Jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty

[onehandle]

Source: MSNBC

A Florida jury finds George Zimmerman not guilty.

Zimmerman, 29, said he was acting in self-defense when he shot the unarmed Trayvon Martin, 17, in the chest during an altercation in a gated community of Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26. 2012.

He was not charged for 44 tumultuous days in which the case generated large protests in several cities, turned a hooded sweatshirt like the one Martin wore into a symbol of solidarity, and drew the attention of President Obama, who said, “If I had a son, he’d look like Trayvon.”

As debate over race, guns and Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law swirled, a special prosecutor appointed by the governor announced April 11, 2012 that Zimmerman was being charged with second-degree murder – a move that his supporters said was meant to quell the public outcry.

Read more: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/13/19441838-jury-finds-george-zimmerman-not-guilty?lite

---

His shysters are grinning like hyenas.

Gun Nuts Have A New God!

My wife and I have been thinking of selling our Florida timeshare.

Decision made.

Update: I just contacted a reputable reseller via email.

[LiberalElite]

1. I don't feel so good

[laserhaas]

191. Neither do I - it is a sad day for America - and its lost sense of justice.

[jessie04]

2. Total bullshit!!!

[NewJeffCT]

3. disappointing

but, not a surprise.

[Travis_0004]

4. I predicted this

Nobody listened to me.

[Kennah]

45. I think a lot of us had a sick feeling it would happen.

[PatrynXX]

71. it was an all white jury

go figure.

[OnlinePoker]

79. All female, including, if I recall, 5 mothers.

I would have thought that would favor at least a manslaughter conviction.

[meow2u3]

80. It was a predominantly white jury

The 6th juror was a minority, but the race was not disclosed.

[1StrongBlackMan]

291. From what I understand ...

the 6th juror is Hispanic.

[Kablooie]

200. I hope the media accosts those women and gives them a difficult next few weeks.

[davidpdx]

265. No, we really don't want that

People who serve on jury duty should be allowed to have their privacy. It is a duty they upheld, regardless of the disappointment most of us feel about the verdict.

[John2]

297. People were

suspicious of that jury from the beginning. You got to admit it. five white women and one mixed women. No Black on the jury out of 20 percent of Sanford being Black. The Defense was allowed to strike every Black person but the judge allowed some questionable jurors on that jury, just like she allowed other things in the case for the defense.

I felt people were trying to give her cover and that jury because they were female. We do have women in this country with children like Sarah Palin. Just because you are a woman doesn't mean you are race neutral. Some women can be more racist than men. That is the real world. As far as I'm concerned, that verdict was a travesty of justice no matter their supporters claim. I'll never forget it as long as I live. I didn't believe for one moment the bullshit story the defense put out and only racists would believe that crap. I suggest Black people start carrying more guns. There is no justice in this dam country. You can't trust the police either as far as I'm concerned or certain judges. That is just how it is in this country.

[JDPriestly]

330. Members of the OJ jury spoke up and explained their verdict.

It would be helpful if they did that here even if they don't show their faces or state their names.

[davidpdx]

331. I totally agree

Also what they say could inflame things even more.

[BigD_95]

207. Who gives a shit

The defended was not white. Why is everything about race

[ChazII]

210. The media called him White Hispanic.

Good question though. I fear our country will never reach Dr. King's goal of judging by character.

[Carolina]

285. "Why is everything about race.."

Oh puhleeze, if you can't see that Trayvon was racially profiled and then further vilified by being depicted as a menacing black thug while the real thug was painted as a helpless innocent defending his mostly white neighborhood where black punks were frequent marauders and then that real thug was acquitted by whites and likely a "white Hispanic"... then you're just willfully blind

[John2]

299. I don't

think we can no longer look the other way. Peopler who excuse what happened last night can play it off all they want but this was about race and the jury wasn't race neutral. Somebody call them a bunch of teabaggers and they were right on.

[1StrongBlackMan]

293. Because this country ...

and it's people, have a long history with respect to race and justice denied.

[Flatulo]

321. George Zimmerman made it about race when he decided to follow Trayvon.

If it was a white kid passing through, he wouldn't have given him a second look.

[joesdaughter]

5. Sad n/t

[Spitfire of ATJ]

6. This is going to get ugly around here.

[gopiscrap]

7. That is so fucked up

[Marthe48]

8. Open season on unarmed pedestrians

If Zimmerman hadn't got out of the car, young Trevon Martin wouldn't be dead. What a freaking travesty of justice, again.

[Niceguy1]

34. how?

Is the law going to change because the DA didn't do a good job?. I think he his guilty but in reality there were more opinions than actual evidence.

[killbotfactory]

42. If you walk on a sidewalk, you are a potential threat to someone. nt

[Niceguy1]

51. only

A fool eould think that and would find himself in hot water quickly....the law has not changed.

[Marthe48]

77. He just got away with murder

The law won't change, but I bet people who are ok with this verdict don't much care about the law.

[blkmusclmachine]

178. +1. "The people who are ok with this verdict don't much care about the law..'

[book_worm]

9. A travesty--but not surprised given the trial.

[valerief]

10. Was the jury intellectually handicapped? WTF is wrong with them? nt

[Mr.Bill]

17. The prosecution was.

[George II]

78. Certainly not a jury "of their peers" - either for the victim or the perpetrator

[Shrek]

121. Reasonable doubt

Apparently they thought the state failed to meet its burden.

[Skittles]

11. no, he is guilty

but fear and ignorance trumps justice

[MuseRider]

12. Very sad,

very sad.

[B Stieg]

13. A loss for America.

[AgingAmerican]

14. I feel so angry right now

This is the new normal

[heaven05]

15. shit

I said he would walk.

[SamKnause]

16. Verdict

Pitiful, absolutely pitiful.

[ReRe]

18. Wonder what is going on outside the courthouse now? n/t

[Common Sense Party]

32. Just showed a few people chanting "No justice, no peace." nt

[ReRe]

204. I didn't agree with the verdict...

... but I hope everyone can remain peaceful. When I heard the verdict, I turned the TV and computer off. I blame the prosecution and the Sanford PD. GZ got away with murder, got rich and became an idol for American vigilante-ism. What more can I say....

[truth2power]

302. About the points you made...

I agree..he got away with murder. I don't blame the prosecution but I do blame the Sanford PD because this would never have come to trial at all but for the public outcry.

I'm sure GZ is now very wealthy because of those who donated to his cause (that of profiting from the death of an innocent boy).

And yes, vigilante-ism has been made acceptable to some elements of the American population. Heaven help us all!

As to why I don't blame the prosecution, I'm still struggling with WTH everyone else saw that I didn't. I watched the trial from about day 8 to the end (don't ask why I didn't realize it was being live-streamed before that).

IMO, the prosecution did an admirable job with what they had. The defense, OTOH, had GZ's mother (what was she going to say, that her son was a loser?), his uncle peddling some cockamamie story about hearing Georgie scream, and Mr. West prancing around with a chunk of concrete. Bleh!

I am absolutely dumbfounded by all of this.

[truth2power]

19. How in God's name they could have found him not guilty of manslaughter

at the very least, I don't know.

I predict we will hear more from Zimmerman in the future. Just like with OJ.

[NotThisTime]

27. For the same reason they couldn't find Casey Anthony guilty of parental neglect

[truth2power]

52. I don't remember enough of the details of Casey Anthony to compare, but maybe you're

thinking of some overriding reason.

[ET Awful]

64. Prosecutorial incompetence. n/t

[truth2power]

89. I do not mean this to be a snark, but you must have been watching

a different trial than I was.

[ET Awful]

142. In both this and the Anthony case, had the prosecution better prepared and presented

their case, the verdict would have been very different.

[duffyduff]

197. Not the same thing.

The prosecution in the CA case didn't even know how Caylee died. How in the hell COULD the jury convict in that case?

Here it was obvious what happened. Zimmerman was guilty, and the verdict was wrong.

[raccoon]

30. I was thinking that too. I bet just like OJ he'll get himself into trouble

again and next time won't be able to beat the rap, I hope.

