Teenager's Faith At Odds With Locator Tags In School IDs
Source: NPR
Teenager's Faith At Odds With Locator Tags In School IDs
by Wade Goodwyn
December 17, 2012 3:33 AM
A federal court in Texas on Monday will take up the case of a high-school student who refuses to wear her location-tracking school ID.
The 15-year-old sophomore says the ID badge, which has an embedded radio frequency identification tag, is a violation of her rights. The student, Andrea Hernandez, believes the ID is "the mark of the beast" from the Book of Revelation.
Steven Hernandez says his daughter was alarmed this summer when John Jay High School in San Antonio informed families that new IDs would include the chips, which would help the school know electronically if the student was on campus.
"And she says, 'Daddy, I'm not going to do this.' And I said, 'Why aren't you going to do this, honey?' She says, 'Dad, that's exactly what it talks about in the Book of Revelation that you were teaching us about taking the mark of the beast. This is the exact same thing,' " Hernandez says.
Read more: http://www.npr.org/2012/12/17/167277175/teenagers-faith-at-odds-with-locator-tags-in-school-ids
[center]
Rev. John Hagee, Andrea Hernandez' minister[/center]
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Its just too easy and seem like the kind of think many in HS would do, regardless of religious background
truthisfreedom
(23,146 posts)I mean, who cares if her parents can be reassured that she's ok when a sniper appears on campus?
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)Wanted to use her old ID. This is not a reasonable person. She and her parents need to find a new school.
lbrtbell
(2,389 posts)Though I don't agree with her religious beliefs, I feel this is a horrible invasion of privacy. Teens shouldn't be treated like criminals, being forced to wear tracking devices.
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)For their own safety if nothing else. If there is an emergency it is imperative that the school administration be able to find every student quickly.
And it is not anything like a criminal tracking device. It can easily be taken off and put on a counter or it can be put into a foil sleeve which blocks the chip.
There is no expectation of privacy regarding the location of a person in any public building, let alone a school where the administration is responsible for the students in the building. Sorry, there just isn't.
ZM90
(706 posts)it on privacy grounds. I would have hated the idea of being tracked too mainly because this can easily be abused and really would you want someone to know where you are at all times? I don't think anyone here would.
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)The detectors/chips have a limited range so following her all over town is not really an issue. For that you would need to track her cell phone.
And you can always stick the ID in a foil sleeve when you go off campus, just as you can put a picture ID in your wallet or purse out of the way of prying eyes. Non issue, really.
atreides1
(16,076 posts)You tag your daughter then...just because it's something that seems to thrill you to no end...doesn't mean it needs to be done to someone else.
Do you think the Patriot Act is a good law, too?
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)And if they leave campus, and they are seen by a teacher, or a teacher is notified electronically, I don't see that there's a real difference.
Searching lockers is completely different - I believe that schools can be made to show reason for searching a student's personal possessions, and a lock can be placed on a locker until such time as reason for the search is documented (suspected firearm, controlled substances, stolen property, etc)
But if the school is indeed responsible for a student during those hours, this is something that assists them in monitoriing location, and could be helpful in light of school staffing cuts.
RandiFan1290
(6,229 posts)ReRe
(10,597 posts)Old Rev Hagee. That poor girl. You talk about someone not having a chance in this world? That kind of religion is a cross between brainwashing & neglect. Just wait until she learns that she was lied to for her entire childhood. Betrayal is a bitch. NPR????
IDemo
(16,926 posts)A swipe of the badge signals the main door to permit your entrance; labs or buildings inside allow entrance if the employee has clearance. There are no flying demons surrounding the scanners. These might have actually provided one level of security in Newtown.
At least they didn't refer to these as "GPS" cards for once.
Trillo
(9,154 posts)As an employee, you are paid for your time.
As a student, it's do what you're told or be punished. We all know that punishment can involve some rather "old testament" shit like being beaten with batons, spanked in the principals, or banishment and expulsion. There is no pay for the student.
I believe that's a pretty large difference, in spite of the relatively equal danger of being shot by a mass murderer.
