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(7,234 posts)
Mon Dec 15, 2014, 11:42 PM Dec 2014

Police Shoot, Kill 80-Year-Old Man In His Own Bed, Don't Find the Drugs They Were Looking For

In the early morning hours of June 27, 2013, a team of Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department deputies pulled up to the home of Eugene Mallory, an 80-year-old retired engineer living in the rural outskirts of Los Angeles county with his wife Tonya Pate and stepson Adrian Lamos.

The deputies crashed through the front gate and began executing a search warrant for methamphetamine on the property. Detective Patrick Hobbs, a self-described narcotics expert who claimed he "smelled the strong odor of chemicals" downwind from the house after being tipped off to illegal activity from an anonymous informant, spearheaded the investigation.

The deputies announced their presence, and Pate emerged from the trailer where she'd been sleeping to escape the sweltering summer heat of the California desert. Lamos and a couple of friends emerged from another trailer, and a handyman tinkering with a car on the property also gave himself up without resistance. But Mallory, who preferred to sleep in the house, was nowhere to be seen.

Deputies approached the house, and what happened next is where things get murky. The deputies said they announced their presence upon entering and were met in the hallway by the 80-year-old man, wielding a gun and stumbling towards them. The deputies later changed the story when the massive bloodstains on Mallory's mattress indicated to investigators that he'd most likely been in bed at the time of the shooting. Investigators also found that an audio recording of the incident revealed a discrepancy in the deputies' original narrative: Before listening to the audio recording, [Sgt. John] Bones believed that he told Mallory to "Drop the gun" prior to the shooting. The recording revealed, however, that his commands to "Drop the gun" occurred immediately after the shooting.

When it was all over, Eugene Mallory died of six gunshot wounds from Sgt. John Bones' MP-5 9mm submachine gun. When a coroner arrived, he found the loaded .22 caliber pistol the two deputies claimed Mallory had pointed at them on the bedside table.

Mallory had not fired of a single shot. The raid turned up no evidence of methamphetamine on the property.
52 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Police Shoot, Kill 80-Year-Old Man In His Own Bed, Don't Find the Drugs They Were Looking For (Original Post) 951-Riverside Dec 2014 OP
My heart hurts Contrary1 Dec 2014 #1
The US is getting totally out of control with these Gestapo cops running around. If the states RKP5637 Dec 2014 #2
Unreal! mimi85 Dec 2014 #16
Well, a stun grenade, thrown by a cop, Unknown Beatle Dec 2014 #20
That baby was a known threat and drug user. Enthusiast Dec 2014 #25
On facebook, I am becoming aware of the many, many incidents so close to this duhneece Dec 2014 #21
They remind me of the SS during WWII and none seem willing to get it under control and from RKP5637 Dec 2014 #23
And the homeless, mentally ill, transpeople, intoxicated persons Dont call me Shirley Dec 2014 #41
+ 1 demigoddess Dec 2014 #33
They are trying to accomplish exactly what's happening in my opinion. stillwaiting Dec 2014 #40
Yep! Agree! Pretty much what I see going on too. n/t RKP5637 Dec 2014 #42
WTF?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! tblue Dec 2014 #3
...nt Mnemosyne Dec 2014 #4
No Need To Waste Time With A Grand Jury SoCalMusicLover Dec 2014 #5
This is disgusting. oldandhappy Dec 2014 #6
Yet, attempt suicide and you will get committed in California. Trillo Dec 2014 #7
Most suicides are cries for help NOT a desire to die happyslug Dec 2014 #37
It's tied together in the cops power, that of life or death. Trillo Dec 2014 #49
Actually the Police power is limited to taking the person to the local psychotric hospital. happyslug Dec 2014 #51
Nobody was ever charged? n/t doc03 Dec 2014 #8
Police academy jamejest Dec 2014 #9
That would be a start.... Historic NY Dec 2014 #28
Si vis pacem, para bellum, is an old Latin saying and it means train and prepare happyslug Dec 2014 #43
Monstrous, Simply Monstrous! Hockey Dad Dec 2014 #10
Offhand it sounds pretty damning for the cops especially cstanleytech Dec 2014 #11
Well, seems like things are never damning enough to prosecute the cops. Laffy Kat Dec 2014 #12
The cops murdered Eric Garner on video and got off nichomachus Dec 2014 #31
So did the guys who attacked Reginald Denny which just proves cstanleytech Dec 2014 #50
WTF?! sakabatou Dec 2014 #13
Jesus Christ, not again. catbyte Dec 2014 #14
Jezus Fucking Christ. When is this going to stop? Matariki Dec 2014 #15
Never. DeSwiss Dec 2014 #19
That photo is truly disturbing. WTF!!??? Dark n Stormy Knight Dec 2014 #52
"Discrepancy" . . . "Discrepancy" . . . It is not "Discrepancy," it is LIES! NBachers Dec 2014 #17
Thanks for posting the reminder-original thread on this azurnoir Dec 2014 #18
More drug war insanity by.... blackspade Dec 2014 #22
Well that police shooting sounds entirely justified. Enthusiast Dec 2014 #24
'"smelled the strong odor of chemicals" downwind' Trillo Dec 2014 #26
Very sad, indeed! Johnny Rash Dec 2014 #27
Cops use planted guns in this situation Demsrule86 Dec 2014 #29
The boiling frog syndrome Zoftig1 Dec 2014 #32
An MP-5 9mm submachine gun?! Metro135 Dec 2014 #30
Can we get a link to the article? hootinholler Dec 2014 #34
Click the video, its in the video's description 951-Riverside Dec 2014 #38
Some of us are behind firewalls during the day hootinholler Dec 2014 #39
I could not even believe the headline of this post. Good grief. Paper Roses Dec 2014 #35
Why didn't the cops just plant some drugs and call it good? pokerfan Dec 2014 #36
FTP Agony Dec 2014 #44
I hate cops more and more every day, really sad, isn't it. OverBurn Dec 2014 #45
drug PROHIBITION is making us stupid. pansypoo53219 Dec 2014 #46
Better safe than sorry ! nt eppur_se_muova Dec 2014 #47
Make it stop. Please, Make It STOP! Demeter Dec 2014 #48