[AngryOldDem]

112. The prosecutors apparently had a different approach to the evidence that we did.

If it were me, I would have hammed home every single, damned day of the trial that Zimmerman created the situation that led to Trayvon defending himself. If anyone had a right to "stand your ground," it was Trayvon. Not some wanna-be pretend cop who wanted to be a hero and who instigated a situation that DID NOT have to end with a dead kid.

How long will it be before George is back out at the condos protecting residents from teenagers and others who are armed with a can of Arizona Iced Tea and a bag of Skittles?

Just fucking fucked up, is what this bullshit is.

[truth2power]

134. I can't say it any better than you did.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

336. This is (among) the problems...

with "Stand Your Ground" and other "Self Defense" laws. They blur the line between the assailant and the victim.

If I understand the reasoning, Zimmerman is allowed to use deadly force if he feels his life is in danger, even if he's the one who instigated to confrontation. Martin was kicking Zimmerman's ass in the fight he himself started, and so Zimmerman fell back on superior firepower.

Interesting....

So I'm robbing a convenience store. I've taken the cash and I'm attempting to leave the premises when the clerk reaches under the counter for a .38 and starts blazing away at me. I return fire because it's either him or me. I kill the clerk.

I can't think of a jurisdiction where I would be charged with aggravated homicide (or whatever the local equivalent would be). But the Zimmerman acquittal seems to say that it doesn't make any difference who did what to whom. As long as my life is in danger, I can kill the other person. I didn't go into the store intending to kill the clerk, and I only fired back because he shot at me first.

So I'm a rapist and the woman I attempted to assault has either a) and gun in her purse or b) a black belt. And now I feel threatened....

We've just opened an interesting can or worms.

[dipsydoodle]

272. I'm UK - extremely hard for me to understand too.

We've not got the offense of 2nd degree murder so here so charges would've been either murder or manslaughter and possibly other charges too such as inflicting grievous bodily harm aka GBH , inflicting grievous bodily injury etc. The fact remains the lad died so here I'm guessing manslaughter at least would've have been a given. That's obviously aside from illegal possession of a firearm and the separate offense of discharging one.

When I saw the headline I thought it was a sadly misplaced sick joke : our juries here don't sit at weekends.

[AsahinaKimi]

20. why is it I thought it would

come to this? very disappointed.

[awoke_in_2003]

47. Because, unfortunately...

white on black crimes are not judged the same way black on white crimes are.

[NotThisTime]

21. The legal system is a complete sham in this Country, how many sham trials is Florida going to have

before people wake up to it.

[MirrorAshes]

22. fuck fuck FUCK

SO WRONG

[BlueJazz]

23. I am truly ashamed of a part of America

[rurallib]

24. just got away with murder

[valerief]

35. ^^^THIS^^^

[Carolina]

133. Yep

Legally sanctioned lynching... How anyone could say this was not about race is beyond me.

[Common Sense Party]

25. I'm a little surprised they didn't rule for manslaughter

But the prosecution didn't do well.

[complain jane]

148. I'm very surprised.

[ileus]

26. 6 female jury, I never imagined that would be the verdict.

[awoke_in_2003]

50. I figured at least a hung jury. nt

[avaistheone1]

56. My hope was that women could be more compassionate and thoughtful too.

I see that is not the case.

Look what they have delivered to Trayvon's mother and father.

[ileus]

63. That was my thoughts exactly.

[avaistheone1]

84. This press conference is a joke and very insensitive.

This woman with pearls is disgusting.

She should shut up. Her smiles and pontificating is unbelievable.

Quit grandstanding and shut up whoever you are lady.

What a patronizing woman!

[avaistheone1]

105. Who is the awful garish woman grandstanding, smiling and conducting this press conference?

[24601]

158. I believe you were seeing the State's Attorney from the 4th District. She and her team are still

facing a post-trial sanctions hearing, accused of not complying with discovery rules and not being truthful with the judge.

I should point out that they also have a presumption of innocence.

[DallasNE]

163. The Whole Culture Of The South Is Different

And that applies to both men and women. Frankly, I always thought there needed to be at least one male on the jury so grappling could be explained and understood. Perhaps they need to go back to 12 person juries so there is greater diversity of life experiences to help sort out various issues.

[marshall]

295. I found Jesse Jackson's comment very insightful

He said the jury was not composed of peers because the victim and suspect are both male, suggesting that a jury of women, and mostly white women, is somehow innately inadequate to the task.

[MissDeeds]

28. Oh my god

This is so horribly wrong. The kid did nothing wrong and that bastard killed him in cold blood - and he got away with it. His poor parents.
I'm in tears... what have we become?

[avaistheone1]

29. The quality of justice is extremely poor in Florida.

[valerief]

38. Just look at the criminal governor. nt

[avaistheone1]

61. Yes.

The fish rots from the top.

[Igel]

245. Sorry, that's "The fish rots from the head."

It doesn't rot from the top.

Actually, it doesn't much rot from the head, either, if it's not cleaned, but that's the proverb. If it's not cleaned it rots from the guts.

[tabasco]

287. Gee, thanks for clearing that up

[adirondacker]

157. I'm fairly certain Florida isn't an exception in this country. nt

[alp227]

170. Yep. Remember Casey Anthony? N/t

[avaistheone1]

173. I was j u s t thinking about that case.

Another shocking verdict.

I think Florida hates children. I believed that for years.

[duffyduff]

199. Lots of reasonable doubt there. The jury was correct in that case. n/t

[lancer78]

234. Lots of reasonable doubt here as well

[heaven05]

31. just

legalized modern day lynching for WWB. America, I give up on your ignorance and stupidity. This is shameful. 5 white women and one hispanic all gave a license to kill again to this zimpig POS.

[OldRedneck]

33. Open season on young black men wearing hoodies

[Capt.Rocky300]

36. Hunting season is now open on African Americans in Florida.

[heaven05]

46. not

just florida.

[Capt.Rocky300]

66. You're right. I stand corrected. Sad

[heaven05]

90. I

am truly enraged at this travesty. Well zimpig got his day in court and murder was legalized. Trayvon Martin has been insulted and lynched again-twice. This country is for the birds. RW birds of prey.

[oberliner]

37. Hopefully he will eventually find the real killer

Perhaps a mirror would be helpful.

[jtuck004]

39. Just another town where it's not illegal to kill a black person. n/t

[SCVDem]

40. Right wing whites win again

Great graphic Onehandle

Fuck that state!

[kylie5432]

41. The fix was in

You are fucking kidding me? This country is going backwards when a black boy cannot even walk to the store.....

I teach in an inner city area and am wondering what the reaction will be on Monday at summer school.

I thought the prosecution did a great job- especially the closing statement. The fix was in,

[zonkers]

43. My heart goes out the Martin family.

[oberliner]

44. Not a single African-American on the jury

How can that not have some impact?

[Pterodactyl]

306. One of them may have been African American.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Zimmerman_trial#Jury

Jury

On June 20, 2013 jury selection was completed. Six jurors and four alternates were selected. All six of the jurors are female, two of the alternate jurors are male and two female. Five of the jurors are white, one is black or Hispanic. All of the alternates are white (one male alternate has been described as possibly Hispanic).[69] The jury was sworn in, and all remaining potential jurors were dismissed.

[sorefeet]

48. He is far from a free man

He will have to move and watch his back the rest of his life. Unless some Ted Nugent protects him.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

67. The feds can step in on a "denial of constitutional rights" basis like they did with the KKK...

Which is weird considering the NSA flap.

[hatrack]

101. Yes, they'll come in with both feet, like they did with Goldman Sachs, right?

On edit: Going back to (and piggybacking off) the OP, I've never been overwhelmed by the desire or interest in visiting Florida. Now I know I never will.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

109. Yeah,...Al Sharpton just started going on about that....

Meanwhile I bet on FOX "News" they're calling upon MSNBC to fire Sharpton claiming this case is like Tawana Brawley all over again.

[SwankyXomb]

153. Wait a little while

and those posts will probably be popping up here.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

164. Yeah,...we'll see videos of the clowns at FOX "News" gloating with their usual smug superiority....

I refuse to let them bother me.

Let America watch them be total assholes dancing on Trayvon's grave. They act like the parents aren't going to get sympathy as they rub their faces in their dead kid's blood and elevate his killer to the status of hero.

