Chris Hedges on Pornography, discussing Empire of Illusion on BookTV

[redqueen]

[seabeyond]

1. chomsky, hedges, we on the left CHEER, except when talking porn

then everyone is quiet. men on the left that are our HEROES, but we ignore when they discuss porn.

interesting

i did not know hedges thought this.

my respect escalates.

again, thanks redqueen.

[freshwest]

4. +1. So does mine.

[seabeyond]

5. i got to listen to my husband talk to our 14 yr old son

about porn the other day. without them knowing. sigh.... he is such a good man. and he sees it from a perspective that i had never addressed.

he said, the women that are in the porn are just as likely being forced. and what does that make us. we cannot know if they are. we cannot be a part of that. we talk about their willingness, choice. but we dont know. and how many women are in front of the camera with a smile, while someone behind the camera has the power and control.

[freshwest]

6. They should learn the real story behind the 'star' of 'Deep Throat.'

Last edited Sat Apr 7, 2012, 03:14 PM - Edit history (1)

It's amazing what a person will do to survive. Yet others remain clueless to ensure their bliss.

Deep Throat didn’t get an 18 certificate in Britain until 2000, but an estimated ten million Americans saw the film as the Mafia distributed it around the country, burning down cinemas when owners refused to hand over half their takings.

In her own words:

Her husband had had her gang-raped by five men, she said, and kept her a prisoner ‘just as much as if I was in Alcatraz’. He would never let her out of his sight, spying through the keyhole when she was in the bathroom and listening to her telephone calls with a .45 automatic pistol pointed at her.

Linda Lovelace, pictured in another scene from the film, told an official inquiry into the sex industry in 1986: 'When you see the movie Deep Throat, you are watching me being raped'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2120823/How-Deep-Throat-star-Linda-Lovelaces-tragic-life-modern-morality-tale.html

But hey, never mind. Oh, and n/t.

[seabeyond]

8. thank you. you saved me time....

i was going to research this.

[redqueen]

21. A lot of people watching porn are watching women being raped.

There is a documentary called Hardcore that I don't have the strength to watch. It apparently shows it.

There's also a youtube video that shows a clip of what goes on 'behind the scenes'... one thing I remember too clearly is this one woman (probably a teenager) who was saying, "It hurts. It hurts bad."

And people just keep pretending it's not happening... because apparently getting their porn fix is more important.

[DutchLiberal]

32. So are you saying ALL women in porn are being 'raped'?

And you base that on a documentary you've never seen? And on one single YouTube clip (where is it?) showing one single incident?

I'm not saying abuse doesn't happen. I think, like in any profession, abuse can and will happen in the porn industry. I just don't get where you get the idea that ALL women are being 'raped', or even that a majority is being raped. I think you pulled that out of thin air.

[redqueen]

36. Read more carefully.

I said a lot, not all.

And someone below mentioned screaming in pain, I think, but those women who are raped aren't screaming. Any screaming on screen is intentional, for men who get off seeing women being hurt.

Most are trying as best they can to do a good job of making their pain look 'hot and sexy' so they can get paid. They sometimes aren't.

Porn consumers should to stop ignoring what goes on behind the scenes.

[DutchLiberal]

37. But you can't back up that claim.

I think your claim that "a lot" (is that "most" or just "a lot", what order of magnitude are we talking about here?) of girls are being forced/raped is more an expression of your own perception on porn than it is an actual, factual reflection of what goes on in the porn business. I think you were already always against pornography and that view has informed your claims about "a lot" of girls being "raped". You have found additional, anecdotal evidence to back up that perception and, in your mind, you have 'translated' that to the business as a whole. That's my take on it. Of course you are entitled to your own opinion on porn and no doubt you will say I (and other men) 'ignore' problems in the business because that fits my (our) agenda (= we want to be able to watch porn). I just don't think it's factually true what you're saying. I'm not saying abuse doesn't happen sometimes and I would never ignore or downplay it, as a liberal. But, also as a liberal, I'm not willing to vilify and demonise an entire industry because of a handful of regrettable exceptions. That would be throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Small thing I wanted to add, about you saying some men get off seeing women being hurt. First, like I said to seabeyond, my estimation is that the 'violent porn' is a minority niche 'genre' in the overall offering of porn. Second, I think it's first and foremost about the illusion of having power over and dominating a woman; not so much the woman in pain. It's like couples who are into S&M. That, too, is not about hurting one another, but exercising power and control over one another. Like you said, it's only make-belief to begin with, as it's all acted out, so I don't see why it should be a problem. I've known guys (online and offline) who were into that kind of porn, but who were the most gentle and respectful men you could imagine. They were all in steady long-term relationships and they treated their girlfriends well. So to say that seeing that kind of porn makes men violent/disrespectful against women is demonstrably untrue. Furthermore, there never has been any convincing evidence on that. At most, shady correlations could be found with creative interpreting of data.

It's not something most men would REALLY like to do to women; they would never do so in real life. And since I have no desire to have a thought police, I don't see why we should make a problem out of this. More important, and this may come as a shock to you, the 'rape fantasy' is not only common among men, but also among women. Important to note first, is that I personally know, in real life, women close to me who have been raped. So I would in no way, ever make light of it. Ever. I hope you understand that. But I've visited a forum for years, a Dutch forum designed for high school students (though lots of members stick around after leaving high school), on which all sort of topics could be discussed in sub-fora, including sexuality. In the sexuality forum, the topic of rape fantasy has come up more than a few times in the years I was there. A lot (really, a lot) of female members (longtime, trustworthy members) have admitted in those kinds of threads to having such fantasies. (Men, too, by the way.) Not that they ever REALLY wanted that to happen to them, OF COURSE. Yet it was still a fantasy of theirs and that comes back to what I said before, about dominating someone or being dominated by someone. Apparently, that's a staple of human sexuality. I have read similar things from women in magazines targeted at high school students (here in The Netherlands, sexual topics are common things to find in teenagers magazines), by way of mailed-in questions. And that was in the times before things like YouPorn came along, when nobody could see porn on the web because you had to PAY for it.

