Jubilant Palestinians mob Gaza streets

[oberliner]

Source: Ma'an News

GAZA CITY (Reuters) -- With gunshots, sweets and cries of victory, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip poured into the streets to celebrate a ceasefire deal on Wednesday which ended eight days of deadly fighting.

After being stuck at home for days for fear of Israeli airstrikes, tens of thousands of Palestinians crowded into cars and doubled up on motorcycles, waving flags and chanting for Hamas, Israel's main adversary and rulers of the Gaza Strip.

Women leaned over balconies ululating with joy as children stuffed four-abreast in the open trunks of cars clapped and sent out hoarse screams of "God is Great!".

"We feel like we've gotten our freedom back, our lives back. Thank God for Hamas, and thank God for the patience and strength of the Palestinian people in humbling Israel," said Mohammed Skeik, marching with a pack of fist-pumping friends.

Read more: http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=540873

[David__77]

1. I can see why they would be celebrating.

Indeed, this ceasefire is all benefit to the Palestinians and none for Israel.

[Ken Burch]

3. self-edit.

Last edited Wed Nov 21, 2012, 10:11 PM - Edit history (1)

misunderstood the poster's actual intent.

[Alamuti Lotus]

5. I am quite sure that is not what David__77 meant..

I believe the implication rather is that a ceasefire implies a defeat of the Israeli campaign; or at the least, an acceptance on their part that continued action will not achieve victory (however that is defined in their terms--I believe it might be accomplishing "killing four generations of a single family with one bomb", but can't be sure).

[oberliner]

8. A ceasefire does not imply "a defeat of the Israeli campaign"

In fact, it implies the opposite.

Of course, Hamas (and its supporters) will spin things otherwise.

[Alamuti Lotus]

10. how does it imply the opposite?

the ceasefire is an admission that present tactics will fail to achieve the desired objections of the campaign; how is that not a strategic defeat? Something of a pyrrhic victory (if even that) for the other side, to be sure, but the Palestinian resistance factions need only to remain standing as the smoke clears to claim something resembling success (slightly dubious concept in context).

[oberliner]

16. Israel has achieved its objectives and sees no benefit in continuing

I know that some folks seem to think that Israel's goal was to commit genocide or something along those lines, but the reality is that the goal was to stop rocket attacks from Gaza and to create a situation where they would not happen again in the future.

It appears that they seem satisfied they achieved those goals and thus agreed to a ceasefire.

If Israel didn't feel that way, they probably would go ahead with the ground invasion or whatever else they thought they needed to do. The fact that they aren't doing that implies that the desired outcome has already been achieved.

[Ken Burch]

25. You don't have to be a Hamas supporter to have opposed the Israeli campaign

It's a despicable lie to imply that the ONLY possible positions in this are "pro-Israel" or "pro-Hamas". There's also a pro-peace, pro-justice, pro-common humanity position.

[oberliner]

46. No kidding

Hamas is spinning it as a win for themselves and a defeat for Israel. Check out their statements.

[Ken Burch]

48. So they're spinning. Bibi's spinning too. Does it matter?

All governments and all factions in disputes spin.

[oberliner]

50. My only point is that a ceasefire is not a "defeat for the Israeli campaign"

That's what the other poster wrote - I don't agree.

[aquart]

54. But somehow that position is ALWAYS anti-Israel.

What's the pro-justice take on the "Israeli collaborator" whose body was joyously dragged through the streets of Gaza?

[Ken Burch]

57. It doesn't have to be.

It's only "anti-Israel" if you assume the status quo on security policy is actually GOOD for Israel(it isn't...it simply keeps the tensions building and sets up a far worse day of reckoning down the road unless the Palestinian people are given some sort of respite from the perpetually increasing repression and subjugation imposed by the Occupation in the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza).

