unless specifically asked?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Sunday School using that term? Because I have never before this thread heard a Jew use that term Sunday School
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts) azurnoir
(45,850 posts)however in common American English usage Sunday school denotes Christian nursery school type thing usually held on Sunday morning
but I'll take your word for it however in my area it was held during the week and when I was older I babysat for the Israeli teacher, he husband was a student studying cartography at the U here
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)as I pointed out to another poster in my area it was held during the week Monday -Thursday usually
however in common American English usage Sunday school denotes Christian nursery school type thing usually held on Sunday morning
shira
(30,109 posts)...during the week. So to make up for that, they're sent to Sunday Hebrew School. The reason for Sunday is because Saturday is still the Sabbath. And then there are secular American Jewish children who go to Hebrew School during the week and also go to Sunday school, like I did.
But I get it. We're probably all lying to you and this is some conspiracy. You know better than the American Jewish forum participants here.
Keep digging in, Az. I can only...
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)in common American English Sunday school denotes Christian nursery school held on Sunday morning if you wish to call Hebrew school Sunday school then be my guest
I am almost complimented though that 3 of you turn up in the middle of night for this too funny and kind of desperate really
shira
(30,109 posts)And rather than acknowledge your ignorance, you're digging yourself even deeper. The least you could've done is say you didn't know American secular Jews called Sunday Hebrew School 'Sunday School'.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... The term "Sunday School (tm)" is a registered trade mark of the Xtian church.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)what common usage means hint it's not the same as ™ really it's not 
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)well okay and to be honest I have never heard that one before as Hebrew school in my area was held Monday-Thursday
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... if someone is unwilling to budge their thinking in the face of OVERWHELMING evidence to the contrary on this minor subject. How dogmatic would they tend to be on something they actually feel strongly about? Regardless of how poorly they are informed on that subject?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)then be my guest, I am not denying anything as you claim
oberliner
(58,724 posts)The point is, Sunday School/Hebrew School is something very common among American Jews.
Your point that the author of the piece somehow didn't know what they were talking about because they used the term "Sunday School" is off-base.
Many Jewish Americans use that term.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)usually denotes a Christian nursery school type of thing held on Sunday's, you claim many American Jew use that term quite frankly I've never until last night heard of it used in that way to denote Hebrew school or other Jewish religious training held on Sundays and BTW the original quote from Ha'aretz specified secular something that seemed to get lost
nice to see you back this morning and you should really thank your supporters, did you sleep well, I hope so.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)"you claim many American Jew(sic) use that term quite frankly I've never until last night heard of it use"
You're willing to argue with people over a dozen posts and tell US we don't know what to call an institution that we all attended in childhood based on what precisely? Your vast knowledge of Judaica? Even the most learned rabbi is willing to admit he's wrong.
Is you're level of expertise on the I/P Conflict is at the same level as your familiarization with American Judaism? If you're not willing to admit you're wrong here, how unbiased can you be on any topic?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)now as I pointed out the original quote from Ha'aretz said secular here is wiki on Sunday school
The role of the Sunday Schools changed with the Education Act 1870 [2], in the 1920 the promoted sports, and it was common for teams to compete in a Sunday School League. They were social centres hosting amateur dramatics and concert parties.[1] By the 1960, the term Sunday School could refer to the building and not to any education classes, and by the seventies even largest Sunday School at Stockport had been demolished. From then Sunday School became the generic name for many different types of religious education pursued on Sundays by various denominations.
This page was last modified on 18 April 2012 at 23:19.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_school
now do you understand the meaning of secular?
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)...we're saying? She's the same way WRT all things I/P. What she's doing is tantamount (just for you Jefferson24) to calling us liars. We just "claim" things, both WRT to I/P as well as Jewish topics.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)
pelsar
(12,283 posts)i went to hebrew school in the afternoons....sunday, monday and thursday up until the 10th grade in high school. We called it hebrew school, not sunday school. (it would have been very boring except for Debbie P, who had developed nicely over the years....)
We knew it was called sunday school by others synagogues but they were conservative and reform, not the orthodox synagogue and community that i belonged to.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I already knew most of what you as I pointed out numerous times last night however never not once have until last night heard Hebrew school or any Jewish religious training referred to as Sunday school in that term, honestly by anyone Reform , Orthodox, or Conservative, now perhaps it's a local idiom or perhaps just some folks trying to make a rhetorical point 
and also once again the Ha'aretz quote was specific to secular Jews so really none of the religious stuff should apply
Swede
(33,318 posts)Too bad you didn't.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Were you actually up all night posting about this topic?
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... Damned if they do
... Dead if they don't
bemildred
(90,061 posts)I would wager that Americans as a generality are well aware of where they live, and that Israel is a foreign country.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I don't think the author was saying that Americans literally do not know where they live. Rather, I think the author was saying that some Americans act as if they know Israel as well as someone who lives there.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)And what is his solution: that WE should try harder and have more understanding.
Do you see the problem with that?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)But I do think there is a gulf of understanding - which is the central thesis of the article.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)In fact I point it out from time to time myself. I'm just saying that this sort of thing in the OP does nothing to fix that; the differences have deep roots, they are not mere oversights; and I quite disagree with the notion that it is up to us somehow to do a better job of "understanding" Israeli views. He seems well-meaning but quite naive to me.
shira
(30,109 posts)It's just acknowledging they don't know as much about Israel as they think they know. It's why the average Israeli can't take opinions from know-nothing Americans seriously. For example, Peter Beinart. He could talk at a moderate leftwing/liberal function in Israel, but he'd be laughed out of the room.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Most "Americans" know little about Israel and care even less, and vice-versa. Both sides see the relationship though the lens of a few simple-minded stereotypes, and both consistently talk past each other. It used to be better, but Bibi is neither intellectually or politically in a position to do much else.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)it is the film Defamation but about 5 minutes in the director's Yoav Shamir Grandmother goes on a rant about about American Jews and sorry the only thing I could find was the entire film
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Philip Weiss himself couldn't stop raving about it.
shira
(30,109 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)the director is an Israeli Jew are you implying that he is antisemitic too?
shira
(30,109 posts)They constantly equate the Jewish State to the Nazis.
And when another opportunity to bash Jews comes along, they erupt in multiple orgasms.
Jew haters love anything that portrays Jews negatively. Just like David Duke and his hordes. It's really, really difficult distinguishing the rhetoric b/w Mondoweiss and David Duke. Can you tell the difference?
pelsar
(12,283 posts)you guys (and i mean that to mean the Americans living in America) are so fuked up with your sensitivities that it makes normal conversation impossible.
my guess? probably because your simply not comfortable with the "other", don't know the "other" and are so afraid of insulting them, that you can't even have a regular conversation with 'them. i.e. your sensitivities in fact destroy normalization with the different ethnic groups (i've seen that here with kens posts of "apologizing"
The point about the army is very true and probably the key. The IDF is an integrator like no other. If your good, even if your an "ethiopian" not only can you make it to the commando units but on the way up every one you meet, gets their prior bigotry squashed....and there will be a million jokes about how the army saves money on camouflage paint...
and in the "lessor units' the integration is impossible to ignore, people finish the army with friends all over the country, where they would normally never even meet them.....and the ethnic jokes are part of everyday life, which makes for healthier relationships...
on a side note, of course bigotry remains and will probably always remain, but the american system of being scared to say the wrong thing because of someone somewhere my be terribly insulted not the solution....
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... when non-Jews are surprised that Jews aren't a monolithic hive mind. That Jews -- like all humans -- absorb our personalities and our ideas not only from our ethnicity but from the culture in which we're brought up.