These women (and men) weren't 'indoctrinated' or 'programmed' by 'The Patriarchy' to have such thoughts or fantasies. They just had them. Like lots and lots and lots of others DON'T have them. Yet you never hear any explanation from feminists that, if 'The Patriarchy' is really THAT powerful and dominating, then why is it that so many women do NOT have such thoughts? Just some food for thought.

[redqueen]

39. I suggest you do more research.

You seem to have formed all kinds of opinions about where my opinions came from. Don't see the point.

What I do think is important is that you recognize that violent porn is extremely popular and getting more popular by the day. The most popular kind is, of course, 'barely legal'.

If people want to support a multi billion dollar industry which necessitates the rape and abuse of women that's their business. IMO there should not be such an insistence on ignoring anti porn viewpoints including exiting porn 'stars' in order to manufacture the appearance of widespread agreement.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. "extremely popular and getting more popular by the day. The most popular kind is..." Data, please.

Quantitative data, which I'm sure you must have in abundance to make such an authoritative sounding statement.

I'm not talking about some breathless op-ed from an unbiased source like "Canadians against nasty smut" or whatever. Where is the STATISTICAL ANALYSIS that says that "violent porn is extremely popular and getting more popular by the day"?

[redqueen]

45. Those statements arw based on what.porn producers say. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

47. They are?

Or are they based upon what Chris Hedges and "Canadians against that nasty filth Nigel likes to watch" claim that they say?

Anyway, "most popular" and "getting more popular by the day" imply numerical values. If these statements are true, there should be a treasure trove of actual statistical data to back them up.

[DutchLiberal]

87. That's not a fact, that's your perception which is heavily colored by your biased supposition.

What I do think is important is that you recognize that violent porn is extremely popular and getting more popular by the day.

Evidence: zero. The wish is the father of the thought: you WANT to perceive it that way, otherwise your anti-porn argument would collapse. I am extremely wary of accepting your bold claims, because they have been proven wrong by facts and statistics in the past and you would not and still will not recognize that. One example of that is your persistence that the 'Swedish model' of prostitution has worked effectively, which got rebuked a number of times on this forum with actual facts and figures. So forgive me for not accepting any statements you make without anything to back it up, other than a documentary which you admit you haven't even seen yourself, anecdotal evidence based on one YouTube video and your gut feeling.

One question about your post: what does 'barely legal' porn have to do with violent porn? I don't see the connection. As far as I am familiar with the 'genre', 'barely legal' is not about (simulating) violence, coercion or abuse. It's about very young models, who often even look much younger than they actually are.

It's disappointing, but not surprising (since it doesn't serve your agenda), that you haven't spend a single word I've written about the fantasies about domination and power in sexuality which both men and women alike display in our daily sexlives. I mentioned S&M and role playing as a real-life counterpart to the kind of porn you bemoan. From my own experience, as I have written about, I have known (online, that is) lots of women who voluntarily, at their own initiative, admitted to certain fantasies about domination or submission (or a fantasy to dominate others), whether or not they would want to actually act them out. You have not said a word about that. Maybe that is because it is harder to condemn real-life, existing WOMEN who voluntarily choose to engage in such fantasies than it is to condemn something as abstract as 'porn', which merely reflects such fantasies.

Of course you could never admit that, because that would mean having to admit that NOT ONLY men engage in those kinds of fantasies/role playing, but women as well, and that wouldn't fit the conspiracy theory about 'The Patriarchy', which you have turned into a parody, into some kind of 'organization' which picks out women to brainwash and subject. What about women who watch porn and enjoy it? On the Dutch forum I was talking about earlier (the one were students come together to talk about anything), many young women admitted to watching porn. From all the other things they've written, they don't strike me as oppressed victims...

...

[Warren DeMontague]

40. I dont think you've seen any actual porn, I think you're hearing about it from anti-porn "activists"

Yes, and people who believe all hetero penetrative sex is inherently in and of itself oppressive are, of course, going to see depictions of the same on screen as abuse.

[redqueen]

42. Why the.focus on me?

Regardless, you're so hilariously wrong.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. Because you're making all sorts of statements about how people in porn feel, how they can't

actually be consenting, etc.

I have yet to see any actual data to back it up, just a lot of the same old culture war grousing that we always get.

People like Hedges and Ralph Nader should drop the fucking charade and admit that they're actually working for the GOP, already.

[redqueen]

46. You're obviously not reading my posts. I'm done wasting my time. Chomsky is anti porn. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

48. Chomsky also has some bass-ackwards ideas about Israel.

The guy isn't always right.

[DutchLiberal]

89. Actually, Chomsky is 100% on the money when it comes to Israel.

Returning to the borders of 1967, like Chomsky argues, is the position most nations worldwide have taken in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It's by no means an absurd or controversial stance.

But still, like you say, nobody is ever 100% right. I said the same to seabeyond: there is nobody with whom I agree 100% of the time. Yet it was implied in this thread, from the start, that *because* people like Hedges and Chomsky are 'on our side' when it comes to politics, we should all blindly sign a pledge of allegiance to them and all their points of view. And if we don't, this is seen as a kind of self-serving, hypocritical act by men in order to 'protect' their 'smut' (= porn). I find this to be absurd, because somebody who's right nine times, doesn't automatically have to be right the tenth time.

[Warren DeMontague]

94. Not to steer this train off into I/P land, that's not the view espoused by Chomsky I meant.

Yes, the green 1967 line is and needs to be the basis of any realistic long-term 2 state solution. That's not just the position of most nations worldwide, that's actually the accepted position among most of Israel, and was the basis for the final deal that Yasser Arafat walked away from in 2000... Not, again, because the Israelis weren't working off of the '67 lines for the final borders, but because Arafat torpedoed the whole thing on the right of return issue at the last minute.