(67,086 posts)
2. The US is getting totally out of control with these Gestapo cops running around. If the states
Mon Dec 15, 2014, 11:55 PM
Dec 2014

can't do it, then the federal gov. needs to step in, but they seem to like supplying them with arms. Just WTF are we trying to accomplish?


(1,805 posts)
16. Unreal!
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 02:39 AM
Dec 2014

This is just what I said to my husband. WTF is going on? Not enough young black men? Now they're killing old men? What next - babies in their cribs? Pregnant women? I feel nauseous - I seriously feel sick to my stomach! Enough already!!!

Unknown Beatle

(2,672 posts)
20. Well, a stun grenade, thrown by a cop,
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 07:36 AM
Dec 2014

almost killed a baby in his crib earlier this year.

That scumbag cop in the video is a fucking liar.


(4,110 posts)
21. On facebook, I am becoming aware of the many, many incidents so close to this
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 08:22 AM
Dec 2014

I now get 'Cop Block' notices (when I 'joined'? 'liked'?) them (I am low tech)...I pushed for a Citizen Review Board in our city (Alamogordo, NM), but now realize the lack of 'teeth' to this group once it formed. They meet, discuss issues, then take them up with the police chief-not any real accountability. So now I may have to add yet another meeting to my schedule, may have to become a demanding voice when I thought I could count it a victory of sorts.


(67,086 posts)
23. They remind me of the SS during WWII and none seem willing to get it under control and from
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 09:02 AM
Dec 2014

the gov., they seem to get a nod it's all OK. It's all getting really weird. I used to think it was a few, but it seems now it's a lot.


(3,795 posts)
40. They are trying to accomplish exactly what's happening in my opinion.
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 05:57 PM
Dec 2014

They are furthering the divide between the public and the police force. They've been doing a brilliant job of it, and the job continues every day.

We'll have to take back control of our government from the oligarchy if we are to ever begin to turn things back around.

They are creating a state that will support the tremendously unequal society that they clearly want and have succeeded in creating, as they continue to work towards an even more obscenely unequal society with ZERO care or concern for 90% of Americans' well-being.


(16,350 posts)
3. WTF?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mon Dec 15, 2014, 11:57 PM
Dec 2014

POOR MAN! What a system we have. Drugs are illegal when they are most always a victimless crime. Guns you can get anywhere just about no matter what. And because guns are so prevalent, cops are scared shitless and shoot before saying word one.

I am beside myself. Oh, this is just too freaking much.

