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eridani

(51,907 posts)
Thu Oct 25, 2012, 04:13 AM Oct 2012

Washington Policy Center shilling for all ballots to be received by Election Day again

We need to nip this disenfranchisement bullshit in the bud.

https://www.washingtonpolicy.org/comment/reply/6224#comment-form

There are only two possible reasons for advocating that ballots be received by Election Day.

1. You are too mentally deficient to understand that the rate-limiting step for all mail-in voting is signature validation, not tabulation. Even with increasing rates of early voting, elections departments are generally well behind on this task on Election Day, even in states that require that ballots be received by Election Day.

2. You explicitly intend to disenfranchise as many voters as possible.

I certainly trust slower results with maximum enfranchisement over faster results with maximum disenfranchisement. My distrust of the process increases exponentially as the number of ballots not counted increases. Do you want me to distrust you even more? Just tell me that you refuse to even inform me whether or not my ballot was counted.

If you want faster results, advocate for the return of a poll voting option. Another factor that slows tabulation is the necessity for elections department workers to duplicate ballots that have been corrected according to instructions or damaged in the mail. Poll voters can vote a new ballot on the spot if the tabulator rejects their ballot for some reason, a much faster process.

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Washington Policy Center shilling for all ballots to be received by Election Day again (Original Post) eridani Oct 2012 OP
I think it should be changed.. Upton Oct 2012 #1
Yes, and it sucks. It DISENFRANCHISES people. eridani Oct 2012 #2
Again..I don't see a problem.. Upton Oct 2012 #3
Are you deliberately trying to not understand that people have no control-- eridani Oct 2012 #4
Disenfranchising Democrats, huh? Upton Oct 2012 #5
Democratic voters tend to vote later. Without the late vote, Rick Larsen would have lost in 2010 eridani Oct 2012 #6
You continue to ignore my question.. Upton Oct 2012 #7
Read the damn article--without the late voters, we'd have a Repuke state legislature eridani Oct 2012 #8
A Republican state legislature? Upton Oct 2012 #9
I do not think very highly about people being disenfranchised by the Post Office eridani Oct 2012 #10
Secret of Oregon's faster tabulation revealed in the 11/10 Saturday Seattle Times! eridani Nov 2012 #11
I'd be in trouble along with a number of other people I know by that method. freshwest Nov 2012 #12
Report from The Stranger eridani Nov 2012 #13
In other words..more from Goldy.. Upton Nov 2012 #14
How can we ever know that if OR refuses to say how many ballots are uncounted in which districts? eridani Nov 2012 #15
I'm still waiting.. Upton Nov 2012 #16
You are just being irrational, and cheering for voter disenfranchisement and sloppy process eridani Nov 2012 #17
I'm cheering for voter disenfranchisement? Upton Nov 2012 #18
OR refuses to publicize the number of rejected ballots eridani Nov 2012 #19

Upton

(9,709 posts)
1. I think it should be changed..
Thu Oct 25, 2012, 06:17 PM
Oct 2012

Doesn't Oregon have the law that all ballots need to be returned by election day? I don't see a problem. I'm tired of waiting a up to week or so for the full results to come in.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
2. Yes, and it sucks. It DISENFRANCHISES people.
Fri Oct 26, 2012, 05:02 AM
Oct 2012
http://horsesass.org/?p=22275 (from 2009)

As can be seen, 452,522 ballots were received by election day, roughly 76% of the total number cast. Yet only 254,261 were counted by the end of the day… barely more than the total number of ballots in hand the Friday prior to the election.

The bulk of the remainder of the ballots cast arrived the next day, with 572,611 in hand at KCE, or over 96% of the total number cast. Yet only 308,650 of these were counted by the end of Wednesday.

There are several obvious lessons to learn from the data. The first is that KCE can’t keep pace with the ballots it is already receiving, thus any delay in reporting returns is due not to a lack of ballots, but rather a lack of capacity to process them. This is true in Oregon as well, which typically reports only 50% of total votes by the first ballot drop election night, not much better than King County, and generally somewhat worse than Washington state as a whole.

That said, even the 43% of total votes reported by KCE on election night was a large enough sample to accurately project the winner in all but a handful of the hundreds of contests countywide. Candidates and voters do know the winners on election night, at least in the vast majority of races.

<snip>

Yes, it would be nice to get near complete results on election night the way most other states do, and the way we used to get here in Washington state before mail-in ballots started to dominate our voting, but this is the nature of mail-in elections. It takes time and resources to sort, process and verify signatures just in preparation for counting, and so we’ll never approach the sort of election night returns the likes of Reed, Gov. Gregoire and the Seattle Times editorial board apparently want. They sure don’t do it Oregon, even with their received by deadline.