Whether or not you agree with Chomsky being barred from the West Bank in 2010, it would NOT have happened merely for advocacy of the same principle which was driving Ehud Barak and the peace process of the 1990s, ie. a 2 state solution based upon the '67 borders modified with mutually agreed upon land swaps.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/18/world/middleeast/18chomsky.html

[Warren DeMontague]

74. The definition of time wasting is trying to do battle w/ things like heterosexual penetrative sex

Which is, apparently, one of the linchpins of "the patriarchy" and its primary means of oppressionatin'

[Warren DeMontague]

79. Sasha Grey: "Here's a woman who's intelligent, cognizant and making her own choices"

...and you still tell me that what I'm doing is wrong, screw you, because that should end the debate.'

http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/sasha-grey-the-dirtiest-girl-in-the-world-the-story-behind-the-story-20090429#ixzz1suT6cNB6

also

http://www.counterpunch.org/2004/12/11/an-interview-with-christi-lake/

[DutchLiberal]

88. Obviously, she got brainwashed by The Patriarchy to say those things...

[Warren DeMontague]

93. I'm sure Hedges, the amateur mental health diagnostician, would say she has a case of "PTSD"

Or at the very least a case of terribly-inconvenient-to-the-narrative-itis.

[redqueen]

14. Yeah, it's funny how easy it is for most people to just ignore these particular kinds of abusive.

Wait no... no, it isn't. It's just sad.

[seabeyond]

22. Wait no... no, it isn't. It's just sad.

yup

[Warren DeMontague]

72. It'd be more sad if you realized that for all the people who admit to looking at porn

The vast majority of the rest do it too but just deny t.

[DutchLiberal]

31. I don't know one single person whom I agree with 100% of the time.

I mostly agree with Jon Stewart and Bill Maher, but on some issues I think they dropped the ball.

I mostly agree with Keith Olbermann, but I have shaken by head a few times in disbelieve at what he said.

I mostly agree with Noam Chomsky and Chris Hedges, but sometimes I think they're just wrong.

It's not a sneaky plot by all men to 'conveniently ignore' them; it's just that some of us (a lot?) don't agree.

Or are you saying that, once we have agreed with someone in the past, we should sign a pledge to support that person's opinions at all times?

[KT2000]

2. thank you for posting this

I had a discussion with someone on DU yesterday about his comments. Apparently some choose to ignore the fact that these women lead lives of exploitation and humiliation. People are making money off of women who have been damaged from childhood and it is sickening and sad.

[redqueen]

15. Eventually it has to be recognized.

Hopefully soon, but ... not looking good, really.

[Warren DeMontague]

97. I know. Morally damaged and soul sick women exploited by planned parenthood

And led to believe that they are making a "choice" about their bodies with regards to abortion. Why can't anyone see that these poor helpless dears don't know what they're doing, they've been taken advantage of by the evil abortion industry. We need to protect them from what they have been erroneously led to believe is their own so called "choice" (GOD I HATE THAT WORD)


...um, that is what you're talking about, right?

Ps this post is

[zazen]

3. Amen. I get so weary of leftist males ever comprehending this.

Not all of them, mind you--a few get it, but generally, most men and many women on the left don't comprehend it, as MacKinnon, the late Andrea Dworkin, and many other feminists have been saying for over 30 years.

As C. MacKinnon said, arguing with them about pornography is like arguing with someone who says up is down. It's like "logic by Escher." No matter what, the porn stays, because apparently, men couldn't get it up before the production of mass pornography.

[redqueen]

16. It's sad to think how many people had their first experience with porn as children.

So many early sexual experiences, overwhelmingly likely were skewed by capitalistic pandering to the male gaze. Awesome.

[Warren DeMontague]

51. Yes, sort of how I get weepy over the rampant flimhatzerry with the snarfwaddles

all the poor helpless flingledumpins, awash in a media-rich environment of relentless bumhungledorp.

It's sad. It's an amalgam of nonsensical gibberish, but it's sad.

[redqueen]

63. If you bother attempting to engage with me and dare to think

That I'm not answering you because I can't, or I'm stumped, or whatever incorrect reason, just cime back here and read your post above.

[Warren DeMontague]

68. Well, I asked you a straightforward question: does "the patriarchy" encompass all or most

Of Planet Earth?

Is "living under patriarchy" an accurate description of the condition of all or most of humanity?

[DutchLiberal]

90. That sounds an awful lot like holding rap music and video games responsible for juvenile delinquency

When I saw my first 'porn' at age 14 (soft-porn/'erotica'), I knew it was all fiction and fantasy anyway. It wasn't real. Those people were paid actors, they were playing out a script and what I saw on tv was nothing like reality. Just like I knew that you couldn't really do all the things in real life that Bruce Willis was doing in Die Hard! My parents and my teachers taught me the difference between fiction and reality. And even if they hadn't, I would've known from all the teenagers' magazines I read when I was in high school. Like I wrote upthread, topics regarding sexuality are common in Dutch teen magazines. I don't know how that is in the US, but my guess is that subject is 'verboten' out of fear that parents will complain. I also hear and read constantly about sex education being outlawed in high schools across the US and abstinence-only classes replacing them. Add to that the whole hoopla you've got over there with the 'purity rings' and 'virginity pledges' and it is no wonder American teenagers are clueless about sex and go to porn for the answer.

But the wrong conclusion to draw from that, is to blame porn for misconceptions children may develop about sexuality. That's like saying violent video games and rap music are responsible for violent crime among teenagers. It's a conservative and reactionary point of view. It's the general attitude toward sexuality in the US which strikes me as very unhealthy and repressive. If you listen to what's going on in the US regarding birth control and similar topics, it's no wonder kids don't get educated about sex. They're being taught it's filthy. And frankly, with the attitude of 'second wavers' toward sexuality, they're contributing to it. Then they turn around and blame porn for it. That's too easy. That's demagoguery.

[DutchLiberal]

33. If, like you say, most men AND women on the left disagree with you, maybe you're in the wrong.

Have you never considered that possibility, instead of pretending to be one of the few 'enlightened' ones to 'get it'? Maybe the majority doesn't 'get it', because there IS nothing to 'get'.