Obviously, I oppose what was done to the collaborator. It's not as if bombing Gaza can stop things like that happening, since all the bombing can do is to increase Hamas' popularity. It's the "circle the wagons" thing...people always do that under attack, even if the wagon-master is a total bastard.

[mrf901]

19. ceasefire--> Israel ran out of targets . nt

nt

[Ken Burch]

28. self-edit.

TOTALLY misunderstood poster's intent...removed original post with full apologies.

[David__77]

36. I deny it.

This is a political and strategic defeat for the Israelí rightists.

[Ken Burch]

37. Thank you for the response then. I'll self-delete the post you are responding to out of respect.

We can only hope you are right...nothing could be worse for everyone in the region, INCLUDING Israel, than for Bibi to stay in power(and for Barak and his mini-party to win enough seats for him to stay on as defense-minister-for-life).

[Alamuti Lotus]

38. have you ever read his posts?

I don't mean to embarass him, but he's one of the best informed, most steadfastly principled leftist writers on this site.

[Ken Burch]

39. I've now edited the posts in which I misunderstood the poster's intent.

Apologies to all.

[Alamuti Lotus]

41. don't let your guard down; that kind of assumption can still be safely made about certain others

As an aside: if you thought Gilad Sharon's little tirade was cute, check out the recent remarks from the son of Rabbi Ovadia Yosef (yes, that guy--google him if you don't already know what a bold fresh piece of humanity he is). It was a beautiful piece of filth as well, which is what can be expected from his family line of kingmakers.

[Ken Burch]

43. I will...send me the link in a pm.

I don't want to contaminate the actual thread with it.

[FiveGoodMen]

4. I think you should elaborate on that

How is this bad for Israel?

[joshcryer]

13. I dunno, Iron Dome doesn't come cheap.

A slowdown or stoppage of rockets is pretty useful.

[Dubster]

2. Spam deleted by gkhouston (MIR Team)

[Andy Stanton]

6. I doubt if it will last

Hamas is continuing to fire rockets into Israel, despite the so-called truce.

I have no doubt Israel will strike back before too long.

It's obvious that Hamas wants thousands, if not tens of thousands, of its people to die "for the cause".

[aquart]

7. Well, the people in the street think Hamas is just great.

Of course, if you don't think Hamas is great, you are called an "Israeli collaborator" and they gleefully drag your corpse through the streets. Really impressive footage of that on ABC.

[oberliner]

9. This might have been a Hamas strategy all along

Goad Israel into attacking and then come out the other side as heroes.

Their leaders certainly seem to be feeding that narrative.

[joshcryer]

12. That is why all states go to war before elections. Bush is a prime example.

They must feed the fear of their populations.

It just so happens that Hamas suspiciously postponed their elections until 2013.

[Comrade Grumpy]

34. Really? Do you have information that the executed collaborators just didn't think Hamas was great?

Do you have information that the executed collaborators just didn't think Hamas was great? Or are you just making stuff up?

[glacierbay]

45. Do you have proof that the 6 executed,

not tried and convicted, but executed w/o trial, were collaboraters?
Or are you just making shit up?

[joshcryer]

11. Should be an easy reelection now.

[oberliner]

14. If they actually ever get around to holding elections

Hamas seems to be keen on the one-election only style of running things.

[Ken Burch]

26. I thought he was talking about the Israeli election...had it wrong.

While it would be better if there WERE new elections in all of Palestine(and Gaza)the lack of elections there had nothing to do with the Israeli government decision to attack.

As much as anything else, this was about re-electing Bibi and his pro-death coalition...something that is probably now a certainty. It already goes without saying that, after this, no party talking about social justice, workers' rights and peace will have a chance in hell in Israel this February. It's all rigged for Bibi and Barak and Lieberman now.

This war has taken all hopes of anything positive in Israeli politics off the table now, possibly for years to come.

[oberliner]

29. No he wasn't

He was talking about this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_general_election,_2013

[Ken Burch]

31. I doubt that.

That's an election that MIGHT happen. The Israelis ARE having an election for sure.

