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Hal Bent

(59 posts)
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 04:28 AM Dec 2015

Bernie supporters could blow this election

Why refusing to vote for Hillary Clinton will only make everything worse

By Gary Legum

The political left has been tearing itself up of late with a rousing game of “Who Wants to Be the Most Liberal Liberal Ever To Liberal,” much in the same way it seems to each and every election cycle. The current battle, between supporters of Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, would be much more entertaining if the arguments for and against both campaigns weren’t variations on the same tired leftier-than-thou rhetoric and blind loyalty that were worn out even before Ralph Nader threw his rumpled corduroy blazer over his shoulder and slunk off into the humid Florida night.

I’ll get to some of those arguments in a minute, but first I’m going to pull on my old-man pants, hike the waist up to my armpits, shake my fist at some clouds, and share a couple of the strongest memories I have of the months leading up to the 2000 election, when I was a 26-year-old, semi-politically-aware liberalish Gen-X voter.

I recall a debate that year about whether true liberals should vote for Nader because, in his formulation, there was not a dime’s worth of difference between the two major-party candidates, Al Gore and George W. Bush. I recall email blasts from at least one acquaintance in a toss-up state trying to interest his friends in states that were safely for Gore in a voting trade of sorts, whereby one of us would cast our vote for Nader; in return, our friend would cast his vote for Gore. The thinking was that this would preserve a Democratic victory in both states while also registering liberal protests at the centrist drift of the party.

I recall spending the night before the election drinking in a P.F. Chang’s in Los Angeles with a group of friends, one of whom had brought along a reporter from the L.A. Daily News who planned on casting her vote the next day for Nader. There had been some vague concern over polls showing the race for California’s 54 electoral votes might be close, but she assured us all that this was not the case. California was safely in Gore’s column, so liberals might as well cast that protest vote.

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/02/bernie_supports_could_blow_this_election_why_refusing_to_vote_for_hillary_clinton_will_only_make_things_worse/

Yes, this is a couple of weeks old. But it's still true!

54 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Bernie supporters could blow this election (Original Post) Hal Bent Dec 2015 OP
DWS could blow this election. Her Third Way campaign have already cost us two more elections. Betty Karlson Dec 2015 #1
This message was self-deleted by its author deutsey Dec 2015 #3
. stonecutter357 Dec 2015 #11
That could be the figurehead of another lost election. Betty Karlson Dec 2015 #12
this is the Hillary Clinton (Group) . stonecutter357 Dec 2015 #14
No, she doesn't need to do anything such thing. Cha Dec 2015 #24
This is the Hillary group Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #19
This message was self-deleted by its author ronnykmarshall Dec 2015 #40
I printed out your post ronnykmarshall Dec 2015 #41
Why are you here trolling the Hillary Group? comradebillyboy Jan 2016 #51
They can't help themselves. BlueCaliDem Jan 2016 #52
I'm still pissed off about that shit. byronius Dec 2015 #2
+ a million! eom BlueMTexpat Dec 2015 #6
fucking A+ n/t fleabiscuit Dec 2015 #31
I was at a Gore rally in 2000 in LA ronnykmarshall Dec 2015 #42
Hey, byronius, stop holding yourself back and tell us how you REALLY feel! Hekate Dec 2015 #45
Here it comes, blaming the Bernie folks for not supporting Hillary. PFunk1 Dec 2015 #4
I am voting for Hillary Rodham Clinton.... stonecutter357 Dec 2015 #15
You are in the Hillary group, this isn't a forum, please respect and delete Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #16
Yes, you are right about that, I agree, but.. pangaia Dec 2015 #27
aren't we all Clinton at heart? stonecutter357 Dec 2015 #25
Hopefully Bernie wins the primaries so we won't have to worry about this issue. forsaken mortal Dec 2015 #5
Hopefully Hillary wins the primary so I don't have to vote of bernie. Cha Dec 2015 #18
Hopefully you'll go to the Bernie group ronnykmarshall Dec 2015 #43
Slam Dunk! the dork knight Jan 2016 #49
Dems need to Grow Up lobodons Dec 2015 #7
We are grown up. And we don't need to support whoever comes out of the process. PFunk1 Dec 2015 #8
O.K. thank you nader 2000 voters lobodons Dec 2015 #9
My biggest enemy is not the GOP, it is the 1% of both party affiliations FlatBaroque Dec 2015 #28
The gopropaganda big lie machine thanks you Cha Dec 2015 #47
starting to be annoying good. stonecutter357 Dec 2015 #13
This is the Hillary group. Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #17
Nah, it's all about you. Not thinking of the big picture. Not caring about our Planet. Cha Dec 2015 #20
Might consider dialing that back. Just saying. eom fleabiscuit Dec 2015 #32
Actually that's an incredibly childish position to take. MohRokTah Dec 2015 #34
How. Old. Are. You. Because if you don't remember and won't learn from the destruction wrought... Hekate Dec 2015 #46
I have lost friends Coolest Ranger Dec 2015 #10
I keep pretty quiet about supporting Hillary Ellen Forradalom Dec 2015 #22
Hillary is the best qualified candidate. Not voting in the GE allowed Thinkingabout Dec 2015 #21
Right? wildeyed Dec 2015 #23
Reality sucks: yallerdawg Dec 2015 #26
... Bryce Butler Dec 2015 #29
What does that childish meme even mean? n/t fleabiscuit Dec 2015 #33
Just pulling more shit out of their asses ronnykmarshall Dec 2015 #44
This has my vote for most politically ignorant post EVER. eom MohRokTah Dec 2015 #35
No, you and your crawling bug are not Welcome in Hillary's Group.. you have the whole Cha Dec 2015 #37
Please delete this stuff Coolest Ranger Dec 2015 #39
The extreme Left clearly has no understanding of how politics works. MohRokTah Dec 2015 #30
Eh, the majority will fall in line and vote when it matters Godhumor Dec 2015 #36
I'm really worried about this Coolest Ranger Dec 2015 #38
The BS jp-radicals don't have the numbers to make a difference either way. fleabiscuit Jan 2016 #48
They are so inconsequential, I don't worry about it. nt William769 Jan 2016 #50
They are trying a new tactic Coolest Ranger Jan 2016 #53
Not likely... brooklynite Jan 2016 #54
 

