As support widens for Jewish prayer on Temple Mount, should we fear apocalyptic consequences?

[Little Tich]

Source: Times of Israel

With almost daily disturbances at the most contested and incendiary of holy sites, and with an increasing number of religious Zionists yearning for a Third Temple, Israeli activists walk a fine line between peaceful protest and provocation

All hell broke loose Tuesday on the Temple Mount as two white-clad Jewish men prostrated themselves in an overt act of worship. Face down on the ground, the men were immediately surrounded by a mix of Border and Israel Police — and an encroaching crowd of angry Muslim men and Jordanian Waqf officials.

The police, wearing bullet-proof vests and armed with stun grenades and tear gas, whisked the two men from the melee. A short brawl between Israeli forces and Muslim men ensued, and a total of eight men were ejected from the Temple Mount — or Haram al-Sharif as it is known to Muslims — before things returned to “normal.”

But “normal” is a loaded term on the Temple Mount, historically the preeminent Jewish holy site, and the Muslims’ third most revered spot.

“Normal,” according to the status quo agreement established by former Defense Minister Moshe Dayan 10 days following the holy site’s capture by Israeli soldiers during the 1967 Six Day War, means Jews may freely visit the Haram al-Sharif plaza. However, it also means that the site is to be administered by the Jordanian Waqf — and only Muslims are allowed to worship there. (The 1994 peace treaty with Jordan cemented this deal.) The Israeli government, at the time eager to quell Arab unrest in its newly conquered territories, reinforced that status quo agreement as a necessary security measure and nixed the few anguished voices who called for Jewish prayer.

Read more: http://www.timesofisrael.com/as-support-widens-for-jewish-prayer-on-temple-mount-should-we-fear-apocalyptic-consequences/

Note: Long article, but with lots of info on what's going on with the Temple Mount.

[oberliner]

1. Let anybody pray wherever they want

As long at they are respectful about it and don't disrupt others.

[Little Tich]

2. Currently, it's not possible.

The whole issue has gone sour, and it's become an issue about Jewish sovereignty in Jerusalem. The status quo has to stand until there's a peace treaty.

[Igel]

3. It's an issue in a number of places, actually.

Prayers aren't allowed in the former Hagia Sophia in Istanbul for the same kind of reasons: It's offensive to the Muslims and, well, if it used to be used for prayers perhaps letting prayers happen will strip away the place's mosqueness and defile it.

There was a similar kind of tussle over the famous Cordoba mosque. Prayers were banned, and Muslims pitched a fit and said it was discriminatory. Nothing when asked about other places with similar, reversed policies.

Meanwhile, most of the "holy places" that aren't Jewish are under formal Muslim control, and Arafat, at least, made a habit of visiting them every year or so just to show that Muslims and Muslim prayers are okay there. It's a strictly asymmetric relationship, but submission usually is.

[Little Tich]

4. It's a common right-wing nationalist ploy for the dominant ethnic group to claim being discriminated

against by other ethnic / religious groups.

You may have noticed that the groups and people who claim discrimination aren't those who are usually known for their love of equal rights - Bayit Yehudi, the Temple Institute, Miri Regev etc. I'm always a bit suspicious when people who usually are for discrimination, suddenly are against.

The thing is that this has nothing to do with giving equal religious rights overall, it's all about Jewish rights at the expense of others. If there was a bill bestowing complete equality to all religions in Jerusalem and expressly forbidding Israel to favor one religion or its adherents over another, these groups and people would be all against, even if it would by default provide Jewish prayer rights on the Temple Mount.

I've seen this before, whether it's about halal certification or minarets - racist right-wingers claim that their rights are trampled, while they're always against any real equal rights.

Interestingly, I just found this about a German political party wanting to ban minarets, islamic veils etc in the news, and it illustrates my point exactly what this is all about:

GERMAN PARTY ADOPTS ANTI-ISLAM PLATFORM
Source: The Right Perspective

A populist German party stunned Europe on Sunday by calling for a ban on minarets, Islamic veils and the Muslim call to prayer in the country.