You KNOW it will happen. They have no shame.

[blkmusclmachine]

185. +1. "They have no shame."

[7962]

324. And now Zimmerman sues NBC:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2013/07/14/zimmerman-lawyer-to-move-asap-against-nbc-news/

And he'll probably win, its so blatant. But if the Martin family sues HIM and wins, he wont see any of it.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

332. I expect his lawyers to sue the NAACP next.

[7962]

337. I don't know, NAACP hasnt done what NBC did

The whole NBC thing shouldve cost somebody their job. How could they think they wouldnt get caught?
I dont know what he could sue the NAACP FOR; they have only asked for investigations, etc.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

339. "The whole NBC thing shouldve cost somebody their job"

It did.

[7962]

340. Good. Thanks for the update!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

341. Figured it would be easy to find.

[kestrel91316]

327. You're not missing much. Endless same-same tract homes surrounded by endless palmettos.

And hot, swampy climate.

I can't stand the place. Breaks my heart that my niece and her husband are there. And it scares me, because he is a dark-skinned South Asian.

[alp227]

176. Same went for the Rodney King case after the officers were acquitted in state court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rodney_King#Federal_trial_of_officers

[Spitfire of ATJ]

180. Right. It's also how the feds got involved in KKK cases as murder is a state matter.

[Lee-Lee]

273. No

That only works if it is someone working as a government official in some sort.

[Morganfleeman]

282. Exactly

Rodney King was completely different. Those officers were charged with a Section 1983 violation which is where a government agent acts under the color of law to infringe someone's constitutational rights. The only possible law that may remotely apply is the Sheperd Byrd hate crimes law. That has rarely been used and there is a high threshold for a successful prosecution as you have to prove racial animus beyond a reasonable doubt.

[pasto76]

230. bullshit. bullshit BULLSHIT

what is he doing right now? sleeping in his bed. Probably gonna eat mcdonalds hotcakes (like 6 orders) tomorrow morning.

if he is killed within a week, I'll come back and say I was wrong. My money is that we never hear much from him again nor will anyone else.

tell us that isnt freedom. "he'll have to watch his back". please. spare us the drama. He'll move to the southwest and live another 50 years.

[tblue]

49. If I had one, I'd sell it too.

Oh how awful.

[RBInMaine]

53. Sue him for unlawful death.

Take a shot at a civil suit for unlawful death. Drag him through it all over again. There was a strong manslaughter case here. Obviously they bought the self defense argument. Too bad.

[Kennah]

72. Florida has immunity from civil and criminal prosecution for self defense

His legal bills get paid for the criminal trial, and no civil suit will be permitted.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.032.html

FS 776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force

[truth2power]

75. He should definitely be sued for wrongful death.

[SunSeeker]

107. Well they could if this happened in California, but not in Florida.

Florida law that says you can't be civilly liable if you are found not guilty based on self defense.
http://blogs.findlaw.com/injured/2012/03/can-trayvons-family-sue-zimmerman-in-civil-court.html

However, they may be able to sue the Homeowners' Association.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/04/09/1081839/-Trayvon-Martin-s-parents-could-potentially-sue-homeowners-association#

[premium]

168. They've already sued the HOA and settled out of court. nt.

[blkbear]

54. What happens when you lose a fist fight ?

George Zimmerman lost a fist fight and then he went ghetto, pulled out his gun to get even.

[cstanleytech]

55. Bad decision imo. nt

[Kennah]

57. Do Not Pass Jail. Go Directly To Fox News. Dear Gaia.

[Danmel]

58. how disturbing

How are you defending yourself when you instigate the contact? Of course. It is totally rational to be so afraid of a black kid in a hoodie that you
have to shoot him. Depressing. I have a 19 year old son, but we are white, so I don't have to worry that he will get shot or frisked or just stopped. My African American friends always have to worry about their sons. It is just so totally wrong. Some stupid crazy wanna be cop can get away with murder. awful.

[azurnoir]

59. I wish I could say this was unexpected but I can not

what I can say is that disgusting sickening indefensible doesn't begin to cover it

[rpannier]

60. I think he was guilty

But the question is, "Did teh prosecution make their case?"
If they didn't, then not guilty

[totodeinhere]

62. I call upon the Justice Department to indict Zimmerman for a civil rights violation.

Folks, this isn't over. Acquitting a killer of innocent black people in the South is nothing new. Now it's up to the Justice Department to see that justice is finally done.

[avaistheone1]

70. I hope the Trayvon's mother and father plan their own civil suit.

George Zimmerman deserves to own nothing. Strip him of his assets.

[jmowreader]

91. They can't

Because of the Fucked Up Laws in Florida, his parents are forever barred from suing him.

I wonder: because of the things Zimmerman said to the dispatcher, are there grounds for a federal hate crime prosecution?

[avaistheone1]

99. Florida forbids civil suits in cases like these?

I hope the parents can pursue a federal hate crime case, but I don't really know.

[totodeinhere]

100. Oh I didn't know that. Thanks. But yes I think there are grounds

for a federal prosecution of some kind. But then what do I know? I predicted a conviction.

[jmowreader]

266. Assuming the feds want to get involved...

"these assholes, they always get away" said at 7:09 pm, when it was light enough outside to see what color Trayvon Martin was, looks to me like justification for a hate-crimes prosecution.

[George II]

127. Screw Florida laws...there are FEDERAL laws too!

[bossy22]

235. I don't think so

according to our system, there was no crime committed. Hate crime is sort of an interesting legal term- essentially it is a secondary crime- you are charging someone for why they committed the crime- if they did not commit any crime, the reason is a moot point

[totodeinhere]

96. I'm sure that that will also happen. And Zimmerman's lawyers have probably told him that. Some

observers are asking why he showed no emotion when hearing the verdict. It's probably because he knows that this is not over.

[George II]

125. Thank GOD for the Civil Rights Act of 1964...this isn't over yet!

I agree. I was trying to post to the OP, the system is acting crazy tonight.

[bossy22]

233. do you think you could prove this beyond a reasonable doubt?

I don't think so. stop grasping at straws.

[totodeinhere]

310. I am not a lawyer but a good Justice Department lawyer might. Yes it

would not be a sure thing. Excuse me for "grasping at straws" in an attempt to get some kind of justice for Trayvon. Oh silly me.

[erpowers]

65. Sad

I was hoping for at least a manslaughter verdict. However, I am not too surprised.

[BobbyBoring]

68. Remember

A jury found OJ innocent too! This isn't over for Georgy boy. There will be a wrong full death suit among others. It's only just begun~

[premium]

179. The Martin's can't civily sue Zimmerman, in FL.

He's immune from civil suits because he was acquitted of murder on self defense.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.032.html

FS 776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force

[George II]

69. They used to say "Only in America", tonight it's "Only in Florida" - disgusting.

[adirondacker]

73. WTF! Not guilty of manslaughter? What a fucked up system of law we have in this country. nt

[Carolina]

147. go away

your comments are not appreciated here... go to freeperville and join your ilk who favored this verdict

[Beacool]

76. It's the prosecution's fault.

They bowed to pressure and overcharged Zimmerman. He should have been charged with manslaughter from the beginning, it was not a second degree murder. They were not able to prove their case and now Zimmerman is free.

[Shrek]

113. The jury had the option to convict on manslaughter

They acquitted anyway.

[Beacool]

162. That charge was added at the last minute.

They must have thought that it was a gimmick.

[24601]

301. My understanding is different than what you said. Manslaughter was always on the table as a

lessor-included offense to the charge of 2nd degree murder.

Before closing statements, the State's Attorneys asked the judge for jury instructions that would including considering 3rd degree murder based on child-abuse.

Per (11 July) Florida Today:

"Judge Debra Nelson denied the third-degree murder instruction, saying she was exercising caution since she was unsure if prosecutors could prove intent."

“I just don’t think the evidence supports that,” Nelson said.

[link:http://www.floridatoday.com/viewart/20130711/NEWS01/307110042/Judge-denies-3rd-degree-murder-charge-Zimmerman-case|

[Beacool]

315. Maybe so, but the perception was that it was M2.

I blame the prosecution more than the jurors for the verdict. If they had charged him with manslaughter for the onset, I think that the verdict would have been guilty as charged.