IDemo
(16,926 posts)What essential difference is there between this technology and saying "here!" during roll call? Both educators and employers have a reasonable expectation that their students or workers will show up. And both have reason not to want people showing up who don't belong, whether that's industrial espionage, child abduction or shootings.
I don't consider it in the least an infringement on my rights when I badge in each morning. If school punishments for absences or any other offenses are too extreme, that's a separate issue entirely.
Trillo
(9,154 posts)Re: "pay for the student is an education" -- We all know that for most of the HS students, they will qualify for a minimum wage job, if they can find one. So, the only rationale behind that "education" of which you speak, is education for education's sake.
There is only a practical monetary benefit for a few of the students, those that get on honor rolls, those who do very well, these kids may go on to college. If they do well there, they may qualify for, in this economy, a $10 an hour job, unless they go into a select few 'high-paying' professions like medicine or law. In the case of lawyers, I've had at least one tell me back in the 1980s or 90s (during a reasonably good economy) that they commonly made $10-13 per hour, unless they became a "partner" of a firm. So, from a practical standpoint of economic survival, a series of filters that are far from guaranteed will be applied in these students' futures. With each filter applied, only a percentage goes on to the next step. This could be considered a type of exponential function when viewed from the perspective of 100% of kids. Maybe only 1% end up with fair lifetime compensation for all their prior educational work demanded.
The two above paragraphs, IMO, call into question the essential "reasonableness" of which you write. Our legal system has deemed compulsory education, but not compulsory careers. From the POV of the student, all the demands made by school administration may not be deemed as reasonable. If there were a guaranteed income after jumping through all these hoops for some 1-2+ decades of life, then the deal changes and maybe it would be reasonable for 100% of students.
Regarding Roll Call vs RFID badge, perhaps Ms. Hernandez considers it a matter of personal privacy, though that is speculation on my part. Roll Call happens once, and it's up to her to report it. With the badge, it is reporting her location at times that she is unaware of.
Here's a little more speculation: The use of "mark of the beast" may be considered a metaphor for some kind of perceived tyranny. Each person either accepts outside control, or they do not, in each case of such control. This goes back to reasonableness. It seems Ms. Hernandez seems to feel the RFID badge is an unreasonable requirement given the benefits she has received, is receiving currently, or has expectation of receiving in the future.
IDemo
(16,926 posts)You've taken a completely separate tangent here. I'm not going to argue that it has become very difficult in today's world to achieve economic success, but most agree that doing so without the foundation of a HS diploma is all but impossible. If a student or parent deems the cost/benefit of high school graduation not worth the stress from privacy concerns or other reasons, I guess any efforts to force attendance becomes problematic for them.
I am simply stating that if a student and their parents have agreed to remain in school for whatever reason, the rules (and the law, in most places) require them to show up when expected.
I'm not comfortable with the level of inspection that the NSA, FBI, Homeland Security and local police have been able to grab over the past decade. But this is not in the same ballpark.
Trillo
(9,154 posts)Regarding what you have deemed a "completely separate tangent", I'm not the only one who takes a more wholistic approach. Professor Diane Reay (PDF) has even pointed out that the income disparity between the rich and the poor, the incomes of people who are no longer in school, affects education.
lbrtbell
(2,389 posts)That's a good one. Kids aren't taught anything they need in real life. In all my post-school years, I've never once needed to use algebra and trig, or dissect a worm, or any of the other stupid things we learned in school.
And now that uniforms are coming back, kids aren't even learning how to conform to a proper dress code. They show up for job interviews in T-shirts and jeans, because they don't even know how to dress properly.