SUE that sheriff department and send that idiot KILLER to prison. There has to be a price paid, and I don't mean just money.

Sending love and deep sympathy to that poor family. DAMN IT!



(3,194 posts)
5. No Need To Waste Time With A Grand Jury
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 12:04 AM
Dec 2014

He's a cop, so this killing is therefore justified.

I have no doubt the pig feared for his life.


(9,154 posts)
7. Yet, attempt suicide and you will get committed in California.
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 12:30 AM
Dec 2014

No "Death with dignity" in California.

Depending on the facts and circumstances of a specific effort, authorities will often file a Sec 5150:
CA Welfare and Institutions Code § 5150 (Lanterman–Petris–Short Act - "LPS&quot allows a qualified officer or clinician to involuntarily confine a person deemed to have a mental disorder that makes him or her a danger to self, a danger to others, and/or gravely disabled. A qualified officer, which includes any California peace officer, as well as any specifically designated county clinician, can request the confinement after signing a written declaration.



(14,779 posts)
37. Most suicides are cries for help NOT a desire to die
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 03:43 PM
Dec 2014

Last edited Tue Dec 16, 2014, 08:12 PM - Edit history (1)

I know "Death with Dignity" is all the rage right now, but such suicides are quite rare even where it is legal. The vast majority of suicides are cries for help, such as threatening to jump off a bridge, pointing a gun at one's head, or even taking poison and shooting one's self. Thus bringing up "Death with Dignity" in this discussion is bringing up an otherwise irrelevant subject.

But since you have brought up Suicides, remember what these laws are in regards to suicides are aim at. Such laws are NOT aimed at "death with dignity" but the 90% of suicides related to Mental illness. Where "Death with Dignity" Suicides are permitted, it is with a doctor's agreement that the person seeking death will die anyway. It is NOT for otherwise healthy people and NOT for people with mental problems, who do 90% of all suicides.

The rate of suicides have been constant, with the only recent increase is for people 45 to 64. These tend to be healthy people who lost their job and do to age discrimination can NOT find another one and are jobless and broke for the first time in their lives. A similar pattern occurred in the 1990s in Russia, since 2000 and the Russia stable economy since 1999, that rate has fallen in Russia but has increased in the US:


baby boomers have had a higher rate in suicide then any previous AND subsequent generation. Hitting middle age men more then any other group (Middle age being defined as 45 to 64).


Suicides increase 30% in Kansas, as Kansas cut mental health treatment:


More than 90% of people who take their own life have at least one and often more than one treatable mental illness such as depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia and/or alcohol and substance abuse. With better recognition and treatment many suicides can be prevented.



(9,154 posts)
49. It's tied together in the cops power, that of life or death.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 02:30 AM
Dec 2014

It's possible I'm connecting a dot that shouldn't be connected, but I don't think so.

In the case of an execution, which this appears to be, the cops chose death under highly suspicious circumstances, which if the news report is true, involves several levels of deception by cops.

These same cops -- as well as other cops -- are given the power of committing others to psychiatric care? Lawmakers have got to be joking. Perhaps this is what you meant by "irrelevant."

We now, hopefully, see the depths of depravity to which some cops descend, similar to the depths of depravity the CIA went in torture, but at least the cops kill quickly. Perhaps these cops who kill are crying out for help, but the Fraternal Order closes ranks, the police union defends the dirty cops' actions, and they don't get either the psychiatric or legal help for which they keep asking through their killings.

I can certainly understand why you would want this to be irrelevant, but I believe it is relevant.

Just like there is far too much cooperation between prosecuting attorneys and cops, it appears there's also too close of a relationship between health-care professionals and cops, and a double standard in treatment of citizens.



(14,779 posts)
51. Actually the Police power is limited to taking the person to the local psychotric hospital.
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 03:01 AM
Dec 2014

Much like the Police has the power to arrest someone and take him or her to a Magistrate, Judge or Justice of the Peace who determines if the Officer did what he should have done.

Now, when Police arrest you, hopefully it is NOT on a Friday, for you may not see a Judge till Monday (and if it is a Monday holiday, Tuesday). Please note, such arrests must be on outstanding warrants, for Police to arrest you without a Warrant you must be taken to a Magistrate, Judge or Justice of the Peace the day you are arrested. In my state within six hours. More the six hours, you have to be released.