Read more: http://www.therightperspective.org/2016/05/01/german-party-adopts-anti-islam-platform/

[shira]

5. But you're proven wrong with the Western Wall where anyone of any faith can pray. N/T

[Little Tich]

7. please explain. n/t

[leftynyc]

8. How about it's ONLY the Muslims

that are forbidding ANYONE to pray except for other Muslims at a religious site important to Jews and Christians also. Only the Muslims are asking for special treatment. Jews and Christians don't seem to be forbidding anyone from praying anywhere they wish. ONLY Muslims are making those kinds of proclamations. But that seems to be hypocritically honky dory with you.

[Little Tich]

18. Would you be against a law guaranteeing equal treatment for all religions in Jerusalem?

It would solve the problem with Jews not being allowed to pray on the Temple Mount, and it would also solve the problems Palestinian Christians and Muslims have with access to their holy city.

I perceive that your argument may not be about equal religious rights for everyone, but something else entirely.

[leftynyc]

20. No it wouldn't

Control for the Mount was (stupidly) given to the Muslims. No Israeli law would change that. And no Muslims are kept from their holy city (unless they're terrorists and not allowed into the country all together). Try again.

[Little Tich]

30. So simply being Palestinian is a crime that means that you're a terrorist and not allowed to go to

Jerusalem?

It seems as if being Palestinian is the only reason needed for being denied entry to Jerusalem.

Actually, I think a law protecting their religious rights would change that, and it would be pretty hard for Jordan to deny Jews the right to pray on the Temple Mount if all religions were treated equally.

[leftynyc]

31. Let me know when you

want to stop shoving words into my mouth. That you think Jordan (or the Palestinians) are keeping that law because some security concerns Israel has, is patently ridiculous. Islam is an exclusionary religion. That's the reality. Like I said before, you want Israel to forget history, forget these people continually tried to destroy Israel and LOST but keep coming back for more, forget that a terrorist organization is in control of Gaza and give up MORE land, the way they gave up gaza after the disaster that turned into. I think it's insane, so does Israel. The Palestinians have shown ZERO indication that they are in the least bit interested in peace. They just want what they want and count on stupid crap like bds to get what they want. They're going to get nothing that way. Nothing. And that's what they deserve until they show a real willingness to sit down and hammer out an agreement.

[Little Tich]

32. Your opposition to equal rights has no more bite than a week-old puppy.

Equal rights are good. Discrimination sucks.

[leftynyc]

33. When everytime you extend

your hand and it gets cut off, you stop extending your hand - if you have brains, that is. Your position on equal rights is laughable when one considers which side you're supporting - who the fuck has equal rights under the Palestinians? Women? Gays? Jews? Christians? WHO HAS THE EQUAL RIGHTS? But for you, Israel is supposed to forget all the history and keep banging their heads against the wall. Fuck that. Your scorn means nothing to them (or to me).

[6chars]

34. where this comes from

I have been thinking about why some people say in different words "we have to emancipate the world, and we must start by getting the Jews in line." Sometimes - like Stalin - it is because they just don't like Jews. But to be generous, in more civilized quarters, it might be a real interest in human rights combined with subconscious remnants of upbringing in Christian settings. The New Testament and its interpretations are all about the Jews this and the Jews that. This leads to a fetish where people want to save the Jews (from themselves, from their "disbelief&quot or punish the Jews or hold the Jews to a holy standard, or just follow everything the Jews do with great fascination and be sure to have an opinion on it. While some Jews might enjoy the flattering attention of such fetishists, overall it is bothersome.

[leftynyc]

35. Israel gets held to a standard

that no other country does. Who else is continually asked to reward terrorists and terrorism with unilaterally disarming. You would think after what happened in gaza, and getting nothing but violence, rockets and terrorism in return, would have swayed some but the simpleminded just vomit forth "Israel bad". It's why nobody with any power gives a crap about them. Is it good old fashioned anti semitism? I have no idea and frankly, I stopped caring about the why.

[6chars]

36. Why is not important

Basically, these folks have the moral low ground, and so Israel has to just figure out what it should do to get along, without paying attention to things like UNESCO resolutions one way or another.

