Imagine you're in a mirror world and...

[Bonobo]

by wearing tight jeans or brushing your crotch or even your shoulder up against a woman would allow you to subtly manipulate them to gain favor or influence...

Would you do it? How would it change your behavior? Your outlook?

Imagine you were looked upon with desire from members of the other sex all the time and with a little flirting, you could sway things to go in your favor.

I imagine it would get old fast to get unwanted attention from someone you didn't want, but on the other hand there would be all sorts of temptations to be manipulative...

Do you think you would take advantage?

By the way, I expect this will be a controversial post, but I think it could open some good dialog and we should have an open mind to consider all the negatives as well as the positives that would result.

[Warren DeMontague]

1. Whaddaya mean "Mirror" world? That's my life, man!

No, seriously, though- when I was younger, I did alright.

It's funny, the topic of speeding tickets came up recently; my wife and a female friend were like "oh, yeah, I got pulled over there- got a warning" "yeah, just a warning that time".

Heh Heh. Never once in my life have I ever gotten "just a warning". Yet, I have noticed, women do seem to get them quite a bit. Wonder why that is?

Nope, no warnings for Warren.



Which is why Warren is such an excellent driver.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. You must suck at "conversing with cops".

I've gotten many warnings. In fact I've gotten off without a ticket far more often that not.

[Bonobo]

7. From the guy who thinks men not flirt women they have not been formally introduced to.

I have to take anything you say with a pound of salt.

[4th law of robotics]

11. Good point

WS certainly is a man of contradictions.

[Warren Stupidity]

16. very true.

Consistency is the hallmark of the unimaginative
- O. Wilde.

[Warren DeMontague]

18. I thought it was the "hobgoblin of small minds"

Which reminds me, some day i'm going to have a band called the "knob gobbling hobgoblins from Gobbler's knob"

[Warren Stupidity]

15. I'd suggest saltpeter instead, but its a myth.

And I actually never used the term 'flirt', as that is not actually what the discussion was about. Flirtation is not really at all the same as "hey baby nice tits wanna fuck". Flirtation is not an overt proposition.

Flirting or coquetry is a sexual activity involving verbal or written communication as well as body language by one person to another, suggesting an interest in a deeper relationship with the other person. In most cultures, it is socially disapproved for a person to make explicitly sexual advances, but indirect or suggestive advances (i.e., flirting) may at times be considered acceptable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flirting

That discussion was interesting in that it evidenced a vast lack of empathy for women in this group, basically near-zero appreciation for what the experience of being female in our society might be like, despite the vast amount of literature and other media that explains what the female perspective is, all of which seems to be rejected out of hand here as some sort of dworkinite rad fem idiocy. I thought the mens group was better than that. I was wrong.

[Warren DeMontague]

19. If we are talking about the same discussion, i think your memory is faulty.

Because it involved a proposition in an elevator which was, by no account, anything like "nice tits wanna fuck" and yet was elevated to the level of implied rape threat in a widely broadcast creep-shaming incident on the internet.

Im sure no one wants to rehash it, but one, people here WERE sympathetic to the idea that a woman in an elevator might not be comfortable and it might not be the best place for even a friendly invitation to coffee (which is not, again, either a rape threat or a "nice tits lets fuck&quot ...

What most posters in this group were NOT willing to do, again, was to crucify this dude for an ill timed and rejected friendly proposition, nor were they willing to overly gush with sympathy for the woman who pointed this proposition out as yet another example of "WHATS WRONG WITH ALL TEH MENS ZOMG OMG OMG!!!!1111!!!"

[opiate69]

21. Yep...

I went to try and look for that thread, but it`s just too damned inconvenient to do on this friggin phone.

[Warren Stupidity]

24. it went way past that example but lets re-examine flirtation with strangers

At 4am in an elevator flirtation with a stranger is creepy. There are boundaries for appropriate flirtation as well, especially flirtation with strangers, and that was an example of when such flirtation is inappropriate. Another equivalent is "any parking garage ever". Do any of you even remotely get why?

The fact that you all don't get, or refuse to admit publicly that you get, why such behavior is perceived by many women as threatening, creepy, scary, repulsive etc. is to me appalling. Until that discussion I thought the reputation of this group was undeserved. Now I think the attitudes routinely on display here are hugely problematic.

Oh and I didn't start the rehash. It was started by others, but I ain't going to walk away from it either.

[opiate69]

26. 4am in an elevator can be vastly different environments.

For instance, 4am in a Vegas elevator during a big convention is going to be far different than in a Spokane elevator.

[4th law of robotics]

30. I was in Vegas recently

hours don't seem to mean much there. The atmosphere was the same at 4 pm as it was at 4 am (I don't think I slept that week).