Kids aren't being "paid" with an education. They're being robbed of an education, and teachers are helpless to stop it.
mwb970
(11,358 posts)I'm thinking it's because her parents have terrified her with Bible readings. The indoctrination starts at birth with these people and leads to the continuous fear and outrage we see from today's fundamentalist "Christians".
rbixby
(1,140 posts)I know that with UPC codes, people claimed they were the number of the beast because each UPC contains 3 check digits to make sure that the code is read properly. The check digit is the number 6 encoded into it, so in essence, each barcode contains a '666'. Not sure about the rfid tags though.
struggle4progress
(118,282 posts)rbixby
(1,140 posts)I should check snopes before I open my yap I guess
http://www.snopes.com/business/alliance/barcode.asp
yellowcanine
(35,699 posts)who like to weave fantastic real scenarios out of allegorical literature. I have been there. It is kind of fun stuff as literature but not fun and very terrifying when you are 12 and it is taught as fact.
Celebration
(15,812 posts)Dogs that get implanted with trackers often get tumors near where they are implanted.
rhiannon55
(2,671 posts)It's a school ID with a chip in it. She refuses to carry or wear it.
Celebration
(15,812 posts)But it is close to the body, on a necklace type thing. I don't think there have been tests done showing they are safe. These are kids!
Paulie
(8,462 posts)These are radio frequency tags not radiological.
Like AM, FM, cell phones. But even lower power likely passive devices (else they would need recharging)
Celebration
(15,812 posts)But I don't wear it around my neck, and it is only pinged when I travel out of the country.
Plus having a passport, cell phone, etc. is not a requirement to go to school. That is where I have the issue.
Paulie
(8,462 posts)Kid walks in the school just like at the airport. There is no safety issue as there is no ionizing radiation involved.
In this case the child was given the option to opt out AND DECLINED.
Celebration
(15,812 posts)If that is the case, I am sure she will lose this case.
Paulie
(8,462 posts)mwooldri
(10,303 posts)The chips react when certain electromagnetic radiation forces are nearby - causing a resonance. Plus these chips are not embedded in a living being. Besides they're all around us - Londoners use an Oyster Card, Hong Kong residents use an Octopus Card, many banks issue these kind of cards where one can "tap and go".
Besides with this student - I'm not sure if it the case at that school but in the school system my son goes to (still Elementary school tho) each student is required to have a binder for work, for recording homework assignments, etc. One of the first tasks is to decorate that binder with information about its owner, the class they're in, etc. The RFID chip is easily embedded into something like cardboard. Why not use that as a placeholder for the chip, and the chip readers would be able to see where that students' binder was? (No reference to Mr. Romneys' "binders of women" statement is intended here).
Celebration
(15,812 posts)Placing the chip very close to the thymus, which is really susceptible to damage. I wouldn't want my kid wearing one of these without some long term testing.
IDemo
(16,926 posts)There is no direct skin contact possible. Hundreds of thousands have worn similar devices for many years. I'm sure if there were evidence that they presented a health hazard, the alarm would have been sounded before now.
Celebration
(15,812 posts)Cancers can take decades to develop. I don't think anyone has looked at any statistics of kids wearing these things. Sure they are in plastic, but they still resonate. If they were inert, they wouldn't work.
I'm not saying they are dangerous. But I do feel that there is a risk that they are. For sure I wouldn't want to live near a cell phone tower.
Also I'm not sure of the utility of these things for kids anyway. They could just take them off if they wanted to. I really don't get it..............at all.
I would not want my kid wearing one of these.
IDemo
(16,926 posts)The radiative energy in an RFID system originates from the badge reader. The RFID circuitry on the card itself is mainly a very crude antenna that takes this energy, activates the chip and reflects a simple number or code to identify the wearer. You're getting much greater EMF from a number of other sources around you during the course of a day, cell phones for instance.
Tempest
(14,591 posts)It gives off such a low frequency that it would never interfere with the human body.
And I read your post about wearing one over a long period of time.
I've carried one every day for more than 15 years. No cancer. No cancer in any of my co-workers who have been wearing them for much longer.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,339 posts)I didn't know the rfid implants were dangerous.
Celebration
(15,812 posts)JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,339 posts)Scary stuff, especially that they "don't know" if this applies to humans.
Though we're somewhat related to dogs. (Mammals, Placentals) They're not talking about cancers in fish, for example.