[24601]

316. That would have been awkward & difficult. The Sanford Police Department was recommending the

manslaughter charge and the 4th District's State's Attorney took over the case in a highly-charged environment with all sorts of pressure. Following the Sanford PD's recommendation would have been immediately denounced as a sell-out.

[Beacool]

318. Yes, but the prosecutors were experienced enough to have known that M2 would not stick.

That's why when cases become a circus justice is not achieved. Case in point, OJ, Casey Anthony and now Zimmerman. Cool heads should have prevailed, instead of emotion.

[Pterodactyl]

307. Interesting point.

[Shadowflash]

81. A boon for bar fighters!

I guess this means, legally, if I pick a fight with someone who I cannot take, instead of having my ass handed to me because my mouth wrote a check I can't cash, I can just shoot the guy and it's cool. Something to remember for the next bar fight.

[truth2power]

130. I am thinking that this is EXACTLY what the jury has said...

It's late tonight and I'll probably have more to say tomorrow -

I'm listening to the press conf. as I'm typing and the woman (is she the DA?) just said this was a case about boundaries and George Zimmerman <crossed over> those boundaries.

True, and I think what you said is correct. Someone can just start a fight and then blow the other guy away. Sad.

[Straw Man]

333. Not exactly.

I guess this means, legally, if I pick a fight with someone who I cannot take, instead of having my ass handed to me because my mouth wrote a check I can't cash, I can just shoot the guy and it's cool. Something to remember for the next bar fight.

Read the statute:

776.012?Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1)?He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2)?Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

776.041?Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1)?Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2)?Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0776/0776.html

In other words, "Stand Your Ground" doesn't apply when you have initiated the fight. The initial aggressor has a duty to retreat before he or she is legally justified in using deadly force.

Stay out of bar fights.

[gejohnston]

82. The legal blog talk left

http://www.talkleft.com/

Talk Left has a very good archive that will explain why. The Youtube channel "thecount" has a complete archive the the trial and hearings if you want to see for yourself.
At the end of the day, the State could not prove its case. They decided on the evidence and law given to them.

Given the number of reversible errors and the prosecutors playing hide and go seek with evidence, a conviction wouldn't have mattered.

It sucks, but that is the reality. Not a right or left reality, not a gun humper or gun grabber reality, just the only reality.

[michigandem58]

83. Prosecution kissing the jury's ass?? WTF??

n/t

[mstinamotorcity2]

86. My sons will never be safe

in America. fuck George Zimmerman I shed tears for Trayvon and his Parents. this was the most blatant form of racist bullshit. He Murdered a child. And I don't give a fuck what a jury full of no nothing broads who don't give a damn about anyone child but their own.. Now Mr. Zimmerman and Sanford Florida will always be a Racist town with racist people. I am done it will take a lot for this one to wash. Kiss my Ass defense team we got you we know you were going to get off. but you keep on fucking with people's children and sooner or later you will meet their parents.

[aintitfunny]

88. So incredibly stupid.

Unbelievable.

[Mr.Bill]

92. You know how you all feel right now?

That's how I felt when he was not charged with first degree murder. When they didn't do that, I saw this coming.

[littlewolf]

114. if they could not get 2nd degree murder

what makes you think they would get 1st degree ?

[Mr.Bill]

117. I am of the opinion

without going into minute detail, that if all the evidence was allowed in court, things would have been different.

[bossy22]

246. 1st degree murder is essentially pre-meditated

what evidence was there that zimmerman planned martin's death?

Me thinks you don't have a good understanding of the law. In fact the opposite of what you say is more plausible. I'd think that they would go for the charge with the highest amount of burden on the prosecution if they wanted to get zimmerman to walk away free- not the lesser charge.

[Mr.Bill]

248. "They always get away"

Not this time though, right, George?

[bossy22]

250. huh?

[Mr.Bill]

251. Premeditation.

Not letting this one get away. Fucking punks. Used in the opening arguments, should have been used in the closing arguments. Of course the wild card we are not privy to is the composition of the jury, so it's all speculation.

[kestrel91316]

328. Exactly. IMHO there was racially-motivated premeditation.

[appacom]

93. This is a rallying call. No justice, no peace.

This is one fucked up country, and I am so very, very angry.

[mbee]

94. Two words -

Boycott Florida!

[raccoon]

110. +1000. nt

[KarenS]

129. We have been boycotting Florida since

2000,,,, not a dime goes there from us (directly, anyway),,,,

The boycott will continue from our household until the day I die.

on edit: changed the subject from I to "we".

[24601]

286. Why 2000?

[truth2power]

303. I think she was referring to the 2000 election theft. eom

[24601]

305. I was wondering it it was that, but posters don't blame Florida. The acceptable DU response is

to boycott the USSC - although I don't believe there are Supreme Court timeshares.

[Carolina]

151. i agree

you beat me to the punch, but that was exactly what I was thinking.

[Caretha]

118. Stick it

where the sun don't shine

[southerncrone]

97. So. Vigilante Justice for All!

Message received.
We can go totin' our guns & shoot anyone who we think looks like they "don't belong", even kids, then claim self-defense.
Sounds like an open season....

This country is over-saturated w/ignorant, racist, misogynist, morons.
What's a thinking person to do? Where can we go?

[blkmusclmachine]

189. Let the South secede from the Union.

It's what they've always wanted, anyway. Then the South can have its own little all-white Republican Jesusland, where it's open season on gays, lations, blacks, atheists, libruls, women, education, & peace.

[southerncrone]

201. Being a daughter of the South, I sure don't want to give it up to A..holes!

The South is some of the best land/climate in the country. I want to take it back, not give it up. But, the hill seems long & hard at this point. Not sure I can stand the fight at my age. Need to find bluer pastures. Repukes made a good lick when they infiltrated the churches to gain control of the Southern states. And you are correct, the South never fully-recovered from the Civil War, but it is time to move on and get over it!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

98. Not surprised. Floriduh has lived up to their rep once again.

Pretty much unless you record microwaving and eating your kid, or state "I'm going to get out of my car and execute a "n*****" and record it, you will get away with anything down there.

[Botany]

102. the police told him to stay in his car

If riots happen I can understand .... sorry .... but this 100% bullshit
Zimmerman's gun was in a holster behind his back so how the
f*** could he have reached behind him to pull out the gun when
he was on the ground?

[24601]

292. It's appropriate you brought this up. The words you suggest are not accurate. The individual

with whom Zimmerman spoke was not a police officer. That individual testified several things:

That not being a police officer, but rather a civilian dispatcher (Sean Noffke) who send officers out on calls, that they have no authority to give orders to callers. He testified specifically that he was not authorized to tell Zimmerman not to follow Martin.

That the words he used were "OK, we don't need you to do that", which even if the dispatcher could give enforceable orders) would have been different than an order for Zimmerman to remain in, or return to, his car.

From LA Times Coverage:

"In his testimony, Noffke said he didn’t order Zimmerman to stop. Dispatchers don’t issue such orders because of liability issues, he said."

“How come you didn’t … say ‘don’t follow'?” the prosecutor asked him.

"Noffke explained that for legal reasons, 911 operators may not give such orders. “We’re directly liable if we give a direct order,” he said. “We always try to give general basic … not commands, just suggestions.”

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-trial-20130624,0,5743016.story

Good that you brought it up because it's important to distinguish facts, especially those clarified in sworn testimony, as opposed to the inaccurate statements that contribute to the polarizations of this case and may incite further violence.

And I certainly don't blame you - what you post has been said by no shortage of people who had easy access to the true statements.

[Ken Burch]

103. They'll probably elect him to the state Senate, now.

My sympathies to all people of color living in Florida...half of their white neighbors are going to take this verdict as a license to kill.

Resistance to the coming white supremacist payback campaign must be organized immediately.

[Mr.Bill]

120. I see him with his own show on Fox. n/t

[Ken Burch]

175. And either way, he'll say "It was part of God's plan".

To which God's kid will reply:



Of course, when he says that, JC will probably look more like THIS:

[PuffedMica]

275. Book deal, movie residuals

FAUX NUZ commentary slot

Guest appearance at the Republican National Convention

[AngryOldDem]

104. A bad precedent was set tonight.

Especially if you're a minority.