As to mental hospital, the ones I know of, have a psychiatrist on duty on the weekend and thus someone will examine who the police take to them as soon as they get to the Mental Hospital.

Thus they are checks on the Police taking people to the Mental Hospital, basically the mental hospital itself, where an independent evaluation must be made of the person taken by the police to the Hospital.

So they are checks on the Police, but most Police know those checks and work with them or around them. I have to say this, I have seen several people that needed mental health care that the police picked up and took for such care. Someone has to be able to do that and right now that is the police.


(37 posts)
9. Police academy
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 12:59 AM
Dec 2014

We need to bring back the police academy and get rid of the police/marine boot camp where they don't teach serve and protect but
teach seek and destroy! Events like this one are no longer rare, they are becoming so numerous as to reach the level of a random
occurrence - in other words it could happen to anyone at any time.

Historic NY

(37,449 posts)
28. That would be a start....
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 12:39 PM
Dec 2014

one class here several years ago had the motto "if your want peace prepare for war". I asked the Sgt just WTF that meant...he couldn't answer.



(14,779 posts)
43. Si vis pacem, para bellum, is an old Latin saying and it means train and prepare
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 07:19 PM
Dec 2014

Si vis pacem, para bellum is from De Re Militari by Vegetius.



The actual book:


THe phase" "For peace, prepare for war" does NOT mean to act like you are at war, but to be prepared if you are attacked. It regards MILITARY training, you look at your potential enemies and train as if they are attacking you. Thus you are NOT an easy target and peace will be kept for the price of war is to high.

Thus you keep strong points so if the enemy attacks you have a place to fall back to. You train your army so it can fight if he has to.

On the other hand you do NOT keep your army on the frontier, but further back so if you are attacked, you have time to react before you actually go into combat. Vegetius was an advocate of defeating an enemy WITHOUT going into combat by destroying his supply lines and supplies.

What does that have to do with police escapes me. Police are NOT soldiers. Effective police are one with the community their police. Effective Police are NOT an occupying power making sure the conquered people do not revolt. Effective Police are NOT holding a strong point with a plan to hold out till relief arrive. Effective Police are NOT away from the Frontier so they can counter attack as the enemy's attack stalls.

Now, you can use the phase to mean, prepare for an attack, thus be prepared if one of the member of the community being police attacks you. Thus having a billy club or a gun, can be justified for they are to be used in an emergency situation (and in most emergency, the billy club is more effective. for you can charge with a billy club, you have to take a stand to aim a pistol and an attack is most cases your best defense in an ambush.

Another thing that phase can mean is carry a first aid kit and be train in its use, just in case you run across someone where such a kit and first aid is needed.

The biggest problems with police since WWII, has been the decision to go with Automobiles. Yes, the US as whole embraced the Automobile, but it also killed the sense of community. People do NOT interact as neighbors when they go some place in an Automobile. They drive to a store and interact as a buyer and seller. They go to work and interact as Employee, co-Employee and Employer. That is NOT the same as acting as a community where people interact as members of the same group, not as members of different groups that happen to interact.

Police suffer from the same problem and effective police need to be one with the community, with no sense of community effective police becomes impossible. To defeat this the Police have to interact with the community on the things the community thinks are important. Playgrounds and schools are often what a community wants and police need to support such desires.

Yes, people say they want more police protection, but that is NOT want the people want, they want police around when they need them and that has NEVER been possible all the time. The only way to address the desire for more police protection is to see how the police can do so, and that requires interaction with the Community they are policing.

Yes, police should be prepared if they find themselves in an emergency situation (back to "To have peace, prepare for war&quot but when it comes to Police they have to accept they must be one with the community they are policing, and that is often NOT the case and that is the biggest problem with police today.

Now Vegitus's book is often compared to Emperor Maurice "Strategikon".



The question is when was Vegitus's book written. It is clearly written post Constantine, for it is in late Latin not Classical Latin and when it comes to formation of the Legions mentions where Christ's image should be carried as while as where the Emperor's Image should be carried.

The question is when was in written. There is a reference to "Justinian" as an "Old Story" but Justinian ruled 527 to 565. The Book is dedicated to Emperor Valentinian but there are three Emperors of that name, Valentinian I 364-375. Valentinian II 375 to 392 and Valentinian III who ruled, 425 to 455. If the Justinian comment is accurate not a later addition, then all of these Emperors are to old. If the Justinian Comment was a later add on then all three are possible.

