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arcane1

(38,613 posts)
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 03:13 PM Sep 2014

Here’s what Shakespeare’s plays sounded like with their original English accent

In this short documentary, linguist David Crystal and his son, actor Ben Crystal, look at the differences between English pronunciation now and how it was spoken 400 years ago. They answer the most basic question you probably have right now — How do you know what it sounded like back then? — and they discuss the value of performing Shakespeare’s plays in the original accent…

http://twentytwowords.com/performing-shakespeares-plays-with-their-original-english-accent/




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Here’s what Shakespeare’s plays sounded like with their original English accent (Original Post) arcane1 Sep 2014 OP
That was so interesting. Thanks for posting.......n/t monmouth3 Sep 2014 #1
During the Great Vowel Shift edhopper Sep 2014 #2
Or the Hoi Toiders on the Carolina outer banks. Warpy Sep 2014 #27
Fascinating. SheilaT Sep 2014 #3
Right, a double-edged sword thesquanderer Sep 2014 #13
Please, leave the language alone BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #26
The thing is, if you live in some other SheilaT Sep 2014 #29
I really do understand what you are saying BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #32
Thank you for your thoughtful response. SheilaT Sep 2014 #34
Thank you! BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #35
Actually, if we crossed paths I'd be SheilaT Sep 2014 #36
WOW BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #37
O!M!G! SheilaT Sep 2014 #38
Adding to the queue furiously RIGHT NOW BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #39
Ahhh, thank you. SheilaT Sep 2014 #41
My friend is going to kill me BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #40
Reminds me of a Scottish brogue phantom power Sep 2014 #4
I had that same impression Voice for Peace Sep 2014 #8
^^THIS^^ BumRushDaShow Sep 2014 #9
It's much closer to Somerset dickthegrouch Sep 2014 #25
Interesting TimeToGo Sep 2014 #5
Fascinating. I'm trying to think who would also find this interesting...to send link. Aha! northoftheborder Sep 2014 #6
Great stuff. K&R! (EOM) Old Crow Sep 2014 #7
Wow I love this! I took a class (as a lark when you could afford it in the 70's) in old English. gordianot Sep 2014 #10
Fantastic! The older pronounciation is lovely nt DawgHouse Sep 2014 #11
That is really cool! Enthusiast Sep 2014 #12
Highly informative and great fun. Thanks ! BlueJazz Sep 2014 #14
They didn't point out that it becomes XemaSab Sep 2014 #15
And thereby hangs a tale. malthaussen Sep 2014 #20
Thank you. Thespian2 Sep 2014 #16
Kinda sounds like Pirate Speak mackerel Sep 2014 #17
Intimacy kokobell616 Sep 2014 #18
Jacque's speech describing his meeting with Touchstone thucythucy Sep 2014 #19
I just forwarded this video to my former grad school English prof. CTyankee Sep 2014 #21
I loved how the forgotten puns reappeared. I can't imagine how much fun that was to discover. arcane1 Sep 2014 #22
Yes, can you imagine an academic with her whole life devoted to English lit and esp. CTyankee Sep 2014 #23
Brilliant !! Historic NY Sep 2014 #24
cool! thank you arcane1 indie9197 Sep 2014 #28
doesn't the younger Crystalhave a scrumptious voice? grasswire Sep 2014 #30
I'm studying with them Prophet 451 Sep 2014 #31
Would you consider doing an OP on this? BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #33

edhopper

(33,575 posts)
2. During the Great Vowel Shift
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 03:32 PM
Sep 2014

I believe they think some of the accents on the Outer Islands of Georgia are the closest to English at that time.

Warpy

(111,254 posts)
27. Or the Hoi Toiders on the Carolina outer banks.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 11:54 PM
Sep 2014

They don't think they had to posh London speech patterns but rather the speech patterns of Cornwall some 300 or so years ago.

I love the OP Shakespeare, it seems very familiar to me.

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
3. Fascinating.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 04:16 PM
Sep 2014

I've been arguing for years that Shakespeare needs to be translated to actual modern 21st century English to be understood. Perhaps we need to hear much more of his work in the original pronunciation.

thesquanderer

(11,986 posts)
13. Right, a double-edged sword
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 05:35 PM
Sep 2014

Putting it in modern english makes it easier to understand, but you'd lose some of the word play, and also perhaps the poetry of it. If you're trying to make it easy to follow the story, modern English would certainly make it easier... but the story is not necessarily the main purpose of reading/seeing Shakespeare. For that, you can read the cliff's notes. The art of it is another thing entirely. Just like when other language poetry or novels are translated into English, some translations could be more successful than others in maintaining the art of the original... but none are going to give you exactly what the original did in its own language.

I think a lot of what makes Shakespeare plain in the more successful modern interpretations of original text is what the actor does non-verbally. The actor's use of gestures and facial expressions can often make the meaning clear to even those who are having trouble with the sounds of the words.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
26. Please, leave the language alone
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 11:43 PM
Sep 2014

Baz Luhrman did a great job of adapting the original language and story telling so that it was understandable. Adaptions such as West Side Story are also wonderful. But losing the language would just dumb it down like everything else. Shakespeare is as popular as ever, with productions like The Hollow Crown on BBC getting young audiences hooked.