I don't know a whole lot about the history of feminism, but from what I've read, it seems like today, most modern feminists find MacKinnon and Dworking's stale and rigid dogma outdated and old-fashioned. Contrary to those two, they don't think sex is dirty anymore and they have a positive attitude toward sex. At least that's how I understand it.

The views of you and some of the people in this thread who share your view are that of, what appears to be, a tiny (yet vocal) minority. What you're saying, in essence, is that the whole world is wrong except for you and those select few people. What are those odds?

[Warren DeMontague]

49. Apparently, some women will never be happy until they are in charge of how CONSENTING ADULTS

they've never met get their jollies.

[Warren DeMontague]

96. Andrea Dworkin was mentally ill and could have benefited from anti-psychotic meds.

By the time she died she felt she was being pursued across Europe by giant invisible penises.

She was a sad, tragic figure. That she is still held up as a "hero" and her disjointed, paranoid ramblings are given any credence whatsoever says a great deal about her "fans".

[redqueen]

98. Source for your allegations about Andrea Dworkin? nt

[Warren DeMontague]

99. Right after you source with statistical data your claims on what is "the most popular kind of porn"

And you answer my prior question about whether or not you consider "the patriarchy" to be an omnipresent condition pertaining to the entire Earth and all or most of humanity?

I'll be happy to.

[redqueen]

100. This isn't Feminism 101, and the info re: porn is easily searchable.

Did you try Google?

I did try Googling your claims about Dworkin, and got nothing.

[Warren DeMontague]

101. You got nothing.

Exactly.

[redqueen]

102. You didnt google. Of course.

And you have no source. Just more worthless drivel.

[Warren DeMontague]

103. Upthread you've asserted your right to ignore my questions.

That's fine, but it makes it all the more ludicrous when you attempt to order me to provide you with sourcing. And that's what this is really all about, isn't it? People -consenting adults- who refuse to follow your orders, your edicts, your dictates?

I'm sure, all verrrrrry frustrating.

Like I said: you back up with statistical data your claim about what constitutes the "most popular kind of porn", along with other hard, actual (ie not just the authoritative-sounding word of some Valerie Solanis-idolizing women's studies prof) evidence of widespread non-consent, etc. in adult entertainment... And you respond to my other questions, which I asked you first: then I'll do your research for you, and extensively document the readily obvious, ie that Dworkin was batshit nuts, at least by the time she died.

As it is, even her "radfem" allies doubted her odd 1999 tale of drugs, rape and psychic mental telekinetic penis-pursuit by shadowy CIA French waiters.

Of course, if she was nuts (and she was) the standard default response is to "blame the patriarchy™"

[DutchLiberal]

105. I'm sorry, but that's not the way a debate works.

You drop a claim, it's your job to back it up. Other people should not have to do your homework.

[saras]

7. Most people project their fantasies on the porn industry instead of looking at it as it is...

"It's erotica" - about as often as it's accurate medical advice. "Let's curl up on the couch and cuddle with some violent porn."
"It's just a job" - that we get excited about our six-year-old wanting to grow up into. "Oh, a little Colette! How cute!"

[seabeyond]

9. how am i suppose to get turned on watching a girl fearful, screaming, being gang raped

by 6 guys, when i had been raped myself.

my niece asked me not long ago, right before she divorced her porn addicted hubby who insisted she watch and would accuse her of being no fun because she didnt get off on it. but, it is just fantasy, not real.

"Let's curl up on the couch and cuddle with some violent porn." ........ this reminded me of this story. for every person that tells me how great it is, a story has come to me where it has impacted lives not in a positive way.

[freshwest]

11. However, my dear, don't you see that your life experiences have turned you into a prude?

Perhaps you have been unbalanced by them. Don't you know when you complain about porn, you're infringing on someone else's freedom of expression?



I've seen a lot of mocking of women and men who object to pornography, as being close-minded fundies, and shouting them down, such as Tipper Gore.

And good for your husband teaching your son, having this conversation. There is more to life than being a consumer, this is no more necessary to live than this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foie_gras_controversy

[Warren DeMontague]

78. So you think rock and roll needs more censorship?

Heavens, who could possibly consider that a prudish attitude?

[freshwest]

81. Seabeyond, I see Warren is going to answer for you. Myself, I like R &R:

Sex, guns, rock 'n' roll.

You just never know where it's going to go next.

Or where it's already been.

Enjoy.

n/t

[Warren DeMontague]

82. Not real big on Aerosmith, myself.

This is more my speed.

[seabeyond]

84. here is mine....

(and i didnt know this song was about the father rapin the daughter. i make words up to songs and am more into the beat and dancing. my kids roll there eyes adn are always correcting me. but, i love that song).

[freshwest]

85. Best version and shows the dehumanization men go through, like that photo display thread.

To me, those young men looked like rape victims.

[Warren DeMontague]

86. You didnt know that "Janie's got a gun" is about child abuse?

Guess what- "dude looks like a lady" is about a transvestite. You can thank me later.

[DutchLiberal]

34. 'Fearful and screaming'? Then you've been watching the wrong kind of porn.

There's lots of different kinds of porn out there. The violent type is just a minority, a niche, among all other kinds.

But you already knew that, of course. It just didn't fit your agenda to present the whole picture. You had to bring up the most gruesome image you could think of in order to frame the discussion. It's demagoguery.

[Warren DeMontague]

76. This is why so many 2nd wavers have trouble with gay men, transpeople, the BDSM community

They don't fit the narrative.

[redqueen]

17. Yeah, it's very much not just a job.

If we first destroyed the patriarchy, and stopped pandering to men's sexual tastes first and foremost, and didn't have men pressuring women to behave and dress and communicate a certain way... maybe after a few decades of that, we could try the porn experiment again... from within a framework that wasn't set up to cater to the dominant group's dictates and desires. (And if anyone is getting ready to tell me what women like, save it... women grow up internalizing the patriarchy's values, we don't know what women want and we won't until we stop indoctrinating them to see themselves through the male gaze.)