Without stepping outside or checking your own watch (of course they don't provide the time in the casinos) there's really no way of telling night from day.

[opiate69]

33. Exactly.

And if I'm not mistaken, the Dawkins incident happened at a convention in Vegas.

[Warren DeMontague]

27. How is it I don't get it, when I explicitly said I do?

What I don't get is shaming this guy endlessly for what was a clumsy and rejected (yet by all accounts friendly and brief) proposal. What I don't get is holding this up as an example of "Rape Culture" when what it really is is an example of a sad guy who made the mistake of asking the wrong woman for coffee at the wrong time.

Did he make her uncomfortable? Probably. Did that mean he was sending all kinds of nasty rapey rapey nastiness at her? No. He asked he if she wanted him to join her for coffee. The mentality that turns that into a federal incident, I think, is the "problematic" one.

Conversely, I think the "attitude" in this group that some find "problematic" is the refusal to roll over and nod seriously at every single piece of questionable bullshit that comes down the pike in the name of "examples of misogyny". That's the "problem", the number one "problem" some people have with this group. Is that we don't just shut up and acquiesce, even when the assertions are flat-out fucking ludicrous.

[4th law of robotics]

29. You said it wasn't flirtation

now it is, but the environment made it inappropriate.

You also falsely compared it to "hey baby wanna fuck" instead of asking her to his room for coffee. Obviously the intent there was to have sex. But it was presented in a far less crude way and honestly, isn't the intent of many flirtations to engage in intercourse? You may consider yourself more charming but I'd guess you've spoken to another person with that intent before.

There are boundaries for appropriate flirtation as well, especially flirtation with strangers, and that was an example of when such flirtation is inappropriate. Another equivalent is "any parking garage ever". Do any of you even remotely get why?

Yes the two acceptable areas you would allow flirtation to occur would be between a couple set up by mutual friends or at a bar specifically catering to singles hoping to become couples (although presumably not past a certain hour and not outside the bar).

The fact that you all don't get, or refuse to admit publicly that you get, why such behavior is perceived by many women as threatening, creepy, scary, repulsive etc. is to me appalling. Until that discussion I thought the reputation of this group was undeserved. Now I think the attitudes routinely on display here are hugely problematic.

You refused to acknowledge any counter arguments and labeled the guy a serial killer/rapist. If every guy who hits on a woman clumsily then goes his own way when she says no is a rapist then our jails are going to be awfully full. You didn't get, or refused to admit that you got, that obvious point.

[Warren DeMontague]

31. Also, an elevator is not a parking garage.

I mean, I suppose it could be an elevator IN a parking garage, which would be more sketchy, but this was an elevator in a hotel.

Comparing this to someone following someone to their car, late at night.. it's ridiculous. I really think the undercurrent in all of this is the attempt on the part of a small minority to define ALL male sexual energy as "problematic" at best.

[4th law of robotics]

32. Yeah he keeps changing the story

I'm not sure why he thinks he'll get away with that sort of thing.

It started "er . . um would you like to go to my room for coffee" in a hotel elevator that was promptly shot down and he went along his way.

Now it's "hey nice tits, wanna fuck?!?!" in a parking garage and he refused to take no for an answer, chasing after her.

Yeah that second one is pretty awful.

But it was never what was being discussed.

[4th law of robotics]

22. I'm curious as to your definition of flirting

since you considered an invitation to coffee to be akin to rape/murder.

[MadrasT]

8. On the other hand, I have never gotten "just a warning".

I always get the ticket. Maybe I don't show enough cleavage.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Well, I meant it when I said I'm a good driver, and careful. So it's been years since I've even been

pulled over, fortunately.

But it is entirely possible that in my unkempt, misspent youth, I did indeed suck at it.

[Warren Stupidity]

2. Imagine a world where being born male white and straight gave

One advantages over others not born with those qualities. Weird huh?

[Bonobo]

4. No, ummm, that's the regular world. What's your point, Warren?

You seem to be a little tongue-tied today. Want to try to make your point again (if you ever had one).

[Warren Stupidity]

5. I think the point is obvious.

[Bonobo]

6. Okay, nice job.

I wouldn't pick you for the debating team though.

I thought it would be a useful exercise to consider both the positives and the negatives that would come from being a woman in a world of men.

That is what I asked people to do.

You failed pretty miserable both in making any point as well as in imagining what it might be like.

Overall, I would give you a D minus for your post.

[ElboRuum]

35. D Minus?

I'd have given an F without a second thought.

He succeeded in avoiding every point of the exercise with that one.