[oberliner]

33. You are wrong

Look elsewhere in the thread.

The poster also wrote: "It just so happens that Hamas suspiciously postponed their elections until 2013."

Clearly that is the election they are talking about.

[Ken Burch]

35. As the Wikipedia link pointed out, it hasn't even been agreed that THAT election will happen.

n/t

[joshcryer]

47. No, I was talking about Hamas' elections.

No state goes to war to "defend" themselves, it's all merely apparitions of "self-defense" to keep the people in line. I mentioned Bush because Iraq was used in a nationalist attempt to unite us against some common enemy. That is how almost all wars are fought.

Hamas now has an almost assured victory.

As far as Israel is concerned, Likud is polling downward. They got a bump from the attacks, but it is already dwindling.

[Ken Burch]

49. I stand corrected. Sorry.

Still, though, do we even know if there's going to BE a Palestinian election for sure? The Wikipedia entry oberliner posted didn't list an actual election date, if I read it corrected.

My points about the effect of the war on israeli electoral politics remain valid though. This almost certainly gives Bibi and his pro-death faction a sure landslide, which is going to be tragic if it happens.

[joshcryer]

51. They can't keep putting it off.

That would risk new factions trying to take their place, imo.

There won't be a landslide for Likud (Israel's right wing) but I do think it's possible that they get back the majority they lost in 2009. Note that their (very close) losses though in 2009 came after the Second Intifada, which was a protracted period where violence reigned. I hope the Israeli people do not fall for it again. They had the right idea in 2009.

Damn parliaments, though, and prime ministers. Presidents should be directly elected, imo.

[Ken Burch]

52. They tried directly electing the pm in Israel at one point...Didn't seem to help.

n/t.

[joshcryer]

53. Kadima had 1 more seat than Likud, but Yisrael sided with Netanyahu.

Had there been direct elections of the PM it's probable that Tzipi Livni would've been "President" or "Prime Minister" since the votes would've went to the other party leaders and Livini won. I do have hope, very little hope, that the majority of the liberals win like they did in 2009. But yeah.

As far as I'm concerned Hamas benefits from Likud / the right wing having power in Israel. Their tactics won't work with a conciliatory two-state supporting Israel government (which Livni supported).

[Ken Burch]

56. I've always thought that Hamas AND Likud benefited from each other.

At times, you kind of wonder if those two organizations have some kind of secret back-channel relationship going.

Hamas owes its electoral victory in the PA vote in significant measure to hard-line Likud policies.

Likud owes at least two election wins to coordinated Hamas bombings DURING the run-up to polling day.

[joshcryer]

58. Completely agree.

I am even open to such a conspiracy (though I'm not sure it exists, it absolutely, 100% would not surprise me). They're two sides of the same fucking coin.

(And as I said, one can only hope that the Israeli population votes Likud out. We'll see.)

[Ken Burch]

59. The only hope is for Labor and Meretz to get as many seats as possible

Kadima's headed for the boneyard this time(if they wins more than three seats they'll be amazingly lucky), we can still hope that Barak's mini-party falls below the threshold(is there ANY reason that guy should really get to be defense minister-for-life?)and that Yesh Atid doesn't do the stupid thing and throw in with Bibi.

The more seats Labor, Meretz and Yesh win, the greater the likelihood that the Shas party, which seems to go back and forth between right-wing and non-right wing governments, will throw in with the non-right wing this time.

[Ash_F]

15. Link down, alt link here:

http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/11/21/palestinians-israel-ceasefire-gaza-idINDEE8AK0G220121121

I just hope things calm down.

[oberliner]

17. Actually the whole site appears to be down

Very odd.

[Ash_F]

18. Never heard of Ma'an News

The primary source for an article is better anyway.

[oberliner]

20. Are you serious?

You've never heard of Ma'an News?

It's one of the only Palestinian news sources available in English online.