[Warren DeMontague]

53. Sort of like how a free market is possible in a Communist utopia... after Capitalism is destroyed.

Or how we won't have to worry about sin, once the kingdom of Jesus is established on Earth.

Funny, how these goofy unipolar paranoid authoritarian mindsets mirror each other.

[Warren DeMontague]

58. Let me ask you something.

Would you sy that "the patriarchy" is widespread and omnipresent, and "under the patriarchy" could be considered to be the universal or near-universal status of humanity*?


* with the possible exception of isolated communes of separatist lesbian radfems

[enough]

10. Thank you for posting this. (nt)

[redqueen]

18. It is my pleasure.

[freshwest]

12. I'm very impressed with what Hedges says here. And that he agrees with the right. At times women,

Myself included, bash women on the right, who vote GOP and part of it is because of Liberals slapping down women who complain. While we hear more about the hypocrisy of the right regarding pornography, sexual abuse, and the control of women, the Left lost a lot of women in embracing pornography as liberation.

Choosing who you are going to love or have relations with is liberation, not being used for sex, or harassed into having sex. Same as the birth control argument.

When abortion was legalized and the pill was made readily available, the complaint to women who said 'no' was that they were 'prudes' or 'lesbians.' In other words, they were supposed to take care of the results of intercourse as always, but also, not burden the men with marriage and fatherhood, as well.

That doesn't mean that abortion or birth control should be eliminated, nor that other stuff the right spews. A return to the days without women having the final say on their reproduction, is not liberation.

Most men I know who are Liberal don't defend porn. But a lot of men do, and this is also the basis of a lot of hatred of the film and entertainment industry. Because as Hedges says, they haven't bothered to find out what is going on in the sex industry.

Thanks for posting this video so we can discuss this.

[redqueen]

19. Yes, the left likes to pretend that they have it all over the right where women are concerned.

They don't.

Ownership and control comes in both liberal and conservative flavors.

You might enjoy this...

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2571#comic

[Warren DeMontague]

61. I'm sure many progressive women were deeply disappointed that Rick Santorum dropped out.

Since he took the hurty harm harmy hurt of consenting adults watching other consenting adults fuck seriously, and promised to stop it.

[seabeyond]

23. Group sex among adolescents a public health concern, new study says

One in 13 teenage girls, aged 14 to 20, reported having a group-sex experience, with those young women more likely to have been exposed to pornography and childhood sexual abuse than their peers, according to a new study led by a Boston University School of Public Health (BUSPH) researcher.

Of the 7.3 percent who said they had group sex, more than half reported being pressured to engage in the group-sex situation. Forty-five percent reported a lack of condom use by a male participant during the most recent group-sex encounter. Participants with MPS experience also were more likely to report cigarette smoking, dating violence victimization, or ever being diagnosed with a sexually transmitted disease, the study found. In addition, those who had seen pornography in the past month were approximately five times as likely as those who had not seen pornography to report ever having had a group-sex experience.

The average age of the first group-sex experience was 15.6 years old. The majority of those who reported such activity said it was a one-time experience; 21 percent had multiple group-sex experiences. One-third reported using alcohol or drugs prior to their most recent experience, but half of those girls reported that their alcohol or drug use was not voluntary, indicating that they were “liquored up” or drugged by their sexual partner. Multi-person sex “appeared to pose a potential risk to sexual and reproductive health, as only 55 percent of participants reported that condoms were used consistently during their most recent MPS,” Rothman and colleagues said. “The majority of MPS-experienced girls in this sample reported being pressured, threatened, coerced, or forced to participate in MPS at least once.”

“Given the substantial proportion of girls who reported that their MPS was nonconsensual, additional research to understand more about the perpetrators, and how to prevent this particular form of sexual violence, is warranted,” the authors said. “Researchers and clinicians should pay particular attention to younger adolescents engaging in MPS. Given heightened concerns about potential consequences, information about how to address MPS with this subgroup is urgently needed.” The authors noted a “strong association between exposure to pornography, having been forced to do things that their sex partner saw in pornography, and MPS.” Even if participation was voluntary, they said, “it is crucial to know how this early experience shapes their sexual behavior trajectory and affects their lifetime risk for negative sexual, reproductive, and other health risk behaviors.”

http://www.health.am/sex/more/group-sex-among-adolescents/

[Warren DeMontague]

43. People are always concerned about adolescents having sex, b/c its something they never used to do

certainly not when WE were in high school, of course, but now they do, all of a sudden, and isn't it TERRIBLE!

[seabeyond]

50. yes, i can see you would reduce that article to teenagers simply having sex

or you didnt read it, or girls being pressured to do something they dont want to do, does not matter to you.

your call.

[Warren DeMontague]

52. Teens have sex, teens have always had sex.

The people who project a layer of "societal pornification" onto behavior that has always been going on, are people with an agenda.

[seabeyond]

54. again, so you just ignore what the article is saying, or you dont read about girls pressured/forced

to do things they are not comfortable doing, or you just dont care.

[redqueen]

55. Ignoring things and steering discussions off track...

e.g. some "women" won't be happy until... (the two anti porn videos in this forum are men)

Changing the subject to views on Israel, etc.

Anything but an honest discussion.

[Warren DeMontague]

56. You brought up Chomsky, as if he's infallible. He's not.

Heres the bottom line. Is everyone involved a consenting adult? Yes? (if not, prove it) then you know what? If consenting adults want to watch other consenting adults fuck on film, it's NOT YOUR BUSINESS TO TRY TO STOP IT.

I'm sorry for people who have had difficult relationships with men, or for pople whose nieces college roommates brothers wife was a really terrible horrible porn addict who did all sorts of terrible sounding anecdotes, but the fact remains that ADULTS can make ADULT decisions and that includes whether to screw in front of a camera or watch someone else do the same.

On topic enough, there?

[redqueen]

57. No, you implied Hedges was conservative/GOP

I brought up Chomsky because he's not, yet he's also anti porn.