Man confronts a kid who was doing absolutely nothing wrong and shoots him dead. The man walks.

That is some fucked up justice.

[lynne]

106. The minute the ballistics guy testified -

- that ballistics showed Zimmerman on the bottom when the shot was fired, I figured it would go this way.

According to the law, he's innocent. The only way around that is to change the law.

[cstanleytech]

122. Agreed. They need to write into law that if you call in and a 911

operator tells you to stay in your car and you disobey them and pursue someone after being told to wait for the police and you kill them that its at the least manslaughter.

[bossy22]

240. you can't do that

a 911 operator isn't there with you, they don't know the entire situation. To have a law on the books like that would put an unreasonable burden on an operator and would have alot of negative unintended consequences. Not to mention, the operator isn't even a trained law enforcement officer, is their advice really worth more than someone else's? It's something to think about

[cstanleytech]

317. I believe it would work.

They arent telling you dont defend yourself if the person comes to you but rather the law would only apply if they tell you not to approach and or follow and if you disobey then if anything happens alot of the burden for it is your our doing .

[Pterodactyl]

308. Good point!

[DCBob]

108. Sad day for justice.

It means you can pick a fight with someone and blow their head off and walk away not guilty.

[cstanleytech]

124. Understatment. nt

[Brigid]

111. I wish I could say I am surprised.

Shameful, shameful day for this country.

[johnnyrocket]

115. Crying shame. Wtf is wrong with Florida!!!!!

Absolutely outrageous.

[damnedifIknow]

116. Didn't think I could be shocked anymore

There is no way I thought he would walk.

[Loki]

119. I hope those mother's never have to lose a child like this,

because they just put a target on all our children. I hope George Zimmerman never has peace.

[Aristus]

123. I guess it's open season on unarmed black teenagers now.

Way to go, Florida!

[Cha]

206. Tweet with the same feeling..

Nerdy Wonka @NerdyWonka

The jury in Florida just announced to the world that in America, it is perfectly okay by them to kill innocent young black men.

http://theobamadiary.com/2013/07/13/our-hearts-are-broken/#comments

[PaulKersey]

136. wow

[Loryn]

128. This is awful.

I just feel sick for his Trayvon's loved ones.
What a sad day.

[dawn frenzy adams]

131. REMEMBER THIS WHEN YOU THINK OF THE VERDICT.

A Closer Look At George Zimmerman
Annemarie Rush
Thursday, March 29th, 2012





Zimmerman relocated to Lake Mary, Florida in 2002. In 2004, Robert and Gladys Zimmerman had George’s name removed from the deed to a house in Lake Mary.

In early 2005, he was arrested outside of a bar and charged with resisting a police officer with violence. Ordinarily, this would have resulted in jail time and a felony, however the charges were reduced to resisting an officer without violence, and Zimmerman avoided conviction by entering a pre-trial diversion program of alcohol education. In the state of Florida, pre-trial diversion programs are generally only available to first time offenders charged with misdemeanors or nonviolent felonies.


Later in 2005, Zimmerman’s ex-fiance, Veronica Zuaco filed a “civil motion for a restraining order alleging domestic violence”. Zimmerman later counter filed for a restraining order against Zuaco, both orders were granted.


Beginning in 2004, and ending with the 911 call the night of Trayvon Martin’s death, George Zimmerman placed at least 47 publicly documented complaints to police. Two of these calls, made while Zimmerman resided in Lake Mary, were placed in reference to an ex-roommate who was allowing people Zimmerman did not like into his apartment. Zimmermnan also called to report people throwing items at his truck.


In 2004, Zimmerman called the police reporting having seen a man steal a television, and remained on the line while following the purported thief until police arrived to handle the situation. In the same year, Zimmerman again pursued an individual whom he claimed had spit on him, after having called the police to report the offense. There are no records of arrests made in either case. In addition to the reports stated above, Zimmerman made several calls about open garage doors, unattended dogs, and suspicious vehicles in his community in Lake Mary.


George Zimmerman was married in 2007, to cosmetologist Shellie Nicole Dean, and in 2009 the couple moved to a gated community named “The Retreat At Twin Lakes” in Sanford, Florida, located a few miles from their previous residence. He began taking classes in law enforcement at Seminole State University, and took charge of his new community’s neighborhood watch program. He arranged neighborhood watch and safety trainings for the community which were conducted by members of the Sanford Police Department.

con't

http://www.insightoutnews.org/readings/a-closer-look-at-george-zimmerman/

[truth2power]

169. Which is why he'll be in the news again. Wait and see.

[golfguru]

132. Zimmerman walks free after killing a 17 year old unarmed youth

I don't think it was the right verdict. However I respect our justice system where both the accused and the victim get a fair shake in a court of law and the verdict comes from a jury of ordinary citizens. No one else has a better system.

[dawn frenzy adams]

135. Ha!

If you're white with money, it's a good system

[golfguru]

150. Try getting this type of public trial in China, Russia, Cuba, etc n/t

[dawn frenzy adams]

257. Ha.

If it's rigged, it doesn't matter where it is. I know what China and Russia are. But America hides behind a cloak of democracy when it has never been one.

[golfguru]

259. Everything in North America is about $$$$$$$

Realize it, tolerate it or emigrate from it. It won't change in our
lifetimes.

[marble falls]

137. I am shocked. I hope the Martins take the little tweek to civil court.....

I pray not but the little tweek will screw up again. I pray again he doesn't kill anyone when the inevitable happens in the future.

I thought racism was dying. It only got calmer, but is as cold blooded as ever.

[littlewolf]

145. I believe fl law prevents civil suit.

since it was self defense, i do not think they can sue.
someone talked about it higher up.

[marble falls]

152. No justice available in Florida. What a state motto. I have a new motto for my own Texas....

"Thank goodness for Florida."

[cstanleytech]

165. What about a lawsuit via federal court? Is that possible?

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

138. The fix was in....

I can't see it any other way.

[truth2power]

139. O'mara and West talking now (press conference)...

West is a prick. Sorry.

O'mara painting Zimmy as some sort of public servant. Ugh! Being his defense attys. I guess that's to be expected, though.

[drynberg]

140. QUESTION: ARE WE A NATION OF LAWS?

ANSWER: Wadda U think? Welcome to the new barbarism...

[mvd]

141. Very, very disappointed in this!

I can't believe he didn't get at least manslaughter. How can it be self defense when he followed Trayvon for no good reason and fired a gun at someone armed with tea and Skittles? It's Zimmerman's own fault if he was confronted. Really think the stand your ground laws have to go. They could open things up for more excused murder. Really feel bad for Trayvon and his family, and also for our justice system. Hopefully there is a civil suit.

[craigmatic]

143. fuck kinda bullshit is this? fuck florida

[DallasNE]

144. This Verdict Was Destined By The Rotten Police Work

At the crime scene and the following couple of days. The absence of evidence is not the same as the presence of evidence and that absence is a direct result of the most rotten police work I have ever seen and it worked heavily in Zimmerman's favor.

The circumstantial evidence in this case pointed strongly to Zimmerman being guilty of 2nd degree murder but the only hard evidence was the scream on the 911 call and the very high likelihood that the scream belonged to Martin. But for this Jury they could not come to that conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt. In a he said/she said case one person is lying and the other is telling the truth and sometimes the liar wins. I don't think that there is any doubt but what that is the case here.

The next hurdle that has to be grappled with is whether this case represents a blueprint for someone to be able to commit murder with impunity and what the changes are that need to be made in order to correct the glaring deficiency.

Lastly, the comments by O'Mara and particularly Don West are ungrateful and disgusting. May they rot in hell.

[Cleita]

146. Awful.

It's all I can say. The jury had to follow the laws, so we are told.

THE LAWS SUCK!

Floridians only you can change the laws.

[broadcaster75201]

149. As a Prosecutor of 25 years ...

I am not at all surprised by NG on 2nd. But I am STUNNED by NG on MS. Stunned.

[littlewolf]

156. me too ... based upon what I saw

I thought 2nd degree murder was a reach. and when
the jury asked for more info on MS. I was pretty sure
that is were it was going.

