Israel/Palestine
Related: About this forumIsrael's Shabak pulls the rug under Netanyahu's feet -
Meron Rapoport
Sunday 29 November 2015
When Israel appointed Yorm Cohen in 2011 as the head of Israel's General Security Service (GSS, better known in its Hebrew name Shabak, also as Shin Bet), his nomination was received with apprehension by some parts of the population. Orthodox Jews widely identified politically with the settler movement support Cohen. Appointing an allegedly settlement-supporter as the head of Shabak could be considered as letting the cat keep an eye on the milk.
Four years later, it is hard know whether Cohen has changed his political affiliation while in office. Yet he has definitely became a constant party spoiler for Prime Minister Benyamin Netanyahu, disputing allegations made by Netanyahu against Palestinian President Mahmud Abbas and his Palestinian Authority.
In November 2014, after two Palestinians killed four civilian Israelis and an Israeli policeman in a synagogue in Jerusalem, Netanyahu rushed to claim that incitement by Abbas was at the core of this attack. Cohen, appearing before the Knesset's Foreign and Security Committee, flatly rejected these claims.
"Abu Mazen [Abbas] is not encouraging terror," he told Israeli parliamentarians, "is not interested in terror and doesn't lead to terror, even under the table."
- See more at: http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/shabak-pulls-rug-under-netanyahus-feet-1317216781#sthash.Qob67RCh.dpuf
shira
(30,109 posts)Mahmoud Abbas - Sept 16, 2015
http://www.wsj.com/articles/abbas-we-welcome-every-drop-of-blood-spilled-in-jerusalem-1445209820
Abbas declines to condemn murder of Israelis...
As Israelis ushered in the Jewish Sabbath with the grim news of the brutal murder of a father and son near Hebron, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas declined to offer a condemnation on Friday.
During a joint press conference with the president of Cyprus, the Palestinian rais told journalists in Ramallah that "our people are living under difficult conditions which have become intolerable."
"The continued Israeli occupation of our country and the escalating violence by settlers who are harming our property is filling us with despair," Abbas told the visiting President Nicos Anastasiades.
Though the president was asked specifically about Friday's shooting, he sidestepped the issue, instead accusing Israel of "obstinateness" and blaming the escalation in violence on "a lack of a diplomatic horizon."
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Abbas-declines-to-condemn-murder-of-Israelis-We-are-despaired-by-occupation-432962
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)can only read a brief paragraph.
There is no direct quote with a link that I can find on it..none.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)video has pauses and is not appearing to be in full. There is nothing from the White House
on it which gives me greater pause, since this was back in September when he allegedly
made the statements. The translation is dependent upon the Israeli foreign ministry.
If this were accurate, the WH would have made a statement..I don't see
how Kerry would have ignored it.
shira
(30,109 posts)In no way, shape, or form can Avishai be considered rightwing.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)shira
(30,109 posts)That direct quote is within the resolution.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)All I can imagine is a child sticking their fingers in their ears while shouting LA.LA LA LA. All while swallowing whole any quote uttered by anyone with Jewish blood anywhere in the wold without question. And they wonder why US policy remains as it does. They actually expect Americans to throw support to people who ELECTED a terrorist organization and the thoroughly corrupt and bloodthirsty Abbas.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Those trying to make Israel a partisan issue are making a huge mistake. NOBODY running on a proP platform and trashes Israel wouldn't lose by a huge margin. But keep deluding yourself. While the Palestinians continue to suffer.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)that's the only way your comment has any point otherwise why make such a statement?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)The subject comes up all the time - especially these days. It's part of just about every single platform. Does Israel have the right to exist and do they have the right to defend themselves - the answer is always yes. ALWAYS. Pretending otherwise just proves how deluded you are about how Americans feel about this issue. That 16% that supports the Palestinians hasn't changed and will never change unless it gets even lower.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Of course they're asked a question. WHat are you babbling about.