I don't know if you're being intentionally obtuse or what but I'm seriously done attempting to discuss anything with you.

[Warren DeMontague]

59. He's been actively arguing against the democratic party for the past several years

Hes been shilling for Ralph Nader, paid GOP operative.

Now he's doing the dirty work for Rick santorum's and the religious right's culture war, anti porn crusade, continuing a fine tradition started by McKinnon and Dworkin when they palled up with Ed Meese.

[seabeyond]

65. no. many many are not consulting adults but defenders like to ignore that fact, too.

[Warren DeMontague]

67. Authoritative data as per a video on YouTube made by an anti porn group.

Fact is, to appear in porn consent and age verification must be obtained in writing.

Basically, you want to turn every woman who makes choices you don't agree with into a helpless child incapable of consent.

[seabeyond]

70. happy little bow to make it all pretty. i get it. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

73. I'm sure it's very frustrating

Really, you have my sympathy. It must be very irritating to feel not just the need but the entitlement to try to get rid of something that isn't going anywhere.

[Warren DeMontague]

69. So the producers of that video, are they affiliated with the Christian right perchance?

Are they maybe affiliated with "feminist"* Outfits like the AFA or the CWA, who have been responsible for the majority of the dubious "science" (see "erotoxins&quot claiming direct harm from consenting adults watching other consenting adults fuck on film?

*the AFA and CWA are not, by my or Most definitions, actually "feminist", although a small number of agenda minded 2nd wavers have found it convenient to all with them or quote their "research" in the past.

[DutchLiberal]

92. How does one video with anecdotal evidence prove that "many" are not consenting?

Obviously, any women who is forced into the porn business is one too much, but let's put things into perspective, here, as I think both you and requeen have lost all sense of perspective. First, what is "many"? Second, where is your data to back up the claim that "many" are not consenting?

If it's really that obvious to you that many/most women are abused in the porn business, surely you must have a mountain of data to support that, besides an anecdotal video and your gut feeling?

[Warren DeMontague]

95. And we've gone through this. The fact that consent forms are signed and age verification is done

doesn't prove anything, because the anti-porn people just know that porn is full of underage people there against their will.

The reality is, this debate (such as it is) is about consenting adults, and its telling that the anti-porn people are unable or unwilling to make their case without the inevitable retreat to arguments involving non-consent or non adults.

Anything pertaining to either of those situations is illegal and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. But that's not what the anti-porn jihad is about.

[DutchLiberal]

104. I'm all for debating things that are wrong within the porn industry, as I'm sure there are many...

... but I would like to have a debate based on actual data, on facts and figures, on statistics, on any empirical evidence. Not on anecdotal evidence. Like I said to seabeyond: any woman being abused or coerced is one too many, but I don't see how that makes all women in all of porn victims. In fact, I've seen a LOT of behind-the-scenes videos of porn (can't link, because that would violate the TOS) which show that the women in the business don't take shit from nobody. If they don't like the way they're treated, they walk off the set. They simply stop what they were doing and get the f--- out of there. They swear and curse and smack some dudes around if they don't like what's going on. That's the OTHER side of the story. That's the other side of the medallion.

Like in a recent thread about prostitution, I want to have a nuanced debate. I want to show both sides. Not black and white, not 'right' or 'wrong', but to give the FULL picture. Unfortunately, to some here, doing that automatically puts you in the 'denial camp'; the 'I don't care if women are abused because I've got to have my porn'-camp. Any nuance you bring to the discussion, any critical question you ask the other to back up her claim will get you labeled a 'denier' and an 'enabler'. That is not the way to have a reasonable discussion.

I still hope both seabeyond and redqueen will seriously answer my latest posts, because their logic about porn 'influencing' teenagers is exactly the same as the logic conservatives use to blame rap music and video games for juvenile delinquency and I honestly won't believe that is what they meant to say.

[Warren DeMontague]

106. Agreed.

I also think you're dealing with a mentality- and this is the wellspring from which a lot of this noise arises- that honestly believes all hetero sex is inherently oppressive, that the act of, to be blunt, penetration of a woman by a man is inherently "degrading" and not only "harmful" to the woman in question, but ALL women, everywhere.

!

As an ideological goal -you know, the way some of us might hold up "universal health care" as a goal- in some of these circles the "total elimination of penis-in-vagina intercourse" is held up as something that needs to be worked toward, nay even fought for. (Against the wills of the people -men AND women- who like it, even)



I'm not making this crazy-sounding shit up. This is boilerplate basic Andrea Dworkin, for instance. You know, "Feminism 101*"

So it's important, as some 2nd wavers might remind us, to 'view these things through the proper paradigm'... "abuse in porn" isn't the problem, because ALL porn is abuse. All porn is abuse because it depicts, in many cases, a hetero sex act that has already been defined IN AND OF ITSELF as abuse. And because many men get off on it, so there MUST be something wrong with it.


*No this is not indicative of all feminism, certainly not the majority that is post 2nd wave, sex positive and generally not completely out to lunch.

[seabeyond]

64. yes... cannot handle reality to justify wants. better to pretend the happy hooker to salve the ego

really, she wants me sooooo bad, just horney.

[redqueen]

66. The level of denial is depressing. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

71. I know.

The hard wired primate impulse in some hominid females to monitor, control and limit the general sexual availability in hunter gatherer groups that some evolutionary biologists have speculated upon, goes absofuckinglutely bugfuck mad mad mad when confronted with a media rich, modern environment it can't put itself in charge of.

[DutchLiberal]

91. The study mentions pornography and child abuse in relation to group sex.

"with those young women more likely to have been exposed to pornography and childhood sexual abuse than their peers"

Why then the exclusive focus on porn? If both child sexual abuse and pornography, according to this study, are related to group sex experiences, why don't you focus on both, instead of singling out porn? I should think child sexual abuse is equally as important.

Second, from the study I see correlations, no relations. That's an important difference. The study reports a correlation between watching porn and engaging in group sex, but reports no direct causal relations.