[adirondacker]

160. "To win a manslaughter conviction, prosecutors had to convince the jury only that Zimmerman killed..

without lawful justification."

How the hell is stalking and shooting someone unarmed justified?

[bossy22]

216. because we don't know who through the first punch

that is the issue. If martin's through the first punch and Zimmerman had no intention of harming him before the altercation he would not be found guilty of even manslaughter. There just wasn't enough evidence...

They might have been able to get him for negligent homicide.

[adirondacker]

225. So, someone can provoke an altercation with an unarmed individual and shoot him? nt

[bossy22]

231. No

but you know as well as i know that this was much more complicated than how you put it.

First off, when did the altercation start, what are we defining as the starting point? Who escalated the altercation? Did Zimmerman have the intention of starting and altercation so he could shoot martin?

These are a few of the questions that have to be answered. The problem is we don't have solid answers for them, we have theories, but no hard evidence. IIRC to prove manslaughter they had to prove that Zimmerman acted with depraved indifference to human life- they didn't really prove that. They proved that Zimmerman made some stupid decisions, but stupid decisions that lead to someone deaths doesn't necessarily equal manslaughter.

At best, this was a case of negligent homicide

[adirondacker]

247. Thanks for the clarification. I'm still pretty leary of how justice was served here. nt

[bossy22]

249. it was technically...not so much in reality

IMHO Zimmerman is guilty of negligent homicide- he should have stayed in his car and left it to the police. He decided instead to confront martin, which is stupid to say the least. I don't think zimmerman had any intention to hurt martin- there was def. very little evidence to contradict that.

The prosecution just aimed too high.

[adirondacker]

260. Right. Sometimes I think the technicalities of the law in this country are written exactly for this

purpose. Basically to exonerate the guilty at will. There's a reason wealthy people can get away with far more than the average Joe on the street. There are frequently more loopholes for those that can afford them.

[Beacool]

171. They added that charge at the last minute.

Maybe the jurors thought that it was a gimmick of a failing prosecution.

[lancer78]

238. Really?

How can you be stunned when it was TM who committed the first illegal act by jumping GZ? And before anyone says anything different, do you think GZ would have not drawn his handgun first if TM had just turned around and confronted him?

[Carolina]

289. Go the

fuck away, you troll

[Skittles]

334. there is no WAY that gun humping paranoid coward approached Martin without displaying his gun

NO WAY IN HELL

[meanit]

154. The NRA should be happy

Some people may now purchase guns who otherwise would not, just to protect themselves from the newly empowered "Zimmermans" out there now.

[sofa king]

312. I don't know....

The obvious lesson I am taking away from all this is that if a gun comes out in a fight I am in, the person carrying it has to die... for my legal protection.

[boguspotus]

155. Wow, so now it's so extra easy to kill black folks with no repercussions? Fucking bull shit!

Can't wait for Zimmy to kill again. Sorry, our country is fucked. I'm glad I don't have kids. Fuck It.

[Deny and Shred]

159. O'Mara making me sick

He was asked if things would be different if GZ was black. His response was yes, it never would have gone to trial. He reasoned that Sharpton, etc would never have gotten involved. Just wow.

If a 28 year old black guy killed a 17 year old white kid in Sanford FL he would have been arrested immediately and charged with something. It would be different becuase we'd never have heard about it.

Plaxico Burris served more time for shooting himself in the leg.

Never going to FL again. Never.

[Igel]

252. I think he answered the question correctly.

If GZ were black, I doubt it would have gone to trial. There wasn't any strong motivation to take GZ to trial. You can assume that was because they didn't want to prosecute a white guy. Or because the case would be weak. In hindsight ...


But that's a different thing from "If GZ were black and TM were white would things be different?" Quite possibly. But he wasn't asked that.

Both of them are reasonable questions. And the answers that are offered to both of them say something about attitudes towards race.

[Deny and Shred]

283. I think it goes beyond that.

He's saying a black killer wouldn't have stood trial, and GZ was singled out for prosecution because he was white. In other words, black people need to STFU because they got MORE justice than any white person would get.

I could buy some of what you are saying if US jails weren't and haven't been filled with black men found guilty on much less evidence. If GZ were black, he would not recieve the money, support, interview offers, etc that GZ does.

[marshall]

294. What if Zimmerman were Hispanic instead of white?

The case has many layers of racial interplay.

[lexington filly]

161. The laws, too few on a jury,

and I think, the prosecution's strategy and much of the time passiveness, freed the killer.
Nevertheless, I feel stunned he didn't get convicted of manslaughter. Just 6 on a jury doesn't allow enough diversity of gender, race, intellect, background of experience in my opinion. They have 12 in FL to send someone to Death Row and get that wrong too much of the time---so divide that by half and call it justice?
I feel so unsettled by this verdict. Sad for Trevon's folks.

We've become so primitive in this country, carrying guns on our hips just to go to Target for God's sake! If the verdict didn't honor this kid, then I could by working to change the laws and helping elect those who pervert the 2nd Amendment.

[mountain grammy]

166. sickening.

[GoCubsGo]

167. I wish I could say I was surprised.

When I heard that the jury was made up of a bunch of middle-aged white teabagger women, I figured it would turn out this way. Sickening. Just sickening.

[Beacool]

172. How do you know that they were Teabaggers?

Just because they were white?

[GoCubsGo]

187. Mostly because of where the live.

Sanford is full of Teabaggers. And, because Zimmerman's lawyer was spouting all kinds of Tea Party buzzwords in his closing address to them. Just assuming...

[Beacool]

209. OK, I lived in FL but I've never been to Sanford. nt

[blkmusclmachine]

174. Get the hell out of FL.

[Jack Rabbit]

177. That is disgusting

I haven't been so disgusted with 12 jurors since the LA cops walked after beating Rodney King or when O. J. walked. Before that it was Dan White being convicted on a lesser charge after killing Mayor Moscone and Supervisor Harvey Milk in San Francisco.

I hope Zimmerman makes a lot of money. He'll need to hire body guards for the rest of his life.

Justice was not served tonight.

[premium]

186. It wasn't 12 Jurors,

it was 6 women and 4 alternates.

[Jack Rabbit]

208. Thank you for that information

[DallasNE]

213. So Right, Lack Of Diversity

Another example of the failure of austerity. Florida did this to save money. Also, the prosecution didn't have the money for sufficient discovery then they were denied their expert witnesses on voice analysis. It is impossible in the digital age not to have the technology that could prove who's voice it was not (or was). It should be far less complicated than matching DNA.

[premium]

215. I mostly agree with you,

but 1 small correction, their so called "expert witnesses on voice analysis"? Every reputable voice analysis expert in the country called their methods junk science, that's why the judge disallowed their testimony.

[DallasNE]

224. Mostly Agree

The prosecution did not look hard enough for newer technology which is not junk science and that may go to lack of funding for discovery. That said, there may not yet be enough demand for the technology on voice analysis so it may not yet be available but it makes no sense that the digital blueprint for voice cannot be matched against a second sample and come back either positive or negative every time (provided the samples are of a sufficient duration).

[premium]

226. Good points.

We've reached an agreement.

[Igel]

255. It was crap data.

It passed through too many filters whose properties weren't known.

It wasn't loud. You'd have to amplify it. All the noise in the signal gets amplified. You want details. You get noise. I've transcribed 911 recordings. Sometimes all you get is noise and it's hard to tell if there's even a signal.

Assume you can get around that. Having a long enough sample would help. They didn't. Short sample, short amoung of crap. Assume you can get around *that*.

The mode of phonation was non-standard. That means you'd need a sample of that kind of phonation, and you'd need it from both of them. TM was in no position to provide a sample.

Digital blueprints look at details in formant structure, details in coarticulation, idiosyncrasies in modal phonation. No formants. No coarticulation. Modal phonation, to be sure, but the spectral tilt would be a killer (so to speak).

Sorry. Did too much linguistics in grad school, hung out with far too many linguists, and then had the lack of common sense to marry a phonologist/phonetician who spent a decade doing fairly low level acoustic analysis as a post-doc then as faculty at a Tier 1 university.