I've seen articles stating it's a "good idea" to plant these in some seniors, esp alzheimers sufferers.
Tempest
(14,591 posts)Yeah, technology hasn't changed since then.
Stop with the theatrics.
Celebration
(15,812 posts)of any studies that are more recent? Certainly there should be some.
Tempest
(14,591 posts)You're the one claiming they're dangerous.
Find something more recent or retract your statement.
Celebration
(15,812 posts)I never claimed they were dangerous.
I would rather err on the side of caution until they are tested.
Tempest
(14,591 posts)You claimed they're not safe, the burden of proof is on you.
I've worn one for 15 years. No problems.
Hundreds of people I worked with worth them for longer. No problems.
Thousands of people have worn them for years at Boeing, no evidence of problems.
kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)when I still saw rats in my vet practice, that's literally all I ever saw rats for: tumors, tumors, and more tumors.
So this in and of itself means nothing.
Tempest
(14,591 posts)It's not like they are tested under real life circumstances.
They can't. Rat's lives aren't long enough.
Celebration
(15,812 posts)On the other hand, there are no long term studies in humans. I think the system in question with the school children is that these things are getting "pinged" many times a day, too. I am not saying there is an issue. I am saying they might be. Plus I can't figure out why these are necessary or even helpful.
Tempest
(14,591 posts)The article she cites are studies done almost 20 years ago. The technology has changed dramatically since then.
Celebration
(15,812 posts)I'd like to see them.
Tempest
(14,591 posts)That's just bad form.
You are the one claiming they are dangerous. The burden of proof is on you.
And 20 year old studies just isn't going to cut it.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)The basic technology has NOT changed, these tags are "energized" by some outside source, then data is transferred. In theory this was possible 50 years ago.
On the other hand, what energy is needed and what data can be transferred has changed, but that is more the result of minimizing of electronic parts. Thus it takes less energy to gather more data today, then it did 20 years ago.
As to the relationship between Cancer and these devices, the standard test for years has been to take two group of mice (mice know to be cancer prone) and give them everything the same EXCEPT for what is being tested, then you compare the cancer rates (These are called the "Control" and "Test" Groups in most such experiments). Since the Cancer rates in these Lab mice are well known, if Test group gets "Statistically" more Cancer then the Control Group, that is evidence of Cancer. This method of testing for Cancer has been used for Decades, it has been attacked but it is the basis of almost ALL of out findings of Cancer and causation.
Now, high doses of whatever is being tested is used, to speed up the research, but even this is subject to controls.
My point is, just because a test was done 20 or 100 years ago is unimportant, if it meets minimal scientific standards. That the test was done on equipment that required a lot more power actually makes the test more valid as to the underlying causation.
The only really valid objection to such tests is if the results are the results of the excess amount as opposed to the much lower amounts most people are exposed to. The problem with that objection is simple, you are saying that a certain level of risk is acceptable and unless it is clearly show that even low level exposure has high risks we should ignore the results that the substance causes cancer.
This is tied in with the concept that the body has ways to deal with Cancers and in the above tests that capability is NOT taken into consideration. The objection to this argument is simple, it is like saying ANY TEST is invalid except actual human tests in actual settings, an impossible way to test things.
Sorry, the tests were valid 20 years ago, they are valid today. You may not like them, but they are valid. You can attack them on the grounds that today's chips do NOT need the power of those older chips and given that situation the tests, based on much higher energy inputs then is required today are invalid as to today's chips. but that is NOT saying the studies themselves are invalid.
Side note: One of the reason for no subsequent tests is under the rules of medicine in the US and most of the World, it is the person supplying the product in question to do the tests. The producers of these chips, knowing the results of the earlier studies have refused to pay for any such tests. No one else will do the test, including the Governments. Thus they are no other tests. We have to use these 20 year old test for they are the best we have, to ignore them just because we don't like them proves nothing.
