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elleng

(130,895 posts)
Mon Feb 19, 2018, 10:53 PM Feb 2018

District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

“Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited…”. It is “…not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.”

“Nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.”

“We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller (an earlier case) said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time”. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of ‘dangerous and unusual weapons.’ ”

The court even recognizes a long-standing judicial precedent “…to consider… prohibitions on carrying concealed weapons.”

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/554/570/

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MadDAsHell

(2,067 posts)
1. Im confused by the (longstanding prohibitions on...mental illness) part...
Mon Feb 19, 2018, 11:05 PM
Feb 2018

Since this decision was from 2008, but the media keeps referring to Trump ending “Obama’s restrictions” regarding mental illness.

appalachiablue

(41,131 posts)
3. This might help. See #3, 11-15, etc. The position of the ACLU
Tue Feb 20, 2018, 12:48 AM
Feb 2018

and others on this issue isn't very well known and understood, seems to me.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10141991516

TomSlick

(11,098 posts)
2. The Heller decision is fundamentally flawed.
Tue Feb 20, 2018, 12:28 AM
Feb 2018

The holding of the decision was to ignore the "well regulated militia" context in finding that the Second Amendment confers a personal right. The dicta about limitations was a vague bone to those concerned about the lengths to which the NRA thinks the Second Amendment runs. It is not particularly alarming to find that there are limits to all rights.

My hope is that the Court would seize on the dicta in upholding real regulations if the marvelous kids in Florida really do get the ball moving.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
8. Heller allows an AWB and registration, among other things
Tue Feb 20, 2018, 04:50 PM
Feb 2018

how can that be fundamentally flawed? What else do you want?

TomSlick

(11,098 posts)
9. Heller is fundamentally flawed because
Tue Feb 20, 2018, 09:43 PM
Feb 2018

it is based on a bit of historical sophistry to conclude that the "well regulated militia" clause of the Second Amendment is essentially meaningless and that the right to bear arms is a personal and not a collective right. Such was the holding of the case.

There is nothing in Heller that allows an automatic weapons ban. The Court references automatic weapons bans among the types of legislation that would not accomplish the stated purpose of the D.C. legislation.

With reference to gun registration, the Court engaged in a lengthy discussion of the legislation scheme enacted by D.C. that did two things. First, it made illegal the possession of unregistered handguns AND forbade the registration of handguns. In addition to being too cute by half, the scheme was a transparent handgun ban without a clear statement to that effect.

The Court noted the obvious that no Constitutional rights are unlimited. In dicta, the Court stated: "Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms." Importantly, the Court did not say that such restrictions would be permissible, only that the opinion did not say they were not.

Referencing United States v. Miller, 307 U.S. 174 (1939), the Court noted "We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those 'in common use at the time.'" The reference to Miller is odd since that case upheld a ban against sawed-off shotguns because such weapons were not historically used by militias. It seems unlikely that the Court's reference to weapons in common use at the time of the adoption of the Second Amendment was intended to limit the right to possess weapons to muzzle loading flintlocks. It seems likely the Court would approve some limitation of the right to possess weapons (e.g. tanks and chemical agents). However, there is nothing in Heller to provide clear guidance concerning the acceptable limits of such limitations.

What needs to be done is for common sense firearms regulations to be enacted. They will, all most certainly, be challenged in the Courts. Perhaps the Court will provide clearer guidance.










TomSlick

(11,098 posts)
11. Perhaps I am being unclear.
Tue Feb 20, 2018, 11:41 PM
Feb 2018

I was responding to the OP which stated that Heller allowed for restrictions on the possession of firearms by felons, the mentally ill, etc. I was pointing out that such was not the holding of Heller.

One of the things taught in law school is to distinguish the holding of a case from its obiter dictum. The holding of Heller is that the "well regulated militia" clause notwithstanding, the Second Amendment confers a personal right to possess firearms without any reference to participation in a militia. Heller states the obvious that no Constitutional right is absolute and then - in dicta - suggests that there is some type of restriction on the Second Amendment that would be upheld. Heller did not, as suggested in the OP, state that restrictions on the possession of firearms by felons, etc. would be upheld - although it seems likely they would be. The purpose of my response was to warn against reading too much into dicta.

The only thing Heller prevents is a complete ban on the possession of all handguns by all persons. So, I guess the answer to your question is that there is nothing that I want that Heller prevents. I would have preferred that the Court not engage in mental gymnastics and disregard the Miller decision to find that the Second Amendment right is a personal right not tied to a "well regulated militia."



elleng

(130,895 posts)
12. The OP is SYLLABUS OCTOBER TERM, 2007 DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA V. HELLER
Wed Feb 21, 2018, 12:07 AM
Feb 2018

Official Supreme Court case law is only found in the print version of the United States Reports. Justia case law is provided for general informational purposes.

From the Decision:

'III

Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited. From Blackstone through the 19th-century cases, commentators and courts routinely explained that the right was not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. . .

Although we do not undertake an exhaustive historical analysis today of the full scope of the Second Amendment, nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.[Footnote 26]

We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. Miller said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those “in common use at the time.” 307 U. S., at 179. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of “dangerous and unusual weapons.” . .

We are aware of the problem of handgun violence in this country, and we take seriously the concerns raised by the many amici who believe that prohibition of handgun ownership is a solution. The Constitution leaves the District of Columbia a variety of tools for combating that problem, including some measures regulating handguns, see supra, at 54–55, and n. 26. But the enshrinement of constitutional rights necessarily takes certain policy choices off the table. These include the absolute prohibition of handguns held and used for self-defense in the home. Undoubtedly some think that the Second Amendment is outmoded in a society where our standing army is the pride of our Nation, where well-trained police forces provide personal security, and where gun violence is a serious problem. That is perhaps debatable, but what is not debatable is that it is not the role of this Court to pronounce the Second Amendment extinct.

We affirm the judgment of the Court of Appeals.'

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/554/570/opinion.html

TomSlick

(11,098 posts)
13. I'm sorry. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me?
Wed Feb 21, 2018, 12:20 AM
Feb 2018

The language you inserted is from the decision. The language you inserted is explanatory and not necessary to the holding of the case. It is obiter dictum.

Paladin

(28,254 posts)
6. Not even an evil old prick like Scalia would fully side with the pro-gun radicals.
Tue Feb 20, 2018, 02:35 PM
Feb 2018

And if ever there was a gift-wrapped judicial bounty to a political movement, the Heller decision was it.

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