Personally, I’d rather we get the count right, than fast. And I’m not sure I’m willing spend the extra money necessary to do both, let alone disenfranchise tens of thousands of late voters in the process.


http://horsesass.org/?p=31043

With a peak processing capacity of little more than 75,000 ballots a day, the 373,941 ballots King County tallied on Tuesday night barely exceeded the 349,670 ballots it had received as of the Friday before the election. Indeed, by the time the elections center opened its doors Monday morning, its staff had already fallen hopelessly behind. (And FYI, the same was true in 2009.)

So how would following the Oregon model speed things up? Well, on its own, it wouldn’t, and to understand why, we need merely look at the ballot return statistics for Oregon’s largest county, Multnomah, where even with its more restrictive deadline, only 45 percent of ballots were returned by the Friday before the election… nearly the exact same percentage as King County. Both counties received more than half of their ballots over the final few days of the election, the only difference being that Multnomah’s election was one day shorter. (Far from being the long, drawn out process Reed implies, over 98% of valid Washington ballots are received by the day after the election.)

Well then, how does Multnomah County manage to report results so much faster? Simple: they put more resources into it. Multnomah County processes ballots over the weekend before the election, while King County does not. And while King County reports a single election night return a little after 8 PM, before heading home for the night, Multnomah County continues to process ballots overnight, issuing subsequent reports at 8 AM and throughout the next day. Of course, King could duplicate Multnomah’s efforts, but that would cost money.

Upton

(9,709 posts)
3. Again..I don't see a problem..
Fri Oct 26, 2012, 10:21 AM
Oct 2012

I mean, who exactly would be disenfranchised by changing the deadline....people who are too lazy or too disinterested to get their ballots in the mail or to a drop box in time? I don't know about you, but I've already voted. If someone can't even be bothered to meet a simple well publicized deadline, they weren't that invested in voting to begin with..

And if it takes a little bit of extra money in King or wherever to get things right..so be it.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
4. Are you deliberately trying to not understand that people have no control--
Fri Oct 26, 2012, 06:29 PM
Oct 2012

--over their ballots once they are dropped off? The disenfranchised are those that the post office inadvertantly fucks over. A postmark is EVIDENCE that you put the ballot in the box early enough.

And where do you suggest that elections departments get the extra money for more signature verifiers? This requires very extensive training, unlike running the tabulators.

Only the mentally defective think that a reception deadline increases the speed of tabulation. The bills mandating this originate with Republicans, for the specific purpose of disenfranchising Democrats.

Upton

(9,709 posts)
5. Disenfranchising Democrats, huh?
Fri Oct 26, 2012, 07:04 PM
Oct 2012

You mean like in BLUE Oregon? Perhaps you'd like to show me all the disenfranchised Democrats or all the offices an election day deadline has cost the party there..I'm sure you're just full of examples..

If Oregon can handle it, so can we. I don't see this as a partisan issue. Voter ID laws..sure, but not this..

eridani

(51,907 posts)
6. Democratic voters tend to vote later. Without the late vote, Rick Larsen would have lost in 2010
Fri Oct 26, 2012, 09:00 PM
Oct 2012

This is the transcript to a KUOW News report. To listen to to the link http://kuow.org/program.php?id=21821 and hit the MP3 HI button.

Late Voters Help Democrats Keep Control Of State Legislature
Deborah Wang
11/09/2010

Democratic Congressman Rick Larsen has declared victory in the 2nd Congressional District. After yesterday's ballot count, Larsen now leads Republican challenger John Koster by more than 5,000 votes. Koster has not yet conceded the race. Koster had held a nearly 1,400 vote lead on Election night. But that soon evaporated as late voters favored Democrat Larsen. Democratic candidates for state Legislature also benefited from the late surge in Democratic voting. KUOW's Deborah Wang reports.

TRANSCRIPT
Kevin Haistings is a Seattle police officer and a Republican making his first run for elected office. He's challenging Democratic State Representative Roger Goodman in the 45th district on the Eastside. When the first results were posted on election night, Haistings was ahead by more than 600 votes. But by Friday of last week the Republican's lead had evaporated.

Haistings: "We led the first three days and on the last count the numbers changed. A lot of people want to give you theories and conjectures, but at the end of the day you just have to kind of wait and see what the final totals are going to be."

Since then Republican Haistings has lost even more ground. He now trails by more than 900 votes. That same dynamic played out in races across the state. On election night Democrats were either tied or trailing in about a dozen legislative races. But in five of those races, late votes helped put the Democrats over the top.

Pelz: "You know, it was a Republican year and we survived the storm."

Dwight Pelz is the chairman of the state's Democratic Party. He says it took a while, but Democratic voters finally realized that Democratic candidates were in trouble.