The biggest problem is Maurice "Strategikon". Maurice was emperor from 582 to 602, when he was killed in a battle for Emperorship, the first time that had happen since Constantine became Emperor (Constantine Emperor 306-337). That is the longest period of peaceful transfer of power in Roman History (and remains the longest if you see Julian's march on Constantine II as such a conflict but Constantine died the day before the battle and both armies declared Julian Emperor in 361, Julian's death fighting the Persians in 364 probably prevented a Civil war but either date still makes it the longest period of peaceful transfer of power in Roman History).

Maurice wrote in GREEK and "Strategikon" was a book intended for the officers of his troops. It is an emphasis on Cavalry tactics, which the Roman Army was converting to at that time period (Maurice was Emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire, a name the Roman Empire never used, instead till 1453 that Empire, often called the Byzantine Empire today, called itself the Roman Republic).

Given Maurice wrote in Greek how read was Vegetius's book, which was in Latin and emphasis Infantry tactics? On the other hand Maurice only mention infantry tactics in that Cavalry should be trained in such tactics so they can be used where such tactics are called for.

Maurice ruled the Eastern Empire AFTER Justinian had reconquered Italy (and saw the population drop almost 90% in those wars, with Rome dropping to a population of Zero from a population of over one million less then 100 years before).

Rome itself may have reached a population of Zero in 530 AD, the Roman Senate is believed to have survived to at least 603 AD. Yes, the Senate survived the fall of the Western Roman Empire, survived barbarian rule, but then disappeared under Imperial Rule from Constantinople (Through the Lombards had invaded Italy in the 580s making Italy a patch quilt of Imperial strongholds and Lombardic strongholds till the invasion of Italy by Pepin in the 700s.


Back to Vegetius. Vegetius's book next appears during the Crusades, where the Crusaders picked it up is unknown, but probably from their then Byzantine Empire allies. It is used by the Crusaders extensively and used extensively in the 1700s (after 1700 its use declined, for modern weapons and transport made its points less and less applicable, but it is still a hugely influential book even today).

On the other hand Maurice "Strategikon" was forgotten till the 1700s when it was found and first translated. Today the only translation are still in copyright, unlike Vegetius book where the translations are no longer in Copyright, or like the version I mentioned above was never in copyright for it was an official government publication.

Side note: The comments to the British translation as to Vegetius's book NOT been used in the late Empire was common belief at that time period, more recent research has indicated it was used. The basis of this mistake was the belief the post Constantine Army went to all Cavalry forces, but that does NOT appear to be the case till the after the time of Justinian 200 years later. For example the Battle of Adrianople in 378 AD was believed to be an all cavalry fight, do to archaeology research on that sight it is now seen as a mostly infantry fight. Thus during WWII, the view it was a cavalry fight met Vegetius's book, with its emphasis on infantry could not have been used. Today the view is that battle was mostly infantry through that position in the trash.


People still put the book in the late 300s. I am sorry, I lean to the early 600s. While Maurice wrote in Greek (and probably did not know Latin), that was NOT the norm in that time period. Latin was still alive and well in Barbarian occupied Western Europe, and in various locations in present day Eastern Europe (Romania for example, Romania is a Latin Language through with a huge input of Slavic Terms). Maurice was killed by Phocas in 602 who in turn was overthrown by Heraclius in 610 AD.


Heraclius was from Carthage, where his father had been military governor. Carthage spoke Latin not Greek at that time period thus Heraclius had to know Latin. Heraclius is an interesting Emperor of him and the later Roman Empire, see below. In my opinion, do to what was going on under Heraclius, military reforms was needed. This extended to both Infantry and Cavalry formations. This had been seen under the Emperors in the 500s. Thus I lean to Vegetius being from the late 500s early 600s and maybe tied in with the Reforms of Maurice. One way to view this is the reason Maurice did NOT mention Infantry tactics, is his troops had Vegetius and his officers knew BOTH Latin and Greek thus you wrote in the language you were more comfortable in. The reference to Valentinian may be to a lower court official that we do not call Emperor but people around him did.