Third, as I said to requeen: is porn to blame? Or are parents, teachers and a repressive culture to blame? At age 15, one understands the difference between fiction and reality. I have never seen an extreme porn video, not even at young age, and had the urge to play it out in real life. Never. I don't know anybody who did. The idea that a girl sees a video with a pumped-up blonde artificially screaming and moaning while five guys take her and then thinks this is reality seems ludicrous to me. If so, somebody better teach this kid that when you drop an anvil on your buddy or blow him up with a stick of dynamite, they're not going to survive, like the Looney Tunes did.

The idea that young women are being forced and coerced into group sex is horrible. It's repulsive, it's wrong, it's a serious problem and it should be addressed and dealt with. What shouldn't be done about it, is abusing the problem to further your own anti-porn agenda.

[physioex]

13. So, he is only half right...

He talks a whole lot about the left not taking a stand but neither is the right you pretty much get lip service (no pun intended) not to mention the biggest consumers.

[redqueen]

20. Yes, the most important thing about this industry to politicians is the money.

Neither side wants to do anything about it.

[Warren DeMontague]

75. And what should be "done about it", then?

Hmmm?

[freshwest]

24. Link to what Chris Hedges wrote:

http://www.4case.ca/news_articles_2009/the_illusion_of_love.htm

Not so nice.

[seabeyond]

25. how can you say porn is degrading to women

"I was addicted to porn for two years," says Scott Smith, 29, from Cleveland, Tenn., who is at the Pink Cross booth. He first watched Internet porn as a college student. "I started out once a day, usually at night, when my roommate wasn't there," Smith says. "You try and hide it. Then I started watching it several times a day. I would only watch it long enough to masturbate. I never got why they make these long features since I would always turn it off when I was done." Smith says the images crippled his ability to be intimate. He could not distinguish between the fantasy of porn and the reality of relationships. "Porn messes with the way you think of women," he says. "You want the women you are with to be like the women in porn. I was scared to get involved in a relationship. I did not know how extensive the damage was. I did not want to hurt anyone. I kept away from women."

*

She had been promised $1,000 for her first film. She was handed $600 when the scene was done. She also contracted gonorrhea. Porn stars are tested for HIV and sexually transmitted diseases once a month, but "people do so many scenes between tests that a month is a long time." She began, once she had treated her gonorrhea, to do films three or four times a month. She would have several more bouts with gonorrhea and other sexually transmitted diseases during her career. She got pregnant and had an abortion. The demands on her began to escalate. She was filmed with multiple partners. Her scenes became "extremely rough. They would pull my hair, slap me around like a rag doll. "The next day my whole body would ache," she recalls. "It happened a lot, the aching. It used to be that only a few stars, people like Linda Lovelace, would once do things like anal. Now it is expected." She became a staple in "gonzo" porn films. Gonzo movies are usually filmed in a house or hotel room. They are porn verite. The performers often acknowledge the camera and speak to it. Gonzo films push the boundaries of porn and often include a lot of violence, physical abuse and a huge number of partners in succession. According to the magazine Adult Video News, "Gonzo, non-feature fare is the overwhelmingly dominant porn genre since it's less expensive to produce than plot-oriented features, but just as importantly, is the fare of choice for the solo stroking consumer who merely wants to cut to the chase, get off on the good stuff, then, if they really wanna catch some acting, plot and dialog, pop in the latest Netflix disc." Roldan would endure numerous penetrations by various men in a shoot, most of them "super-rough." As she talks of her career in porn, her eyes take on a dead, faraway look. Her breathing becomes more rapid. She slips into a flat, numbing monotone. The symptoms are ones I know well from interviewing victims of atrocities in war who battle posttraumatic stress disorder.

*

"You have to do what they want on the sets," she says. "There's too much competition. They can always find other girls. Girls bring in their friends and get kickbacks. They feel like stars. They get attention. It's all about the spotlight. It's all about me. They have notoriety. They don't realize the degradation. Besides, this is a whole generation raised on porn. They're jaded and don't even ask if it is wrong. They fall into it. They get into drugs to numb themselves. They get their asses ripped. Their uterus hemorrhages. They get HPV and herpes, and they turn themselves off emotionally and die. They check out mentally. They get PTSD like Vietnam vets. They don't know who they are. They live a life of shopping and drugs. They don't buy real estate. They party, and in the end they have nothing to show for it except, like me, genital herpes and fake boobs." "Porn is like any other addiction," Lubben says. "First, you are curious. Then you need harder and harder drugs to get off. You need gang bangs and bestiality and child porn. Porn gets grosser and grosser. We never did ass-to-mouth when I was in the industry. Now you get an award for it. And meanwhile the addicts make their wives feel like they can't live up to the illusion of the porn star. The addict asks, 'Why can't she give blow jobs like a porn star?' He wants what isn't real. Porn destroys intimacy. I can always tell if a man is a porn addict. They're shut down. They can't look me in the eyes. They can't be intimate."

*

The male stars are encouraged to be rough and hostile. Some, she says, "hated women. They would spit in my face. I was devastated the first time that happened, but I thought it was good they were rough because of my abusive relationships. I thought roughness in porn was OK. I would say, 'Treat me like a little slut,' or 'I'm your bitch,' or 'F**k me like a whore.' I would say the most degrading things I could say about myself because I thought this was what it meant to be sexy and what people wanted to hear, or at least the people who buy the films. You are just a slut to those who watch. You are nothing. They want to see that we know that." She would shoot scenes with men who disgusted her, whose sweat and smell "made me cringe." And when the lights went off and the cameras stopped, she would stumble off the set in pain, her face often covered with semen. "Sometimes they would hand you a paper towel to wipe your face off," she says, "and sometimes they would say, 'Don't touch us. You're gross.' I remember the first time I had come all over my face. I was so pissed off, but I took it. I pretended to like everything they did. I took pride in being a good gonzo girl. My fame came from this."

[seabeyond]

26. manwin. man win.