Pelz: "One–third of the chambers nationwide that were Democrat went Republican. And in Washington state, we maintained significant majorities in both the House and Senate. We're sorry to see some fine Democrats lose, but we are still the party that controls the House and Senate."

Democrats may have survived the wave, but they are not unscathed. Republicans will likely pick up a total of eight seats in the Legislature, leaving 57 Democrats to 41 Republicans in the House, and 27 Democrats to 22 Republicans in the Senate.

Chris Vance is a public affairs consultant and a former state Republican Party chairman. He says Republicans prevailed mostly by unseating freshman legislators, or by winning open seats. They did not succeed against what he calls entrenched incumbents.

Vance: "For Republicans, I think they should be disappointed they didn't pick up more. But they should be cheered by the fact that the past two elections Republicans have won back seven seats in the suburbs. And that's what they've got to do — they've got to keep chipping away and winning back legislative districts in the Puget Sound suburbs, and that will get them back into majorities. But clearly it didn't come in one fell swoop this year."

In many key races Vance says Republicans picked up a greater percentage of votes than they did in the last election.

None of these results are final yet. The Secretary of State's office says there are more than 230,000 ballots to be processed. And there's at least one race that is still a toss–up — Democratic state representative Dawn Morrell leads her Republican opponent by just 85 votes.

Note---that 230K backlog is due to SIGNATURE PROCESSING slowness. It has jackshit to do with ballots trickling in a few days after election day.

Upton

(9,709 posts)
7. You continue to ignore my question..
Sat Oct 27, 2012, 10:07 AM
Oct 2012

so we'll try again. In Oregon, since they've instituted mail in voting along with your dreaded election day deadline, they've voted Democrat in every presidential election and currently boast a Democratic governor and two senators. In other words, despite the deadline, they've remained reliably blue.

I think you'll agree Oregon's demographics are similar to those of Washington state. Just where are all those disenfranchised Democrats you speak of?

I'm still waiting for you to provide examples from the state of Oregon demonstrating their election day deadline is hurting the Democratic party there..

eridani

(51,907 posts)
8. Read the damn article--without the late voters, we'd have a Repuke state legislature
Sat Oct 27, 2012, 11:47 PM
Oct 2012

--and a Repuke representative in CD-2. You have pointed out not one single advantage of getting ballots in by election day. The backlog of unvalidated signatures is exactly the same in the largest counties of both states. So why should we change?

Upton

(9,709 posts)
9. A Republican state legislature?
Sun Oct 28, 2012, 09:43 AM
Oct 2012

That's a ridiculous argument..you're taking races run under the present law and applying a election day deadline to them. I may not be a Mensa member ..but c'mon.

Those same "late voters" you're harping on, were actually not late at all..for presumably their ballots were postmarked by election day for them to still be counted. By the same token, somehow I think if the deadline was moved up a couple days, those same voters would still manage to follow the law and get their ballots to the proper locations by the required date. Just as they were able to make the transition to mail in voting, just as voters deal with election day Tuesday falling on different dates depending upon the year..

Do you honestly think so little of your fellow Democratic voters that if the deadline was moved up to election day they'd be unable to cope?

Again, I'm still waiting for you to provide examples from the state of Oregon demonstrating their election day deadline has worked to the detriment of the Democratic party there..

eridani

(51,907 posts)
10. I do not think very highly about people being disenfranchised by the Post Office
Mon Oct 29, 2012, 04:12 AM
Oct 2012

You can control when you put it in the box--you can't control what happens to it after that. A postmark is solid evidence, with no equivalent in noting receipt.

Can't find any info at all on what OR does with ballots whose signatures didn't get validated. You may be disenfranchised without even knowing about it. In WA, it used to be the practice to just store and not count such ballots. After the very close gubernatorial race in 2004, a law was passed (by a Democratic legislature) mandating that elections departments contact voters with invalid signatures once by mail and twice by phone. This process takes time, but it ensures maximum enfranchisement.

Still waiting for you to tell me why receipt of ballots by election day helps the process in any way whatsoever, given that elections departments are far behind in signature validations by that day in both states. So OR can stay blue even with disenfranchisement. Big fucking del.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
11. Secret of Oregon's faster tabulation revealed in the 11/10 Saturday Seattle Times!
Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:57 AM
Nov 2012

They use electronic signature matching, which Kign County Elections has REJECTED as being too inaccurate to trust!

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
12. I'd be in trouble along with a number of other people I know by that method.
Sun Nov 11, 2012, 03:35 PM
Nov 2012

Because I, and two other persons I know well, and countless others, have signatures that no longer match our previous ones, due to disability. My current signature is more of a scrawl, but when I first signed up to vote, it was almost print letter quality although cursive. Easy to read each letter. So I'm not in favor of that.