Sidenote: Co-Emperors were known at that time period, we believe we know all of them, but they could be a few we do NOT know of, we know of some Roman Emperors only through one book, that is considered unreliable for it conflicts with other books on other Emperors, prior to the introduction of Linen paper in the 1300s, the paper in general use was parchment, which is leather and thus cost a lot more than the much cheaper Linen Paper, and even Pulp paper invented in 1801, thus a lot of history is lost for no one wrote it down for the cost of Parchment exceeded the value they put on writing that history down. Think about it in terms of Computers, how much is preserved and written down today, that people just threw away 40 years ago before we had computers? Computers permit keeping records even cheaper, thus more records are kept and the same was true with Pulp paper after 1801 and Linen paper after the 1300s.

Thus Vegetius may be from the late 500 to early 600s as part of the general reform of the Roman Army do to the pressure put on it by the Persians/Avars/Slavs and later the Arabs and Slavs (When the Arab Conquest was stopped around 700, the Roman went on the offensive against they greater enemy, the Slavs not the Arabs. By 700 the Eastern Empire was clearly Greek, all pretense of being Latin was given up. This would lead to a break with the Western Church, which slowly embraced the Franks in the 700s, crowning Charlemagne Emperor in 800.

Thus where does Vegetius fit in this history? Why was Vegetius used during the Crusade but NOT Maurice's "Strategikon"? By the time of the Crusades the Roman Army was no longer the Cavalry heavy army it had been in the 700 to 800s. One reason for this was the Empire had to replaced its previous horse archers with Northmen/Viking Foot Archers starting in the 800s. Such Horse Archers were the key to Maurice "Strategikon" but no longer available to the Greeks, thus that book may have been viewed as obsolete by the time of the Crusades.

Sidenote: How obsolete is an open debate, the English used Horse Archers AND foot Archers in their wars with the French in the 100 year war. These archers were armed with English Long Bows not the Recurve Composite bows of the Steeps that was used by the Cavalry of Maurice. Thus it is possible that Maurice's book was read during the Crusades, but Vegetius's book was seen as the more relevant book and with its widespread use after the introduction of Linen paper and the printing press became well known while Maurice's "Strategikon" was forgotten.

Brief History of Herclius and his time period, the last Roman-Persian War AND the War of Arab Conquest.

Heraclius took power while Persia had expanding to its greatest extent since the Time of Alexander the Great 900 years before. Technically Persia, the Avars and the Slavs were kept at bay under Phocas, but it was clear the situation was deteriorating.

In 610 Heraclius took over the Empire, but then proceeded to lose Damascus in 613, Jerusalem in 614, and Egypt in 619. In 619 Heraclius signed a peace treaty with the Avars and the Slavs (freeing his Western Flank) and proceeded to reform his army. Thus by 619 Egypt was under a non Roman ruler for the first time in over 500 years (Persia had grabbed it) as was Syria and what is today Israel.

Heraclius after 619 retrained his army. Heraclius did not lead his army to fight till 622, while he was retraining that army (The exact re-training is unknown for many years it was believed Heraclius had made the leaders of his Army, the Governors of the area they were being retrained in, thus creating the "Themes" of later Byzantine Armies. Today that is no longer as clear, the Themes seem to be more a product of his grandson Constan II, and in response to how to handle the continued fight with the Arabs).

Heraclius did retrain the army and in 622 lead it into combat. The fighting was inconclusive till 626 when the Persians, Slavs and Avars all marched on Constantinople, but that attempt was defeated by the Roman Fleet but it so weakened the Persians that in August 627 Heraclius destroyed the Persian Army. The Persians then sued for peace and all lands formerly held by Rome was returned.


That is the height of Heraclius's rule. Both the Roman and Persian armies were weak, to weak to carry on. Heraclius received no additional revenue from the lands he recovered, for the Roman Elite went to those areas and reclaimed that lands and demanded rent payments from the peasants for the time period under Persian Rule (8 to 9 years of Rent Payments to be made in one year). Under Roman Rule Egypt by this time period was owned by 6 or 7 Romans. This demand for that rent money would come back to hurt the Romans.

In 634 the Arabs from Arabia invaded Syria in 636 the Roman Army would be defeated in a massive defeat by the Arabs in the battle of Yarmouk.


One of the biggest problem with the Roman Army at Yarmouk was that the local peasants had been under PERSIAN rule for eight to ten years. Then in 627 returned to Roman Rule and Roman land owners. Like Egypt, this part of the Empire was owned by just a few Roman Elite (the 1%) and they wanted their rent money for the time period under Persian Rule (Persia REFUSED to recognize Roman Land Ownership, transferred it to themselves, but being NEW owners wanted less then the former owners, the peasants loved the lower Rent payments).