Betty Karlson

(7,231 posts)
1. DWS could blow this election. Her Third Way campaign have already cost us two more elections.
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 06:23 AM
Dec 2015

But please, be like Rahm and blame the left.

"Vote for Clinton or else..."

really a winning slogan you've got there. Lots of luck with the last 20th century campaign.

Response to Betty Karlson (Reply #1)

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
19. This is the Hillary group
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 09:17 AM
Dec 2015

This is a group, not a forum. Groups often serve as safe havens for members who share similar interests and viewpoints. Individuals who post messages contrary to a particular group's stated purpose can be excluded from posting in that group. For detailed information about this group and its purpose.

Response to Betty Karlson (Reply #1)

BlueCaliDem

(15,438 posts)
52. They can't help themselves.
Sun Jan 3, 2016, 03:26 AM
Jan 2016

Oh, when they're caught they'll give some stupid excuse, but then they keep posting, so that negates that excuse right off bat.

I swear! Sometimes they act like Tea Partiers.

byronius

(7,401 posts)
2. I'm still pissed off about that shit.
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 06:26 AM
Dec 2015

Fucking sneering young Green at Halloween party: 'Gore is just as bad if not worse than Bush. Let the Republicans have the country and then things will get so bad everyone will wake up and forge a new socialist paradise!'

Hey, it all worked out except for a lot of dead people and animals and trees and things, and, you know, all the things that got so much worse for every life form on the fucking planet.

Was it Camus that judged ideologies by how much death they were okay with?

Well, goddamn that fucking bullshit. This is serious fucking business, shoving human beings over the cliff for 'purity'. I bet that Green has some different opinions these days. I guarantee it. In fact, I read an article about a group of recalcitrant Nader voters that fucking suffered through every day of that fucking hell with ten thousand pounds of 'I was stupid' on their backs.

Sorry, but I had to raise children and run a small business through that fucking awful fucking Mordor hell -- we still have to deal with it every fucking day, my whole generation is fucking dying early of it, and PEOPLE STILL FUCKING PUSH THAT SHIT.

FUCK THAT SHIT.

I don't have a problem with Bernie. I have a problem with purity voters welcoming fucking Donald Trump into their soon to be extinct fucking lives.

ronnykmarshall

(35,356 posts)
42. I was at a Gore rally in 2000 in LA
Wed Dec 30, 2015, 11:02 PM
Dec 2015

while waiting in line we were infested by Nader and Bush supporters. I got in the Nader supporter's face and said "How much is Bush paying you?". He shut the up walked away. To this day, I will NEVER forgive Nader or his asshole supporters.