I give my cell phone number on the ballot and if they have any problem, they are welcome to call me to verify that I sent in my ballot. Or at least I was, now I may be called by some GOP crook.

We now have a GOP/Teahadist Secretary of State, and another on the State Supreme Court, so I expect attacks on ballot integrity and attempts to disenfranchise voters from now on out. This is not going to be easy to overcome.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
13. Report from The Stranger
Sat Nov 17, 2012, 01:56 AM
Nov 2012
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/shut-up-shut-up-shut-up/Content?oid=15280190

Oregon's largest county, Multnomah, recorded 55 percent turnout on the Monday before the election—comparable to King County's 52 percent, Kitsap County's 58 percent, Pierce County's 57 percent, and so on. In both states, about 70 percent of ballots cast are received by the day before the election. The difference is that Oregon receives the remainder of its ballots by Election Day, while 98 percent of Washington's ballots are received by the day after.

So how does Oregon manage to count its ballots faster? It doesn't. It just keeps counting. Both King and Multnomah tallied about 60 percent of ballots cast shortly after the polls closed Tuesday night. But Multnomah released additional returns at 8:55 p.m., 10:26 p.m., 12:09 a.m., 3:48 a.m., 8:23 a.m., 12:02 p.m., and 4:56 p.m. That's the equivalent of three additional shifts in the span King County ran one.

Washington could work its elections staff the way Oregon does, but to what end? Only 9 percent of voters said they were "dissatisfied" with the pace of returns in a recent KCE survey. After all, a 60 percent election night return is a pretty big statistical sample, leaving very few races too close to call.

Upton

(9,709 posts)
14. In other words..more from Goldy..
Sat Nov 17, 2012, 10:04 AM
Nov 2012

I'm still waiting for you or Goldy to show me one office an election day deadline has cost the Democratic party in Oregon..

eridani

(51,907 posts)
15. How can we ever know that if OR refuses to say how many ballots are uncounted in which districts?
Sun Nov 18, 2012, 08:44 AM
Nov 2012

I see you think that inaccurate signature validation is the most wonderful thing because it speeds the process up so much.

Upton

(9,709 posts)
16. I'm still waiting..
Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:36 AM
Nov 2012

please show me one election Oregon's deadline has cost the Democratic party there...and I'm not talking about some obscure reference or excuse like "How can we ever know that if OR refuses to say how many ballots are uncounted in which districts?"...give me a break.

I commented on this same subject over at HA the other day. Asked the same question about Oregon too...got the same non answer as well. You and opponents of any change to an election day deadline have no solid argument here and you know it. Otherwise, you wouldn't be relying on speculation and guesswork, you'd be supplying examples of disfranchised Democratic voters from Oregon.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
17. You are just being irrational, and cheering for voter disenfranchisement and sloppy process
Sun Nov 18, 2012, 10:58 AM
Nov 2012

Late voters are Democratic voters--well known and beyond dispute. OR uses a shitty inaccurate method for signature validation just because it's faster--disenfranchising who knows how many. According to you, sloppiness + speed + disenfranchisement is a wonderful thing.

OR is STILL way behind in tabulation on Election Day, another indisputable fact. If they can't even count the ballots they already have, there is no conceivable reason to require that they be returned by Election Day.

Just about all of the people in WA State advocating return by Election Day in WA State are Republicans. Why do you suppose that is?

The Dem House is never going to let any bill proposing this change out of committee, so why don't you just STFU? Only 9% of WA State voters are dissatisfied with tabulation speed, so why not just give up?

BTW, I'm busy on weekends hunting for likely Dem voters with no signature match in LD 47, where one House race is still up for grabs. We take signature cards for them to sign and take those back to the Elections Department. If the Dem wins, it will be because WA State is more interested in maximising the franchise than in getting the counting over with as fast as possible.

Upton

(9,709 posts)
18. I'm cheering for voter disenfranchisement?
Sun Nov 18, 2012, 11:12 AM
Nov 2012

I'll ask again for what seems like the 100th time..show me those disenfranchised voters in Oregon or show me an election lost because of the election day deadline there. It's very simple, you can get me to "STFU" all you want...just give me what I requested. Until you do so, your argument cannot be taken seriously as it's based on nothing but supposition.

Btw, just because you perceive the majority of those advocating for moving up the deadline are Republicans does not automatically make it wrong. An example of such would be Baumgartner's stance on I-502 as opposed to that of Cantwell...

eridani

(51,907 posts)
19. OR refuses to publicize the number of rejected ballots
Mon Nov 19, 2012, 01:50 AM
Nov 2012

Without that info, no one can say anything about harm done to Democrats. In WA State, it's very, very clear--late voters result in Dem wins that would not otherwise have occurred.

Democrats in the state legislature know this perfectly well, and will fight attempts to change the ballot deadline.

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