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)nothing I could find that attributes this quote from Abbas that is outside the realm
of the Israeli government. I also said, it gives me great pause since Kerry has not
issued any reaction to this specifically that I could find...and that would be very
odd indeed for him to do. He was recently in Israel and said nothing about it in
his statements and this was suppose to have occurred back in September.
That resolution was drafted back in June, btw.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Every single one.....
Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)Shin Bet and the White House, including Kerry, have not promoted nor even mentioned
that quote, never mind attribute it to Abbas.
But you and your like minded are free to do just that, regardless.
shira
(30,109 posts)Jefferson23
(30,099 posts)If you really believe Kerry or the WH would have let that quote wait a month
with silence on it, you're fooling yourself. The time line of what the state
department said and then what Kerry said is clear, from your own link.
Second, why the Shin Bet would not support such a use of that alleged
quote is telling as well. They don't buy what Bibi is selling about Abbas.
* November, Kerry's visit to Israel:
"This is an effort to see if we can get some concrete steps in place - begin to build them, maybe - that could calm things down a little bit so people aren't living in absolute, daily terror that they might be stabbed or driven into or shot trying to walk around their city," he said.
"It happens almost every day over there and it's terrible, and too many Israelis have been killed and stabbed, and too many Palestinians," Kerry told reporters. "And there's no excuse for any of the violence."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4729991,00.html
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)that Americans put those daily stabbings on the same plane as the cops and military killing and wounding those terrorists? That would be very foolish of you. Americans know who is engaging in violence for the sake of violence. Your delusion that they think Israelis are wrong for killing terrorists is one of the many reasons your position is so unpopular among Americans - 16% of which sympathize with the Palestinians. 16% - that's a pathetic number to hang your hat on.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)by a Republican but did not pass until now, could we say that Israel's or Netanyahu's supporters took advantage of current situation to push through a stalled bill, looks that way to me
oh what action has the POTUS taken?
King_David
(14,851 posts)azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I wonder how many of them are the same as the ones who "linked arms" with Ted Cruz and company to cheer Bibi's attempted take down of of our Democratic POTUS policies earlier this year
King_David
(14,851 posts)Bipartisan
Democratic Party supports Israel ...period
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)To make Israel a partisan issue - that would be putting them in he same bed as the teabaggers - are beneath contempt and only fooling themselves. Let them pretend Abbas wants to actually help the Palestinians all while sending them down the same blind alley their other thoroughly corrupt and bloodthirsty leaders have. They're great at deluding themselves and at patting themselves on their backs while the Palestinians continue to suffer.
King_David
(14,851 posts)Bipartisan
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Americans have turned against Israel lets we some candidates try that argument and see how far they get. Gee, I wonder why they haven't ever tried given how unpopulat they claim Israel is.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)How about commenting on that 7 in 10 that view Israel favorably. Got anything to say about that while you're pushing that Israel should be a partisan issue (just like the teabaggers are trying to do - great company you're keeping there)?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)ericson00
(2,707 posts)as in that graphic doesn't actually mean 17% of Republicans, 41% of independents, and 52% of Democrats sympathize more with the Palestinians, right? There's also a "neither/DK" and "no response" option, just like the overall numbers.
I know where you got that graph: here's a similar survey which demonstrates what I mean:
<a href="http://www.people-press.org/2014/07/15/as-mideast-violence-continues-a-wide-partisan-gap-in-israel-palestinian-sympathies/new-7-15-2014-11-00-38-am/"><img width="352" height="686" src="" class="attachment-large" alt="Mideast sympathies race age education ideo religion" /></a>
Even amongst conservative and liberal Democrats, Israel still wins big. If each result were an election, they'd all be Israel landslides.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)The delusion that Americans would dump Israel for the Palestinians (the ONLY people who actually were celebrating 9/11) is a fantasy that just refuses to die even in the face of every single poll showing the exact same thing.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)ericson00
(2,707 posts)whether you like it or not, and its only gone up in recent years and will go up.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Americans will never support an entity or a people that think violence is okay or think that hating Israel and comparing them to nazis is a legitimate position. And I guess math isn't his strong suit. I actually laughed out loud at that 2:1 statement.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)unless of course you side with Cruz against Obama?