Sites like YouPorn have moved the mainstream of pornography to the extreme. The mainstream now would have been considered extremely hardcore 20 years ago. Go onto one of the main hub sites, and there are adverts on the homepage showing women being violently abused - choked, strangled, slapped, thrown across the room, forced to crawl on all floors. Their faces show they're clearly in agony and distress, because that's what apparently gets the consumer off. I thought Japanese cartoon pornography, with its rape and even murder fantasies, was pretty sick - well, it's become normal in our culture too. The sites are called things like PunishTube, Pornstar Discipline, AbuseWeb. They sell rape fantasies, pure and simple, right on the homepage of the biggest porn websites in the world.

*

Much of the violent content is made by a company called Brazzers, whose slogan is 'Our girls like it rough'. The same company also owns sites like YouPorn and RedTube. It's perhaps the biggest porn company in the world. Brazzers was set up by some Canadian students in around 2005: Ouissam Youssef, Youssef and Stephane Manos, Feras Antoon and Matt Keezer. The name was a joke of their mainly (Christian) Middle Eastern origins - Brazzers as a foreign pronunciation of 'Brothers'. They then set up the sites PornHub, YouPorn, RedTube and others, and before long these 20-something geeks were the kings of porn - their sites were the number one Google search result for 'porn' and 'sex', and were in the top 100 websites in the world.

Brazzers moved porn from the Hugh Hefner 'old duffer in a velvet jacket' model of pornography to a Porn 2.0 version made by younger IT nerds who knew what IT nerds wanted: more cartoon fake boobs, more hardcore sex, more older women with younger men fantasies, more 'reality porn' or 'Gonzo porn' where frat-boys 'pick up' women off the street, put them in van and screw them; and more violent and abusive sex. The flipside of the frat-boy solidarity ('hey, us guys are all 'brazzers', right? High five!') is a fear / hatred of women, a sense they must be made to kneel, suffer, submit. But these young guys saw themselves as internet entrepreneurs first and foremost, and they were clearly concerned about their reputations. Ouissam Youssef's website, for example, makes no mention of his success in the porn industry, but does declare his support for charities - perhaps revealingly, he wants to set up a foundation for autism, and he also supports World Vision, a Christian charity. Matt Keezer says he supports Unicef, the children's charity. Stephane Manos is a member of a strange Christian organisation called AHEPA, and also supports a bipolar association and a 'children's telethon'.

Obviously somewhat conflicted souls. Perhaps because of this, they sold all their businesses - Brazzers and the sites like YouPorn - to a 32-year-old German called Fabian Thylmann (shown on the left), for an estimated $140 million. All the porn assets are controlled by the appropriately-named Manwin, now one of the biggest web companies in the world, and probably the biggest porn company (it recently signed a deal to take over the running of Playboy's TV channels). Thylmann has been called one of the 'global power brokers' of the porn industry. Once again, the company makes a big thing of its 'social responsibility', and support for child protection laws and safe sex. You would never guess, looking at its sleek website with its image of a gleaming glass skyscraper, that the company makes profits from rape fantasy sites like PunishTube. If ever Patrick Bateman ran a company, I think it would look and act like Manwin.

http://www.politicsofwellbeing.com/2012/03/porn-corporations-are-selling-violent.html

[freshwest]

27. From your link. But you'll only hear the sound of crickets:

Liberalism has a blindspot when it comes to pornography. Liberals see it as a freedom issue - adults should be free to watch porn if they want, so long as no-one is harmed in the making of it. Adults should also be free to make porn if they want. Companies should be free to sell porn.

No one wants to oppose pornography, for fear it will make them look Victorian and repressed, like Mary Whitehouse. To oppose porn might be seen as 'weird' - to accept it and giggle at it is normal.

In fact, just about the only male journalist I can think of who has raised any concerns about the massive global pornography industry and its effect on all of us is Chris Hedges, a Pulitzer Prize-winning war correspondent who has become something of a moral voice in journalism.

In his 2008 book, Empire of Illusion, he asserted that porn is a particularly vicious form of corporate slavery, in which women are commodified, abused and traumatised for the pleasure of male consumers and the multi-billion-dollar profit of corporations.

[redqueen]

28. If only it was shocking, how consistently this is ignored.

This is part of the reason I've become so radical. No other group besides women has so thoroughly internalized their own oppression.

[seabeyond]

29. No other group besides women has so thoroughly internalized their own oppression.

[Warren DeMontague]

60. It's the damn snitzwaffles

All that cultural flubbernatz, gumming up the himzitlsngstroms.

[DutchLiberal]

35. Actually, it's the other way around.

YouPorn is mostly about amateur couples and not extreme at all. It is the 'amateur' style that has risen in the past few years --porn that looks like home-taped sex with 'normal' couples. And, as you can guess, most of that is not extreme or abusive. Just consenting adults having sex, like what happens in most bedrooms.

The article got the facts wrong. But it suits your one-sided, deceptive and incomplete framing.

YouPorn sucks anyway.

[redqueen]

30. This deserves a kick.

It deserves a lot more than that, but... well... this is the world we live in.

[Warren DeMontague]

38. One thing about porn, it's an excellent way for some people to waste time.

So I suppose every minute Chris hedges is busy echoing rick santorum's alarmist, pro censorship rhetoric in an anti porn crusade, he can't be stumping for Ralph Nader or trying to get people not to vote for Obama.

[Warren DeMontague]

62. Despite an utter lack of any data whatsoever, anecdotally there sure seems to be a problem

in that the outraged people who are absolutely positively positive that porn is terrible, are simply aghast that it's here and it's not going anywhere.

Sort of like how the drug warriors can't get 70 million Americans to stop smoking pot. It's a real crisis.

[ProudProgressiveNow]

80. Thx for posting. nt

[Warren DeMontague]

83. Chris Hedges: "I Stand With The Right Wing"

Yeah. Big fucking shock, from Mr. Bash Obama, Bash The Democrats, Basically Bash everyone except your religious right theocratic pals, your phony paid GOP spoiler candidates, and your corporate financiers.