[DallasNE]

268. I Made The Assumption The Recording Was Digital

If it is not then no dice. If it is digital then why can't they filter out the extraneous sound bits and have something pretty darn pure to work with. Is it because the software is not yet mature enough to make this possible. I presume you are saying that you cannot compare a normal voice with a scream and I can see where that would make it an extra challenge. Maybe I'm too optimistic that some programmer could make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

[truth2power]

304. Re: voice analysis... Your post and those above are enlightening..

I was wondering, during the trial, why there couldn't have been some way to tell just who was screaming, even tho' I can't imagine that hulk, GZ, screaming in high C.

Also, I guess that's why those speeches by Anonymous are always filtered thru an artificial voice technique - so they can't be identified. Yes?

[alp227]

192. Once Z settles the Martin family CIVIL case that money is out the window.

So he may need witness protection for life like a new name/SSN/other records. The boys who killed james Bulger did after leaving prison.

[DallasNE]

227. Not Sure Civil Recourse Is Available In Florida

It is not available under stand your ground and since this was self defense with a backdrop of stand your ground it may be an unresolved legal issue. O'Mara announced tonight he will fight all attempts to bring Zimmerman before a civil court. My guess is that this case is now closed.

[alp227]

243. Shiiiiiit...you may be right

http://www.volokh.com/2012/03/27/floridas-self-defense-laws/

Fla. Stat. § 776.032. Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.

But Zimmerman never had immunity from prosecution and in fact has already gone through prosecution, so I am doubtful he can use this law. If anything, Zimmerman will probably want to put this case behind him and prefer a quiet, confidential, speedy settlement of any civil suit.

[hack89]

284. He could have requested immunity but choose not to

TM's parent's could attempt to sue, in which case Z would request an immunity hearing. Considering he was found not guilty by a jury, it is likely that the judge would grant him immunity.

[NickB79]

229. No civil case to settle, he's immune

Per Florida's laws. If found to have killed in self-defense, he can't be civilly sued in court.

[BlueManFan]

181. That's It!!!!! I Believe Florida should Be under a provisional federal governor!

Between the 2000 election, choosing a medicare fraud/thief for governor, and declaring open season on black kids--they are too fucked up to be allowed to govern themselves. And I live in shithole texas so ai know what living in tea bag hell is

[Voice for Peace]

237. the ocean will soon swallow Florida, and it will be forgotten.

maybe not in our lifetimes, but it's coming.

[BlueManFan]

319. Those hillbilly teabag Floridians don't believe in global warming

but they will when Miami Looks Like Venice

[Bette Noir]

182. The verdict makes me inexpressibly sad.

[SoapBox]

183. He stalked and murdered

an unarmed American citizen.

...sickening.

[mike dub]

184. bull fucking shit verdict

But may Trayvon Martin rest in peace, and may his family and friends help one another through this

[Vattel]

188. Justice prevailed.

There was reasonable doubt. The jury made the right decision.

[GReedDiamond]

193. Injustice Prevailed...you are wrong...eom

[ForgoTheConsequence]

211. Let me guess...white?....middle class?......

How can justice prevail when a teenager who was unarmed is dead, and no one is held responsible?

[Puzzledtraveller]

269. +1

[Lee-Lee]

274. Justice didn't prevail

But the system worked.

The prosecution brought a weak case to trial, and presented what they had very poorly.

I have been saying that here over and over, and nobody believed me.

[laserhaas]

190. Prosecutors frk'd this one up BIG TIME!

and now - we have open season - with a precedent....

[Lee-Lee]

277. They did

They brought M2 when they were nowhere near able to prove, and by overreaching trying to get it didn't make a good enough case for manslaughter over self defense.

[walkerbait41]

194. Its a sad day

For Justice and a sad day for America

[Alan M]

195. Lets not loose sight of the real villains

I am sure I am in the minority here, but it was the right verdict given Florida law. If you pass a law written by the NRA that encourages people not just to defend themselves and their homes, but to take up arms and patrol public places bad things are going to happen and they did. To me the real villains in this are the Florida Legislature the NRA, ALEC and the companies that gave ALEC the funds to get this legislation passed. The ought to be very ashamed.

[DallasNE]

263. The Law Has A Double Standard

The defense only had to prove that Zimmerman "reasonably believes" he faced great bodily harm while the prosecution has to "prove beyond a reasonable doubt" that he did not face great bodily harm. Once Martin threw a punch to defend himself it subjected him to the use of deadly force. That is how the Florida law is written. Cause someone to take a punch at you and you have a free card to kill. It sucks.

[Kablooie]

196. So now a mugger can claim self defense in Florida after he shoots a victim.

as long as there aren't witnesses to contradict him.

[Alan M]

202. No

Since a mugger would be engaging in a felony no. The problem with the law is mistaken perceptions. That is why you really can't trust the general public to go on armed patrol they have no training to ascertain what is really going on.

[bossy22]

228. this does not have much to do with SYG laws

IIRC it wasn't even raised as a defense.

This case has brought out the most disgusting side of the left. We've turned it into a proxy war for every other issue- guns, race, etc...

It really isn't- its a tragic story of a deadly confrontation and an overzealous prosecutor

[tpsbmam]

221. No. A WHITE mugger can claim self defense after he shoots a BLACK victim.

It doesn't generalize to whites killing whites, etc. It's those African Amerkins who are so fucking threatening & understandably terrifying!



(Sarcasm only on the very last.bit. The rest is my damn opinion of these racist United States.)

[Alan M]

232. Anybody can claim whatever they want

It is the nature of our justice system. However, if there is evidence that someone was engaged in felony it is unlikely that they would prevail on a claim of self-defense.

[bossy22]

236. SYG wasn't raised as a defense

he would have been found not guilty even if it wasn't on the books. The defense argued that zimmerman was underneath martin and could not retreat. SYG is meaningless at this point

[Alan M]

256. I agree up to a point

but even though it wasn't invoked it made Zimmerman's behavior “lawful” under Florida's self-defense law. If SYG hadn't passed the prosecution could have argued that Zimmerman was acting recklessly when he decided to patrol the neighborhood with a firearm, and they would have had a much better chance of getting a manslaughter conviction. I.e Stand Your Ground made armed untrained citizens patrolling a public place “lawful” conduct and therefore it can't be reckless or even negligent. Furthermore, I have no doubt if SYG had never passed Zimmerman wouldn’t have been patrolling his neighborhood with a firearm in the first place.

[onehandle]

241. Yes. No witnesses, so he isn't a mugger. nt

[humbled_opinion]

198. I really don't know how this has become

so political but it has... can we at least rally to end stand your ground laws?

[Alan M]

205. I would hope so

But in my mind the trial was a distraction to take the heat off the legislature, and for the most part it worked.
This is going to happen over and over again as long as this law is on the books.

[bossy22]

242. SYG Wasn't used as a defense

even if it didnt exist zimmerman would be found not guilty

[felix_numinous]

203. Unbelievable

demonstration of injustice. I had hope since it was brought into the limelight, that this would not happen.

Truly a sad night in America.

[lucca18]

212. A very sad day.......

I feel such an overwhelming sadness. Such utter injustice that it is sickening.......

[SammyWinstonJack]

214. How could they return this verdict?

Just don't understand.

[bossy22]

218. because the prosecution could not prove beyond a reasonable doubt

that he was guilty of the charges

There was reasonable doubt. IMHO Zimmerman should have been charged with negligent homicide- in the end that is all the prosecution really proved.

[kestrel91316]

329. Because the police deliberately botched the investigation and then the prosecutors,

who never wanted to prosecute in the first place, deliberately botched the courtroom case.

It was monkeywrenched by internal saboteurs, IMHO.

[20score]

217. I don't understand how this can happen. It disgusts me.

[lonestarnot]

219. American idiots now think it's ok to stalk and kill unarmed black kids walking in the neighborhood.

Fucking outrageous. Time to get the fuck outta here.

[totodeinhere]

311. If you are referring to the jury, finding him not guilty and thinking what he did was OK

are two entirely different things. I am more ready to fault the prosecution than the jury. The jury had a very narrow set of instructions to follow and were told that if there is any doubt whatsoever they must acquit. The prosecution was incompetent and inept and that fact is an outrage.