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
29. The thing is, if you live in some other
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 01:05 AM
Sep 2014

non-English speaking country, you read Shakespeare in translation. More to the point, you generally read Shakespeare in a recent translation. Yes, something is always lost in translation, but if you have to refer to a glossary or footnote every fifth word, as most high school students, and even plenty of us well-educated adults in the English speaking world need to, you're going to lose an awful lot, and will have a hard time enjoying what you're reading.

I like to point out that other great classics from the past are constantly being re-translated, to reflect how language changes. If you read the Iliad or the Odyssey, do you read it in a 16th or 17th century translation? I doubt it. I've even had the experience of reading them forty or more years ago in the translations available then, and more recently in a recent translation, and I'll tell you, that the more recent translations are far easier to read.

The problem with Shakespeare is that he really and truly almost invented our language. Not to mention his plots are fabulous. He deserves to be read and performed and listened to, whether in the original or in some updated version. I do want to emphasize that I found the OP versions, at least the brief excerpts given here, to be more easy to understand than the way it's usually performed.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
32. I really do understand what you are saying
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 02:48 PM
Sep 2014

And the key is, as you mention, our language and many of our sayings are heavily in debt to Shakespeare. That is why the language of the plays themselves is so important. I am not privileged enough to read many things in the original language, and I know I am missing out (most especially in poems such as the Iliad and the Odyssey as you mentioned). But, those of us who are native English speakers are afforded the supreme pleasure of reading Shakespeare in the original with some work and should be encouraged to do so. Giving someone the easy way out will beguile her into thinking she "knows" Shakespeare when she is actually missing about 80%.

I am all for adaptations to get people interested in the themes and plots. I taught Shakespeare to inner-city high school students, and let me tell you, it was not easy. We watched "O" based on Othello as well as West Side Story and Romeo + Juliet. Then we read the play out loud and went over the passage to translate it to their life experiences. They hated it at the time, but many of them came to me later and said that was their favorite class because it was challenging and they felt that they were "learning the same as the rich kids."

The most important thing about Shakespeare compared to other works is that it is a play--it is meant to be spoken. Just as the video above shows, the words and the meter make it much easier for the actor to say as well as to remember. Most of the jokes would be lost (some of which don't translate now anyway) but also the brilliance of each word choice. Much of the meaning is conveyed in the performance, so understanding every word is not necessary.

As with opera, reading summaries before a performance keeps a viewer in the loop so to speak. I attended a very good production of Coriolanus last year and they gave a talk before the performance and even had some of the actors and the director giving their interpretations of the play. That is a great way to open up the text.

New heartthrob Brits such as Tom Hiddleston are giving new life to Shakespeare and I applaud them for trying to revive the Bard with young people. His Coriolanus filled movie theaters with young girls who fell in love with him as Loki in Thor and went to watch a simulcast of the play. If they were my students, I would have given them extra credit. Who knows? Maybe a few will fall in love with Shakespeare as well.

But I do understand your point. My friend is Danish, and he has no feeling for Shakespeare whatsoever, mostly because the language is difficult for a non-native speaker and he has no cultural connection to it (don't get him started on "rotten in the state of Denmark&quot . I'm all for doing as much as possible for making them accessible, but it is great that up until now, the language has been preserved as well as possible. I would sincerely mourn if those of this age, which is perhaps the greatest contraction of language, decided to alter it.

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
34. Thank you for your thoughtful response.
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 04:46 PM
Sep 2014

All too often when I say what I did above, I get a simple knee-jerk and haughty "Shakespeare must be read in the original or not at all!" sort of response.

I love it that you've been so successful in teaching Shakespeare, and of course one of the big reasons for that success was giving them versions that were more understandable, as well as the original.

One thing that I consider amazing and wonderful about Shakespeare is how his plays are endlessly adaptable.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
35. Thank you!
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:41 PM
Sep 2014

Nobody lets me talk about Shakespeare with them. My mother loved it and got me hooked and that is one of the things I miss now that she is gone. And believe me, I was not a great teacher, but I did love teaching some of the things I enjoyed. One of the things I like about DU is meeting people and discussing things I don't get to regularly.

I am enjoying watching The Hollow Crown on DVD and Ben Whishaw in Richard II was phenomenal. I've only watched Henry IV Part I and have Part II coming. My favorite might be Ian McKellan in Richard III. And I was able to visit Elsinore last Christmas which was entirely thrilling!

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
36. Actually, if we crossed paths I'd be
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:45 PM
Sep 2014

happy to discuss Shakespeare with you. I'm not particularly knowledgeable, but have read several of the plays and have seen a reasonable number either in live theater or on TV or at a movie.