Anyway with Roman Rule restored, those annual rents went back up and the peasants hated it. In many ways the Roman need for supplies for their army was the problem, Rome had not had to raise such a large army for centuries AND the peasants resented having to give up their food for the army AFTER they had to pay the rent for the land to the Roman Elite.

The Peasants remember what had happened to them under Persian rule, ended up supporting the Arabs for the Persian had cut their rent payments and they expected the Arabs to do the same (while no record of such promises being made, it looks like the rent was cut). No massive conversion of these peasants occurred at this time period, Mohammad had a prejudice against farmers and the early Islamic Elites reflected that prejudice, thus the peasants stayed Christian and many remain Christian to this day (With the biggest attack on Christianity in that part of the World being since 1947 and then by the state of Israel, thus Bethlehem which has since at least the 300s been a Christian Town is under Israeli Occupation a majority Islamic town today, the Arabs could not do it, the Turks could not do it but Israel has).

In 636 the Roman Army was facing shortages do to the actions of its 1%. This would lead to the destruction of the Roman Army and the lost of Egypt in 639. Efforts were made in 642 to retake Egypt, but the same problem of supply that hit the Roman Army in 636, hit the Roman Army of 642, the Egyptian Peasants like the Syrian Peasants (and the Italian Peasants in the form of the Lombards, the Spanish Peasants in the form of the Goths, and the French Peasants under the Franks) opt to support an invader in the grounds it would lead to a transfer of title to the land they were working and thus lower rent. This explains the Egyptian's Bishops comment that the Arabs kicked out the "Tyrants" (All of these areas stayed Christian for centuries for Christianity was tied in with being Romans, something the peasants still valued under non-Roman Rule, but the same peasants HATED the Roman 1% and thus liked being under NON Roman Rule).

Yes the late Roman Empire was a situation where the 1% was destroying the country and the 99% was in open revolt against them. Religion was an effort to get the 1% to work with the 99% and seems to have worked to a degree (Egypt would stay Christian till the Crusades, through ruled by Moslems, and some people think as late as Napoleon's conquest in 1798, through the latest date most historians think is around 1600).

Notice, the peasants did NOT come to oppose their 1% till they had lived under some government NOT tied in with their own government. Once under such foreign rule, and the resulting lower rents the peasants supported the Invaders (notice I use the term RENT, for it was the payments to the 1% that was the problem NOT the taxes demanded by the Government).

As to Greece and modern day Turkey, the heartland the the Dark ages and Middle Ages Byzantine Empire, it was the part of the Empire that had the lowest value of agricultural land and had adopted Roman Law as to land inheritance to a degree even unheard of in Italy. Thus during the Roman Empire, Greece and Turkey had the lowest ownership rate by the Roman 1% of any part of the Empire (even the Balkans had higher ownership rate by the 1%).

Roman Troops were recruited from this area (second to what was post WWII Yugoslavia) for the simple reason it was a poor area for farming thus many farmers were willing to serve 20 years in the Army as long as they obtain title to the land they owned. Diocletian had adopted that policy for the Roman Army in the 290s and remain the law in parts of Turkey till WWI (When the Turks took over the land went to Turkish Troops, but the law remained).

Thus the area of the Roman Empire with the least controled by the Roman 1% was the part of the Roman Empire that survived. After 750 the Empire actually expanded for it no longer had to worry about its 1%, most had been eliminated by the needs of the Themes. The Themes was how the Byzantine Empire raised its troops. The Themes existed by 700, by 750 the Empire was on the march. In the 800s the Empire was in the position to retake all of the Middle East, but do to internal infighting failed to do so.

The Themes were both Military and Political organizations. Each theme had to produce a set number of soldiers ON COMMAND OF THE EMPEROR. During peace time such soldiers were farmers, or local knights. During war time they were mobilised for offensive warfare. If a soldier did not fight he lost his land, for it was given to someone who would. If a female inherited the land that the military duty belonged to, her husband had to carry it out. If that sounds like Middle Ages Feudalism, it is believe where it first developed and then spread to Western Europe in the 800s as the Frankish Empire of Charlemagne collapsed.