Hekate

(90,827 posts)
45. Hey, byronius, stop holding yourself back and tell us how you REALLY feel!
Thu Dec 31, 2015, 10:38 PM
Dec 2015

Because I share those feelings -- in spades. I was there, too.

PFunk1

(185 posts)
4. Here it comes, blaming the Bernie folks for not supporting Hillary.
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 06:46 AM
Dec 2015

Yeah it's old. But doing that will only harden bad feelings and make matters worse. Hey how about not trying to force a (to many) and unlikable and divisive candidate down our throats the next time.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
16. You are in the Hillary group, this isn't a forum, please respect and delete
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 09:09 AM
Dec 2015

This is a group, not a forum. Groups often serve as safe havens for members who share similar interests and viewpoints. Individuals who post messages contrary to a particular group's stated purpose can be excluded from posting in that group. For detailed information about this group and its purpose.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
27. Yes, you are right about that, I agree, but..
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 01:00 PM
Dec 2015

maybe include quotes when you quote something.. Oh BTW,, there is more to that quote that you missed that might be helpful..

My first comment in this group, as a Bernie supporter, was before I even realized it was a group, way back. I was then told of the rules.

 

the dork knight

(14 posts)
49. Slam Dunk!
Sat Jan 2, 2016, 02:28 PM
Jan 2016

If berniebots want to preach, they (it seems to me) have the entire website to sing his praises. (Have I committed blasphemy by not capitalizing the "h" in "him"?)

 

lobodons

(1,290 posts)
7. Dems need to Grow Up
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 06:53 AM
Dec 2015

Dems need to grow up and put their big boy pants on. Nothing wrong with a strong primary battle, but damn, real Dems need to support whoever comes out of the process. You know the GOP will do that and they are a zillion times more whackadoodle than the Dems!!

PFunk1

(185 posts)
8. We are grown up. And we don't need to support whoever comes out of the process.
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 06:59 AM
Dec 2015

That way is madness and could result in putting someone in possibly worse. So ditch the political ticking time bomb meme. It's now lost much of it's impact and is starting to be annoying.

 

lobodons

(1,290 posts)
9. O.K. thank you nader 2000 voters
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 07:10 AM
Dec 2015

for giving us 9-11, 2 wars, trillions of $$ wasted, thousands of American Innocent lives, Alito , Roberts and the Tea Party.

Jesus, this is not the time for the Dems to bitch between themselves. We need to go to war against the enemy: The GOP and Tea Party. Yes THEY are the enemy, not either Bernie or Hillary supporters.

FlatBaroque

(3,160 posts)
28. My biggest enemy is not the GOP, it is the 1% of both party affiliations
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 10:06 PM
Dec 2015

I also consider pimps for the 1% to be bigger enemies than the GOP.

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
17. This is the Hillary group.
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 09:15 AM
Dec 2015

This is a group, not a forum. Groups often serve as safe havens for members who share similar interests and viewpoints. Individuals who post messages contrary to a particular group's stated purpose can be excluded from posting in that group. For detailed information about this group and its purpose.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
34. Actually that's an incredibly childish position to take.
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 12:52 AM
Dec 2015

It demonstrates a lack of knowledge about how politics works and smacks of taking your ball and going home from the kindergarten playground.

Hekate

(90,827 posts)
46. How. Old. Are. You. Because if you don't remember and won't learn from the destruction wrought...
Thu Dec 31, 2015, 10:42 PM
Dec 2015

...by BushCheney, then I have nothing to say to you.

By the way, this is the Hillary Clinton Group. Bernie's Group is thataway <----

Coolest Ranger

(2,034 posts)
10. I have lost friends
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 08:30 AM
Dec 2015

because I won't bow to Bernie supporters. I'm so fed up with the division. I'm so fed up with being told Hillary supporters are the problem. I'm burned out and scared to death

Ellen Forradalom

(16,160 posts)
22. I keep pretty quiet about supporting Hillary
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 09:29 AM
Dec 2015

amongst my friends because they are all Bernie supporters. And I've heard some pretty bad internalized misogyny from some: "I want a woman president but not THAT WOMAN."