I'm old enough that I got to see the amazing Richard Burton in Hamlet in 1964 or thereabouts. There was some kind of a deal where they filmed one of his performances, and it was shown in movie theaters for a very limited time, after which all copies of the film were supposed to be destroyed. I believe I saw something a few months ago that a copy had surfaced. It would be so amazing to have his performance available forever.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
37. WOW
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:50 PM
Sep 2014

I would love to see that. Living in Los Angeles growing up, I got to see many people's close to last performance. We saw Richard Burton in Camelot, and he was but a shadow of his former self. I just read a book on him (also Richard Harris whom I'm wild about as well as Peter O'Toole) called Hellraisers. Very funny but very sad because they all basically drank themselves to death.

If you ever find out more about that Hamlet, let me know and I will definitely track it down.

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
38. O!M!G!
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:57 PM
Sep 2014

So I did a Google of Richard Burton's Hamlet, clicked on the wikipedia entry, which says it's been released on home video. It's available to watch on Netflix as a DVD.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
39. Adding to the queue furiously RIGHT NOW
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 07:58 PM
Sep 2014

I think this will warrant a nice bottle of wine and a candle or two as I sit in a darkened room enjoying this singular treat. I shall report back once I watch it! You are today's most wonderful person!!!!!!!

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
40. My friend is going to kill me
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:01 PM
Sep 2014

Because right now my queue is Hamlet, Macbeth & Edward II with McKellan and Henry IV Pt 2. HA!

BumRushDaShow

(128,905 posts)
9. ^^THIS^^
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 05:14 PM
Sep 2014

I have had a couple Scottish professors and co-workers that I've known over the years and this pronunciation is very similar to their accents.

dickthegrouch

(3,173 posts)
25. It's much closer to Somerset
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 10:34 PM
Sep 2014

My sister talks exactly that. I had to tone it down when I came to the US because no-one could understand me.

gordianot

(15,237 posts)
10. Wow I love this! I took a class (as a lark when you could afford it in the 70's) in old English.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 05:15 PM
Sep 2014

It was great at Parties but alas I have lost it. This is even better, I wonder if they have this transcribed in International Phonetics?

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
15. They didn't point out that it becomes
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:17 PM
Sep 2014

"From whore to whore we rape and rape
And then, from whore to whore we rut and rut."

malthaussen

(17,193 posts)
20. And thereby hangs a tale.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 08:31 PM
Sep 2014

I thought it was quite charming how the elder Crystal initially fumbled the word "whore.:

-- Mal

Thespian2

(2,741 posts)
16. Thank you.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:24 PM
Sep 2014

Exceptional post. Perhaps helps people realize that Shakespeare was a working dramatist who loved using HIS language.

kokobell616

(35 posts)
18. Intimacy
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 06:54 PM
Sep 2014

What struck me about this discussion was the actors mention of actor patron interaction. It seems to me that an audience mere feet away during daylight hours would bring an intimacy both to the performer and the audience. Shakespeare festivals need my attention and respect now more than I would have imagined before seeing this piece.

thucythucy

(8,048 posts)
19. Jacque's speech describing his meeting with Touchstone
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 07:58 PM
Sep 2014

was always more fun for me than the "all the world is a stage" piece that's part of the same scene.

Thanks for this. And how lovely to see such a happy father/son team.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
21. I just forwarded this video to my former grad school English prof.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 08:35 PM
Sep 2014

She immediately wrote back delighted with it! She had just forwarded it to 7 people!

Her Ph.D was on Shakespeare's tragedies and she was fascinated, as I was! this is just superb. so great.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
23. Yes, can you imagine an academic with her whole life devoted to English lit and esp.
Sun Sep 14, 2014, 08:45 PM
Sep 2014

Shakespeare, coming upon this?

Her course was superb, BTW. We did a study of King Lear that absolutely floored me. It was a course on transcendence and included works by Dickinson and Keats who remain two of my favorite poets.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
31. I'm studying with them
Mon Sep 15, 2014, 01:58 PM
Sep 2014

The logo in the upper left indicates this was made by the Open University, probably for one of their English Lit courses.

Over here, the Open University provide an incredible way for poor people to get an education they maybe didn't get a chance at when they were younger. They provide free tuition and textbooks to the poor, free of charge and open to everyone (although, if you've never studied at uni level before, they do ask you to take an intro course first). Having studied law as a young man, I'm now unable to work due to disability so I'm doing a degree in Forensic Psychology and, if I'm ever able to work again, hope to do that for a living. They've also been at the forefront of digital learning. Originally, their docus were broadcast on tv in the early hours of the morning. Nowadays, all the docus are online, along with copies to their textbooks, a library of pretty much every scientific journal in publication and loads of lectures.

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
33. Would you consider doing an OP on this?
Tue Sep 16, 2014, 02:51 PM
Sep 2014

I think many people would be very interested in this information. I know I'm going to check them out as there are many classes not in my field that I never got a chance to take. This is the kind of thing I wish all universities would be: free and open to anyone who wishes to learn.

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