[leftynyc]

37. Agree 100%

They know better than anyone else - posting on their social media accounts from their living rooms while drinking wine - what needs to be done. And protecting your country from terrorism is on the top of every leader's list.

[shira]

11. There are no restrictions at the Western Wall (Kotel). Everyone can pray there...

Israel guarantees religious freedom. Meanwhile, you justify bigotry when you argue Jews cannot pray at their holiest site on earth.

So it's not about people who discriminate and then claim they're discriminated against.

Jews aren't the bigots here. Their critics are.

[Little Tich]

12. There are indications that Israel favors the Jewish religion in Jerusalem.

For example, Israel has decided to rebuild the Hurva Synagogue in Jerusalem, but there's no corresponding rebuilding of Christian or Muslim religious buildings like the ancient Sheikh Eid Mosque that Israel razed in 1967. (http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rare-photograph-reveals-ancient-jerusalem-mosque-destroyed-in-1967.premium-1.436593) And in spite of the Muslim Arab population increasing by almost 250 000 people, no new Mosques have been built.

Palestinian Christians and Muslims have limited access to their holy places in Jerusalem; Palestinian Christians aren't allowed to enter Jerusalem during Easter (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/palestinian-christians-marking-easter-are-kept-from-jerusalem-holy-site-un-envoy-says/2014/04/19/1b5460f8-c7d5-11e3-8b9a-8e0977a24aeb_story.html), and Palestinian Muslims are frequently barred from accessing the Haram al-Sharif (the Temple mount) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_the_Palestinian_territories#Freedom_of_access_to_holy_places).

Israeli leaders also stress the Jewish connection to Jerusalem while downplaying its significance for at least two other important religions.

If you actually believe that Israel doesn't favor Judaism and its adherents in Jerusalem, please show me what Israel is doing to strengthen the Christian and Muslim ties to their holy city.

[shira]

15. Your last 2 sentences are comical. You accuse Israel of downplaying Jerusalem's significance....

....to Christians and Muslims while favoring UNESCO's latest resolution that erases Jewish history from the Temple Mount altogether.

You really stepped into that one, didn't you?

But you're a neutral observer.



Pull the other leg.

[Little Tich]

19. I don't favor the resolution, I just pointed out that the names used were technically correct.

My accusation that Israel favors Judaism in Jerusalem over Islam and Christianity still stands.

[leftynyc]

21. Gotta say

I much better like the more honest you. I always suspected your "neutral" stance was bullshit and enjoy being proven right. Yes, Israel is a Jewish state - one where Christians and Muslims can pray where ever they wish - let me repeat that WHERE EVER THEY WISH - NO EXCEPTIONS. If only Muslims gave the same rights to anyone else that Israel gives to everyone else. That would be nice.

[Little Tich]

25. If you believe that Muslims and Christians can pray wherever they wish - then you're living in

Dreamland.

I've already shown that Muslims and Christians from the West Bank and Gaza have great difficulties getting to Jerusalem on their holy days. For example, how do Christians get to Jerusalem when the West Bank is closed off every Easter? What about Gaza?

Heaping scorn on Muslims can't hide the fact that religious rights in Israel only applies to one religion, and that Israel is very far behind the US in that regard.

[leftynyc]

28. You mean borders and checkpoints

that are necessary because of terrorism that is never ending. Funny how you leave that part out and pretend it's because Israel just said "fuck it, let's just not let them in".

[shira]

23. You don't favor it because....? n/t

[Little Tich]

26. Harsh language and more than a little one-sided.

If the resolution had been sponsored by a Western country, it would've still been pretty critical of Israel, but in a more constructive way.

[shira]

27. Oh...not because it's bigoted against Jews, fake Jewish graves.

Last edited Wed May 4, 2016, 07:10 AM - Edit history (1)

Tich,
It's pure antisemitism to deny Jews their history, their rights.

[shira]

39. It's as bad as Holocaust Denial...denying Jewish history. n/t

[oberliner]

6. Sure it is

People need to think outside the box and open their minds.