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)sided with Cruz by your pathetic attempts to make Israel a partisan issue - just like you're doing right here. You can stop pretending there is some groundswell of support for the Palestinians with your graph. The VAST majority of Democrats either support Israel or think we should stay neutral. The number that sympathizes with the Palestinians is 16%. So the REAL comparison among Democrats is 48% vs 16% - that number supporting the Palestinians hasn't changed AT ALL. The more terrorism the Palestinians engage in and support, the less support they're going to get among Americans so even those numbers above are going to get worse for your position. Americans don't support violence as a political tool. One day, you'll realize that. But obviously not today.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)because I mention that it was Ted Cruz who engaged Netanyahu behind the POTUS back, yet you seem more disturbed by my mentioning it than the fact it occurred at all
And now you accuse me of what you just did....saying you sympathize with Cruz when I very obviously did no such thing. But you did. One day you'll realize I side with a larger percentage of Democrats than your pathetically small minority of Democrats. I love that you just keep digging that hole.
ericson00
(2,707 posts)those numbers would be even more favorable to Israel. When Hillary is President, they will rise.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)The Israeli's I met with like her very much. But holy cow, those on the right AND the left there really don't like Pres Obama.
Israeli
(4,161 posts)....and where exactly ??
This Israeli Leftist has always "liked" Obama ....cant say the same for Hilary tho ...sorry .
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)(we were on private tours) and all the others (4 in total) were all on the left - the kibbutz we went to visit a family friend at and had lunch were all leftists, everyone we struck up conversation with in restaurants and the only one I can think of that was on the right was a frum friend of my brother in law (they grew up together in NY and now he and his wife are in Tzfat). They were also all Jewish. We had to be careful where we went as Americans are also targets of the terrorists. They were ALL Hillary fans - including the friends in Tzfat.
I'm the one that told you before your trip to be careful where you went and that Americans were also targets ....or have you forgotten already ?
So ALL these Leftists you met told you they did not like President Obama ???
Bullshit leftynyc.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)I was very surprised at their vehemence against the President. I defended him up and down the line but they wouldn't budge. They all HATED Pres Obama. Their equal vehemence against Bibi is what surprised me. It all came down to the relationship with the US - they feel both Pres Obama and Bibi have hurt that relationship - tried to make it a partisan issue - and they all resented that very much.
And yes, I do remember your warning and took it to heart. I should have thanked you sooner. Apologies.
Israeli
(4,161 posts)...that hates Obama ....know plenty of Right wing Israelis that do tho .
No need for apologies ....happy you enjoyed your trip and made it home safely .
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)Every single person I met didn't like Obama and didn't like bibi - no exceptions. And for the same exact reason. It was surreal.
Israeli
(4,161 posts)So lets put it in some perspective .....you were here for how long ?
You met how many Leftists ??
I who have lived 65 years here , born and bred as a Leftist have never met an Israeli Leftist that hates Obama .
but hey ....... I bow down to your advanced experience
shira
(30,109 posts)Israeli
(4,161 posts)....but on a kibbutz ...I doubt it .
So who do you consider as Leftists then .....Meretz ??
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)the Democratic POTUS?