Tempest
(14,591 posts)No mention of the condenser and circuitry changes over the years which were designed to prevent bleeding of the signal, which would lower the risk.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)I wanted to avoid the use of the term "Radiation" for technically that is what is entering the body. When people hear the word "Radiation" they think in term of Nuclear radiation not that Sun-rays from the Sun also being "Radiation", Radiations is a form of energy (heat energy when you think of Sun-rays).
It appears the problem involved this radiation, radiation of radio beams that include enough energy power to "turn on" the chip for downloading. There is no way to reduce this form of "Radiation" via "condenser and circuitry changes" for it is the mechanism used to energize the chip. It has to "bleed" just to get to the chip. That is the energy that was tested NOT how that energy is used in the chip. Given that, these tests are valid even if 20 years old.
Now, the chips being used today do NOT need the energy chips needed 20 years ago, Thus the energy needed to energize these chips is way lower then what was needed 20 years ago. Thus radiation exposure is reduced (and again it is radiation from energy wavies not from nuclear radiation that I am discussing). These tiny burst of energy is what is in question, not the energy used inside the chips.
Now, most of these chips require you to put the chip near the energy source so the energy burst can reach the chip. I read the original article and I came away with the impression such nearness is NOT required for the use of such cards (i.e. can be energize by just walking pass a post with the required energy source). Now, that is an IMPRESSION, it is NOT stated in the actual article.
On the other hand such "Walk by Cards" is the next step in the use of such cards. It is technically possible to do so now, but I have NOT read of any such use. In a school it is easy to do, just set up two posts on each side of a hallway and record as the cards go by (The charge is constant, as a card goes through the area between the posts, such cards are given a charge and the move is recorded).
If that is the case (i.e. what I call "Walk by cards" then the "Radiation" will occur every time you walk by the posts, even if you have no ID Card to charge. Thus you have a radiation exposure (Radiation in the form of heat and energy as oppose to nuclear radiation) even if you do NOT use these cards.
I suspect others in this thread picked up the same impression I had, but did not understand it was an impression as oppose to a stated fact. I suspect this has caused some of the contention on this thread, people thinking in terms of cards that must be taken out and pass near a card reader (and thus any radiation is restricted to the card) and people thinking in terms of walking through a card reader and getting the radiation dose the card needs to have to be read. i.e. The difference between what is practiced today and what is possible today.
How it is practiced, it is hard to get anywhere near the radiation used in the tests of 20 years ago. On the other hand, as it can be done today (The Walk through system I mentioned above), you will need close to the energy needed 20 years ago for the present card reading system for such a "Walk through" system AND such "Radiation" will hit anyone going through such a system even if they have no card to read.
Thus in some ways this thread is a commentary on people's perception of how systems can and are used and that they are uncomfortable with the increasing ability of the Government to track you.
Response to Celebration (Reply #8)
yellowcanine This message was self-deleted by its author.
on point
(2,506 posts)Stupidstition is strong in this one
mwooldri
(10,303 posts)My former office required not only we have an id card with an RFID chip in it, but we had to have a fingerprint scan ALONG with that card - just to get into the building! Mind, this was a call center for a bank. Fortunately we didnt need fingerprints to get OUT.
Before that it used to be a magnetic strip card - slide the card through the reader to get in and out.
hatrack
(59,584 posts)Does that make Apple or Sprint or Samsung or Verizon Satan? Does that make her marked by The Beast?
God, Teh Stupid, it never fucking stops.
Tempest
(14,591 posts)As a parent, would you want your child running around without a cell phone these days?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Celebration
(15,812 posts)But cell phones are optional. Nobody is saying that she can't go to school without a cell phone. The school is saying that she can't attend the school without a chipped necklace.
It's really an issue of privacy. There should be an "opt out".
I don't really see it as the mark of the beast though, LOL.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)They did give her the option to opt-out and have a badge without the chip.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)and get rid of voter IDs for good hahaha
Celebration
(15,812 posts)Tempest
(14,591 posts)The mark is a tattoo, not a badge.