[4th law of robotics]

12. Check your privilege!

Men are significantly more likely to:
die younger
die violently
die on the streets
die at their own hands
die of drug abuse
fail out of high school
not attend college
end up homeless
lose custody in a divorce
be mocked if ever the victim of violence/rape
receive harsher punishments for the same crime

And significantly less likely to:
have resources specifically dedicated to helping their gender
be given the benefit of the doubt in a he said she said situation
successful pursue a sexual harassment, sexual assault, or domestic violence charge.

All this male privilege is making me feel bad for everyone else. Let's share some of it.

[Warren Stupidity]

17. and there it is.

[4th law of robotics]

20. Do you disagree with any specific point

or just the conclusion that those stats do not a privileged class make?

/I think it's clear that if we were to substitute any other group other than men and apply that description only a bigot would say they are unfairly privileged.

[Warren Stupidity]

25. So you think you would be better off as a black lesbian woman?

[4th law of robotics]

28. I would say that if you're comparing men to women

men are not the privileged class that some claim.

And throwing in other qualifiers is a deliberate attempt to confuse the issue.

Would you be better off a gay male paraplegic or a straight female eskimo with a speech disorder?

As far as I know no objective value has been tied to those various qualifiers. So you can't simply add them up and see where you stand.

I can say objectively that by the standards which we often use to measure the success of various demographics (mortality especially preventable deaths, drug use, incarceration rates, suicide, homelessness, educational attainment, etc) men are doing worse than women.

Are short black women of exceptional intelligence doing better than white men of above average height but below average IQs? I don't know.

Are men in general doing worse on these metrics than women in general? Absolutely.

Do you dispute that or would you prefer go for poorly thought out misdirect attempt again?

[lumberjack_jeff]

34. Given the choice between that and being a gay black man, I'd choose the former.

She has a longer life, better education, less likelihood of being in jail, less likely to be a victim of violence, more money spent on her behalf for her health care.

In fact, assuming both are unmarried, she's better paid.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704421104575463790770831192.html

[rrneck]

9. Attractive people of both sexes have it easier.

Both sexes use what they've got for advantage. Pressing ones advantage to oppress or manipulate others is unacceptable behavior regardless of sex.

A beautiful woman can use her looks to use people, a wealthy man can do the same. A woman has to be born good looking, a physically weak man can still get rich. He doesn't have to be a great warrior, or even a towering genius. He only has to be a bigger asshole than the next guy. And when a woman competes in that context she has to be a "bitch". Both conditions have less to do with gender than with wealth and how we manage it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

10. Of course I would.

And of course women do, I often hear them bragging about it.

... just don't dare call it a form of privilege.

[Bonobo]

36. No, on a societal level, it certainly is not a privilege. However, on an individual level

in terms of the power dynamics between people, it certainly seems that being the "gatekeeper" that can additionally use sex or flirting as a power tool, it gives a great advantage to women.

So while we talk about "patriarchy", we should be a little more honest and admit that we live also in a world of rich vs. poor and that poor people, whether male or female, have little power.

But we, as individuals, navigate our lives on a vastly smaller scale than that. A scale where weapons and tools play roles in individual power dynamics. In such a war, men are relatively toothless.

[4th law of robotics]

13. It's human nature to use any advantage available

to the maximum.

So yeah. I'd abuse the hell out of that privilege.

[noamnety]

23. That's the nature of currying favor, isn't it?

Those without power suck up in whatever ways they have to those who hold power.

That might mean using looks, being servile, any number of things - but if you look at power dynamics, it's not usually the boss currying favor with the lower paid employees.

[MadrasT]

37. So you're saying...

...that in the existing world, men are manipulated by women who wear tight clothing or brush body parts up against them?

To me, that seems like a pretty bleak characterization of men as being weak and powerless victims of their sex drives.

Seriously?

I don't buy it.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

38. It's simply a variation of doing a favor for someone because they are nice

If someone is a nice, polite co-worker....you're more likely to go out of your way for them at work, right?

This is the same principle. Men, consciously or sub consciously, are more inclined to do something for a woman who leans in close enough so you can smell their perfume or shampoo or whatever, and probably give them the most pleasant moment at work they'll have all day.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. Doesn't do a damn thing for me.

[4th law of robotics]

40. Are you saying women don't wear tight clothing or brush their body parts up against men

to manipulate them? At least a few?

Men do the same thing: yeah I'm totally a doctor and I drive a Ferrari (it's in the shop . . . ).

Or: oh please tell me about that lady in the office that is totally out to get you. I can't believe she wore the same hat you did after talking about wearing that hat for like a week. This is very interesting to me.

I wouldn't use that to classify all women as weak victims of their own materialistic or emotional desires.

[lumberjack_jeff]

41. I'd say yes on all points. Including the bleak implications of that observation.

We are all "helpless" against the influence of the physiological and subconscious.