Thinkingabout

(30,058 posts)
21. Hillary is the best qualified candidate. Not voting in the GE allowed
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 09:27 AM
Dec 2015

Republicans in the midterms got us a Republican Congress, not good for Democratic ideas. There is not one Republican running I would like to see as president. The ideas they are saying are terrible. We need to elect Democrats everywhere. They want to kill Social Security and many more programs used and appreciated by Democrats.

wildeyed

(11,243 posts)
23. Right?
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 10:02 AM
Dec 2015

People have short memories.

And the thing about democracy, if your candidate is more liberal (or conservative) that 98% of the voters, you might have trouble convincing them to vote for your guy (or gal). The deck is not stacked against you, it's how DEMOCRACY works. It does not follow that because your candidate lost due to being far out of the mainstream on views and policy, that ALL the other candidates are the same.

People are salty right now. And I think Bernie Sanders is a better person than Nader, too. He has strong views and is willing to fight for them, but I don't think his ego is so titanic that he is going to take his ball and go home because if he doesn't win it all. Hillary was not at her finest toward the end of her last primary, either. But she did put her big girl pants on eventually, got back in the game for the right side.

yallerdawg

(16,104 posts)
26. Reality sucks:
Sun Dec 20, 2015, 12:53 PM
Dec 2015
The Democratic Party may be moving back to the left, but don’t be fooled into thinking the prominence of Sanders or Elizabeth Warren signals an imminent major shift. The party is still a long way from consolidating around the type of liberalism that those figures represents. (If it wasn’t, Hillary wouldn’t be crushing Sanders by better than 20 points among Democratic voters in national polls.) And while the presidential election is certainly important, Sanders getting into the Oval Office is not a panacea for right-wing governance. There is the House and Senate, to say nothing of all the state legislatures and governor’s mansions where Republicans are enjoying the largest electoral successes they have had at just about any time in history. There is a limit to how many liberals in down-ballot races a Democratic presidential candidate will drag along with him or her in 2016. Hell, first you have to find some liberals to run in many places.

Cha

(297,692 posts)
37. No, you and your crawling bug are not Welcome in Hillary's Group.. you have the whole
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 01:41 AM
Dec 2015

board to push sanders and the giant graphic.

I don't think the BS supporters who aren't going to vote for Hillary when she wins are going to "blow this election". They aren't enough of them who don't care about Our Planet.

Coolest Ranger

(2,034 posts)
39. Please delete this stuff
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 08:16 AM
Dec 2015

we don't go into your group and post Hillary stuff don't come in ours posting this. Delete this please

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
30. The extreme Left clearly has no understanding of how politics works.
Sun Dec 27, 2015, 08:54 PM
Dec 2015

Sadly, the extreme right has a good understanding and they will still hold their noses and vote for the Republican.

The Extreme Left is all about unicorns and rainbows.

This is why the Democratic Party has no choice but to consider the Extreme LEft an unreliable voting block and must constantly move to the right.

2016 will be no different. Should the Democratic nominee lose the presidential race, there will be no other choice but to jettison the views of the extreme Left and move to the right. Reliable votes are the only way to victory and so long as the Extreme Left proves itself to be childish with no clear understanding of how politics functions, their views will get no traction within our political system.

Godhumor

(6,437 posts)
36. Eh, the majority will fall in line and vote when it matters
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 01:15 AM
Dec 2015

Thankfully, the nomination will be wrapped up so early this cycle that they will have time to get all the poutrage out before working to keep the Republicans out of the White House.

Coolest Ranger

(2,034 posts)
38. I'm really worried about this
Mon Dec 28, 2015, 08:15 AM
Dec 2015

Thirty percent of the vote could make the difference in a lot of states especially in republican controlled states. they need to chill out and get with the program

fleabiscuit

(4,542 posts)
48. The BS jp-radicals don't have the numbers to make a difference either way.
Fri Jan 1, 2016, 01:33 AM
Jan 2016

It's an insignificant percentage of an insignificant percentage, as someone might put it.

Coolest Ranger

(2,034 posts)
53. They are trying a new tactic
Mon Jan 4, 2016, 06:22 PM
Jan 2016

If Bernie doesn't get the nomination a few are urging his supporters to write his name in. This worries me

brooklynite

(94,738 posts)
54. Not likely...
Tue Jan 5, 2016, 09:47 PM
Jan 2016

There's a lot of chest-thumping going on, but remember that DU isn't reflective of the real world Democratic voter, and neither are most of the "activists" with a blog page to post on. Clinton will pull more Democrats than Barack Obama did in his first election, as well as a decent share of moderate independents and suburban Republicans.

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