Celebration
(15,812 posts)she apparently isn't taking the word of the bible literally,
Xithras
(16,191 posts)My sons school requires that they wear ID's with embedded RFID. I've always taught my kids that the government has no right to track you, so to blindly submit to electronic surveillance would contradict everything I've taught them.
So we nuked it. They can still ask for, and view, the ID on campus, but it's not scannable any longer. The computers have no idea where he is...which is how it should be.
Tempest
(14,591 posts)Problem solved.
Celebration
(15,812 posts)But if they ping these don't they know that he is "missing"? I'm pretty sure in San Antonio the school would issue them a new one that worked.
Otherwise, very clever.
I can't believe how people here seem to embrace big brother. Strange.
Mark of the beast is a little over the top as a reason, but I am a huge privacy advocate.
Xithras
(16,191 posts)And they called me on it after the third, threatening to make me pay for any new replacements. I calmly explained that their policy requires that students take them home, but that I don't allow any sort of government issued tracking devices into my home, and that the school lacked the authority to mandate ANYTHING within my home. Any tracking devices brought into my home will be neutralized. They stated that they were school property and that I couldn't just "deface" them, so I told the principal that my son was perfectly willing to pick one up before school every morning, and drop it off every day after class, if the school wanted to protect its property. Of course, since he has both a 0-period AND is often at marching band practice until after 8pm, and since the school requires students to have their ID's while participating in both, they would need to keep the office staffed so that my son could turn it in and pick it up when leaving campus and entering campus.
The principal said he'd call me back, but I never heard another word from them. My son still has the same nuked ID. It's my understanding that a number of his friends have now done the same thing.
Most people either don't care or are easily intimidated into following along. Neither applies to me.
DallasNE
(7,402 posts)I fail to see where the school has come up with a compelling reason for this invasion of privacy. If religious grounds are allowed to stand here then it seems we are a Theocracy because I don't see where you can draw a line in the sand as religious grounds are set as absolute.
Igel
(35,300 posts)You have to have them to board the bus. You're scanned and the fact you're on the bus is recorded and your presence on the bus validated. Same for exiting the bus and entering the school. Then you're scanned when you exit the school and get on (and then off) the bus.
The reason?
1. Some cases of custody fights. One parent would nab the kid between home and the bus stop. The school wanted to show that the kidnapping occured when the school wasn't the kid's temporary guardian. It's also an entirely different matter to kidnap a kid from school property instead of from the street in front of his house.
2. Kids would get off the bus at school and, in the confusion, vanish for the day. The school could track him to being on school property. No need to search his neighborhood.
3. Kids would sneak on the wrong bus or sneak off at the wrong stop. The scanner tells the driver--who may be a sub or a temp or newly switched to that route--that it's okay for you to get off at that stop. Or not. And if the driver let you off anyway, the driver's butt is toast.
Downside: Kids have been known to swap IDs to fool the scanner and the bus driver didn't check the photos.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)a parent should. Wouldn't a cell phone accomplish the same service? I'm not a parent, but if I were, I would balk at this intrusion on what could be the entire family's privacy.
Paulie
(8,462 posts)Likely when you pass through the entrance. Sort of like those detectors at stores for loss prevention.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I mean a pedophile could use that information when they are using the bathrooms and there is no one else around. I dunno, my teachers did a pretty good job with an old fashioned desk chart in the classroom. If someone was missing from recess or lunch break, the teacher usually got an answer from a classmate who had seen them during the break and could tell her where the student was last, usually a bathroom or at their locker.
Great Caesars Ghost
(532 posts)LeftInTX
(25,288 posts)He does have a private school in San Antonio
bowens43
(16,064 posts)I agree that its a violation of her rights but her reasoning is idiotic.
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)In high school, friends and I occasionally skipped class or went someplace unauthorized. A few times we left the school grounds, went to get burgers or whatever just to get away from school for a while. Sometimes people would get away with this, other times people would be caught and disciplined.
Isn't occasionally getting away with being in the wrong place just part of growing up?
Teenagers are people too. If somebody had tried to put a tracking device on me in highschool I would have resisted.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)Problem solved!