[Little Tich]

14. Sorry, no thinking out of the box for me if it leads to more discrimination.

I don't think the answer to the religious discrimination against non-Jews in Jerusalem is to allow Jews to pray on the Temple Mount. Israel could learn a lot about how to avoid religious discrimination from the US. Netanyahu should open his mind and read the First Amendment to the United States Constitution - why can't Israel have something similar?

[oberliner]

16. Letting people pray where they want to pray is the opposite of discrimination

If a site is important to people of different faiths, they should all be allowed to pray there as long as they do so respectfully.

[Little Tich]

17. Then why can't Israel have laws that give equal access to their holy places for everyone?

Israel can make a new law that goes something like this:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Problem solved.

[shira]

24. Israel already gives equal access to holy places for everyone.

Meanwhile you have no problem with Muslims forbidding Jews & Christians from praying on the Mount.

And it has nothing to do with Israel, nice try though.

Jordan did the same thing after 1949 and never allowed Jews to pray in E.Jerusalem.

The only bigotry here is what you keep defending.

[Little Tich]

29. Gee, I'm really sorry for believing in universal democratic values and equal treatment for all

religions...

You seem to think that the only religious discrimination in Jerusalem is against Jews. I don't agree at all - Judaism and its adherents are given preferential treatment, and Palestinians have great difficulties getting to their holy places. Your argumentation is weak and unconvincing.

The only thing that I'm still wondering about is those fake graves mentioned in the UNESCO resolution - fake graves or false accusation?

[shira]

38. You don't believe in Universal Democratic Values & Equal Treatment if you have your way....

You pretend Israel's Jews have no security concerns whatsoever and that anything they do for security reasons is always an excuse to oppress poor little Hamas & Islamic Jihad victims.

I want you first to acknowledge Jews have every reason to be security conscious in their dealings with the Palestinians.

If you can't do that, it says more about you than anything else. Remember, Jews are humans too and they have the right not to be stabbed, run-over, shot at, or blown up.

[King_David]

9. No Jews or dogs allowed?

Imagine if Jews said no Muslims allowed to pray in Mecca .

[leftynyc]

10. So sick of the sniveling hypocrisy

We ALL know what the reaction would be if the Israeli's stopped ANYONE from praying anywhere they damn well please but turn away from the disgusting actions that keep everyone but Muslims praying at a site important to Christians and Jews. Dozens of threads expressing OUTRAGEOUS OUTRAGE but nothing but pathetic excuses for this when it's the Muslims being discriminatory.

[Little Tich]

13. No dogs should be allowed on the Temple Mount, regardless of whether they intend to pray or not.

If there was a law that forced Israel not to favor or discriminate against any religion or its adherents in Jerusalem, Jews should of course be allowed to pray on the Temple Mount. Right now, there's serious ethnic and religious discrimination against non-Jews in Jerusalem, and Palestinian Christians and Muslims have difficulties accessing their holy places. If Israel can arrange for Jews to access Joseph's Tomb in Nablus, then it wouldn't be impossible to arrange trips from Gaza and the West Bank so that Palestinian Christians can go to Jerusalem on Easter and Muslims during Ramadan.

The problem is that not discriminating against non-Jews and their religions goes against the very core values of Zionism, so it will probably never happen.

[leftynyc]

22. Your insistence that Israel

"show the way" is nothing but dishonest bullshit. It's Muslims that keep everyone else from praying, it's Muslims in Saudi Arabia that will ARREST you for merely having a bible. I don't know where you got the idea that Israel doesn't allow praying anywhere anyone likes no matter their religion. It's ONLY Muslims that make those proclamations. Gee, I feel so bad for Israel having to protect their borders from terrorists. I mean, it's not like they don't have good reason to think people want to blow themselves up. But once again, "Mr. Neutrality" wants Israel to make unnecessary laws - unnecessary in Israel as anyone can pray where ever they like - but has nothing to say about the Mount which the Muslims have control over. And what have they done with that control? FORBID everyone but Muslims from praying. But you think Israel is the problem. I do appreciate you finally dropping that ridiculous mask of "neutrality" that wasn't fooling anyone anyway.