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)in running to Netanyahu behind the POTUS's back and Netanyahu's more than willing cooperation in this, seem much more disturbing to you and others here than the fact that it happened at all-interesting indeed
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)No idea why you keep bringing up cruz as if cruz being an asshole has fuck all to do with Americans being much more sympathetic to Israel. Keep digging, you'll find that pony any minute now.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)leftynyc
(26,060 posts)you think you made? That by strong majorities Americans sympathize with Israel more than the Palestinians - 48% vs 16% among Democrats? How about the point that 7 out of 10 Americans have positive feelings for Israel? That point? How about the fact that because ted cruz or john boehner like potato chips, I'm not obligated to hate them just to not be on the same side (which is the most infantile argument I've ever heard). Keep digging.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)So you're going to stick the infantile he likes potato chips so I'm going to hate them argument. Good luck with that trying to make Israel a partisan issue while the Palestinians continue to suffer - that 16% you're part of is bound to get them what they want....someday.
FBaggins
(26,778 posts)Nope. Only about one in four in the Gallup poll self-identify as Republican. So only two of those seven are Republicans (81% of 28%). The other five are Democrats or Independents.
Excluding Republicans entirely from the sample... There's still overwhelmingly more support for Israelis than there is for the Palestinians.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)FBaggins
(26,778 posts)The only way for 81% of the "7-in-10" to be Republicans would be for all ten to be Republicans.
In reality, Republicans only make up about two of those seven supporting Israel... because Republicans make up such a small percentage of the overall population.
Some other graphs that you conveniently ignore:
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)it looks like this
FBaggins
(26,778 posts)As noted - they were just other things that you're unable to allow yourself to come to grips with. Like the fact that whichever stat you look at, support for Israel has been growing over the last couple decades... not declining.
when you break it down by party affiliation
When you break it down by party affiliation, there are more I's than either R's or D's - yet most of them vote D. They make up a large portion of that "7 in 10" stat.
There's simply no dodging the simple fact that it doesn't matter whether we're talking R/D/I - or by age - or in-total. Support for Israel is dramatically higher than for the Palestinians.
This group sees quite a bit of intellectual dishonesty (perhaps unknowingly) in the form of ad-hominem fallacious claims that supporters of Israel are "right-wing" - when that simply isn't true.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)it seems some here are intent on sailing a river in Egypt when it comes to member of which party are the most supportive of Israel
FBaggins
(26,778 posts)83% of Republicans is only 21% of the population if Republicans are 25% of the sample (which is likely if this poll was from early this year). If another poll says that 7 in 10 support Israel nationally...only two of those seven are Republicans. The majority of support for Israel is thus coming from Democrats and Independents.
You're spamming this one graph... desperately trying to make it say something that it simply doesn't say.
when it comes to member of which party are the most supportive of Israel
We aren't debating which party is most supportive of Israel. All three blocks show solid plurality support for Israel and dramatically more support than for the Palestinians.
All three also show growing support for Israel over the last couple decades. It isn't relevant that that one party's support is growing faster... because your false claim has continually been that almost exclusively from Republicans (when support among Independents has roughly doubled over the last two decades.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Governors that are majority GOP ?
FBaggins
(26,778 posts)The poll clearly says that Democrats support Israelis dramatically more than they do Palestinians... Independents support them even more than that... and Republicans support them even more than either of the other two. It also says that support among all three groups has generally increased over the last couple decades.
What it doesn't say is that Israel is a partisan issue that Republicans support and Democrats don't. Or that most of Israel's support comes from Republicans. Or that a resolution that passed overwhelmingly by voice vote was not bipartisan because a slightly lower percentage of sponsors were Democrats.
how do you explain the House and Senate not to mention Governors that are majority GOP ?
What's to explain? Party ID is not the same thing as who shows up to vote - or who they vote for (particularly when it comes to Independents) - or how they are distributed across the states (let alone gerrymandering). VERY few races come down to issues related to Israel... since (as has been pointed out multiple times), support is fairly strong across the board.
FBaggins
(26,778 posts)Democrats support Israel over the Palestinians by more than 2-1. The fact that Republicans are even more supportive doesn't make it a partisan issue.
Pathetic indeed...
shira
(30,109 posts)But we must maintain the convenient fiction that it has nothing to do with anti-Semitism.