What Palestinian news sources do you use?


Edit to Add: The site, the link, and the story are back up.

[Purveyor]

27. There you go with your 'news sources' again..interesting indeed since our earlier exchange. See link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1134&pid=23022

[oberliner]

30. Just surprised that the poster never heard of Ma'an News

I thought it was very widely known among those who follow I/P issues.

[Purveyor]

40. But in 'breaking news'...even I wouldn't go there. {{{chuckle}}} eom

[Ash_F]

55. Typically I read Western sources

I'll check it out, but this particular article was written by Reuters anyway.

By the way, it looks like they went out of their way to make it sound like Palestinians are really happy about this whole ordeal. Nearly 200 people were killed and they really haven't gained much as far as human rights go. I bet many(most?) are not so ecstatic/arrogant.

[TomClash]

21. Israel has achieved it's objective

Five times as many civilian dead as have died in all Hamas rocket attacks since 2004. Israel's little pogrom.

The cease fire will hold for a spell and it will start all over again.

[oberliner]

23. Very well-crafted post

Managed to work in "pogrom" quite effectively.

Good thing you used 2004 as your starting point, since there were hundreds of Israeli civilians killed by Palestinian attacks in the three years prior.

Were those pogroms too or what?

[Purveyor]

44. Oh the 'crafty one' you... LOL Carry on. eom

[ReRe]

22. I celebrate for boths sides...

...in that the needless killing of human beings has stopped. According to this article, the Palestinians are much like the Republicon' base in this country. I only wish it was a permanent truce.

[oberliner]

24. I share your hope for a permanent truce

Even better would be a comprehensive peace agreement.

[rucky]

32. Celebrating a cease fire by shooting guns into the air.

The real winner is irony.

[Ishoutandscream2]

42. No shit. First thing that struck me as well

I will never try to understand that part of the world. It's beyond me.

[mrf901]

60. a rather low threshold for jubilance

the gulag is not being bombed.
how wonderful!

[oberliner]

61. Gulag?

You think Gaza is a Gulag?

[KimonoGirl]

62. Gaza is a hell hole. Do you deny that?

It's a prison. A modern day concentration camp. Only this time, the persecutors aren't gasing their victims, just dropping bombs from the sky. And when they're too bored of that, after dropping those helpful leaflets asking politely that Palestinians should evacuate an area they're planning a night assault using chemical weapons of mass destruction... Why are we at all surprised?

What joy to look forward to when Israel gets bored again and want to revert to their favourite past time of shooting fish in barrel, only substituting those fish with women and children.

[oberliner]

63. You think Gaza is a "hell hole" and a "modern day concentration camp" ?

You honestly, seriously believe the things you have typed here?

[Mosby]

64. jury results

At Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:21 AM you sent an alert on the following post:

Gaza is a hell hole. Do you deny that?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=314723

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

YOUR COMMENTS:

This 3 post poster is trolling - "they're planning a night assault using chemical weapons of mass destruction" is hateful, dishonest bullshit.

Comparing Gaza to a concentration camp AND saying that Israelis "favorite past time" is killing women and children is antisemitic bigotry.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri Nov 23, 2012, 01:29 AM, and voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: Yes, it is, but let's see if it is once again deemed acceptable. I vote "NO!"
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Horseshit alert. Hi Oberliner!
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Answer it in the thread, then.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: Chemical weapons of mass destruction from Israel? A bit of a stretch...although I appreciate the situation on both sides of this dispute I think the poster is out of line here.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you.

[oberliner]

66. Wow

Interesting insights here.

[leftynyc]

65. Posts like this one

are the reason no really serious Democrat ever cites this place to visit. It's an embarrassment to the left to write something so devoid of history and an insult to anyone who truly was in a concentration camp. Nauseating.

[oberliner]

67. Is it a majority or minority opinion here?

Hard to tell sometimes.

[hrmjustin]

68. Welcome to DU!