[blackspade]

220. Un-fucking believable.

I figured that the fix was in on this, but it's still stunning to think that this guy walked after murdering this kid.

[shall_not_tell]

222. I am super mad

I am SOOOO pissed off at Zimmerman. I hope he punches himself in the nose until it breaks and bashes his own head into the pavement, again.

[link:http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRMZ3O8CMl2HTDO5Ci_i1tE1OS6KPDS2885Z2X4ppzuzC2lnuVgxQ|

[miked62916]

223. I can't believe this

How can that scumbag Zimmerman be found not guilty?! Absolutely mind-boggling.

[Ash_F]

239. Saw that coming.

Back when I first heard the make-up of the Jury. It should be illegal to have so much homogeneity.

[defacto7]

244. The United States of America

died again today.

[ThenWhatTheFis]

253. better blog

Democratic Underground I can see here has normal people and was nothing to sign up. Over at HLNTV you could go crazy trying to sign up, no privacy, bigot city.

To draw a wild card:
Big Shooter George Zimmerman could even be just some stupid patsy for the Bad old conservative reactionaries who want to go back to pre-civil rights days. Why didn't the cops take action, especially the (fired) chief. And the Judge. If people had brand names, they would be a generic equivalent of the KKK.

[awoke_in_2003]

254. while I severely disagree with the judgement...

please reconsider the use of the word "shyster"- it has anti-semitic connotations.

[nakocal]

258. Judge also erred

The Judge in this case also made a serious legal mistake by allowing the computer animation of how Zimmerman claims the murder took place. The only way that the animation should have been allowed was to have it followed immediately by George Zimmerman on the witness stand being cross examined. The animation allowed Zimmerman to testify without the fear of his lies being exposed under cross examination.

[PoliticAverse]

270. The animation was only allowed to be used in the defense's closing argument.

Opening and closing arguments aren't testimony or evidence and a defense attorney can
make claims as to what the defendant did or didn't do without the defendant having to testify.

[nakocal]

342. Which meant that Zimmerman could testify without being cross-examined

The animation goes beyond making a claim as to what the defendant said and did.

[DallasNE]

261. I Wonder What The Jury Members Will Say

To defend this verdict. As I read it they must have decided that with so much conflicting testimony that they would ignore it all and that worked hugely in Zimmerman's favor. That took the many demonstrated lies of Zimmerman out of the picture and the 911 call with the scream since both families said it was their relative screaming but that is taking a short cut that cannot be defended. How can they have a doubt about it being Martin doing the screaming since it stopped the millisecond the shot was fired. To me that easily passes the test of beyond a reasonable doubt and is a smoking gun the jury must explain and be convincing -- something I don't see how they can do.

But under my scenario they looked at Zimmerman's bloody nose and concluded it was self defense. Nothing else much mattered. The DNA did not support a not guilty verdict but perhaps the absence of DNA from where you would expect it doesn't matter in their mind. But much of that lack of evidence goes straight back to the rotten job the police did in the collection and perseveration of evidence.

While the law says that Zimmerman only has to "reasonably believe" his life is threatening while the prosecution has the higher standard of proving "beyond a reasonable doubt" that Zimmerman could not reasonably believe his life is threatened. That double standard is a blueprint for legalized murder. When Martin defended himself with less than deadly force it opened up the opportunity for Zimmerman to use deadly force. Now something is wrong with that picture.

[cosmicone]

271. This is sick

and now I want to see gestapo zimmy charged in Federal Court.

[DCBob]

278. Proving he did not "reasonably believe" his life was being threatend..

is a glaring fault in the law in my opinion.

[pettypace]

262. Objectively I agree with the verdict

Congrats to the defense team.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

267. "congrats"?

How revolting.

[davidpdx]

264. I had a feeling he was going to get off

just because of how the trial went. It really sucks. The manslaughter would have been an alternative, but they apparently thought even that was too much.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

276. Did the jury know which side introduced the Manslaughter alternative?

If I was a juror, and knew the prosecution introduced the manslaughter possibility, I'd interpret that as a sign that the prosecution knew they had a weak case.

I think the prosecutor erred by deviating from the original charge. Or maybe erred by over-charging in the first place.

The manslaughter alternative just confused things.

[Morganfleeman]

280. They are not aware who requests the lesser included

Though I agree it is confusing because no one ever argued manslaughter. Not to mention the jury instructions are not entirely clear

http://media.cmgdigital.com/shared/news/documents/2013/07/12/Zimmerman_Final_Jury_Instructions.pdf

As a lawyer myself i could see how any jury would be confused by these instructions but they are standard instructions in Florida for manslaughter. I'm not surprised the jury had questions about manslaughter because it talks about things like negligence, excusable homicide, justifiable homicide etc., and then SEPARATELY it talks about justifiable use of deadly force. It's a lot for a lay person to digest and frankly it's disgraceful that in this day we cant provide juries with better instructions.

That said, the prosecution also bears a burden because they put their eggs into the second degree murder basket. Had this been a manslaughter case from the beginning they would have significantly improved their odds of a conviction. Arguing in the alternative is something lawyers do all the time and its perfectly acceptable legal practice, but it could very well have been seen as a "kitchen sink" charge by the jury and indicative of a weaker case as no one specifically articulated the manslaughter argument. Closing argument was all about ill will, hatred and depravity.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

290. Thanks for the coherent explanation

It was confusing that the charge of manslaughter was dropped in at the end, with neither side presenting a case for or against that charge.

[Sunlei]

279. maybe the 1 room, 2 man, 9-5pm stamford police dept. will hire George for their night patrol.

[otherone]

281. too bad

[LiberalEsto]

288. I'm not surprised; this is Florida, after all

But I'm utterly disgusted at the verdict.

[wordpix]

296. geesh, not even a manslaughter conviction

I guess it's OK to follow a kid, scare him and then shoot him

[Duckwraps]

298. Too bad. I'm sure many here are very disappointed.

[hue]

300. Horrible!! Terrible!!!! Soo sickening!!! NO JUSTICE!!!!!!

[rdking647]

309. unlike a lot of america i wasnt riveted by this case

i didnt follow it closely because i have a real life. just liek the casey anthony case the wall to wall cnn,msnbc,faux news coverage was ludicrous

but from what i did see there did exist a reasonable doubt as to what happened. I wasnt there,you werent there,there are no eye witnesses so there is no direct evidence as to what really happened.
and that creates reasonable doubt. which is the standard for acquittal.
you can cry about the injustice of it and that may be true but under out system of government its not a level playing field. the prosecution has a tougher case than the defendant. reasonable doubt is a high standard. and yes it does sometime result in the guilty going free but that is a better outcome than imprisoning the innocent

[Bragi]

313. This is about race AND GU NS

Without America's insane gun culture, this would not have been a lethal incident.

[onehandle]

314. Correct. nt

[Owl]

320. Jury (of idiots) finds George Zimmerman not guilty

[Initech]

322. Fuck. Just.... fuck.

[publicdefender76]

323. Zimmerman Case Proves That Left Was Right on Crime

Would someone with thread-starting privileges be willing to post this Huffington Post story as a new thread?

It's a story in THE HUFFINGTON POST entitled "Zimmerman Case Proves That Left Was Right on Crime" and I think it's worth reading. It's not like any other article on the Zimmerman case I've seen thus far, as you'll see if you check it out. (I am its author, FWIW, so I'm biased, but I think the article confirms what I've said here.)

Many, many thanks for the help. I used to post regularly on DU in the mid-aughts (I was the Editor of The Nashua Advocate), and it's been a long time since I've been here. I miss it.

S.

[Kali]

325. what was your DU username?

welcome back (subject to natural caution, of course )

[Kali]

326. is this you?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=159869

you seem to still be in good standing if you still have log in info, otherwise go post a dozen or so replies around the site and you should be good to go.

[FlaGranny]

335. In any other situation

if you act recklessly and irresponsibly and cause a death you will get at least a manslaughter conviction, but because the victim fought back the perpetrator gets to cry self defense.

[olegramps]

338. Next he will write a book, sue the Media and then auction off the gun on E-Bay & Retire.