This Greek Empire would later fall in the middle ages as the effect of the Roman Elites on Western Europe finally died out in the 900s (No family in Europe can trace themselves in the male line prior to the 900s, that is how extensive was the reforms of Western Europe was in that century). With Europe out of the control of the Roman 1% by 1000 AD and the Warming up of the World do to the Middle Ages Warming period, Western Europe rebound, could afford to expand and went into the Crusades. The Crusades ended up rewriting the trade routes so that Constantinople was by passed and that city became a shell of its Dark Age self and ended up a back water to the rest of Europe.

A complicating factor was the division between the Eastern and Western Churches, the Greeks ended up joining with the Turks starting in 1054 and the battle of Manzikert but that merger becoming unstoppable with the sacking of Constantinople in 1204 by the Fourth Crusades (the only Crusades condemned by the Vatican AS IT WAS OCCURRING).

The Greeks and Turks merged to form the Ottoman Empire, but it was a marriage that was NOT going to last, by the 1600s the Turks were NO longer treating the Greeks as equals, by 1800 the Greeks had come to see the Turks like they had viewed the "Latins" in 1204-1453, faithless enemies.

Yes, I know the Turks took Constantinople in 1453, but that changed how the two people would interact within the growing Turkish-Greek Empire not that it was no longer a Turkish-Greek Empire. It was the Turks attempt to make their Empire more Islamic in the 1600s and 1700s that turned the Greeks against them but that is another story about another 1% of another period of time and they greed.

Sorry about the rant about the Late Roman Empire, but we are looking to do what Rome did and that was to cater to its 1% so much that the 99% cared less of who ruled, including being ruled by foreigners as long as their cost of living went up (and rent and payment for housing is much more important then Taxes in that regard). We are heading for disaster and we need to reverse course but no one in a leadership position is doing so.


(26,227 posts)
11. Offhand it sounds pretty damning for the cops especially
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 01:13 AM
Dec 2014

if the article is right and that the audio has the cops saying "drop the gun" after they shot him on the bed.

Laffy Kat

(16,373 posts)
12. Well, seems like things are never damning enough to prosecute the cops.
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 01:56 AM
Dec 2014

You can have video, audio, eye witnesses and still. . .


(26,227 posts)
50. So did the guys who attacked Reginald Denny which just proves
Wed Dec 17, 2014, 03:00 AM
Dec 2014

that even if you have video it isnt a guarantee that there will be a conviction and that the DA needs to work hard to present a compelling case to the jury.


(9,154 posts)
26. '"smelled the strong odor of chemicals" downwind'
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 11:42 AM
Dec 2014

Folks in rural areas probably have a lot of chemicals. House paints. Acetones. Paint thinners. Kerosenes. Folks in rural areas have to be self reliant, and do things themselves.

Oh, "handyman tinkering with a car on the property". Cops probably smelled Berryman's Chemtool: MEK or something similar. You can buy it at auto parts stores.


Johnny Rash

(227 posts)
27. Very sad, indeed!
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 12:03 PM
Dec 2014

This post makes realized that "Police Brutality" is no-longer just a Race issue, but is also a Social-Class issue.

I guess it's always easier to pick on those who can't least defend themselves.

It is absolutely shameful!

My heart goes to the family.


(68,456 posts)
29. Cops use planted guns in this situation
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 12:54 PM
Dec 2014

These sort of warrants should not be allowed...only way to stop the killing of innocent people...if the guy was cooking Meth, there would have been evidence...another day another cop murder.


(44 posts)
32. The boiling frog syndrome
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 01:55 PM
Dec 2014

strikes again. Search and seizure used to be taken seriously. Now, they can serve a warrant while simultaneously breaking into a home, shouting "Get on the floor! Don't move"! The authorities will always get away with exactly as much as they can get away with.


(359 posts)
30. An MP-5 9mm submachine gun?!
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 01:33 PM
Dec 2014

Seriously? Did Sgt. Jones think he was storming Normandy Beach?!

Jesus Christ . . .


(26,449 posts)
39. Some of us are behind firewalls during the day
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 04:21 PM
Dec 2014

The video shows as missing content, so that's not an option for me until later tonight.

Paper Roses

(7,471 posts)
35. I could not even believe the headline of this post. Good grief.
Tue Dec 16, 2014, 02:58 PM
Dec 2014

I am sick to death about all these renegade police .
90 years old? ? At any age, there is no excuse.!

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